!!!FUCKING READ THIS FIRST!!!

And you have no idea how many 1 marine with a flamethrower could kill

A googolplex marines could kill a googolplex ants a second for a googolplex years and it still wouldn't be anywhere close to killing the fucking ants. that wouldn't even be close to killing a very small fraction of the ants.

a more interesting question is: how long would you last against 5 year old children that have been brainwashed to feel no fear, pain, mercy, pity, remorse, and that have been trained since birth to be assassins - but have NO WEAPONS, and all you have received is one day's worth of hand to hand combat training. The children come at you 1 every 20 seconds. You don't have weapons - but you can use the floor, the walls and the children (the ones you have already dispatched in theory) against your attackers.

I think I would last about 1hr. Eventually my arms/legs would tire and it would just take about 2 kids at the same time to kill me.

If we presume each ant is the volume of Planck's length cubed (the smallest possible discrete unit of volume, hilariously smaller than even the smallest of subatomic particles) and you take Graham's number of ants, the OBSERVABLE UNIVERSE is NOT ENOUGH to contain them.

To put it into perspective:
The horde of ants are a few googolplex times larger than a sphere with a diameter of 93 BILLION light-years.

The two sides are not fighting on a flat plane. They are in a universe of ants, packed denser than degenerate neutron matter, with mass concentration greater than the singularity at the heart of the supermassive black holes contained at the center of our galaxy.

The flamethrowers of the marines will not even work, because the space- and time dilation between the fuel tank and the nozzle means it takes trillions of years for the fuel to travel the length of the weapon.

An hour = 180 children at once
How the fuck would you even survive an hour if you only take out 2 of them?

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i don't think you can have planck length cubed because there'd have to be things that made up that cube and each point of the cube would be too small to exist.

who said anything about 180 children at once. I am saying I could kill children in under 20 seconds for 1hr but by then would be so tired, I would fail to do so, and therefore a second simultaneous child would come at me at which point I would be overwhelmed and killed.

>I am saying I could kill children in under 20 seconds for 1hr
1 hour is a really long time to fight. You don't realize it untill your in the middle of real fight but that is extremely tiring. A UFC fighter throwing 1 punch every 20 seconds could maybe last 40 minutes. Longest i ever fought was 20 minutes and i threw up afterward from physical exhaustion.

if you're going to kill all those children, you better be planning to eat them. waste not, want not.

Can any user explain graham's number?

You can, but it's about the size of 10 ^-20 of a proton's radius. At that size, anything that has mass instantly collapsed into a micro-singularity.

This is the realm of the quantum foam, where energy spontaneously becomes matter, and instantly annihilates back again.

We actually know that if you take a piece of space with a volume of planck lenght cubed, it cannot have both zero energy and mass. The very fabric of space-time ripples and causes energy fluctuations.

This is what the physicist Laurence Krauss speaks of when he talks of the universe 'coming from nothing': The universe has a net energy of zero, we are simply the runaway result of space-time spontaneously generating an equal set of positive and negative energy gradients that for some reason didn't collapse instantly.

you do realize the fight is to neutralize a 5 year old child in 20 seconds. It is not comparable to being in a fight with another adult.

Instead of arguing bullshit why don't you just read the proposition, understand it, and make your claim to how long you would last.

Im talking about moving around and hitting somthing hard at least twice every 20 seconds. Here's a test for you. Put on a timer and do five minutes of jumping jacks, just five minutes no stopping, and tell me you could do that for an hour.

But they're ninja assassin 5 year olds....
I think 20 ish minutes is a realistic estimated amount of time, for a grown ass man to survive

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It's very hard to come up with any scenario involving a number of ants equal to graham's number are on one side and that side does not win.

I think your scenario gets most of the way there. You have it taking place on an infinite plane instead of inside our own universe, which is good because there isn't enough room in our own universe to fit a number of ants equal to graham's number.

Next, you have removed most maintenance requirements for the Marines, which is good, because the amount of time it would take to accomplish any task involving a number of ants equal to graham's number is an absurdly long amount of time. The amount of time the universe will exist before it succumbs to heat death is nothing compared to the amount of time this task will take.

But I think you've failed to consider problems that spring up due to the absurd length of this experiment. For one, you've not specified the density of either group, nor have you stipulated that neither group will be allowed to reach such a density that its combined gravity could collapse the group into a star or black hole. This is a possibility when dealing with such tremendously large amounts of matter.

Assuming you rule our that possibility, yes I think the Marines might win, given tens of thousands of universe-lifespans worth of time.

go to the right

You know how we write numbers using symbols.

Okay, it takes 1 symbol to write a number between 0 and 9.
It takes 3 symbols to write a number between 0 and 999.
We have multiplied the amount of symbols needed by 3, and yet made it possible to write a number 100 times greater.

Now, expand this principle.
There are between 10^78 to 10^82 atoms in the universe.
That's a 1, followed by somewhere between 78 to 82 zeroes. Or 1 Trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion..... particles.

Presume you had a pen that could write a single symbol on each of those atoms.
You would need three atoms to write any number up to 999.

If you could do that, and used every particle, you would still need a few trillion universes to write all the symbols for grahams number.

A computer writing a googolplex digits each second would need longer than the lifetime of the universe to print out even a fraction of a fraction of that number.

This is why you will never see Graham's Number as anything other than obscure scientific notation that doesn't even use exponents, because literally the entire universe doesn't contain enough matter or energy to complete that task.

waitbutwhy.com/2014/11/1000000-grahams-number.html
You vastly underestimate Graham's number. Each single marine would have to kill a number of ants greater than the number of atoms in our universe. If the wave of ants is continuous, I don't think a flamethrower is going to deal with it. It'll just be a slow, steady growth of tiny charred ant corpses that they'll climb over until the marines eventually drown in ants.

Thank u user

First, I fully understand that Graham's number is ridiculously larger than a googolplex. But that doesn't matter.

Marines:
>they are humans: intelligent, resourceful, cooperative on a higher level
>marines require a minimum of ~85 IQ
>but officers are generally much higher
>and top ranks can be 150+
>they can set up a defensive perimeter to start
>while the interior marines re-purpose flamethrowers and fuel into better defenses
>with the eventual goal if an impenetrable automated defenses
>automated robots that kill any ants that get too close
>and recycle ant corpses for trace minerals
>this basically enables the marines to live in a society of nearly infinite resources
>they can better themselves
>become smarter, with their infinite lifespan
>make better ant killing weapons
>give each other brojobs
>if any marine gets out of hand...
>just toss him into the 'and wastes'
>problem solved
>and just as a safeguard, encapsulate one marine in a mile of steel
>with defenses
>and heavy ant-filtering ventilation
>so the ants could not win in the event of a self-imposed marine apocalype.

It may take a nearly infinite amount of time, but the ants are just ants. They are doomed.

smol brain thinking here.

marines win no doubt

the average worker ant lives for a few weeks tops. all the marines have to do is stay alive for a few weeks and time will kill all the ants

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Pretty sure you could snap a toddlers neck without too much effort.

wat would the theoretical fraction mathematicly be googolplex/grahams number or is it impossible to turn it into a single unit fraction?

It takes over 1200 footpounds of torque to "snap" a neck. You could literally tie somebody hair to a car wheel and drive off and not accomplish that feat. This isnt the movies son.

googolplex is 10^100

grahm's number is crzy big
youtu.be/GuigptwlVHo

based

Let's say you fill every square inch of the known universe with atoms
Then you turn every atom into a googleplex of marines
Then you you make a googleplex of universes filled with the same number of marines

Graham's number is so much bigger you'd never even notice such an infinitesimally tiny number of marines ever existed

The question was how much torque it takes to snap a toddler's neck
Don't bother to post again until you have experimental evidence

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You don't understand how big Graham's number is

>you would still need a few trillion universes to write all the symbols for grahams number.
You're vastly underestimating the size of Graham's number

waitbutwhy.com/2014/11/1000000-grahams-number.html does a decent job.

Long story short, writing Graham's number requires a special kind of notation called Knuth’s up-arrow notation. It starts out kind of like exponentiation, in so much as 34 = 81, 23 = 8, etc.
Then you look at power towers. Normally when you have a bunch of exponents, you just multiply them all together. For this notation, 3^3^3 is not 3^9, it's 3^(3^3) = 3^27. So now we can write ab, which is a(a(a(...a)) with b a's.
In example, 33 is 3(33)=327 which is around 7,600,000,000,000.
So 33 is 27. 33 is 7.6 trillion. 3 is 3(3(33)) = 3(37.6 trillion). This winds up being a power tower of 3's that is insanely long. It is 3 to the power of 3 to the power of 3 7.6 trillion times. If each 3 was written 2cm high, it would stretch from Earth to the sun.
A googolplex, for comparison, is 10^10^10^2.
So once you're comfortable with Knuth's up-arrow notation, you can make this thing g1. g1 is 33. When you get this MASSIVE number, you find g2 by taking 3...3, where there are g1 's between the 3's. This is already insane. You then make g3 by taking 3...3 with g2 's, and keep doing this until you get to g64. g64 is Graham's number.
With up arrow notation, the growth comes from the number of arrows, not the initial inputs. 33 is a 2 digit number. 33 is a 13 digit number. 33 is a 3.6 trillion digit number. 33 is already laughably large.
The problem with trying to explain Graham's number is that it feels a lot like trying to explain infinity. The link at the beginning does a great job though, if you have a little time to read.

I do, it just doesn't matter. Ants have a limited speed, so they can never overwhelm the defenses of the marines.

I'm basing my answer on a previous (more in depth) rule set that centralizes the marine location. Literally the only situation where the ants win is if the ants and marines are exactly evenly distributed. In that case, the marines will never see each other, and will be individually overtaken by ants. But even a random distribution would result in pockets of marines large enough to form impenetrable defenses.

>muh number is so big that I don't even need to think about the issue

No, you don't even begin to fathom how large Graham's number is.

Even if the marines managed to kill every ant that approached, and forge the ash of their corpses into barriers first feet, then miles, then light years across, and then create grand homosex civilizations in those bubbles that last for aeons, it still wouldn't matter. Because those bubbles are so tiny compared to the sea of ants that surround them, that they effectively don't exist. Even with a googplex of universes and a Planck's-sized stylus, you can't write enough to zeroes to represent a fraction that small.

Yeah, it is that big.

>googolplex is 10^100
No. That is a googol. A googolplex is 10^googol, or 10^(10^100). A googol is larger than the number of atoms in the observable universe. A googolplex is larger than the total number of ways that it is possible to arrange every single elementary particle in the observable universe. So a googolplex is really fucking big.

But not when compared to Graham's number. Still, ants are stupid, move slow, have no tactics, and are up against a military organization of tremendous size. The marines can take some losses, set up defenses, and eventually outlast an infinite onslaught of ants.

Think of it this way: if you have a very slow moving stream of hard water, and an island made of stone in the middle, that stream will never erode the island. The island accumulates mineral deposits at a faster rate than the water could erode the stone, even if the water runs forever. This is the situation that results from OP, except given an infinite amount of time, the ants will eventually be beaten.

Marines will win.

> if you have a very slow moving stream of hard water, and an island made of stone in the middle, that stream will never erode the island.

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Yes, but: 1. There is an infinite amount of time, and 2. The ants can never win in any assault, no matter how long they have or how many ants there are. The huge homocivilization will endure, and after an unfathomably long amount of time, the ants will all die.

>: if you have a very slow moving stream of hard water, and an island made of stone in the middle, that stream will never erode the island
You just denied the foundations of geology.

That's what she said...?

That assumes that perfect conditions and no failures, ever. Which is absurd. One failure in the almost infinite aeons that make trillions and googleplexes of years utterly irrelevant in their insignificant brevity, and the ants win.

>water seeps through ground
>dissolving softer stone susceptible to pH erosion
>becoming hard water
>seeps into caves
>flows slowly over harder stone
>builds up calcium deposits
>does not erode stone at all
You would need sufficiently fast moving water to erode the stone. But it's just small trickles, that's it. This happens, l2geology. Besides, it's an analogy, so stop being such a faggot.

>not understanding exponential function

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It's a terrible analogy, because now you're arguing for a rock cycle, a situation of continual replenishment.

The ants aren't hard water, they don't replenish the marines, no matter how many ants each marine stuffs up his butt.

>That assumes that perfect conditions and no failures, ever.
There might be, at first. But eventually, there will not be. The bigger the machine is, the less likely failures become critical. once it's all automated and computerized, there will be no human error. The machine errors would require corrections, but those corrections would be so small that they would be unnoticeable.

Once you have self-replicating machines, with independent but linked processing, and an unlimited supply of materials (ants) and fuel, the defense system will only grow in size, ability, and fail_safes. Besides, there is always that one marine locked up tight in a mile of steel. He can't kill himself, and can never be reached by ants, so the automated defenses will eventually kill off the ants while there is a lone marine going increasingly insane in solitary.

>not even considering the parameters of the hypothetical before dismissing it

I did. I even explained how much time that many soldier killing a certain amount of ants would take. Then I started how that wouldn't even come close to killing all the ants.

>It's a terrible analogy, because now you're arguing for a rock cycle, a situation of continual replenishment.
I am.
>they don't replenish the marines
They do. Ant bodies have trace amounts of minerals. They can be refined into usable materials with the unlimited fuel in Ant Forges™, which can then be turned into defenses. And once the defenses are fully automated, all killed ants just get reforged into new defenses by self-replicating machines.

So the analogy is very similar. Which is why I used it. The ants can never erode the marines, but the marines can used the ant bodies to get stronger.

Ant will win pretty fast. if marines are only armed with flame throwers and melee weapons, they will lose no matter what.

Let's say you're pushing some sand away with a pressure washer. obviously the sand blows away from you. Now let's say you're on a beach with a pressure washer, all the Sand around you get blown away.

Let's say now the sand is 5 feet tall or neck level and falls on you. you can blow away the sand that's instantly is in front of you but NOT the sand behind them.

basically each ant acts like a shield for the ant behind it. when that shield burns up, then you have another ant shield. repeat this infinitely and eventually, the ant shield falls on top of the marine. Marine loses.

>>Neither team have to eat, sleep, drink, procreate, etc

This bit here is the key. If we're starting with and only given a googleplex of marines and a grahams number of ants all the maries have to do is chill and wait for the ants to die of old age. If either side is ever given reinforcements of any kind it changes the question. Therefor if Graham's number is as mindnumbingly massive as everyone suggests then time itself is many times more deadly to the ants than all of the marines.

Absolutely not! A googolplex is so small compared to grahams number that it might as well be 0.

>hur
>dur
>I even explained how much time that many soldier killing a certain amount of ants would take.
>how much time
>Then I started how that wouldn't even come close to killing all the ants.
>even though there is infinite time available
Looks like you don't know how much larger infinity is than Graham's number. Just so you understand, up arrow notation could never capture how unfathomably large infinity is. So if the marines have an infinite amount of time to kill ants, find better ways to kill ants, and give each other brojobs while they are not killing ants, they will eventually win.

There are LIMITED ants and UNLIMITED time. As long as the marines could defend against the ant assault indefinitely, they would win. After a really fucking ridiculously long time.

this genuinely made me laugh
gg

You still don't grasp Graham's number.

How many sigmas of uptime does this nearly perfect machine the marines build need to destroy all the ants? There's no way to build a machine with (1-1/Graham's number) precision. Just random fluctuations at the quantum level would defeat it.

And you're also assuming incredible leaps in technology, including matter transmutation to convert all those ants into useful substances, and an infinite power supply. But that's not something that just happens. It requires time, and change. That means the ants also change. And even without procreation and the standard mechanisms of evolution, the sheer number of ants means that just by random happenstance whether mutations induced by cosmic radiation, brownian motion, or quantum fluctuations again, an inconceivably large number of them will become super geniuses in the time it takes for a single marine to pick his own ass. It's absurdly, comically unlikely, of course. But Graham's number is that big.

grahams number is so big that every single marine would be crushed from inside and outside by ants. Imagine your lungs, anus, throat, nostrils etc are packed with ants. How effective a marine are you gonna be?

Okay, explain how marines in a flat plain can turn ants into a self-sustaining machine of destruction. I'll wait.

But they have magic flamethrowers

Are these flamethrowers built into their anuses?
>Having known a few marines, I assume the answer is Yes

>Marines have flamethrowers and infinite fuel.

Marines win. Infinite fuel is enough to kill whatever number of anything.

You're stupid, but that raises an interesting point. If there's infinite fuel, then that means there is more fuel than ants and marines. So much more that, that both ants and marines together effectively add up to 0.

Which means that civilizations, universes even, would be born and die in the fuel of such scope and majesty, that ants or marines do is utterly irrelevant.

It's a trick question. It's not whether the ants or marines win, at all. They don't. The fuel wins.

>How many sigmas of uptime does this nearly perfect machine the marines build need to destroy all the ants?
The machine gets bigger, more efficient, and flawless as time goes on. And only needs to handle a non-variable amount of ants at any given time.

>There's no way to build a machine with (1-1/Graham's number) precision.
It doesn't need to be that precise. Just precise enough to handle the event horizon of ants (Ant Horizon™?), which is limited, and growing at a manageable pace. Or maybe not growing at all... it doesn't need to grow unless it is sustainable or beneficial to do so.

>incredible leaps in technology
Infinite time. A line of flame throwers going 100% of the time until the centralized marines develop technology that we're realistically not far from now.

>infinite power supply
unlimited flamethrower fuel...

>It requires time, and change.
There's no shortage of either

>That means the ants also change
They are biologically limited. They cannot procreate, and therefore cannot evolve. Both sides will simply maximize their intelligence and experience, giving the marines a huge advantage.

>super genius ants
Go fuck right off with that nonsense. Besides, if you give the ants a googolplex-level genius, the marines are going to end up with a Graham's number genius. gg.

>Graham's number is that big.
And it still doesn't matter. Infinite time > Graham's number ants

>not reading the previous posts....

ok whatever you say nibba way to read into it. Maybe the infinite fuel is the very universe, the stars, galaxies etc.

neither have to procreate, but the ants can.
ants all the time.

>magic machines
>quantum fluctuations aren't a thing
You completely fail to understand the concept. I clearly addressed why it makes sense. Go back, reread it, and feel stupid. Or not, and just stay stupid.

>defense perimeter of flamethrowers
>central marines spend a billion years researching:
>Ant Materials science
>Automation
>Self-replicating machines
>Computing
>etc.
>create self replicating machines that ants cannot harm
>machines kill ants
>take corpses to flamethrower-fueled Ant Forges™
>harvest trace minerals
>make enough machines to kill ants indefinitely
>all powered by infinite flamethrower fuel (per OP's stipulation)
>marines retire from military life
>brojobs g'lore
>???
>profit

>quantum fluctuations
>assuming an infinite plane from OP's faggoty mind follows the laws of our universe

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If the marines can learn and adapt in that stretch in time, that means change in possible. And for every billion years the marines have, the ants effectively have a (Graham's number/googleplex) number of years. Even without sexual reproduction, simple random effects like quantum fluctuations would be enough to turn so many googleplexes of ants into super genius that the marines couldn't count them. Or just because of random behavior the ants would act in ways indistinguishable from being super geniuses.

Ants win.

If it doesn't follow the rules of the universe except where specified otherwise, then we have no way to answer the question because there's no way of knowing what rules apply.

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No, there will be no super genius ants. Their brain structure and size are simply not capable of this, regardless of all other inputs. They'd need to become much larger, with larger brains. Which will never happen-- even if the outside stimuli could create that situation, they don't eat, and have nothing to eat, to gain the mass necessary for that change.

The rules of this universe are simple: a flat, infinite plane, with no geographic features. OP set this up specifically so that the universe does not impose any penalties or favors on either side. So quantum fluctuations are not likely part of OP's plan.

>doesn't understand the probabilistic nature of the universe
Do some basic reading on the Standard Theory. You really have a poor concept of what's possible.

And even we ignore particles being created out of nowhere (a very unlikely circumstance that I'm using purely to illustrate how Graham's number turns the unlikely into the effectively certain), your argument includes the marines using the ants for raw materials. The ants can do the same.

If one googolplex of men flamethrowered a perfect protective dome, they would still lose. Even with infinite time and ammo, it would only be a relatively short time before the quantity of incomplete combustion products literally buried the soldiers and made their weapons useless. Do you know how much soot results from an ant being incinerated? Do you know how much that is multiplied by Graham's number? It's more than a googolplex. It's more than a googolplex (in TONS) of product that WILL NOT BURN.

Sorry dude but there becomes a point that it doesn't matter what your firepower is, when you are so outnumbered you will die under the avalanche of your enemy's bodies.

No, the rules of the universe can't be that simple. Because it's not a platonic realm where only an infinitely flat plane with no features exists. There are also ants, and marines, and weapons, all of which imply chemicals, and atoms, and quantum waves. If you're arguing they do not, then you need to create another standard theory that accounts for the existence of ants and marines, and explain it in sufficient detail. But since you're not the Newton, Einstein, and every other thinker put together of a theoretical new world operating under entirely different physical laws, you can't. We have to go by the only assumption that makes any sense at all: That the rules of the physical universe we're familiar with apply, except when otherwise stated.

You don't know what quantum fluctuations are, do you?

starting formation? (this is by far the most important one)
number of flame throwers?
how is the fuel stored? (for refueling)
OP is a fag as usual

I just jumped it to say that while I admire your creative thought, you can't just give the humans a blank check. We're talking an infinitude of infinities in both space, time, mass, and volume. If the Humans get Ant Forges™, and places of rest, and all that then the Ants, especially EVERYWHERE other than where there are marines, after some trillions of years or a fraction of that, would be building stargates and teleporting tiny bombs directly into the Human's brains or whatever the hell it is.

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>starting formation? (this is by far the most important one)
They're marines, so a giant circle jerk.
>number of flame throwers?
One per asshole.
>how is the fuel stored? (for refueling)
In their capacious anal cavities.
>OP is a fag as usual
Well duh.

That's the point I've been making. The another user wants two sets of rules, and doesn't really grasp how big Graham's number is.

>Somewhere far away on the Klackon Homeworld of Kholdan, scientists discover that they are not alone in the universe and that in practically another universe away, there's been a war raging since time immemorial against their primitive common ancestor and some alien race "Marines"

>The Armadas are sent through the stargates to find a lovecraftian world of a flat plane where a war has raged since the dawn of time

Klackon Captian: Wait, that's it?

Beam a few singularity pulse torpedoes into their command centers.

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Although this supports my general understanding of life. All evidence speakes against this.
Especialy that Delta E * Delta t=h you fucking moron. The very principle you want to use to back up your idiotic claim.
If you cant read that and I assume you cant. It means that energy conservation can be ignored for a period of time. But multiplying the energy which is to much by the time the classicly forbidden energy state lives is h.
>b-but its equals or greater!!!
because the formula acctually describes measurement.
In the original publication of Heisenberg he used "~" instead of equals.

What are you talking about? They never made up equations in Breaking Bad idiot

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>starting formation? (this is by far the most important one)
does not matter. at these numbers, the marines can be approximated as a single dot
we can also discard marine movement (whats the point? they appear stationary when you look at the whole picture)
>number of flame throwers?
does not matter. the marines can only carry so many, so can be approximated at some multiple of the number of marines
>how is the fuel stored? (for refueling)
does not matter. the we can assume it appears out of thin air in their flamethrowsers, the result does not change

>Infinite time > Graham's number
there is an amount of mass moving towards the marines that WILL crush them at some point. it doesnt matter how long it takes, because it does happen before the last ant dies so the ants win anyway.

however
>you math faggot
if the flamethrowers are infinite and the marines are killing the ants at this rate. how will the ants brake through?

See

Grahm's number might be larger than a googolplex, but infinite is larger than Graham's number.
Just put the marines in a circle and have them constantly fire their flamethrowers outwards.
They've got infinite fuel and an infinite amount of time.

The only valid counter to this argument is what would happen to the ants piling up.
I don't know, but I would presume they'd get completely incinerated to dust rather than a stackable husk.
((I'm already assuming the marines have gas masks for the smoke since they've got flamethrowers))

see

Irrelevant if the marines form a circle and face their flamethrowers outwards and just infinitely create a flamecircle around them. The ants can't get through that circle.

This will result in a stalemate until marines or ants die of old age. Obviously ants will go first if that's the case.

even with your "ants magically disappear" trick.. at some point the mass outside the flamethrower reach is too much and gravity hands the win to the ants.

You do know that ants make tunnels underground right? So unless they're shooting the flamethrowers at their own feet their fucked.

Absolutely retarded seriously the most retarded shit i have ever heard kys

You guys are not understanding the magnitude of graham's number. With those kinds of numbers, the ants could assault a perfect marine formation until the RESIDUE from the flame thrower fuel layers upon itself and eventually encircles the marines. They can't break formation to clear it and even if they push some of it back with the flame throwers, it will eventually be piled high enough in all directions that this is impossible. Flame thrower's can not safely shoot up, so when the pile of fuel residue reaches above a certain angle the marines will be fucked.

This one goes to the ants easily.

Sure, that works. For how long? A week? a light dusting of ant powder on everything, no worries right?

>a month later
ant carapace in every breath you take, the pile around the marines is approximately 20 meters out (or whatever the effective range of the flamethrowers) and at this point several meters thick

>1 year later

ant parts in everything, like being in the middle of a desert of black sand, they now have to angle the flamethrowers to the sky because the tower of ants is meters tall.

>~5 years later

>click clack
>click clack

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So Graham's Number is pretty much just shitposting in scientific form right?

If the Marines stand in a line walking backwards while firing continuously against the ants who are approaching orderly, then eventually they will win, if they don't go insane of course. The key is to clear the battlefield conditions continuously until it ends.

If the ants are attacking in any way but a line formation or funneled, such as circular or swarming, then it'll be over in a year at most with the ants winning.

This.

>quantum fluctuations
I don't know... you could even say I'm uncertain...
Yes, I'm familiar with the foamy principles of quantum fluctuations.

What about a googolplexian number of Marines

>way of knowing what rules apply
>probabilistic nature of the universe
>No, the rules of the universe can't be that simple.

It's a hypothetical. You reduce the variables to remove noise. The more variables there are, the less meaning there is in the experiment. Keep it simple, stupid.

>products literally buried the soldiers
No, ants move slow. They could mobilize their robot army to repurpose and remove waste well before this became a problem. Most of the ant carcasses would vaporize when burnt.

Alright retards since you didn't read the first post
>INFINITE, FEATURELESS PLANE
>NO RESOURCES BESIDES FLAMETHROWERS AND FUEL FOR MARINES TO USE
>THAT MEANS NO NEW INVENTIONS

>starting formation? (this is by far the most important one)
Trips guy gets it. If there is an regular distribution of marines and ants, all the marines are alone and die. If the marines are centralized, as anons have already stated thoroughly, they can defend indefinitely. If distribution is randomized, the chances of mounting a defense are high.

Ants have a lifespan of a few months (worker ants, which we have to assume they are). You just have to keep up the fight for so long and the rest will fall.

No, you reduce the variables to explain simple concepts. This isn't an perfectly spherical cow pointing to a simple answer, it's a thought experiment intended to provoke different ways of approaching the problem. KISS neither makes sense, nor is it desired.

Marines wouId go insane after a few years and turn on each other, how Iong do you think the mind can Iast with that pressure?

Attached: Gian_Luigi_Ferri.jpg (187x244, 15K)

They are situated like 2 armies on a field.

>you can't just give the humans a blank check
Yeah, you can. There are currently 100 trillion ants to humans, but we still never die from ants unless it's purposeful or absolute idiocy. Ants will never win in direct conflict with humans, even with possible evolution, etc.

I'm not giving the marines anything that they are not already capable of doing. People create all sorts of ways of efficiently wiping out life. Marines, with a sole purpose of doing this to ants, with unlimited time, will do this with no problem.

Hell, if they can simply convert ant bodies to calcium carbonate, all they need to do is draw a fucking chalk line around their giant camp. The ants wont cross it. Because they're stupid fucking ants.

>there is an amount of mass moving towards the marines that WILL crush them at some point
ANTS ARE JUST ANTS. They will not morph into bulldozers. They will not be able to exert the force you are thinking about onto the marines. They will only crawl on each other to a certain degree without killing each other. So if you are right in your reasoning, 90% of the ants will kill each other before getting within a googolplex of our known universes away from the marines.

The marines will only deal with a finite number of ants at any given time. And they will have an infinite amount of time with which to do so. It's not just a win, it's an easy win.

essentially, in terms of human comprehension, it may as well be infinite
i know technically it isn't, but it may as well be
in the OPs example, the ants would win because of this, even compared to a googolplex, the amount of ants may as well be never ending

>You guys are not understanding the magnitude of graham's number.
>hur
>dur
>muh number
>so I can just ignore everything else
Just stop, it's a tired argument and it's been soundly defeated more than once.

>still doesn't get the point of this, or any hypothetical situation
Damn, you're boring.

They could move the circle of men with flamethrowers as a unit and they would outrun the soot buildup.

Yep, it basically sets all other numbers to 0. The only real exception is the infinite fuel, which is so much larger than Graham's number, that it might as well be a mere googplex (or 0).

>brojobs
Problem solved

You have that flipped. I came up with potentially interesting hypotheticals, all you're doing is saying nuh uh in a very boring way.

You can't defeat an argument by failing to address any points. That's called ignoring the argument.

you're fucking obsessed with brojobs, even the roman empire feII, wont Iast forever

>muh number is beg
>but humans can't have all the advantages
>but muh universe doesn't work like that
>blah blah blah
You're ignoring the spirit of the hypothetical, in what seems like a purposeful way. And not expanding any argument in a constructive way. That's boring.

The hypothetical is specifically NOT about the universe it's set in. It is flat, featureless, and boring in every way. The hypothetical is about a huge amount of marines vs. an unimaginably, almost endless supply of ants.

But there is unlimited time, and the marines have more than one undefeatable advantage. If you argued that they would go insane, I could grant you that and argue possible solutions. Or other ways they might break down. But ant geniuses without evolution, a lack of fairness, appeals to the nature of our (real) universe (that would ultimately make an infinite flat plane, tec., impossible anyway), or MUH NUMBAH are just boring at this point.

Gravity wins every time dummy

>with that pressure
Movement speed of humans 3 miles an hour. Movement speed of ants nearly six hours per mile. All the humans have to do is walk away until the ants die of old age.

That's true, I am actually ignoring any argument that starts with statements such as "OH MY FUCKING GOD IT'S SUCH A BIG FAHKING NUHMBERRR!!!!1!!1!!"

It's been addressed already and I have not seen any compelling argument that is based on the lack of ability in comprehension of these numbers. My marine scenario would likely be able to withstand infinite ants with no issues. It may rely on some marines locked up in mile-thick iron maidens, with automated defenses, (to prevent human generated wipeout) but it would work anyway.

ants kill more people every year in Australia than snakes, spiders, wasps and sharks do combined

>you're fucking obsessed with brojobs
It's just an appeal to the development of a societal way of dealing with boredom. Maybe it's badass vidya, maybe it's high culture. Who knows. But they will need something to occupy their infinite time if they are going to survive.

>aborigines
>people
I mean, that's a stretch...

topkek

No, you're just an idiot. Your entire argument is based on ignoring the premise (the size of the numbers), and allowing all kinds of exceptions that only apply to mamines, but not to ants.

>Your entire argument is based on ignoring the premise (the size of the numbers)
Maybe you should read again. I address it specifically. The ants are:
>slow
>spread out to an insane degree, even if closely spaced
>would take most of them nearly an infinite time to even make it to the marines
>marines only have to deal with a single circle of them at a time-- the Ant Horizon™
>that is a finite, unchanging number of ants to dispose of-- a consistent rate of engagement
>which makes a defense not only feasible, but pretty simple to construct
>eventually the destruction and disposal of ants would be automated
>so the last factor is time
>and there is unlimited time
Marines win.

>allowing all kinds of exceptions
The marines are people. People can do many things ants can not. That's why there are many more ants, and that's not an exception, it is the entire nature of the hypothetical.

rekt

You're still ignoring the numbers. It doesn't matter that marines can do things that ants cannot. As long as we assume it's changeable -- and you're assuming it is, for the marines, so we have to assume it's also the case for ants -- even ridiculously improbable things will happen.

Yes, that's a classic example of someone destroying their case with a lack of an argument.

this retarded

Ant's fagtards.

Based

>MUUUUUH NUMERRRRRRRRRRR
You're so fucking predictable. You have no argument other than the fucking number. Make it infinite! It doesn't matter.

The marines ALREADY HAVE SUPERIOR INTELLIGENCE. That is the point of the hypothetical. They will learn and develop things that we can already do. Just make them more self reliant, over the UNLIMITED YEARS THEY HAVE TO DO SO. I'm not saying that they will all be 921837456 IQ gods. I'm saying, with a googolplex of humans, some will be smart. They can get ideas on defenses because they have the brain capacity, as humans to do so. The ants are JUST FUCKING ANTS. They can grow, too, to the capacity of their little ant brains. Which is not much at all.

This is the point of the hypothetical. It does not matter how many ants there are. With basic-as humans, doing basic-ass human things that we already do, they will win every time.

>even ridiculously improbable things will happen.
So you're going to cite quantum fluctuations again, and say that somehow they will make changes on a large scale object such as an ant? I figured you had more of an understanding than that of quantum mechanics. But no, user, that shit cancels out every single time before it gets on the level where it would affect an ant.

Seriously, though, this is boring and if you start another reply with anythign about MAAAAAHHHH FOCKINGGGGG NOMBREEEEEESSS i'm just going to ignore it. MUH NUMBER is not an argument. Address my points if you want, but your argument based just on the numbers is way past lost.

the ants win, because they are going up against marines.

Your arguments have already been proved wrong, repeatedly. MAAH HOOMANS isn't an argument, not the scale we're talking about. Learn to think.

Since you're going up against marines, you can basically ignore the numbers. You could place a half-eaten donut in the box on the left and it would still win.

This.

I'm not user, but you sound pretty salty

>marines
>learn
hahahahahaha

Really? I literally borrowed phrasing from the poster's post. If you want salty, jump back a post for the original.

>other poster's post

I'm not saying that marines are the best portion of humanity for this task. But they do require at least ~85 IQ to be a marine, and the officers are significantly higher IQ. Generals would be on the very high end of the IQ curve. Compared to ants, there's no contest.

all the marines have to do is get in a circle and move their flame throwers back and forth pointed diagonally downward, then they win, but if they stand in a line, with that many ants, they can flank the marines, and come at them from beside, and behind. it's up to the strategy of the marines as to whether they win or lose.

Attached: 1560825967478s.jpg (250x249, 8K)

Assuming ants are static and unchangeable, maybe. Otherwise, the complete opposite.

>Really?
Yeah. It's the 'learn to think' thing. You don't really come across as a genius, but you're trying to act like you have some sort of edge here. user sounds maybe frustrated, probably because you keep just talking about Graham's number instead of addressing things he's talking about. I don't know if I agree with user, but he's making points and you're just ignoring them, talking about the same thing, and coming off as salty.

I've addressed the points repeatedly, up thread. The other user has just been repeating the same thing, over and over. That's why my replies are terse. It's the same stupid shit.

>Assuming ants are static and unchangeable
Why wouldn't I? There's nothing in OP's description that would lead me to believe the ants are going to do anything other than march toward marines and kill them:
>Ants are regular black ants, their goal is to destroy the Marines, nothing more

I dunno, I don't really see you addressing his points. Maybe you're just not being clear, but you seem to just fall back on the large number instead of saying why his defense strategy would fail. Where do the ants get in? How do they eventually overtake the marines? Why not take it point by point rather than jump to the number?

The biggest advantage of the marines is their infinite flamethrowers. I assume that everyone is agreed that if the marines did not have their flamethrowers or if the fuel was not infinite, the ants would trivially win?

Good, then, we get to the reason everyone rooting for the marines is wrong: the flamethrowers are not infinite. Sure, the fuel lasts indefinitely, but they have a finite power output. This means there's only so much energy per unit of time it can expel and as such has a finite number of ants it can destroy.

Related to this is also the rate of ant dispersion. That is, the incinerated ants do not simply cease to exist, the materials that make them up are chemically transformed to something else and then dispersed. This, however, takes time.

So, in order to defeat the marines, the ants would need to somehow overcome the destruction/dispersion rate of the flamethrowers. This is difficult to do since ants are slow and tiny. I imagine everyone here thinking the marines will win are imagining an endless wave of just simple ants crawling across the floor. This would not be the case. The ants would, eventually, build up into a huge wall of dead-under-their-own-weight burnt up carcasses , which woukd eventually break and wash over the marine defences in a massive tidal wave of death. As the antsunami is moved by gravity and not the motive capabilities of the ants themselves, the flamethrowers are unable to defend the marines. It only takes one wave to finish the marines off, because yes, Graham's number is that big.

If you're going to be that literal, what about the marines? The ants are given a goal and a behavior, the marines are not. Therefore, by your logic, it makes sense to assume the marines would just stand there while the ants attack.

Which is bullshit, but it's what you're arguing. You can't be selectively reductive. Either the marines have the full range of human capabilities, and probably all those hyper-tech things the earlier posters assumes; AND the ants can vary over time as well. And if they can, then whether it's from cosmic radiation or something else, their sheer numbers mean that the possibilities are infinite. They'll change, merge, develop, and quickly squash the marines because all that will happen in an infinitestimal fraction of the time it takes for the marines to organize.

Marines could just work to keep the ants in front of them while walking backwards and peeing hot fire on the little fuckers until the job is done a century later

Go up thread if you want more detail. The point is, given any possibility of variation over time, it doesn't matter that humans have the evolutionary advantage. The sheer number of ants means they'd overcome it. It really is about the numbers, and their relative size. Ignoring the size of the numbers is ignoring the point. The only real arguments against is to take the OP's starting assumptions very literally, and assume the ants never change in any way, but at the same time assume the humans do. Which is using selective logic.

The other reason it's worth ignoring is all those NUH UH IMMA GONNA IGNORE THE NUMBERS stuff is boring. It's a tedious attempt to turn what should be a creative exercise into HA I WIN. We talked about jump torpedoes and sapient fuel and other fun stuff upthread, but not with this faggot.

how would you actually kill them that fast with no weapons?

Don't forget that the OP also provided some pretty incredible conditions here that weaken the 'numbers' argument. Equipping each Marine with a relentless flame thrower that can torch a massive amount of ants in just a single quick burst is a HUGE detail. The fact that Marines won't experience fatigue or hunger is another HUGE detail. A flat infinite terrain is also to the Marines' tactical advantage.

If none of those conditions existed, the yeah, the ants could probably wipe them out through sheer numbers alone. But they do, and the ants are fucked here.

>The ants are given a goal and a behavior, the marines are not.
I would assume their goal would be to survive and outlast the ant attack.

>herefore, by your logic, it makes sense to assume the marines would just stand there while the ants attack.
Nah, that's a logical fallacy. OP specifically stated the purpose of the ants for a reason-- we don't know exactly how ants function, so he states their purpose. Maybe so we don't assume 99% of them just wander off. But humans are relatable, and would resist an attack to the best of their ability.

>You can't be selectively reductive.Either the marines have the full range of human capabilities, and probably all those hyper-tech things the earlier posters assumes; AND the ants can vary over time as well.
I'm not, I'm going by OP. He stated the rules. You don't have to like them. I don't think anyone is saying that ants can't change. But their capacity to change is not as high as a human. I think that's the point.

>And if they can, then whether it's from cosmic radiation or something else, their sheer numbers mean that the possibilities are infinite.
OP says they are just normal black ants. So that's what they are. If you go past that, you're working outside the rules OP laid out. The whole thing is about a comparison of numbers. Gobs of normal ants, or comparably few humans with human abilities.

You seem to be taking this too literally. OP only wrote some basic rules, so you have to take them at face value. I think user had a good defense strategy that fit in the rules. but I still think the marines would collectively an hero or something before the ants dies. Even a locked up marine would find a way to die rather than wait out nearly forever.

So? Did OP say there was a limited amount of time? No.
So? Did OP say there was a limited universe?
No.

OP said that they are fighting on a flat infinite plane, implying that we're talking purely about conventional physics and that they're spread out evenly and not in some fuckhuge massive singularity.

>Longest i ever fought was 20 minutes and i threw up afterward from physical exhaustion.
Yeah, I bet it was hard work yelling at your mom for 20 minutes. She should't have burned your tendies.

>Ignoring the size of the numbers is ignoring the point.
I don't agree. Someone posted something about the interface between the ants and humans. There will only ever be a finite amount of ants and humans that interact. I think this benefits the marines to the point that they will win. Even if they just keep the flames going, and collectively sweep the ants to the middle of their group, they'll just keep burning ants indefinitely and make ant mountain over time. Of course, this is ignoring any human impulses to do anything other than survive. But they are marines, so this might not be a stretch...

i don't raly know, but i think ant, they have more hands so they can carie more waepon?

Stick win every time

t. guy whos never been in a fight

I think the Marines could kill all the ants, but the kids coming in at every 20 seconds would be difficult because they would be psychologically affected and probably go numb and stop killing the ants and be eaten alive by the ants and kids.

Attached: Unsolved-Mysteries.jpg (550x309, 90K)

>don’t have to procreate
>don’t have to
But can they?

The time limit is as long as it would take to tunnel behind the marines defenses. The fight would be over relatively quickly

this is based on the assumption that the marines would be stationary while an unimaginable wave of ants descends on them, long enough for ants to tunnel behind them

I don't think that would be the case

So the argument has gone from "the soldiers would win" to "they could stay alive if they ran away."

The marines, easily. I'm not a marine and have killed countless ants already without a flame thrower.

ants win, not even close

the difference between a googolplex and a G number is astonishing

the question is very close to asking who would win, an entire universe absolutely packed with ants, or a single marine

to make the comparison it's pretty much the same question

No, the single quick burst and massive amount of ants is utterly irrelevant.

Think about this for a second. A flat plane. Let's say the marines space themselves 1 meter apart. 1 googleplex m^2 = pi r^2, solve for r. The square root of 10^(10^100) = 10^(5*10^99), and then divide by pi if it matters.

The size of the universe (not just the visible universe) is a 10^27 m, which is an incredibly tiny fraction of the size of radius of the marineoverse.

What would happen? It really doesn't matter. Because if the marines are all together in one place, and the ants are coming at them in all directions, the interface where they actually interact is so tiny that obscene numbers of marine civilizations would emerge, live, and die without ever even realizing they were at war with ants. You could do some math assuming speed of light communication, and it still wouldn't matter. Even those marines within billions or trillions or googols of light years of the wave of ants only make up such a tiny fraction of the marineoverse, that we can safely round it down to zero and ignore it.

It will only start to matter on infinite time scales, but who cares about that? Our universe has a short lifespan than the marineoverse. A much, much, much smaller lifespan with much less variety. However it works out, there are marines enough and time for nearly everything.

Except heterosexuality, but we knew that.

the shear gravitational field created by the mass from both sides would likely instantly kill both sides and create massive black holes

I would seduce them and make a bigger orgy with each kid that comes

OP is a retarded faggot as usual

US Marines because
1. elite fighting force
2. they are BLACK ants so they are niggers
3. flamethrowers can kill at least 100 ants so if every marine killed 100 ants, then the job would be easy
4. ants cant even be organized as well as soldiers (and these are US soldiers the best)
5. I talked to an exterminator and he said it would take 1000 ants to kill a person which is alot

This post gave me a boner

You're making lots of assumptions. Which are fine, as long as you're clear about them. But they're assumptions. They don't win an argument, they only establish the ground rules used to frame your conclusions. Other people with different assumptions can draw different conclusions, and are both can be correct within those different frameworks. And your assumptions are not the most parsimonious, either. Reading something into the marine's behavior while not into the ants is the real logical fallacy.

The biggest gap though is the capacity to change. Humans start with a significant edge, and the lack of reproduction and therefore evolution is a major hindrance. Just picture a mere googol of ants, such an incredibly tiny number that's for all practical purposes its indistinguishable from 0. But if you just start that number of ants marching, and allow random collisions of atoms, chemical compounds mixing, and so on... incredibly improbable things with emerge. And we're dealing with a number of ants that's almost inconceivably larger. That's the basic argument: Something would happen. Ants would become supergeniuses, morph into other things, all those small random events would lead to gross, systemic changes. It would happen. It would also happen to the marines, but there are so many more ants we can ignore that as insignificant.

This. End of discussion.

Clearly the ants because their mass would collapse into a singularity bazillions of times physically larger than the universe.

>Ants would become supergeniuses, morph into other things, all those small random events would lead to gross, systemic changes.
if you're going that route, which is highly improbably and not backup up by OP's 'just ants' statement, it's just as likely, or more likely, for the ants to morph into chemical bombs and destroy themselves (and the supergenius ants) way before they even see the marines.

Any way you look at it, this line of arguing does not pan out to anything productive.

This post spontaneously and improbably gave me cancer

>unlimited flamethrower
>no need to stop or rest
would take like 10 marines, at most, to stand in a circle fanning outwards.

If they're regular ants, all it would take is time. Only real threat is dying of old age.

except each marine would have to kill more then a googloplex of ants, not 100

assuming no gravit
too many ants, eventually the shear number of ant corpses would start to pile up and overrun the marines, both the flame throwers and marines would start to lack oxygen, the flame throwers would not be able to combust and marines would start to smother due to the shear volume of ants

If you're going with just ants, then you're also stuck with just marines with flamethrowers. And literally doesn't matter if some ants turn into chemical bombs and destroy themselves, they have the numbers for an almost infinite number of self-destructive events to happen. All it takes it one that's bad enough to take out the marines.

I want to meet the ant bad enough to kill a marine

Ender Wiggin will beat the buggers.

He'll kill 'em with music

Attached: tvwdgn6v.j31.jpg (500x500, 50K)

Now now, it's not nice to call marines "buggers"
>even it's true

>If you're going with just ants, then you're also stuck with just marines with flamethrowers.
You're implying rules that are not what OP said. I don't think anyone said anything other than just marines with flamethrowers. But there will be some bored marines in the middle, and they are going to think of new ways to kill the ants. Or if you have a 100 year shift in ant extermination, you'll find new ways to kill ants. Because marines are humans (sort of, at least). People do that, by default.

The ants will march. Toward the marines. Because that's what OP said. And because they have no opportunity to learn anything other than the nuances of the ant anus right in front of it. Their first experience of the marines will be a fiery death, nothing else.

OP said 'just ants', and he said 'marines', so there's nothing contradictory here.

Ants win

>tunnel underground and immerge amongst the marines.

gg

>form a giant ant megatron on all sides and trample the marines

gg

chat.whatsapp.com/invite/Hisu8s3B9ncAYgVkndKExO

the ants would create a bigger black hole and would consume the other

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately dense, or not. The OP set out the starting conditions. You can't give marines completely freedom of autonomy, and treat ants as unchangeably uniform. The whole point of the exercise is to imagine the possibilities when dealing iwth numbers beyond the human ability to directly comprehend, not to limit things to your personal experience. There are maybe 10 quadrillion ants on earth, Graham's number is a bit bigger than that. You need to allow for that.

ants have shorter lifespan, they simply die at some point no matter how many there are

>limited number of ants and marines
>unlimited space
Rarely would a marine ever see an ant, let alone another marine

hmm
depends on what the flamethrowers are made of. would likely melt if on long enough, probably even if the marines go in rotations.

you do realize that Graham's number needs a new notation to write it down conceptually, and even then you can't write it down as a number in one line.... where 10^(10^100) is pretty easy to write down

>Neither team have to eat, sleep, drink, procreate, etc
Probably fair to say that it's in the sentiment of this condition that neither side will die of old age.

the question is- state initial conditions- positions and configuration of ants/marines... without this you don;t have enough information

You're ignoring the remains of the burnt ants
eventually they'll hinder the ability of the marines to defend themselves properly
they'll literally be burning up their own oxygen, too
eventually the serviceable firing locations (flamethrowers) will become so small that they'll suffocate themselves and die

>And that is the right question
Just imagine how large either force would grow over time if certain sects remained at bay for a specific time and the off spring were given sufficient time to reach adulthood and fight the battle themselves

>You can't give marines completely freedom of autonomy
They are humans...

>and treat ants as unchangeably uniform
They aren't, other than by their inherent limitation set by OP: they are just ants that march to the marines; also, they only experience ant butts until they meet their fiery death. Ants are not complicated beings. Their apparent 'uniformity' is by evolution-- and OP's universe heavily implies that this will remain the case:
>Ants are regular black ants, their goal is to destroy the Marines, nothing more
>nothing more

People have free will. Even marines. You are acting surprised that marines are people, and ants are inherently limited when compared to humans.

>not to limit things to your personal experience.
You're the one trying to impose your experience of your universe, or your concept of fairness to this equation. OP was pretty clear: marines, who are people, and therefore pretty adaptable vs. ants, that are just ants, who are limited in their ability to adapt, and are set to simply attack the marines. You can't seem to accept that, but that's the case. Your universe, it's quantum oddities, etc. are not part of OP's universe. OP's universe has a flat plane, no features, a bunch of marines, and a fuckton of ants. Regular, human, adaptable marines (or they would not be marines, they'd be braindead zombies with flamethrowers. And regular ants, limited as they are in nature, on a mission to kill some humans. That's it.

>Graham's number is a bit bigger than that. You need to allow for that.
OP stipulated that the ants are just that. Ants. He didn't say 'the ants will evolve!' or 'the marines can only shoot their flamethrowers like braindead idiots'. Seems like he carefully set it up so people like you wouldn't make shitty assumptions. I guess he needs to be clearer with his rules, so there's no bullshit like 'quantum do-hickory' or 'gravitah'. Either way, your repeated assertion that this is a simple numbers game is pretty lame.

Jesus Christ. You retards need to read the thread. Here's the condensed version:
>arguments from people that generally understand the concepts and numbers involved, some good, some bad, some funny
>OH MY FUCKIGN GOD!!!!11!11! GRAHAMCRACKER NUMBRE SO BEG THAT YOU MUS BE RETARDE IF YOU THINK AT ALL PAST TEH BIG NUMER!!!1!!!!1!!!!

There have been plenty of arguments that show the possibility of the marines coming on top. In a straight duel, with no mental fatigue, I buy it. Otherwise, probably not. But either side of this debate is better than the non-argument from the Grahamfags.

Let me save you some time. Here's your next argument, so you don't need to post it again:
>YOU FUKCIN STOOPID! GHRAGHAM NUMREB SO VER BEG IT KILS ALL ANTS AN HUMANS, REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!1!11!!!!!!1!!11!1!

No, that's just the starting conditions. You're assuming they're fixed and static, but humans aren't. That's your bias, not logic.

This post is a perfect example of the completely irrational illogic and inability to understand large numbers that's made the last part of the thread so boring.

they can eat other ants though. eons of cannibalism and murder fueled ant evolution would create a super ant capable of surviving the flame throwers and it will destroy them all. ants win.