Abilities level up as you use them

>abilities level up as you complete Achievements

is this bait or are you just stupid as fuck

The second option is the one where you get fucked by your early choices.

Fpfp

>and 95% of the time it leads to a repetitive gaming cycle where you keep repeating the same action to make Ability X stronger, and once Ability X once is maxed, it's hard to justify not using Ability X over and over again because it's by far the best thing you have.
absolutely this. the 5% is achievable, but it's rare

A system that uses both makes the most sense, like in Wizardry 7.
Stuff like oratory, which determines your success rate when casting spells, levels up as you use spells during battle. However thaumaturgy, which determines what spells from the mage book you can learn, can only be leveled up when your character levels up.
The logic behind this is that skills that improve with practice improve with use and skills that require you to read a book or learn something new improve when you invest points on them on level up.

"Learn by doing" always turns to pointless grind.
There is a reason it has been abandoned by sane devs.

Attached: 1563469966055.png (423x751, 256K)

So basically you people need the second option because you are brainlets who cant into RPGs

>the 5% is achievable, but it's rare
It's only achievable by limiting game time or capping possible skillset in some way.

>shoot 1,000 guys in the face
>suddenly I'm an expert computer hacker

The former is very exploitable.
The later allows for easier game balance

>muh realism

The first option is way more casual oriented. You can never make a bad character with that system because you can improve any skill at any time, that's a design safety net for retards like you.

It really depends.
Combat being much more common than dialog options, it makes sense why you'd be able to skill up without having to get in as much dialogue as possible.
but if the game is well designed to have a nice XP curve, and balance of actions.

Thought this was sadpanda for a second

SaGa also did it right: You technically learn new stuff by repeated usage, but: 1) Instead of making said skills stronger, you just learn stronger skills; 2) It's extremely rare that one skill leads directly to another, usually you need to use various skills to unlock another one; and 3) The fact that nothing is spelled out for you means that, unless you have a guide, experimentation is how you get to unlock said skills. These are also the reasons why SaGa's systems are fun and FF2's systems are horseshit.
>t. munchkin

Second. First one is dumb, basically means that you can get all abilities to max level, which makes having different abilities pointless. It's better to have a few abilities you can max that make different builds actually different.

That still sounds like a massive grind.
>unless you have a guide
If a game relies on player being bad, it is a bad game

Depends on style of game.
If you want the game to progress like a story and have battles stay in the same realm of difficulty as the game develops, then option 2. If you want a more open worls game where you can cheese most instances because you spent 10 hours repeating action x and y, then option 1.
If you can find a balance between the two (often used as a gaining stats from level ups but also skill points to increase abilities) then you can control the flow more reasonably and exert a soft cap of power.

>If a game relies on player being bad, it is a bad game
We're not talking about a MMO here, a non-competitive environment means discovery and experiencing things for yourself is part of the fun of single-player experiences, instead of having to look up the best strategies to be competitive. That's why only shitters play single-player games with a guide.

Could be fixed by gradually lowering your proficiency in abilities that you don't use periodically, forcing you to pick a build or a jack of all trades.

>le exploration
Nah, a game that needs the player to be bad is a bad game.
Good games give the player knowledge and let him find his way around the world. Bad games hide knowledge and rely on player being ignorant to pretend they're difficult.

>pls spoonfeed me game!
Retards like you are the reason why every AAA experience becomes "Follow the Waypoint" simulators. Please an hero yourself.

Kill yourself retard

The second one requires you to plan ahead and involves strategies.
Yes it doesn't make sense to increase lockpicking skills after killing a bunch of bandit but the first one is braindead spam to get overpowered skills.

Retards detected.
Can't design a character? Pretend that grind replaces design!

Enjoy never winning a roguelike or any other game that requires triple digit IQ.

Except it isnt nigger. All the posts regarding option 1s cons are about lack of self control and being unable to actually get the ROLEPLAYING aspect of an RPG

SaGa does it right because skill growth is only allowed in battles, outside of general good ability design that's why it works out so well compared to something like TES where there's no real context in which you level up something, which leads to stupid shit like jumping for hours or forging a gorillion iron daggers.
SaGa also used to have hybrid systems with both natural and point based growth like MS, which worked pretty well, or the panel system in Unlimited which is in its own tier in terms of character building.
SaGa games don't really have grind, especially because other mechanics like BR do not encourage it.
Technically, all games with proficiencies are beatable at the 25 range, which you'll reach normally, while stat based games hover around the 45-55 range, which again, is normal growth, not to mention that you also have games with races that do not grow by fighting like mechs, which means that an all mech team for instance has zero need or even reason to grind since battles give you nothing in terms of "levels", mechs gain power by equipping things instead.

The only reason you'll need to grind is if you want to fight up some powered up final bosses, which are optional, and even there grinding is just a warranty to give you a bit more room for errors, most of the fight will still be around using specific strategies that have very little to do with your proficiencies or grinding for stats/techs.

Neither.

How is this limited to only the first option? Whats stopping me from just grinding and then manually assigning my points until everything is maxed? This idea keeps getting posted itt.

>tes forging a gorillion daggers
Except doesnt that not work? I thought the exp rate diminished the more you repeated something?

That's not how people work, we naturally want to maximize our well being. People specialize in RPGs when the games are designed in a way that makes that the best option. You are just mad others aren't as autistic as you are and condoning bad game design because you play self imposed challenges.
I mean, I'm not a professional athlete, but I still lift 4 times a week for the health benefits. I think I'll roleplay as that kind of character.

Nah, at that point you are better of with the first system, just choose a build and stick to it. Second also means that devs can't gatekeep content behind ability scores, because you probably won't be specialized in anything. Which also makes all playthroughs basically the same, removing part of the role playing aspect.

Second because first is almost always terribly implemented, Elder Scrolls games being the worst offenders that come to mind.

found the retard

Attached: 1564664155429.gif (250x308, 1.88M)

A good RPG won't have enough XP to allow you to do that, because it makes builds pointless.

>my guy gets better at using big guns by killing raiders with a baseball bat
This makes no sense, abilities leveling up as you use them is better

Generally with the second option you have a severally limited amount of levels/points to increase stats

Attached: 1555331386807.png (842x792, 97K)

>use hiding information as example of bad design
>mentions roguelike
Please tell me you're just pretending.

Except it isnt. Most normal people arent going to artistically grind every single ability to max. They are going to play through the game however they prefer and the experience still comes out naturally. So again option 2 is for people who zero self control so in an environment like option 1 they autistically grind every skill to max.

>winning a roguelike
>a roguelike

What is this retarded zoomer standed lmao? Fuck off newfag.

Attached: 1562380280838.png (254x261, 9K)

Depends on the game. Kenshi does the first one and its one of my favorite games of all time. New Vegas does the second but its also one of my favorites. Depends on the implementation

This.

>you gotta make 10000 iron daggers to level up blacksmithing

Or dont? Why do people try to minmax so hard in a singleplayer game? Just play the game like you arent autistic and your blacksmithing will level itself in time.

Okay so your solution is level caps. But is there not an equally easy solution for option 1 in that reptition degrades amount of exp given?

Abilities level up as you use them, but you can also pay trainer to level you up faster.

Why did bethesda go the option two route with fallout when they always did option one in TES?

>But is there not an equally easy solution for option 1 in that reptition degrades amount of exp given

Yes absolutely, but these brainlets have zero imagination. Anything from a hard cap to a soft cap is a good way to limit option 1.

Repetition should lower xp gain as well as having caps on how much each activity should provide xp at all. So if you cast a basic spell you should stop 'learning' anything from it rather quickly as it's not very hard to do or very involved to do which fixes the Elder Scrolls problem of casting a level 0 open spell 3 trillion times to get max level.

It probably wouldn't work as well in a post apocalypse setting. You don't have as many chances to raise, say, barter or speech in a wasteland where most people are dead than you do in a populated nation. Your options for things besides killing are more limited.

Not that user but didnt Skyrim do something like this? Im pretty sure i remember the dagger crafting spam gave less and less experience over time

I haven't played Skyrim in 7 years so I can't really say but I do remember mashing out hundreds of the same thing to level smithing so I'm going to so no unless an update changed it.

Reminder you can get 100 in at least two stats before finishing the tutorial in Skyrim.

Second is much better because it allows you to make clear choices about how your character progresses and gives you a fairly predictable rate at which you improve.

The first option can be nice in theory but requires too much from the rest of the game's design. It's fine when applied to main combat abilities generally speaking because you will use those all the time, but it's super shit for abilities which you don't use that often. It can often force you into shitty ability grind or even worse can be cheesed to level abilities very quickly. It doesn't even really improve character progression in any way that typical point distribution doesn't also do. It might be more "realistic" to learn by doing but that doesn't mean it's actually a good idea as far as game design goes.

How?

By grinding like an autistic retard or exploting some bug i bet.

You can level up alteration and illusion bt just repeatedly casting spells, though it takes a ridiculous amount of time and only an actual autist would even bother with it

Real roguelikes all have victory states, poser-user. DCSS, Nethack, Brogue, Angband, and Rogue itself.

Well of Souls had a magic system where all the elements were aligned on a wheel and leveling something reduced the experience of the elements on the opposite side.
You could spend EXP on leveling a element or increase it by casting spells from that family. If you were truly hardcore and grinded for ages you could get all the elements up to lvl 9 and have access to all the most powerful spells, but you would have to constantly grind and cast them evenly so you don't lose levels and access to your spells.

Always thought that was a cool idea I never really saw explored anywhere.

Attached: wos.png (1920x1080, 1.55M)

No, but if I remember right they patched exp gains so that you get more exp depending on the value of the crafted item.

>Always thought that was a cool idea I never really saw explored anywhere.
Because it sounds utterly, horrendously tedious.

fuck you nigger

Attached: 1565920109119.png (547x386, 130K)

>itt: retarded faggots

Only tedious for retards that demand they be gods at everything

So... Saga or Etrian Odyssey?

Why choose? Tactics Ogre had both.

both

Attached: 1499281492_3.jpg (1024x768, 146K)

gothic has the best system that represents protestant work ethic. level up to gain learning points then suck a master of a craft's dick to make him teach you things. it makes no sense in rpg to randomly gain knowledge just through experience. you learn basic foundation through experience and when you have a feasible foundation to build mastery on people will take you as an apprenticeship.

I love the M&B system. You feel growth in the gameplay, and you also have a "build" and can't max everything (without an essentially unreachable level).

When done right, first, but its extremely hard to pull off. Many will disagree but skyrim did most of it pretty good, with the exception of sneaking and range that level up way too fast for no reason

The tutorial stops at a spot and doesn't continue until you open a door and your companion for the quest is immortal so you beat his ass with a sword then light him on fire until you get level 100 one handed and destruction. I don't remember if you can a loot 2handed weapon. You used to be able to max sneak out as well, using the bear, but I think it got patched out.

this

>game has first system
>you waste your time grinding out levels by doing retarded shit like getting hit a billion times for hours
>game has second system
>you waste your time by just killing enemies and/or completing quests and the like

They both can be tedious but the latter feels better more often than not.

Attached: 0w0.png (1024x1024, 1.14M)

probably because the letters been done to death, the other system hasn't been ran into the ground so the kinks have not been worked out, personally I think a combo system would fix that

I think it should be more like an achievement system, kind of like call of duty attachments where 5 headshots unlocks the next one. as long as it is more varied than "shoot a gun 100 times" it would be fun. Doom's combat challenges were really fun, the trick is to make it something hard to specifically grind but still something you would reasonably be able to do frequently.

Skyrim completely ruined it with enemy level scaling.
You went to town to level up your crafting skills, and now enemies are 5 levels higher and your combat skills are too low.

FPBP
/thread
Also masters/ trainers/ teachers to pay both in money and game time (more games should have actual time passing), and/ or doing quests for them to improve your stats/ skills and/ or learning new ones.

Attached: 1460328676220.jpg (1280x720, 314K)

>When done right, first
>skyrim did most of it pretty good
This... is the power... of firstfags...

>or else you end up with boring jack of all trades master of everything characters
Thats' easily as fuck to limit, idiot.

>always turns to pointless grind.
Every single RPG that allows you to grind (which is pretty much every single one) can and/ or will be a grindfest, moron.

Attached: wut nigga.jpg (799x799, 203K)

>They are going to play through the game however they prefer and the experience still comes out naturally.

>wants to play a ranger specialized in stealth and bows
>actually my character can do magic, healing, pickpocketing, wear heavy armor, is a blacksmith, can use warhammers, do alchemy ecc...
>can't do those things because i would level them up fucking up my character.
>i'm essentialy playing a retard that can use magic but never does because we don't know why.

this is good game design somehow

>because you can improve any skill at any time

ironic shitposting is still shitposting

Fucking retard
>have a sane RPG with sane level cap
>develop character to max
>get best items
>rest of the game has to be beaten with pure skill

>have a RPG with learn by doing
>can always grind some important skill because learn by doing is invariably done by retards, for retards
>can always overpower all challenge with more grind
>dev notices it and pads it with extra grind

There isn't ONE example of learn by doing done right.
There are multiple examples of learn by xp done right and preventing grind.

First one, second one is an artifact of bad design/false choices especially if it has no respec system.

There's no fun or value in being bottlednecked into a bad choice because the devs deliberately let you screw yourself over without a 3rd party guide or information.

First makes more sense but is bad from a gameplay point of view. If you can level every skill by just doing it then eventually you can do everything and any sense of build variety is ultimately worthless. Having the player have to choose a limited number of skills throughout the play through to prioritize means characters/builds are more unique and varied.

>makes more sense
Why do retards use this phrase when they mean "is more realistic"?

Why not both like Morrowind?

A creature flying with wings makes more sense than one flying with Popsicle sticks. Realistic things are easier to grasp and understand.

But morrowind is literally just the first. Just like all TES games.

Morrowind's leveling/skill point system is terribly broken though. No game should ever use it as inspiration.

"Making sense" is far more broad than realism.
Being forced to take a shit ever in-game day is realistic, putting shitting in a game doesn't really make sense.

Learn by doing is realistic, but only works as a gameplay mechanic in very specific instances.

DMC3 is in example why the first isn't always a great game plan when you want your players to really learn the systems before choosing from the total.
Many players had been repeating certain skills and dedicating to certain styles so long they ignored/didn't understand the others until a combo video reminded them they existed.
Granted DMC3 made it so the styles were improved with use and the skills were bought, but the point remains once someone becomes hook on a behavioral loop the game itself encourages it's hard to wean them off.

Come DMC4 even with all the styles for Dante now open (though tweaked) they were still those playing in a very formulaic fashion, and DMC4 had even gone as far to give you Proud Souls so you could "rent" skills instead of permanently buy them. This encouraged experimenting even more but again, few saw the point because they'd become condition to sticking to their guns and just powering through.

Optional level up can provoke similar preferential thinking depending on how immediate the reward/results are seen, but at the very least that's more on the player and not the game.

based retard

I was about to say this but then I saw your post

First is shit. Ends up with players grinding abilities in retarded ways and now you're stuck in a certain skillset or leveling doesn't matter.

Attached: SSQ2.png (594x595, 221K)

Name some games that actually do that though. And not just 'you can only grind each skill for a certain amount of XP per day'

Mabinogi has taught me I prefer the first.

>>Abilities level up as you use them
It's fine in solo games, but in party-based games, it sucks. i.e. there's no shared xp, and the healer doesn't level from healing, so you have to trap and baby enemies so the healer can get the killing blow all the time. With shared xp, there's essentially the same thing

this is excellent

Except it didnt. If you level up crafting, your max level goes up so enemies are now stronger. So now if you go out to fight something you are at a disadvantage because you are a craftsman, not a fighter. Meaning you need to hire bodyguards to do the fighting for you.

Attached: ...hhehehehhahaHAHAHA.gif (346x261, 1.49M)

Yep. And this Is the power of second fags

I usually prefer second, since there's always that one ability that's dogshit until you reach a certain point of strength or it unlocks a secondary effect that makes it worth using
e.g.:
>Fire magic
>First spell fires a single fireball with a couple of seconds cooldown
>Second spell unlocked fires a small volley of them, uses little more mana than the first and has an equal/better cooldown

What the fuck are you trying to say here? Are you trying to say the first system is bad because of this? Makes no sense because you could theoretically do other skills, and it wont hamper you except that you wont be as proficient at using those skills in that sort of system. This is a bigger problem in the 2nd option. Since you will literally NEVER get better at any other skills you mess around with because youd have to waste levels getting them up.

first is fucking cancer
fuck needing to set the ai to auto battle another ai for sixteen hours in tacitcs ogre just so my holy spells can stop sucking

>all the second option fags reasoning still literally a lack of self contron and an inability to ROLEPLAY in a ROLEPLAYING game
Jesus fucking christ. The absolute STATE of Yea Forums

it's bad because if i want to make a character that is bad or average at something i can't attempt that something because it ends up making it good at it.

if i make a character with bad melee skills i want to be able to use melee if the situation requires and just get the result i should.
if i do that with the first system my character ends up being good at it.

if i make a mage that's shit at melee i would probably still fight melee at the beginning because enemies are shit and resources are low.
second system makes my weak mage come out of the early levels as a fucking warrior because he was beating rats with a stick and rarely used magic

You should literally NEVER need to do that if you are playing a halfway decent game. If there are enemies with very specific weaknesses the game SHOULD have a party system in which an AI party member can fill in whatever areas the MC is lacking

>second system makes my weak mage come out of the early levels as a fucking warrior

fuck i meant first system

>if i want to be a mage but solely practice melee abilities i shouldnt come out as a proficient warrior but as a proficient mage
You are kidding right? You are literally highlighting the reason people prefer the first system

>spend all my time studying astrology
>get pissed off that im not a great auto mechanic
BRAVO

Funny because I can think of a bunch of shitty examples of the first one so I'm just going to have to go with it being a terrible idea.

Contact
Final Fantasy II
Final Fantasy fucking Legend
Disgaea
FFT
Tactics Ogre
etc

Hell I like half of them but it's sure not for their leveling systems.

they can like it but that doesn't make it good game design.

the point is that you can't make a character and play it out.
how is it good that the only way to make a warrior that's bad at talking is to never make him talk to people because if you do it too much he ends up being good at it?

wtf

Attached: 1426855732183.gif (230x131, 2.98M)

>Weakest abilities can also be the strongest

Attached: tg - The Legend of Edgardo, and A Man Named Squid.png (1514x4546, 973K)

What if general proficiency goes up the more you do a thing for minor bonuses, but major specializations take points which are limited?

Attached: a bite.png (500x323, 187K)

ah yes i remember this

super rare to see it posted here good shit man

Attached: 1546681595407.png (549x558, 236K)

They've produced some pretty amazing stories over the years

Attached: tg - The Fisherman.png (1259x1050, 127K)

pretty good master to go along with it

Former is better for role playing games, the latter for action games.

Why not both? Abilities level up as you use them, but offer opportunities in the game for a person to manually choose what to level up.

you actual lobotomite, kill yourself

The latter because inevitably one of the important skills is gonna absolute cancer to level

How the fuck does it make sense to use primarily melee but then become a mage?

So when do plan on committing suduko?

Now this is shitposting

Abilities level as you use them.

Abilities are tied to stats and influence potential stat increases within a given level (e.g. raising one associated with, say, Intelligence, will allow you to gain a maximum of 5 points on level up in that stat)

However, only abilities in your "class skills" count towards overall level progress.

Attached: morro.png (507x353, 328K)

They both have their merits. I prefer Deus Ex's system though as you get EXP from doing objectives (critical location bonus/doing a goal), making it through the stage (advancement bonus), finding nooks and crannies (exploration bonus), or doing feats (accomplishment bonus). The common thread here is that it rewards you for what you do, not how you do it. I think this works a lot better and allows for more creative builds and variety.
Compare to Bethesda's model, where it creates a positive feedback loop.You get good at sneaking, so you're encouraged to sneak when you run into an encounter. This makes you better at sneaking, which encourages you to sneak in the next fight. No encouragement to mix things up, as switching to two-handed weapons when you've been stealth-archering for the last 20 levels is a death sentence.
>tl;dr: Deus Ex allows you to build diverse builds and encourages you to mix things up. It helps that skills only effect efficiency or accuracy instead of actual damage. Bethesda encourages a positive feedback loop where change is punishing. Nothing wrong with either but I prefer Deus Ex.

The first one is usually silly. I remember playing Oblivion and constantly hopping around and casting healing spells on myself everywhere I went and eventually I could jump over houses and be pretty much immortal.

Why don't you add some dumb rule like "must sleep to level up" as well?

because that's what you are
a mage
mages kinda suck at early levels because they don't have enough mana or spell to fight so they have to rely on phisical combat.
if the early levels of "low magic usage" means that you become a better warrior than mage you will never experience certain builds and roleplay options

Also pointless abilities like jumping, which you can use to powerlevel stats, but which are a waste of time otherwise.