What the fuck is wrong with the US

the author hasn't speculated a lot so far but he seems to believe the Family were unwilling guinea pigs for MKULTRA guys.
I keep trying to stop thinking about Inherent Vice but it almost feels like a reader to IV.
Will check both.

that being said, it's perfectly possible they were both guinea pigs and blackwash attempts, and it's sure as fuck very weird how a barely literate guy could somehow brainwash people into complete submission, a lot of what the author has asked so far is where did Mansion acquire that knowledge.

Aggressive authoritarians are the ones pushing us towards WWIII, not those resisting them

>a lot of what the author has asked so far is where did Mansion acquire that knowledge.

In the first volume of Sinister Forces by Peter Levenda, there is a passing mention of Manson (while being housed in MKULTRA connected facility) meeting a mysterious figure who taught him about hypnotism techniques and the like.
Unfortunately he doesn't go in to it any further, and that book is the only mention I can find regarding this supposed event despite trying to find corroborative sources.
Also worth mentioning that Levenda is if not a glowie himself adjacent to, and connected with, that world, so take this very flimsy reference for whatever its worth.

I don't think there's any problem in spoiling a non-fiction book but O'Neill actually finds some very spooky glowshit around Manson's parole officer - when investigating why Manson and the Family were free from repercussion from breaking paroles.
Turns out the guy was also volunteering in a Free Clinic in Haight-Ashbury while doing studies on the relation of amphetamines and violent behaviour on humans for the government. Similar studies were being conducted by the clinic's owner, studies which were burglarized after the Tate-LaBianca murders and neither of those two guys were the glowiest motherfucker there.
There was this dude named Jolly West who has to be a Pynchon character brought to life, the man was the first psychiatrist who declared Jack Ruby insane, the man testified in Patti Hearst's trial, there is actual correspondence from him to MKULTRA's director, he even fucking died of supercancer.

I'd love to Stan them but I'd get crap for it

When people talk about CIA plots, I think they often reduce the nefarious deeds down to simply "the CIA did it" and lose the details. There's a mistaken idea that this stuff happens because someone comes up to you and says: "ehehehe, let's engage in an evil plot." That's not how it works. More like... it's about relationships, suggestions, and planting the equivalent of little bugs in people's ears (metaphorically speaking) tuned to different "frequencies" so when it's time, the people in the right place at the right time weren't *told* to do it, but did it on their *own* initiative. And then shots ring out in a certain time and place, and the state says, who knows what really happened?

It wouldn't be the first time it has happened involving an interlocking network of official functionaries, spies, mercenaries, ex-generals, profiteers and superpatriots who for a variety of reasons -- but sometimes cohering and pointing in the same direction -- operate outside the official channels of government. Presidents have turned to them when they can't win the support of Congress or the public, creating a kind of unsupervised power to the point that it's now a self-financing, self-perpetuating organization. But what would happen if a president couldn't control them? Or became their public enemy no. 1?

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NO NO NO

Alphabet agencies are good now because they investigated Drumpf and stopped the greatest terror attack in history, Jan 6…. only a traitor or a Russian spy would disagree

YAAAAAAS we’re building back better any day now!

>But what would happen if a president couldn't control them? Or became their public enemy no. 1?
I mean there are countless examples of what happens, including at least one (two if we count Nixon) in the US.

Now that you mention it.

(1)
>LaRouche began writing in 1973 about the use of certain psychological techniques on recruits. In an article called "Beyond Psychoanalysis", he wrote that a worker's persona had to be stripped away to arrive at a state he called "little me", from which it would be possible to "rebuild their personalities around a new socialist identity", according to The Washington Post. The New York Times wrote that the first such session—which LaRouche called "ego-stripping"—involved a German member, Konstantin George, in the summer of 1973. LaRouche said that during the session he discovered that a plot to assassinate him had been implanted in George's mind.

(2)
>Through dogged work, the LaRouche organization has assembled a worldwide network of contacts in governments and in military agencies who meet regularly and swap information with them, officials and former members said.

>In Washington, the LaRouche group has spent the last several years currying favor with officials of the NSC, CIA, Defense Intelligence Agency, Drug Enforcement Administration, the military and numerous other agencies, as well as with defense scientists doing classified research, according to federal officials and ex-members of the LaRouche group.

[...]

>An NBC documentary in March disclosed the LaRouche group's contacts with NSC and CIA officials, and in November The New Republic magazine published an article by reporters Dennis King and Ronald Radosh that detailed LaRouche's Washington connections ... LaRouche associates also have been active for years in West Germany, France, Italy, Mexico, Argentina, India, Thailand and many other countries, according to LaRouche-tied publications, ex-LaRouche associates and former government officials. The group has had dealings with a number of foreign government and military officials, according to these sources.

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Intelligence agencies are super powerful and determine all aspects of culture but can't stop intrepid journalists from exposing the truth. God bless America.

No one itt claimed either of those things. If anything, my main concern with the CIA is due to the fact that they all seem to be complete freaks with absolutely no idea of what they're trying to do or how to cover shit up, people this greedy and stupid shouldn't have so much power.

How stupid can they be if they keep getting away with it. They're clever enough to successfully "psy op" the public but not smart enough to not release documents that point out how le bad they are.

>not smart enough to not release documents that point out how le bad they are.
on the very book in OP the author discusses how at least one MKULTRA report was disclosed not only redacted, but straight up missing entire chapters. They'll release whatever they feel like whenever someone manages to force them to do so, whistleblowers are far more important than disclosed documents when it comes to investigating their shadyness.
Also it's not like there haven't been conspiracy press around these topics since the experiments were still happening, just check Mae Brussell and her cohort of nuts.

Mae Brussell the conspiracy theorist from, err, Beverly Hills, whose father, wiki tells me, "was considered one of the most prominent Jewish leaders in the United States, sometimes called the "Rabbi to the Stars" because of his close connections to the Hollywood film industry". She had some mindblowing takes, get this: the US establishment... are freakin' nazis!
p.s. I do find it kinda funny that these researchers base their views on what the CIA is, the scary psy op guys, based on documents the CIA choose to release and testimony from ex-CIA members. Why not just make fake documents and create fake whistleblowers.

this post glows

So you're telling me that there weren't any nazis or nazi sympathizers working for the US government after the end of World War II?

Insightful user. I do in fact work for the Central Intelligence Agency.
Operation Paperclip bruh, those freakin Nahtzee scientists. McCarthyism, dark days...

So, there were indeed nazi scientists. What about the Gehlen Organization, was that also fictional nazis that never worked with the US? What about De Mohrenschildt, was he just a regular russian noble who wound up entangled in the glowiest shit ever?

>Intelligence agencies are super powerful and determine all aspects of culture
Well that's where people get into cranktown about Bill Gates microchip drones where they don't even the psyop treatment because they psyop themselves, which is the point.

Like you see this when people are talking about various "dissident" types (on left and right) who are talking about something about the U.S. government which they don't like. "But why are they allowed to keep saying that? If they really posed a challenge to 'the system,' shouldn't they be dead already?"

But that's not how that works. Measures of control can be both brutal and subtle, and the management of the subtle side involves plenty of fakery and agents and disinformation to pollute the streams of information so the people you don't want driving the agenda... don't.

The curious thing about most popular conspiracy theories is that at their root they're patriotic. The good ol' USA is always subverted by nefarious external elements, German rocket scientists, Frankfurt Schoolers, Putin's puppet in the White House, etc.
Whoa, this guy has gone DEEP in his research. I'm refuted, the US establishment truly is run by Nazis. The proof is in the pudding.

I just did a deep dive on the 60s and get this: the CIA invented hippies to psy op young people into getting stoned and having sex.

I'm not a patriot, I'm not even american, and no one said anything about subversion. If anything, the american establishment was always pro-nazi, the Dulles' were already recruiting nazis before the end of the war, it's not subversion, just continuation or transference.
Again, first you said there were no nazis working in the US government, then there were, then there were more but I'm wrong on my research because you said so.
Again, this isn't a thing anyone ITT or even the book claims. You're not helping your cause here bud.

It's just typical cope for not wanting to take responsibility

>deranged commie shots president
>NOOOO IT WAS THE CIA/MOB USING MULTIPLE SHOOTERS AND DOUBLE ACTORS

>deranged drug addicted flower children break into rich people houses and murder them to stick it to the man
>NOOOO IT WAS SIDNEY GOTTLIEB

Fuck off putler shill

>The curious thing about most popular conspiracy theories is that at their root they're patriotic.
Well, it's like in physics. In a closed system, matter remains constant (like in our universe) but can change form through physical or chemical changes. The same is true for countries. So conspiracy theories can be a way of "letting off some steam," or transferring a problem by externalizing it. Russiagate is basically a conspiracy theory, but it's one with mainstream support and acceptance that externalized the Trump problem for his political opponents.

Most people don't want to turn traitor, either. If you're an American learning about what the CIA has historically been up to in, say, Latin America, it probably shouldn't make you hate your country. But it might help you understand why there's a lot of people in Latin America who are not big fans of the U.S. government.

Philip Agee is an interesting story though. He was a CIA case officer who went all the way and defected to Cuba. Wrote a bunch of books. But his point, or what he came to believe, is that he had wrong ideas about communism; namely that it was always externally-imposed. The belief that it was just an extension of Soviet power provided the mental detour that could then justify intervention, but he believed it and did his job until his actual practical experience taught him that the targets weren't so much Soviet communists but any movement that opposes the free flow of capital from poor countries to rich countries, no matter their ideology (communist, nationalist, social-democratic, etc.).

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HOLY SHIT GUYS THOMAS PYNCHON JUST FLEW OVER MY HOUSE

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>deranged commie shots president
Well, like I said, in those days, communism was typically seen as an extension of Soviet power, which justified intervention wherever there were "commies." That doesn't work when a "commie" shoots the prezzy, though, because that would mean war with the Soviets. So it's necessary that he "acted alone" and was just "crazy."

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>But that's not how that works. Measures of control can be both brutal and subtle, and the management of the subtle side involves plenty of fakery and agents and disinformation to pollute the streams of information so the people you don't want driving the agenda... don't.
I get this, but if the CIA being le sinister baddies is an open, Netflix-approved, secret. Why resort to petty disinfo to discredit threats when you can just bump 'em off and call anyone who believes that a tinfoil hatter, if you have that level of influence. I think the CIA are probably perfectly happy with their present reputation. Just as mafias are happy that people know they kill snitches.

Did you ever think we would get to the point where people would go on Yea Forums to defend the CIA?

>first you said there were no nazis working in the US government
No I didn't, go back and read. I mocked the idea that "The US government is nazi". Which is laughable. Are there any people with socialist sympathies in the US government? More than there are Nazis is my bet. But that doesn't mean the US gubbermint are fuggin gommunists mang.

The CIA is awesome they keep me safe from nazis and leninists

anything can happen on le contrarian Yea Forums. if reddit and the wide mainstream started actively hating on trannies en masse this place would shelter them and talk about how traps were actually always channel cultcha etc

These pieces work together. So let's say you've set up shop in a country and are trying to attack a group, and there's another group with the same ideology but some differences in interpretation. They could be communists, they could be Timbuktu separatists, or the Hyperborean Traditionalist Front and some similar groups that are part of that same movement. Ideology isn't important here.

So you create some disinfo, fake stuff, from other group attacking the other. Or you're even more subtle about it, and get to know someone in one group who expressed some frustrations about the targeted group, or has some difference of opinion with them (which you've identified), and whisper in his ear. Encourage him. Tell me more about those guys who are "holding us back." What are their names? And the poor dupe starts talking, and that's an asset. Then one day those guys disappear.

The CIA have so much power they can steer national discourse - but can't stop Netflix talking about MKUltra - yet they're engaged in an eternal, intricate struggle to discredit their critics*. They have to construct psy ops to justify what they do, manufacturing consent (read Chomsky brah) via psy ops. The implicit message of this kind of thinking is: democracy works... Heroic muckracking journalists making glowies seethe with their NYT bestselling hits! People power! If the people cottoned on to what's up, there'd be hell to pay! lol. Like WaPo etc thinking that some fat rednecks having heart attacks in the foyer of the Capitol Building was a genuine coup attempt that could've led to the fall of the US government. The true message of conspiracy theory is: the government isn't strong enough and needs more funding less nefarious groups infiltrate it.

*who? serious question. i think the notion that any group in the US is a threat to the establishment is hilarious. outside of genuine mass murdering terrorists and idiots who plan such things (entrapped or otherwise), i believe they crack down on certain groups purely because they find them ideologically distasteful, not because they're remotely a threat, e.g. livestreamer Fuentes getting banned (by nazi establishment) from flying and having his bank accounts frozen.

> i believe they crack down on certain groups purely because they find them ideologically distasteful, not because they're remotely a threat, e.g. livestreamer Fuentes getting banned (by nazi establishment) from flying and having his bank accounts frozen.
see enlightened user, the only reason why I don't believe this is because I factually know this, because fucking journalists have helped expose shit like COINTELPRO, Chaos, Minaret and so on

>t MKUltra - yet they're engaged in an eternal, intricate struggle to discredit their critics*. They have to construct psy ops to justify what they do, manufacturing consent (read Chomsky brah) via psy ops. The implicit message of this kind of thinking is: democracy works... Heroic muckracking journalists making glowies seethe with their NYT bestselling hits! People power! If the people cottoned on to what's up, there'd be hell to pay! lol.
Also these are your own conclusions, the only reason why I read about this sort of shit is precisely because I don't believe capitalist democracies work and neither does the CIA, apparently.
Like, no one, not even the agency themselves, makes any effort to deny the countless millions of deaths their meddling has caused around the world. What makes you think they wouldn't pull the same shit inside US territory?

I think this is true and certainly applies outside the US where groups unfriendly to US interests are genuine threats to their influence in the region, just as it'd be in the interest of the Rooshians and Chinese to support "anti-imperialist" groups in the US. I find it less convincing domestically, not that the same playbook CANT be applied and has NEVER been applied but I just don't think the situation is quite the same where USgov power and influence is not as precarious. To those who disagree, I ask: who is a real domestic threat to the US establishment? I can't think of a non-LARP answer.
>fucking journalists have helped expose shit like COINTELPRO, Chaos, Minaret and so on
Once again, what if the CIA don't mind these things being known? What harm does it do them?

>Once again, what if the CIA don't mind these things being known? What harm does it do them?
I don't know how wrong you are but the biggest question is why they stopped caring. Even though it's been documented since the 70s, up until as far as the early 2000s there was a clear push for making the MKULTRA stuff sound a lot smaller than it was, then suddenly they seemingly stopped caring.
I have to assume it has to do with people still being alive, but as soon as the guiltier ones die it's all good. But at the same time you see the shit they pull with Snowden or Assange or the crack wars book guy, the information leaked in those cases wasn't supposed to come out yet and there were clear repercussions.
Hell, think if Biden going "huhhh we can't release this jfk shit guys sorry", who the fuck is even still alive connected to that, Oswald was like one of the youngest and he'd be 98 I think.

JFK...

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As if this place wasn't backed by glowmoney

>COINTELPRO, Chaos, Minaret and so on
Imagine thinking those things were bad. I'm glad I have the NSA and surveillance constantly protecting me and fuck all you disgusting loons who want to abolish mass surveillance which will leave me defenceless from Lenin and nazis.

>I don't believe capitalist democracies work and neither does the CIA, apparently.
i.e. establishment power is precarious and without endless "psy ops" an external force would topple it:
>The People get woke and see thru the psy ops (thanks podcasters), and overthrow the freakin Nazis in Washington = People Power! Paper Tigers! Democracy works! Keep podcasting guys, we'll get there!
or
>The Sinister External Baddies overthrow our liberty-loving representatives = WE NEED MORE FUNDS! WE HAVE TO COMBAT MISINFO!
My controversial view is the people in power would benefit from both views being promoted.
And yeah, as a world power it's good to let enemies know you're willing to fuck them up big time. Such a reputation doesn't harm them remotely.
I gotta run now (boss at Langley is calling). Shalom.

>And they’re enabling the current WWIII threat right now.

No sorry, Russia is mostly doing that, with the tradlarper faggots they support. Or do they? Maybe the tradlarpers are double agents, so maybe the CIA did them good again

That Hideous Strength, N.I.C.E.

>The CIA is based
No

the CIA IS nazis

>to those who disagree, I ask: who is a real domestic threat to the US establishment? I can't think of a non-LARP answer.
This is where I get more philosophical. Like, you can pull things from post-WWII theory about how there's no such thing as a counterculture today or "outsider" position. It's like the joke about how punks and goths are expressing that "outsider" position through buying stuff at the punk/goth store in the mall which makes them the ultimate conformists. So applied to ideology, people who are "against the establishment" end up being doomed as well to be immersed, incorporated or commodified so resistance is futile.

It's like the Borg.

So instead of providing an answer to your question, I think it's better to answer by raising another question. If we really do live in the Borg (or The Matrix etc.) where all resistance has been neutralized and impossible because all is LARP, then you start to see how the dictatorship within the democracy functions. Or this works to the extent that people continue to believe in it, and the people in the Matrix or the Borg drones probably didn't think they were living in a "computer simulation" either.

>Once again, what if the CIA don't mind these things being known? What harm does it do them?
Well, there's also a term for this called "limited hangout" which is the selective release of information. When their veil of secrecy is shredded and they can no longer rely on a phony cover story to misinform the public, they resort to admitting some of the truth while managing to withhold the key facts in the case.

There was a documentary recently called Wormwood which alleged this is what MKULTRA was, like dosing people with LSD. The filmmakers, and the son of a government scientist who was dosed and then committed "suicide" back in the 50s by jumping out of a hotel window alleged that their father had worked on a bacteriological weapons program which was used in the Korean War (and probably other places like Cuba). Like reactivated Unit 731 stuff, insect bombs dropped to destroy crops, etc. and he became unreliable, so he was dosed one day, had no idea what was happening, so they put him up in a hotel for his "safety" while they arranged for an agency shrink to visit him, and then a second group -- compartmentalized from the first group which arranged his stay -- arrived (probably some Mafia guys) and then they threw him out of the window.

Seymour Hersh broke the MKULTRA story in 70s about the LSD "mind control" experiments. He's in the documentary, and he said he was basically duped, that what he was given about MKULTRA wasn't really what happened, but he didn't say what I just said happened to that scientist is what really happened. My theory, though, is that if he did say that, people would know who told him that, and the reason why he has survived as a journalist as long as he has is because his sources trust him not to blow their cover, so he's not going to say it.

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Or to put it another way, it's not that "all is LARP so join the establishment," it's more like... the only way to be subversive or critical today is to flip its Borg-like logic around. I see this in critical art which at least points in this direction. Or take the establishment more seriously than it does itself -- if the key to its Borg-like functioning is to absorb people who think they're outsiders into it or adopt that as a posture so they flatter their own self-regard as being a "domestic threat" when the reality is anything but. Or I was thinking of how the Enterprise crew defeats the Borg cube by recapturing Locutus and gaining information from him and finding a way to reverse the assimilation process.

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loved the book
BUT
some of O'Neill's theories are too big of a stretch
he claims the intelligence community artificially engineered the entire counter-culture of the 60s
WUT

also he believes the thoroughly deboonked claims the US used chemical weapons in Korea

old evil in the soil. whatever causes america's modern madness is same cause of old indian bloodlust and curelty