>Asgore murdered 6 children
>Toriel lets 6 children die, then tries to murder a child she likes for trying to leave
>Undyne tries to murder a child, regardless of if they are an actual threat, and shows no remorse or reluctance for it
>Mettaton tries to murder a child to go to the surface to get attention
>Alphys made a genocidal robot that tries to murder you to trick you into being her friend, then performed a bunch of experiments that fused a bunch of monsters together so that they're indistinguishable from their former selves, then hid them from their families
>Muffet tries to murder a child over pastries, because she wants to buy a limo
>Sans lets everyone get murdered in the genocide route and does nothing because he's lazy, and would've murdered you when he first saw you but didn't because of goat pussy
Why is every monster in this game so morally bankrupt? The only "good" monster is Papyrus
Asgore murdered 6 children
>Papyrus
Tries to capture a human and keep it as a slave until it eventually gets sacrificed by the others
Nice try op
And what's the funny part.
she's already on super smash bros ultimate.
>tries to murder a child she likes for trying to leave
If your health drops low she stops the current attack and starts exclusively spamming an attack that doesn't hit you
>fights back against a monster because they're trying to kill me
>"WAAAAH YOU'RE A SOULLESS KILLER!"
How the fuck did anybody feel bad for having a monster die in this game?
Typing up a substantial response to this, bumping in the interim
Because they're tired of living in this hell that mankind put them in for eternity for something that happened so long ago it's likely nobody even remembers
what?
going on 4 years now and we are still having this fucking thread.
You're not supposed to feel bad for killing in self defence. You're supposed to feel bad for going back in time to do it again. sans straight up says that it's your opinion whether or not you should care. He only starts calling you out when you do another playthrough and keep killing monsters.
What did he mean by this
Based. I liked Undertale for the soundtrack and bullet hell mechanics, but anyone who thinks the morality system was something revolutionary is a dumbell. It was literally the same binary morality system that's been in hundreds of games before. Kill people = bad. Don't kill people = good. 3 endings depending on if you killed everyone, no one, or only some people. And the game didn't exactly make most of the monsters sympathetic. Like, seriously? Am I supposed to feel sorry for killing Mettaton and spider girl? They're basically sociopaths that want to kill you for their own entertainment.
>Tries to capture a human and keep it as a slave until it eventually gets sacrificed by the others
That not accurate at all. He tried to capture a human for the King because everyone in his society told him to, and he figured in doing so Asgore and the human would just talk out their differences, then Asgore would help the human go home.
Papyrus > Sans
iirc sans only really steps in because he knows you will likely go on to destroy literally everything including the humans...
Only on genocide where you have to explicitly attempt to kill every single creature in every zone by getting random encounters until you can't anymore. If you play normally and just kill whatever you come across plus the bosses, you don't get genocide. You have to go out of your way to grind and most likely know what you're trying to accomplish because you don't get enough encounters to wipe out the whole area without deliberately trying to.
I want a different route where you can just parry everything and they go “woah, better not fuck with him.”
Really makes you think huh? Since all these monsters try to attack you it might be morally justifyable to kill them. Geez, I wonder how great this game would have been if you had to decide for yourself which monster you kill and which monster you keep alive. Only to find out in the end that it might have been the wrong way since all of these monsters are actually kind and loving and just attacked you out of fear. Thus you had motivation to play the game again to see what would happen if you let everyone alive.
What did you say user? This is already the case?
Then why the fuck do undertale fan fucks think it's a good idea to spoil the game for newcomers by saying "MUH YOU HAVE TO PACIFIST RUN ITS THE ONLY REAL RUN AND MAKES GOOD ENDING"
You weren't supposed to know that god dammit! The concept of the game is to question your own morality you morons!
Stop ruining the game for everyone!
I know it's bait but a surprising amount of people actual believe of this, so it helps to iron this all out for the record.
1) Self defense is not murder, and neither is basic policing and security work. The totality of the informatiom available to monsterkind in the aftermath of the human-monster war, as recorded by the monster side of history, strongly indicates that by all accounts humans entering the underground must be restrained and executed. Even a mere child is an enormous danger to the entirety of serving monsterkind through both sheer combat advantage and destructive, unpredictable intention. Compound on this the tragedy of recent history, where King Asgore welcomed a human child into his own home as an adopted sibling to his own son, and even without any direct ill-will towards monsterkind, Chara still wrought terrible suffering on their people, furthered by the behaviour of the surface dwelling humans.
This is not to accredit more intelligence to Asgore's decision as a ruler than it has. But stupidity is no grounds for moral condemnation. Asgore's choice provided meaningful hope to monsterking, and within the scope of the info available to him his choice is completing commendable as a step towards protecting his people from insanely dangerous human drifters, who are on the whole considerably more destructive and selfish than the average monster. The icing on the cake is that Asgore's thorough collection of souls would have lead to the freeing of monsterkind from their, by all accounts, unjust imprisonment underground.
2) Respecting the will of another is not a breach of responsibility. Humans are much stronger in will and desire than monsters, and Toriel could not hope to overpower them in this quadrant. That she makes any attempt to halt Frisk at all is extremely brave and commendable for a monster.
The real fault on Toriel's part is abandoning her power, position, responsibility and authority as the queen of the monsters. By all
that’d be dope
break their morale
indications, Toriel was entirely in a position to significantly sway Asgore's mind and will in decision making, and in fact is stated as the "brains" behind the throne. Toriel knows better than anyone that Asgore is not the sharpest tool in the shed. Yet she chose to morally condemn someone for what is effectively a soft disability, and rather than working to improve the decision for the betterment of all monsters she instead abandons the rest of the underground to suffer the consequences of Asgore's folly. This is an act of reprehensible bigotry and total selfishness, which compromises Toriel's moral authority and reveals it as a shallow, surface-level affect towards the needs of others and not a profound bend towards perceptive harmony and justice. Ultimately, this trend completely pre-empts and foreshadows Toriel's predictable characterisation as a controlling hypocrite in Deltarune.
3) Protecting a community and fulfilling one's duty as a soldier and agent of the law, and a top-ranking agent no less, is not murder. Further, Undyine clearly has enormous reservations about fighting Frisk, constantly missing or throwing away opportunities to strike hard for fleeting reasons until the last chance, then throwing repeated bones to Frisk including removing her helmet and giving Frisk a small spear and teaching them to block her attacks. Undyne's mixed motivation - to protect her people, and to fulfill a life of universal glory - serves as a way for her to not harm a child she clearly likes. The moment Frisk helps Undyne, she backs off, and it takes almost no effort to crack Undyne's harsh exterior and earn her friendship.
4) Mettaton's actions probably do count as murder on a certain level. Note however than the proccess of converting Napstablook's cousin into Mettaton involved turning his heart-soul upside down and rendering it fundamentally more "human". Mettaton's actions are not reflective of a natural monster - like Flowey's, they are a product of
bastardisation and unnatural mutation. This in another chalk on Alphys' tally.
5) 100% correct, Alphys is tremendous abusive, deceitful, ruthless and alround wretched, and her attitude and mannerisms in no way mitigate the real damage she causes with her every scheme. By any sane account, Alphys deserves to at the very least face charges for extreme criminal neglect, medical atrocity, conspiratial levels of deceit and the knowing development of an autonomous genocide tool.
6) Muffet is never characterised as a good, sane or moral character. By all accounts, the spider monsters appear to be somewhat different to the rest of monsterkind, the same way that the Boss Monsters, tortoise monsters, skeleton monsters and ghost monsters have distinctive attributes.
7) No arguments here, but sans is deliberately a mysterious character implied to be involved in multiple timelines and even alternative universes. By all indications he is likely the mind and/or soul of WD Gaster reincarnated in a weaker body and as such has a mysterious agenda no doubt abnormal for a monster. We have no idea what he's up to, what he's truly capable of doing, and where his limits for intervention really lay.
8) The critical message throughout the entirety of Undertale is that monsters have a fundamental naivety, innocence and purity of their soul that oustrips even the sweetest of human children. Monsters are not stupid, nor are they necessarily irresponsible or "childish", but rather they simply don't entertain certain notions that are obvious to us pertaining social trust and security until it's far too late, because the feelings, wills, desires and agendas inherent in such behaviours are alien to monsters and they cannot comprehend them. Undyne is motivated to be a warrior for the magnificence of the role and the hope and glory it gives to the people of the Underground. Asgore is one of only two known survivors of the human-monster war, and maintains his
strength as a grim, dour matter of knowing how strong he has to be to remotely stand a chance in combat with a human. Mettaton is an artifical metal killing machine built by Alphys, and Alphys is, well, Alphys. Everyone else has no idea what's going with fighting and combat, and treats it like a friendly play exercise. They don't seem to comprehend how dangerous their "bullets" are to Frisk's soul, and they can be conversed with and won over in the midst of an armed conflict in a way that would be impossible for humans. They also completely misunderstand the nature and intention or simple lethality behind a human's attack until they're dead, and even then other monsters witnessing a human attack don't seem to understand what's happening. It takes the steadily mounting genocide of the entire underground to prompt a cognitive response in the form of evacuations, flight, and Undyne the Undying to make the mass of monsters even comprehend what they'e dealing with. Most monsters have no clue what just happened to their entire civilisation and race in the event of a neutral or pacifist ending. Toriel, who should be about as wise as any other monster on the natures of humans, doesn't realise the bloodlust of the player in a Genocide run until the moment they're fatally wounded.
This huge cognitive blindspot comprehensives voids monsterkind from almost ANY judgement by human standards of adult responsibility. Monsters simply cannot take even a fraction of a human's knowledge of the nature of good and evil for granted. Frisk, a child, is about as morally culpable for the events in the underground as any monster encountered. And even then, Frisk is merely an empty vessel for you. Whatever happens is on your shoulders.
9) Papyrus is exceedingly good and pure by human standards, and decidedly above-average by monster standards. He is also even less intelligent than Asgore, although he is less impulsive and thoughtless to compensate. (Papyrus
You're definitely not supposed to want to kill Mettaton.
First of all, he's Alphys' best friend, but also he's such an entertaining character that why would you WANT to kill him?
thinks a lot, but they're not very smart thoughts). This is likely because Papyrus is the body and/or soul of WD Gaster, and as such has an unnaturally pure, strong and unintelligent nature even by monster standards, being mostly a vessel waiting to be inhabited by a stronger power. Papyrus's role as an inspiring hero to his fellow monsters, and a sacrificial lamb to a genocide playthrough, make him a paragon of moral virtue and an example of how a dimwit can still triumph.
In summary, you can't apply human morality to monsters on pretty much any level, and even if you did the actions of Asgore and Undyne are 100% commendable, while only Alphys comes off as reprehensible by human standards. All of this misses the point that monsters are different to humans, and the value of the game as a lens into what humans can do when presented with a situation that lets them gratify a destructive urge at the cost of a community carefully contrived to be by-all-means morally unaccountable.
Fuck off Bettaton.
TIL that I can type "by all means", "by all counts", "by all considerations", "by all standards" and similar such phrasings an awful lot without realising it. Anyway, have a cute Noel.
iirc you can just beat most random encounters until they're ready to be spared.
I bumped the thread nearly half an hour, and my post is gone. What's up with that?
I love how they handled it in Deltarune. Instead of enemies standing around like morons until they're killed, they'll actually flee if they take enough damage. This seriously should've been in Undertale, especially with the kind of message that game was trying to tell.
Holy crap that was a lot. Nice writeup, user
This is correct, and one of basic idiot filters of the game for discussion. If someone acts like the game punishes you for self-defense or being at all willing to and capable of violence under some set of circumstances, they obviously no nothing about the game and their views can be disregarded. A perfect pacifist ending is 100% compatible with winning EVERY encounter with maximal violence shy of actually killing on your part. Every loseable-fight enemy except for the Amalgamates can be ended peaceably by beating them until they're health is low and then sparing them or fleeing as with Undyne.
Look up the day Kermit went nuclear for an example into how deep the Undertale misnfo and ignorance runs.
It's all for the readers dood. I wouldn't write this stuff up anyway but Yea Forums, all other environments are sterile and the feedback loops are corrupt. Now I'm going to take a shower.
You're supposed to attempt pacifist and accidentally kill Toriel, then reload.
based
>Papyrus
>Will beat a child an inch away from death and (attempts to) lock them in a shed.
Not pure.
Also, it’s hypocritical to defend Asgore and not Alphys. They’re in the same boat of stupidity and cowardice, just on different levels. Both are bad.
Best boy?
Best boy.
> alphys
Gaster did all that, or at least did the fusion experiments. When he removed himself from existence someone else was retroactively pulled into the gap in causality.
But the rest is true.