Can only spam clones

Nice meme, He mastered the rasengan in a week and created the rasenshuriken a jutsu not even Minato one of if not the most talented shinobi in history could do. Stop shitposting I don't even think Naruto as a series is that good but the argument that he was supposed and portrayed to be untalented was and always will be retarded. I mean he saved the entire village from the one tails at age 12.

>He mastered the rasengan in a week and created the rasenshuriken a jutsu not even Minato one of if not the most talented shinobi in history could do.
He cheated by using shadow clones because he had the chakra pool to do so.

>He cheated by using shadow clones because he had the chakra pool to do so.
That's not cheating that's just one of the many ways he was talented kek. Also he only needed to do that because of the nine tails seal if you notice once he removed the seal in the war he was able to do all his jutsu one handed without the need of a clone or chakra arms even sasuke commented on how insane his chakra control was.

I think rather than Naruto being a bad student, it was Jiraya being a shit teacher. I mean WTF, why didn't he teach him about ELEMENTAL AFFINITIES!? I mean sure, it was probably a retcon or something, but in retrospect it seems absolutely ridiculous that someone had to teach him something as basic as that.

>I think rather than Naruto being a bad student, it was Jiraya being a shit teacher. I mean WTF, why didn't he teach him about ELEMENTAL AFFINITIES!?
Yeah I dunno what Jiraiya was doing, I think it was implied that Jiraiya was focusing on him mastering the nine tails but that failed and ended up just fucking him over since he loosened the seal so much.

Kishimoto obviously intended to point out that he was not talented, just hard working. Like Rock Lee, except he had backup from kyuubi and dumb luck on his side.

Not that user, but I think the issue is less about whether or not Naruto "cheats", but rather about stuff like the whole "bloodline issue" with Neiji. Although we did indeed have a lot of foreshadowing that Naruto is more than he seems, it just felt so cheap how after making a huge speech of "overcoming destinity" or "defying fate" it turns out that Naruto is "the chosen one" and Neji ended up doing EXACTLY what his destiny entailed (sacrifice for main family) with the rather laughable excuse of "MUH did it by my own will tho!"

>Kishimoto obviously intended to point out that he was not talented
Nice headcanon, Kakashi literally says during the training that Naruto is the only person in the world talented enough to surpass Minato stop coping. And lets not forgot right after that he goes and masters Sage Mode something Jiraiya couldn't even do in a matter of weeks.

>Although we did indeed have a lot of foreshadowing that Naruto is more than he seems, it just felt so cheap how after making a huge speech of "overcoming destinity" or "defying fate" it turns out that Naruto is "the chosen one" and Neji ended up doing EXACTLY what his destiny entailed (sacrifice for main family) with the rather laughable excuse of "MUH did it by my own will tho!"
Yeah I can agree with this the entire last half of the war arc in general was fucking retarded and pretty bad. I just hate when people blatantly ignore that fact that Naruto was always jesus tier talented since chapter 1.

>A-amazing, he’s conjuring water from the air with his chakra
>S-so t-this is the power of the legendary hokage
>Then we get jutsus that warp time and space, black flames that never extinguish and gravity pulls

Taking naruto ball Z seriously Kek

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>He can literally control every chakra nature as well as 5 kekkei genkai.
why can he do this

Because Hagaromo gave him six paths sage mode which give him knowledge on all things chakra.
Also the tailed beasts all gave him pieces of their chakra which allows him to use their kekkei genkai.

He had the worst tai jutsu, still don’t understand how Sasuke was wailing on him the last fight, ffs he didn’t even look competent

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For some reason he chose not to use frog kata which lets him get a direct hit with all his CQC moves even if he misses. Would’ve probably ended the fight in the first 30 seconds since Sasuke had never seen it and special eyes can’t predict it

sasuke had his father teaching him the traditional uchiha jutsu, probably

Will Samurai 8 be better?

Naruto isn't an interesting protagonist, Neji is better.

>He had the worst tai jutsu

His Taijutsu was one of his strongest points

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This is honestly probably the best explanation. I doubt they teach offensive ranged jutsu in what was essentially grade school.

In terms of story planning, absolutely.

Kishi is working just with the story and his assistant working with the drawnings

>How was Naruto an underdog
You know, Kishi really did a great job exposing all the brainlets in the anime community. Naruto was never an underdog and it was never even implied that he was one. By the time the fight against Neji had rolled around, Naruto had already mastered a Jounin level, forbidden jutsu and was able to create a thousand clones at once, something not even Kage could do. He was called "interesting" by Orochimaru in the forest, and learned how to summon a skyscraper sized toad. The same toad that compared him to Minato in the same chapter/episode. Add the fact that everybody knew that Naruto was the fourths son by chapter 25 or something, and only the mentally stunted would think that Kishimoto painted Naruto as an underdog.

You are the all knowing reader. You have all this information. Yet you still underestimate the character and think that he "shouldn't" win. Villagers underestimating him is natural. They haven't seen anything that you've been shown. Neji being unaware of his ability is logical, too, since the amount of information he has access to is equal to the rest of the villagers. Kishimoto made it very clear that Naruto was strong, talented, that his lack of skill came from the Kyuubi being sealed inside him and not an inherent inability. By the time Neji gave his speach you should have known that the people he was refering to were no other than Naruto and his family. Nauto's entire existence as Jinchuuriki made him the chosen one from chapter 1 onward.

Naruto was never an underdog. That's merely the brainlets headcanon because, despite their position as the all knowing reader, they still take dialogue at face value. If you were shown for X to be able to do A, and then read Y say that X can't do A, then you'd probably also say
>well, X can't do A, that's what the characters said lol

Despite ridiculing the series every chance you people get, Naruto is, and always has been, too complicated for your kind. Poor Kishimoto.

That still doesn’t make sense for Naruto to be that incompetent, sasuke wasn’t using gimmicks with his tai

Both should’ve been fairly equal

>By the time the fight against Neji had rolled around, Naruto had already mastered a Jounin level

No. Anyone can do this and they chose not to because they aren't retards, all of naruto's clone are weak as shit, it's just for show.

This is a new level of shitposting

>>retarded orange jumpsuit, Iruka has more swag than him

Do you really not know what a jumpsuit actually looks like? Embarrassing

Naruto's clones win almost every single one of his fights, not to mention they allowed him to do years worth of work in a few days. I'd say Naruto's ability with clones is pretty respectable especially considering his inherent disadvantage when it comes to performing chakra control

Nice new pasta

>anybody can do it
>nobody does, Kakashi even outright says that not even Minato could do it
>they choose to not do it
Hehe. Once again Naruto proves to be too complicated for the average Yea Forumsnon. Please tell me you're a fan of Lain.

Naruto learned nothing but rasengan variation and cloning, bland as fuck powers. He bullshited his way to victory mostly with talk no jutsu.

>rasengan variation
But that one jutsu was so strong it was classified as forbidden.

That stuff happened at the end of the Pain arc when Kishimoto was thinking about making Naruto competent. Then he backpedaled at some point.

>He bullshited his way to victory mostly with talk no jutsu
Do you simply refuse to read the series you're shit talking about? What fights did he win through talk no jutsu? He beat Nagato, Obito, Sauce, Neji, Zombieman etc. Talking to them afterwards is not winning by talking, brainlet. He had already won by the time he talked.

The problem with naruto is how goofy he is and the limited amount of jutsus he masters be fore the pain arc. Sure he had large chakra reserves but what exactly was he doing with them besides spamming clones and throwing chakra balls? If he learned some basic wind techniques it would’ve made for a more well rounded character and actually have something to counter sasukes lightning nature which could have made some badass fights. Kishimoto dropped the ball with that one

I dont think it was that impressive that he mastered the shadow clone jutsu. Mastering the shadow clone jutsu was easy for him because he had so much chakra even without the nine tails which also happen to be the reason why he couldn't use regular clones since he used so much chakra in the jutsu that it practically overloaded and gave him a flinsy clone. The only reason it's forbidden is because most people simply don't have the chakra capacity to create many clones without risking chakra exhaustion.

The point where I really want "Oh fuck off" is when "Yeah What my Shadow Clones experience I learn it too"

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why does the villain have a lolipop in his mouth....

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Naruto.

Nah you just need something above 80 sadly 90% of Yea Forums doesn't even have that.

>tai jutsu literally consists of punching people in the face
and he's better than Lee
Is this your first shounen? There's a show where a normal kid beats city-busting threats by just punching them a couple times in the face.

This post was meant to be a shitpost but,
>Married the most beautiful girl from Konoha
means you're unironically based user sorry you ruined your bait

literally nothing he did matters, he ended up with the best girl in the end and that's all that counts

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>can literally control every chakra nature
No, that's his son. Other than wind, anything else is him getting that power from an outside source, IE tailed beasts. He still has chakra from the 1 tails even in Baruto.

>5 kekkei genkai
That's not how it works. There are too many stupid posts like this in this thread that just aren't responding too any more.

At least he knows more moves than Ichigo, but even Ichigo isn't as much of a dumbshit as Naruto. Naruto is still jobbing as the Hokage, its sad.

Well, they are not for show, they can do a good deal of damage if they aren't destroyed first. The main reason people don't use it is because first not many people actually know about it and just 1 shadow clone uses a lot of chakra, and Naruto just has absurd amounts of it.

I would say all of those cept Pain is true, he could have still beat the shit out of Naruto or summoned Madara at that point, and he still had Konan with him as well.

The thing that makes no sense is he had a harder time creating a regular clone than a shadow clone even just after he read the scroll. But not like that matters much.

Remember Naruto is retarded, but I am surprised Jiriya didn't teach him any of that shit during the time skip.

He's not better than Lee in tai jutsu. Even in Baruto, Sauce still is no match for Lee in just plain tai jutsu.

When did Sasuke fight Lee in pure taijutsu?

>The thing that makes no sense is he had a harder time creating a regular clone than a shadow clone even just after he read the scroll. But not like that matters much.
But it makes sense. A normal clone require a certain amount of chakra or it goes to shit. A Shadowclone doesn't require actual management. It just splits your chakra in half and you don't need to control shit.

>Other than wind, anything else is him getting that power from an outside source,
This is just wrong.

I guess, it not like they explain the exact mechanism of how the chakra is managed for each jutsu.

But they did in this particular case...

Naruto might be simple-minded, but he's nowhere near stupid, and this is evident in basically all of his really important battles. He’s outsmarted neji, zabuza and kakuzu.

But in the course of 500 episodes (the original and Shippuden combined) he had used nothing but two jutsu.

TWO FREAKING JUTSU


Shadow Clone Jutsu

Rasengan

Ignoring summoning because it is a technique, not a jutsu. The only things in his arsenal are the same jutsu's mentioned above or some form of variation of it. Just adding some basic wind techniques would’ve made it more engaging for the audience.

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Its the shounen curse where everyone else in the world has crazy and interesting powers but the MC is limited to one or two attacks are usually amount to hitting hard. Literally happens in every series.

that usually amount to hitting harder *
Had a stroke.

it's because writing interesting powers consistently is fucking hard. Manga authors already work like 100 hour work weeks they can't be bothered to fix it (unless they're Araki)

He did a lot of shit in Sage Mode, like frog kata and the stuff his summons would do with him

>Kakuzu
No, the author made him stupid. Ninja with decades of experience falling for a simple clone trick? Please.

No, they just mention it is split between the clones, not HOW it was actually split.

Arent clones supposed to be a high level technique? Like there's more substance to shadow clones? I think I remember characters commenting on that

>b-but that doesn't count
lel

Wasn't there whole arc there Naruto learned to synchronise with frogs to use water jutsu to counter sasukes fire elemement? Lol who cares? Just use tailed chakra magnetic magma rasenshuriken variatian nr.586.

Honestly, shit like this makes me wish he used weapons more often. Not to mention all those color spreads with unique crazy shit. Him with the brush, sakura with the twin axes, sasuke with the flute/kusarigama, etc. Real missed opportunity there.

>the most versatile jutsu in the series
>not wearing the least likely ninja color to make your enemies second guess you
>punching people in the face is bad, not like even Sakura can desintegrate a mountain with a shitty fist
>needing range when you're faster than lighting

Logical people: Naruto is the most privileged cunt in the entire series.

>Reincarnated from a demi-god
>Was given half of another demi-god's power
>Had Clifford the Big Red Dog inside his gullet
>The son of one of the most talented shinobi of all time (Minato) and one of the most prodigious Uzumaki Clan members
>Is a direct descendant of a clan that particularly excelled at fuinjutsu
>His own chakra reserves and fucking stamina are god-tier, many times stronger than Kakashi (a talented Jonin and child prodigy), which allows him to basically tank every attack more experienced and talented ninja throw at him. Naruto wins 95% of his fights because he has more stamina.
>Distantly related to Senju, who are also god-tier ninja
>Has Clifford's massive chakra pool so he can conjure thousands of clones, even though he wastes twice as much chakra to conjure one clone than Sakura or Sasuke
>Survived numerous times against superior and actually talented ninja (Haku, Neji, Gaara, Pain, Obito, and Madara) because of Clifford
>Has Clifford's massive chakra pool to summon massive ass toads the size of Shukaku
>Has Clifford's massive chakra pool to cheat his way to learning Rasenshuriken and Sennin Mode
>Was taught by many of the strongest actual ninja in the world, only because of Clifford and the threat Akatsuki posed
>Was specifically assigned to the most talented Jonin in the village because of Clifford
>Was taught by a Sannin because of Clifford
>Was taught by a god toad because of Clifford
>Was taught by Gyuki and Killer B because of Clifford
>Only one that could stop Kisame and Zetsu because of Clifford
>Was given asspull after asspull multiple times throughout the series

Narutard logic:
>He's an underdog because everybody looked down on him and he made Kurama's power his own.

The REAL underdog in this series is Iruka, who is everything Naruto was if he had NONE of Naruto's special privileges. Was a shit ninja who never made a name for himself.

I too watched that youtube video

No one is denying he was privileged retard, the point is the series never hyped him up to be anything different and this whole untalented underdog story is fabricated by dumbass readers that read the Lee fight and thought it was the theme for the entire series. The only aspect of Naruto that is a underdog story is Naruto himself being forced to prove that he is ninja jesus to everyone.

tooo beeee hoooneeeestttttt, naruto could've performed great with chakra mode mixed with perfect sage mode and still be OP. He suddenly acquiring all things chakra is an asspull beyond fairy tale tier.

that's not a controversial opinion, everyone knows the powerscaling went fucking stupid after the pain arc

>beyond fairy tale tier.
Thats a bit too far kek.

His gimmick is thay he talks to people

>He bullshited his way to victory mostly with talk no jutsu.

True, although when he fought Delta, they showed how Naruto should have actually been in Shippuden.
In Shippuden was all TNJ, but in Boruto he genuely wanted to murder Delta. and he did.

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Kakashi did it and he had a weak as shit Chakra supply because of his sharingan.

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Reminder that worst of naruto > best of one piece

Based

Marry, rape, kill?

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ignore them all, marry Hinata

Those are all regular clones, it was 100% a bluff. He was actually so exhausted he could barely stand after that fight.

>Kishi gave all the girls big boobs
>gave Sakura small ones

Why did he hate her so much?

I really really like Sakura's body type
Maybe I'm the only one

She looks a lot better if she had some tits and long hair.

>rasengan
>bland as fuck power
nigga, none of the ninja in naruto universe other than Naruto, Jiraiya, and Minato know how to do rasengan

Maybe Kishi prefers them smaller?

Marry Sakura.

He also outsmarted Pain. Naruto vs. Pain is one of the smartest fights in the series, both in terms of planning and execution.
>leaves kage bunshin behind at myoubokuzan to gather sage chakra
>summons them and releases the jutsu to go into sage mode in the heat of battle without needing to stay still
>knows exactly how many clones he can leave at myouboku, how many he can use in battle, and how many rasengans he can use to avoid accidentally releasing the jutsu early
>first time he gets captured, starts gathering nature energy to overload the preta path (or whatever path was absorbing his chakra)
>disguises his clones as rasengan and rubble and shit, utterly fooling pain (even fooling the linked eyesight of the rinnegan at one point)
>uses the rods and sage mode to find nagato's true location
The problem is most of the time Naruto's intelligence is displayed in the same battle where he does a Kyuubi chakra asspull or talk no jutsu, and that's all people remember. Nobody remembers that he was highly prepared and outsmarted Pain several times because when Hinata got beaten he used his hax. Nobody remembers that he only talk no jutsu'd Nagato after he had destroyed the six paths in a fair fight.

Fire ball jutsu isn't some basic technique tho. Also you kind of answered your own question. Naruto wasn't taught any elemental techniques.

>Can only spam clones and Rasengan
>can only punch people in the face

So what you're telling me is that the strongest ninja in existence didn't need retarded shit like ranged attacks and genjutsu which are for pussies?

Instead of pointing shit that he didn't know, how about listing stuff that he actually know and be good at?

Also, fire jutsu? Fuckers like Orochimaru wouldn't even bat an eye when Sasuke hit him with one and yet when Naruto showed his rasengan, Orochimaru straigth wanted to kill him, and Orochimaru didn't really have anything particular against Naruto otherwise(despite being the desigated major villain for like half the story)

Nothing more cancerous than an iPhone using Narutard samefagging his shit thread.

Only during openings and endings Naruto taijutsu is amazing

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marry ten ten.
rape ino.
kill sakura.
impregnate hinata

>rape ino
>mind transfer no jutsu
>now she's raping you

>kill sakura.
>impregnate hinata
this but switched

Hot.

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4kids won't let him smoke

>first scene of the anime showing a fucking monster inside him
How stupid you have to be to think he's an underdog.

>Naruto
>Has 0 education, but a broken power in terms of Shadow clones
>Has a big ol fox dmeon sealed in him

>No genjutsu at all, despite kitsunes being devious liars
>doesn't get taught how to melee properly, even though he could tank the worst hits
>barely gets taught ninjutsu despite his giga chakra reserves
The people in Konoha, and Kishi, are retarded beyond belief

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That fireball technique is only a basic technique for the Uchiha clan because they are genetically superior. For one thing, the wind element Nardo is good at is one of the more difficult ones to shape, it's rare and not many people could teach him the jutsu.

Pure martial arts where sadly and quickly told to fuck off.

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>nigga, none of the ninja in naruto universe other than Naruto, Jiraiya, and Minato know how to do rasengan

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Remember when that monster was a natural force of destruction hellbent on taking over Naruto's body and going on a rampage?

youtube.com/watch?v=2ytxo4OKvnY

Orochimaru vs Sarutobi was peak Naruto.

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you guys take this shit more seriously than you should. I too enjoy shonen but i am able to give them a pass on some of the shit they pull

In that picture they look good, but in the show they like to make her have nothing

Damn Is all of Shippuden like this? Tried watching the pre-timeskip anime, but the quality was so so bad. I always loved Kishimoto's art style, so I just couldn't choke down how bad the anime looked, not to mention the forced episodic anime pacing.

Tobirama was right, uchiha eye hax raped this already disheveled story.

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>the point is the series never hyped him up to be anything different and this whole untalented underdog story is fabricated by dumbass readers that read the Lee fight and thought it was the theme for the entire series.
Then why was he shown at the begining as a shit ninja, prefering to skip class, not knowing how to make 1 clone, losing against sasugay and being rejected by everyone ?
The entire premise is for him to prove his worth through feats and hard work so people can accept him, but halfway through he becomes fucking jesus and just recives asspull after asspull to the point that reaching his goal creates no satisfaction, you're like "he became the hokage, not like there was any real competition".
The only other ninja kishimoto gave as many asspull is sasugay or else naruto would've just been shitting on everyone.
It's an interesting premise that has been ruind by countless asspulls and mistakes on how to make a character grow through his goal

That's your problem right there, you're comparing Trumpirama to the Uchiha Master Race.

because he's the MC

Reminder..

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I will never not find this image fucking hilarious

Is Tobirama the most based and dare i say it redpilled hokage in land of fire history?

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>inb4 Uchiha Sympathizers jump into the thread to defend the Uchiha who dindu nuffin.

they justify it all by saying "yeah your bloodline is strong but you still had to work hard for everything". i remember they say even the sage of 6 path's youngest son was also like that. he was born a weak pathetic loser but somehow became the strongest through effort so while u can say it was his destiny due to his lineage, they want u to say they earned it.

Konoha Uchihas did a few things wrong, the coup was definitely a bad idea, but compared to the genocide organized by the Konoha government, their sins are insignificant.

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>Then why was he shown at the begining as a shit ninja, prefering to skip class, not knowing how to make 1 clone, losing against sasugay and being rejected by everyone
Are you literally retarded? Naruto sucked because he had no support framework due to being a jinchuriki. He was stumbling around because no one was there to point him in the right direction. He struggled in classes because despite being a diamond in the rough, he was still academically retarded and was more concerned with being a village clown for attention which he so desperately needed . Sasuke was always recognized as a genius by the community. He used to have structure and support framework in his childhood that allowed him to lay down good foundation in which his talent could thrive. He always had a clear goal in his life - be it recognition from his father or revenge. Naruto losing to him was completely justified, but even then Naruto has always been incredibly close to Sasuke's level to the point where it lead Sasuke to leave the village. All of those things are hardly indicative of Naruto being a guy who overcomes the genius with hard work. Just like Naruto was shown to struggle, he was shown succeeding: in the very first chapter he learns S-rank ninjutsu, not long after he and Sasuek shown to be on equal footing in their chakra control training, then he demolishes Haku with his biju powers. Then he gives a decent fight to Orochimaru, while Sasuke is pissing himself from fear. Then he learns that he struggles with walking on water because Orochimaru fucked with his seal, then he learns to summon the boss toad in a month as well as the ways to use kuruma's chakra, then he learns Rasengan in a week. He was always a genius, you are just too fucking stupid to notice.

>hey, I'm upset the village is discriminating against me by giving us a job that is uniquely us, that is important to the village, not denying us the ability to integrate into the village if we choose to do so, a title of nobility and everyone who doesn't know about the massive genetic flaw loves us.
>I know! Lets attempt a coup which will get us killed AND weaken Konoha enough to get them wiped out as well.

>was redpilled af about the uchiha
>literally said the Uchihas could not control their own emotions and thus becoming violent to every one around them including their own kin.
>took no shit from his good goy brother
>wasn't born with bullshit wood powers, so he just invented anti-Uchiha techniques left and right
>mastered water to the point where he didn't need a source so he could put out Uchiha flames
>created shadow clones to always have a 2-on-1 scenario necessary to fight the Sharingan
>invented teleportation to counteract move-reading
>killed Izuna, made Madara leave the village, segregated the Uchihas and made them police dogs
>brought up the future ruling elite of Konoha, who finally resolved the issue with the Uchihas
>tried to secure the existence of Senju people and a future for Konoha children.
>died protecting his pupils and the village he loves
>invented edo tensei so one day he will be reanimated and will become a eternal zombie dictator who will unite the world of shinobi
How can one character be so based?

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>Implying
Had Itach not been a fucking rat and assisted Uchihas in their coup, Uchihas being geniuses that they are would've absolutely had a great chance in succeeding in their endeavor. You assume that the whole village would take the side of Konoha's government which is not true and it's fucking retarded to assume that the could would've been a full blown out civil war. Most likely it would've ended with heads of Konoha's ruling apparatus rolling.

While your defense is wafer solid, it's Itachi's entire stance which tells us that the Uchiha would have gotten wiped out and the resulting fallout would have Konoha overrun
So unless you're saying Kishimoto's favourite with his Hokage-level wisdom at age 8 is somehow not being a mouthpiece for Kishi then I'd like to see your counterargument.

Also you over-estimate the Uchiha, they'd lose to the Aburame.

Yeah, if anything Naruto is a tale of how big an impact a little positive attention can have for people. As soon as people started giving a shit about Naruto he improved so fast it freaked people out.

>they'd lose to the Aburame.
That's preposterous. Aburame are not that fucking strong in fact we know nothing about their power ranking among the villages clans. We do however know that it's widely recognized that Uchihas were the geniuses and the village's strongest clan. They had a great aptitude to fire justsus that I believe would be a great means to neutralize the bugs and their eyes would allow them to see them. Not to mention their superior gensutsu would certainly give them an upper hand in any encounter they might find themselves in. If you face against sharingan one on one, run n stuff.

>job that is uniquely us, that is important to the village
Their police forces dealt mostly with drunken fights and their budget was going to be cut in half, all serious crimes were investigated by Anbu. Such a situation was humiliating for the warrior clan.
> not denying us the ability to integrate into the village
>loves us
No, Konoha's citizens blamed them for Kyubi attack and Hiruzen moved them to outskirts and put under surveiance. B4 Obito is Uchiha, he is, but he wasn't Konoha Uchiha.
>Lets attempt a coup
It was stupid decision, but still no reason for total genocide, the leaders of the coup could be arrested, there were only four of them.

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>thinking you have enough fire jutsu to wipe out the entire clan's bugs.
>thinking you have enough Chakra to wipe out that many bugs
>thinking you could genjutsu someone who is attacking you from out of your sight

Aburame are also nobility and the Uchiha are fine and all but they have jutsu which counter the Sharingan, they used it during the 4th war to great effect.

The point is Uchihas were not expecting betrayal, you could argue they should've, but they didn't. You can't say that their plan sucked because Itachi betrayed it, plus we later learn that Itachi had assistance of the Uchiha with the most broken sharingan high on hashirama cells, which realistically wouldn't be expected either. There's also the whole thing with the dad giving up without so much as a fight, which is kinda retarded.

Really, the entire system is fucked up in the first place. The fact that all the other clans in Konoha (or any of the other ninja villages) is a fucking miracle.

Defining peoples jobs or roles in life entirely based on the circumstances of their birth is no way to run a society.

>budget was going to be cut in half
Not sure what the issue is here. If they're only dealing in drunken fights then they don't need that much budget. That just makes them sound Jewish.

>They suspected the Uchiha for the Kyuubi attack

No reason not to suspect them. There are very few people who could control a tailed beast and they had evidence it was an Uchiha who did it.
There is no reason to assume there are Uchiha outside of Konoha given Obito was MIA presumed KIA.
Also Obito is a standard for the Uchiha, not a unique one.
You can try and place the blame on Obito of "not being a Konoha ninja" but he's still an Uchiha at the end of the day.

>you only need to arrest the clan leaders
>in a decision that literally every Uchiha bar 3 agreed with.

Leaving traitors in your midst to regroup is a terrible idea.

The fact that all the other clans in Konoha isn't at constant war or in rebellion (or any of the other ninja villages) is a fucking miracle*

Somehow left out half the sentence, no idea how that happened.

>Naruto suddenly proves himself capable of doing something impressive that doesn't require the kyuubi
>This is what makes Orochimaru afraid of the Akatsuki getting a hold of him
>Akatsuki, the organization that Orochimaru had known about intimately
>The organization that just removes the beasts and discards the host's corpse
Still find this funny

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>You can't say that their plan sucked because Itachi betrayed it

I'm saying the plan sucks because they're trying to take out an entire village by themselves instead of just leaving in the quiet of night.
You could be the strongest in the Leaf Village all you want but when you're that outnumbered with a ton of ninja near you're level. You're just committing suicide by cop at that point.

Why are there no cute Uchihas?

>Aburame are also nobility
What the fuck does it mean? They're a clan yes, but the Uchihas are THE strongest clan.
Aburame use chakra to control bugs can they control enough of the bugs to overpower Uchihas? Do they have enough chakra to control enough bugs to overpower all of the Uchihas, do they have enough chakra to overpower all of the Uchihas? We have no idea, but we know during the manga there was absolutely nothing to properly wage their abilities or overall standing in power hierarchy of the village. We do know that Uchihas are unanimously recognized as the strongest clan.

> the 4th war to great effect.
The only thing I remember during the war of Aburame is Shino's dad's bugs jobbing to Naruto's new chakra mode.

>Defining peoples jobs or roles in life entirely based on the circumstances of their birth is no way to run a society.

In fact it is the only relatively stable way to run a society.

>do they have enough Chakra to overpower the Uchiha

Yes, funnily enough the Uchiha provide it. The entire point of Chakra draining bugs is that once you pay the initial cost, the rest of the upkeep is on the person being drained.
Even if we presume the Uchiha could somehow beat the Aburame by themselves 1 v 1, this isn't a 1 v 1 situation. You have people with mind control, shadow manipulation, Byakugan so that you have nowhere to hide, chakra drain bugs etc.

You're retarded. It was a coup, not a fucking civil war. Their plan was to go kill the heads of the village and suppress all the potential uprising, We have no fucking idea how many people would decide to side with Konoha's government, and you have to be absolutely retarded to think that they didn't gauge how good their chances are against the others clans who might oppose them.

>If they're only dealing in drunken fights then they don't need that much budget.
The problem was that they were not allowed to serve in Anbu or work for the government. Imagine you are qualified for a certain job, but you are only allowed to serve coffee, because you have a bipolar relative and your boss is afraid that you are also emotionally unstable and therefore you cannot be trusted.
>Also Obito is a standard for the Uchiha, not a unique one.
What? The Uchiha clan spawned only two psychopaths. That's like saying that Jeffrey Dunmer is a typical white man.
>Leaving traitors in your midst to regroup is a terrible idea.
Yes, all those merchants, housewifes and kids will regroup in no time.

>no cute Uchihas
?

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Were the uchiha friends with any of the other clans?
Also unrelated, but why did the uzumaki have an entire village and were not just another clan of another village.

Sharingan sees chakra, would the bugs even be able to reach the users at all? They would most likely be destroyed by the flames. Uchihas had factor of surprise on their side, they could've easily cleared out the most dangerous clans before any of them could even recognized anything was happening.

>Their plan was to go kill the heads of the village and suppress all the potential uprising

So their plan to wipe out anyone who was a threat to their regime? You don't see anything hypocritical about this?
"Hey, we've killed the heads of state so now we expect you all to stay in line or we'll kill you". "What do you mean killing the heads of state is rebellion and you all follow the Will of Fire?"

I meant Uchiha girls.

How did the fucking senju die out so fucking fast? was tsunade the only fucking child of her generation?

>[insert Madara/Sasuke/Obito would have been better as girls comment here]

>because you have a bipolar relative and your boss is afraid that you are also emotionally unstable and therefore you cannot be trusted

See, this sounds good in theory but when your entire clan history is retardation, your entire moveset is powered by retard strength and you get progressively more insane via genetics, then your boss might have a point on not wanting retards working in high positions.

>only two psychopaths
>from a clan of people who actively killed each-other since their founding to the extent they had to develop jutsu to give people the realization that killing your kinsmen is not alright.

If they were merchants, housewives and kids only then you might have a point but you're just ignoring the fact the vast majority agreed and weren't coerced into agreeing meaning they are traitors through their own choices.

How the fuck is hypocrisy even relevant? Do you not know any examples of successful coups from history? The whole point of coup is to change regime and to change the power structure of course not every one would be for it, but they could easily gain favor of other clans had they proposed them decent grabs.

Peak hokage right there.

>Were the uchiha friends with any of the other clans?
Nope, this is the issue. They willingly secluded themselves from everyone else. They created their own perceived situation where no-one liked them so they needed to revel.

>but why did the uzumaki have an entire village and were not just another clan of another village.

Uzumaki created their own village, allied with the Leaf. The Uchiha created the Leaf Village by teaming up with the Senju. By definition technically it is the Uchiha and Senju's village but the Will of Fire meme sorta killed any sort of birthright inheritance the Uchiha could have had on that.

>How the fuck is hypocrisy even relevant?

Because by having to genocide people who don't agree with the Uchiha's rebellion, you've just done to them what Itachi did to the Uchiha.
Effectively putting the Uchiha in a position where in starting the coup in the first place, they were automatically in the wrong.

All this could have been avoided if they acted like every other clan in the village and integrated. In choosing to start a coup, the village had to react in a way that produced the least amount of casualties.

Isnt it that most Revolts, Rebellions, and Coups end in failure?

>Uzumaki created their own village
Mind me asking why it was destroyed? or was it just some pointless plot point that kishi made for no reason?

>Mind me asking why it was destroyed?
Uzumaki were too strong. Sealing Jutsu too OP, pls nerf.

Imagine a cute Uchha girl fighting Naruto though. Perfect.

>all other clans fear you
>don't even attempt to create a more friendly image through trade or marriage
>bad thing happens and everyone suspects you
>"W-why are we being distrusted all of a sudden???"
Wew lad, the Uchiha leaders must've got autism from all that inbreeding.

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Fighting through using seals and shit sounds neat. Wish naruto used it more.

I didn't say it was a bad thing. I agree fully.

That's not what the conversation is about though? It's all about how Uchihas plan could work had Itachi not betrayed them. But to address your point: people want to have a better place in the society, the notion that if the system doesn't allow them it, they have to just suck it up is retarded and completely unrealistic. Other clans might have also been dissatisfied with the status quo but had no means of changing it or simply lacked guts to act on their desires. There's no inherent value to status quo and preaching morals to a bunch of killing tools seems odd.

Funny part is, people suspected them because of the fuck huge Sharingan on the Kyuubi's eyes so it wasn't even that they arbitrarily suspected the Uchiha in the first place.

Really? I thought that was just a visual effect for the audience.

>Isnt it that most Revolts, Rebellions, and Coups end in failure?
I don't know I don't have statistics. I know several that succeeded, which makes it possible and realistic for Uchihas to come out on the top in this situation.

>your entire clan history is retardation
They exiled Madara and lived peacefully in Konoha before Danzo started fucking with them.
>you get progressively more insane via genetics
They are not. They are more sensitive and awaken sharingan by suffering, but there is no rule that they will go insane after it, and all Konoha ms users were sane.
>from a clan of people who actively killed each-other since their founding to the extent they had to develop jutsu to give people the realization that killing your kinsmen is not alright.
In ancient times all the clans were cruel and wild, Senju at that time certainly made human sacrifices to the trees.

Alright then let us revert this conversation back to it's basic blocks so that we don't get confused. Let us make the least amount of assumptions.
1 - You think the Uchiha clan could take over the village by killing the heads
2 - You think the Uchiha after successfully wiping out the heads could convince the entire village that their coup was justified

Have I missed any core points? I need you to give me a figure of what percentage of Uchiha make up the village so that we have a fairer idea of the scale of the battles.

Reminder that Sage Mode is the only time Naruto could genuinely be considered an underdog working seriously to improve in solid ways, finding strength in surrounding nature energy and ancient frog jutsus transmitted by his dead master

And then he went full Kyubishit

Your Danzo argument ignores the fact my point predates Konoha's founding.

Your genetics argument ignores the fact their Sharingan unlock requirement is literally them being powered by the Curse of Hatred which can only be overcome with strict WoF meme conditioning like Shisui, Itachi, Kagami who are the only known Uchiha who followed the Will of Fire.

Sure all the clans were wild but they never devoured their own clansmen for more power. You're also thinking of the Otsutsuki for the tree thing, not the Senju. Hashirama is an oddity for his tree powers within his clan.

Really the american revolution is the only one i can think of off the top of my head that succeeded in a fine fashion. Most that even succeed seem ,from my limited knowledge of history, to end in even worse conditions for everyone involved.

This. Pain fight Naruto did some genuinely 200 IQ tricks

Madara would be best girl, I also believe that if she had fallen in love with Tobirama, their lives would have been much better. Hashirama loved everyone equally, and for Madara this would not be enough, while for Tobirama his beloved would be most important.

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>You think the Uchiha clan could take over the village by killing the heads
Add to this taking important points of infrastructure and possible elimination of clans that would absolutely not side with them and would absolutely prove to be a hindrance.
>You think the Uchiha after successfully wiping out the heads could convince the entire village that their coup was justified
I think they can successfully convince that coup is beneficial for those who remain, yes.

> I need you to give me a figure of what percentage of Uchiha make up the village so that we have a fairer idea of the scale of the battles.
I have no idea, let's assume 1:30 is the ratio. The major clans we know the existence of are: Aburame, Yamanaka, Nara, Akimichi, Hyuga, Sarutobi, Inuzuka. Have I missed any?

I prefer the Indra and incarnations females due to supernatural incest connotations are hot, but i do enjoy the idea of Tobidara.

>to end in even worse conditions for everyone involved
This is irrelevant. We are talking about successful coup, as in the one that results in a change of power structure where those who committed it are on the top.

They didn't, those 5 fodder dudes using water jutsus against Madara were all senju with no kekkei genkai.

Uchiha were renowned for having eye hacks that enabled them to literally copy and learn any jutsu they see.

So they suffered an even worse fate then.

> predates Konoha's founding.
The ancient Uchiha were no wilder than other clans, and during the founding of Konoha only Madara was dangerous.
>literally them being powered by the Curse of Hatred
>which can only be overcome with strict WoF
The curse of hatred is just a poetic description of the awakening of the Sharingan during strong emotional experiences, and the fact that Uchiha can remain stable after awakening ms proves that a strong Uchiha is not doomed to madness.
>Sure all the clans were wild but they never devoured their own clansmen for more power.
All primitive tribes had periods of savagery in their history. We were not shown what other clans were doing while the Uchiha killed their relatives, most likely the same, but for other reasons, such as the struggle for power.
>You're also thinking of the Otsutsuki for the tree thing, not the Senju.
No, that's just mine headcanon. Senju was forest clan, so I'm sure they worshiped the trees and offered them sacrifices just like the Celts.

Mechanically I don't see the Uchiha being able to take out numbers relative to what you're thinking of.
They're the strongest in the village but none of them are Itachi, Sasuke, Madara or Obito tier. If they were, they wouldn't have died in a night.
So presuming most Uchiha are standard elite ninja, that means they'd lose a fairly significant part of their forces, they'd have no conceivable way to enforce any sort of village defense nor rebellion quelling.

Ignoring the mechanical aspect for the moment, your entire argument is "They'd convince the survivors of the coup that the coup is justified" which is fine logic but this just cycles back around to the Uchiha being unjustified in their coup in the first place because they had to genocide clans to get to the top.
Which then retroactively puts Konoha's decision to genocide the Uchiha as the pragmatically correct one considering the other option is that more clans than just the Uchiha die.
If it's kill or be killed and you find out that a clan is trying to set up a coup then wiping them out is the practical option to keep the most people alive.

Yeah, I think Hashirama was the only one in his generation with thick hard wood and the average Senju only had a large chakra pool.

Tobirama and Madara are very similar, if it were not for the death of Izuna, they most likely would get along.

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Nah. Senju never were able to use Mokuton. It was literally only Hashirama you knew how to.

The Senju thing is bothering me the most. You've brought up something irrelevant and without evidence. Whereas we have evidence Kaguya was sacrificing dudes to trees. Anyway, ignore this point from this point onwards.

>The ancient Uchiha (...)
>Savagery

Since these points are the same, I'll conflate their answer. If every clan is wild and killing their own people for political reasons, it stands to reason that the Uchiha are objectively worse since we know they killed each-other to take control of the clan and then had to get Izanami'd to get them to stop it.
This is alongside the general family killing for EMS.

The Curse of Hatred is the corrupted chakra the Uchiha get hit with when they unlock their eyes. Black Zetsu and Tobirama both discuss it at separate points, so it's not just poetics.
The fact it's even a thing just speaks to the fact that the Uchiha to unlock the Sharingan have to take corrupted Chakra into themselves and if given time, will end up going insane if they lose people close to them which when you're a ninja is a horrible flaw to have.

How unfortunate. Isnt the uzumakis clan clan noted for their large chakra pools? If so then they dont even have that as a unique aspect.

Similarity doesnt garantee successful relations, but it is cute.

>Uchiha are objectively worse
I can agree that they were probably the most brutal in ancient times, but this is in the past. Already during the founding of Konoha, even Madara would not have killed his brother for the sake of his eyes, and his clan members were afraid and despised him for the mere suspicion that he took his eyes by force from his terminally ill brother. By the beginning of the story, they already had quite clear moral principles.
>corrupted chakra
Is it? My translation says special chakra, not corrupted. I got the impression that when Uchiha experiences great suffering, most often losing a loved one, it serves as a trigger for the production of this special chakra and it awakens the Sharingan. The problem is that this suffering can also cause Uchiha to behave inadequately, which, combined with the fact that they are strong, is dangerous to others. From the outside, it looks as if after awakening the Sharingan Uchiha goes crazy, but in fact, suffering causes both awakening and violent behavior. However, a strong-willed Uchiha can deal with suffering and in no way change his behavior even after awakening of the Sharingan.

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>but it is cute.
They look good together.

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>However, a strong-willed Uchiha can deal with suffering and in no way change his behavior even after awakening of the Sharingan.

This is the crux of the issue, my dude. They have to be strong willed when their entire genetic structure is yelling at them to jump off the deep end.
That the further into despair they get, the more powerful they get, the more powerful they get, the crazier they get into a sweet feedback loop which has people end up taking the eyes of their family members for more power.

It's needless liability to have the Uchiha running around, not integrating into the village like normal people with the ticking time bomb of them not attaching themselves to the Will of Fire over their own clan like Itachi, Shisui and Kagami.
One that you can't afford to let go off because of the previously aforementioned feedback loop.
Could you imagine what would happen to the surviving Uchiha if they rebelled and then had to watch as a bunch of their family was slaughtered in front of them in a battle to protect the village?
The survivors would all have Mangekyo Sharingan from the sheer trauma alone. They should know this and still choose to try a coup anyway.

>gay shit.
I was talking about fem madara.

>They have to be strong willed when their entire genetic structure is yelling at them to jump off the deep end.
That's true, it is harder for them, but it's not imposible.
>It's needless liability to have the Uchiha running around, not integrating into the village
I don't think it was right to segregate them. All Uchihas who were allowed to work for the government (Kagami, Shisui, Itachi) were loyal as fuck and pretty stable even after awakening ms. Even Fugaku worked for village for decades until all this shit started (Kyubi attack, Uchiha discrimination, Obito's manipulations). Hiruzen should have encouraged the integration of the Uchihas, give them some positions in the village, teach their children to the will of fire, if Uchihas felt like a part of the village, then they would also start putting the village above the clan as Itachi.
>Could you imagine what would happen to the surviving Uchiha
We were shown the example of Sasuke
>The survivors would all have Mangekyo Sharingan from the sheer trauma alone.
Only adults and talented, not all Uchiha have the Sharingan.

I still think that Danzо could have suppressed the coup simply by arresting the leaders, he himself thought their coup was very poorly planned, while he kept the entire village under control. The Uchiha were wrong in deciding to rebel, but Konoha elders who decided to kill them all were even more wrong.

>5 fodder dudes using water jutsus against Madara were all senju
What? Was there a senju sign on them or what?

The thing is they're not going to fight against the whole village. The whole point of coup is that it's swift unexpected and very precise. It's not a full blown war, because if it really was, Uchihas could've easily find allies among other villages who would seek to gain some leverage over Konoha. This is absolutely true that most of the Uchihas are nowhere near level of Itachi, Sasuke, Madara or Obito, but we can't say all of them are, we know for a fact that both Fugaku and Mikoto chose not to engage with Itachi which makes it difficult to gauge how strong they were. Plus the fact that both Itachi and Obito who not only incredibly skillful and strong on their own, but who also had the most broken mangekyuo abilities in the series participated in the massacre makes it easy for me to believe that even if there were some who could stand against them one on one they would've been absolutely demolished in 1 on 2 scenario. That's not to mention that their attack was also unforeseen in the middle of the night and was committed by members of the Uchiha clan making it even more difficult to notice. I am also of the opinion that both Itachi and Obito would've just as easily destroyed the entire village had they wanted to. I would argue that they're enough Uchihas on the Kakashi level who would make it very possible to accomplish the task they set out to do with the help of element of surprise.

The point about justification is completely moot in my opinion, because the coups are more often than not committed not out of sense of justice but out of sheer desire to change the power distribution. Very few of those who are at the top would care much if Uchihas had good enough of proposal to make, plus after all things said and done would it really be reasonable to engage in all out warfare given the dangers of foreign envision? Or would it be more reasonable to negotiate a new regime under Uchihas?

Yes.

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At least his kids knows the Hyuga style thanks to the Keikaku-sama. and the /ourguy/ seki

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>I think rather than Naruto being a bad student
Who the fuck even said that? How can anyone be a bad student when the teachers are the most brain dead and incompetent retarded in the series until Kishimoto had to retcon even that bullshit.

Uchiha Clan would definitely have their hands full fighting the ENTIRE VILLAGE. There weren't that many of them, and most of them only had the standard sharingan + fire jutsu. They would be up against:

>Hyuuga clan fucking up their chakra points and resisting long range attacks by spinning
>Aburama clan sneaking bugs everywhere that can not only drain chakra but some of the rarer ones can burrow into you and fucking explode - track you - or in the case of that one guy dissolve you on a fucking cellular level
>The Nara Clan with their shadow binding
>The Aburame Clan with their multi-size technique and fucking Super Soldier pills that increase your strength 100fold
>The Yamanaka clan with their mind control and sensory abilities
>THE ENTIRETY OF ANBU
>THE ENTIRETY OF ROOT
>Something like 1000+ chunin-level regular ninjas
>Hiruzen

Uchiha clan were talented sure but there's no way in hell they could handle all of that.

I also forgot to add all the regular Jounins, among which you have a lot of good secret technique users.

>he forgot about sleeper OP Guy

I guess I did. Who?

>1000+ chunin-level regular ninjas
probably closer to 10,000 going by the war arc
allied shinobi army was 80,000 people and konoha was making up a big chunk of that

Just read the fucking thread. Uchihas don't have to fight all of them at once. Half of the jobbers you mentioned would be dealt by a simple sharingan genjutsu. Only best out of the main branch Hyuuga had access to spinning and 64 palm technique, even then sharingan's perceptive ability helps not to job to that. Aburame bugs are also can easily be detected by sharingan's chackra vision. Both yamanaka's mind control and Nara clan's shadow binding require for the opponent to be held in place or to be tricked into a certain position to work, even then strong chakra allows you to get out of shadow binding and sharingan would probably allow to recognize who is under the mind control. Akimichi are pretty much useless against opponent of average size, giving that they would be fighting inside the village their multi-size technique would be particularly useless, and the pills are temporary and have pretty harsh side effects. Plus genjutsu will probably be enough to deal with them. Realistically Anbu and root would be the only ones Uchiha would absolutely have to fight during coup, but I personally have no fucking idea about how either of them would fare against each other since all of them are fucking jobbers who did jack shit in the manga. Hiruzen is old and busted, if he jobbed to Orochimaru and Orochimaru jobbed to sharingan he has no chance.

It would not be a situation where the Uchiha can dictate the pace of battle. Genjutsu can be dispelled by a tap on the fucking shoulder.

I won't go point-by-point with you but you're massively underselling the other clans of Konoha.

How the fuck would it not be? They stage the coup, nobody has any idea if it's going to happen or when, if Itachi doesn't betray them. Genjutsu can be dispelled, yet it proved retardedly potent during sand village invasion putting to sleep all but ten people. Plus why the fuck do you think it would be so easy to come into contact with a person to dispel it, it's not like Uchihas will let you just as you please. You have to fight them without looking them in the eyes as well which puts you at a great disadvantage and apparently not everyone even knows about it.

Plus you have to ignore the fact that every time Uchiha dies you're risking another one getting mangekyo.

Aren't eye transplants a little more complicated than that? It took Rin a while and she had to use medical ninjutsu.

Madara could only pop out Kakashi's and swap instantly because of Hashirama cells or some shit.

One thing I will concede is that ROOT probably wouldn't get involved. Danzo would just hide underground just like he did during the Pain invasion and then swoop in to pluck all the fresh eyeballs afterward.

also, even when Sasuke finally decided he wanted Itachi's eyes he had to wear bandages over his eyes for at least a day after the operation.

It takes a while.

If it weren't possible to take down the other clans and shinobi, they would not have planned it in the first place

You're right - not once in the history of humanity has a military organization overestimated its abilities or underestimated those of its enemies. People only ever do things that have a guaranteed 100% chance of success.

Hell, the plan was so well thought out it was sabotaged from within before it even started. The evidence is clear - the Uchiha were omnipotent.

I said possible not guaranteed faggot

And I never said it was impossible.

I said they would have their hands extremely full. As in it would be incredibly difficult to pull off.

>uses a sexy jutsu to distract the godess of chakra
simply EBIN

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Ok we're in agreement then

What are you on about? Mangekyo doesn't require transplants. It requires your friend to die

Naruto pre time skip was pretty damn good for a long running shonen Anime. I guess your just used modern digital anime flashiness.

>Itachi works as double agent against his own clan proving his loyalty to konaha
>by the age of 8 has the wisdom and mental fortitude of a hokage
>Hiruzen sees this and takes itachi as his apprentice to train him as next hokage
>Uchiha are pacified, fugaku proud of his son
>Holyfuck.jpg genocide of innocent people doesn’t have to take place

Kek kishi the ultimate troll

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ayyy

Kek

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"you watch the skies, i'll watch the village"

>If so then they dont even have that as a unique aspect.
IIRC it was stated that the uzumaki and the Senju are cousins so its not suprising that they both have large chakra pools.

The thing is, they wouldn't be fighting against the entire village. The point of their coup was to quickly kill the major village leaders( Hiruzen and Danzo) which would have been entirely possible if itachi had not been a snitch.

if he is talented he would learned more jutsu

Other clans wouldn't have accepted the Uchiha as new leaders. They were already suspected of summoning the Kyubi, and after the coup all the clans would have united to destroy the Uchiha. They should've just leave the village and try to create their own.

Oh fuck off with your edgy "duh sekend hokakke wuz rite lol!!!111!!!" bullshit. The Leaf, and the Second in particular, set out to fuck the Uchiha Day 1. Instead of recognizing that Madara was an outlier, a lone renegade who attacked the Leaf on his own, they segregated them to some dark corner of the Leaf village. The whole reason Madara had to get the Fox was because the Uchiha rejected his plans to destroy the Leaf, they were in no shape or form responsible for Madara attacking the Leaf. If the Second Hokage had been more rational and chosen not to segregate them, there would have been no feelings of resentment that led to the planning of a coup. In fact, the Uchiha were simply responding to the threat of imminent violence, I'd want my people to arm the fuck up if the Vice President was ever after our asses the way the Second was after theirs. The Uchiha did absolutely nothing wrong; if the Second had simply acknowleged that Madara acted independently, and not autistically forced segregation on them, they'd still be alive and Sasuke wouldn't be an edgelord.
Fuck off with your Second Hokage wankery

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>Actually taking Tobihitler shitposts seriously
ISHYGDDT

But Tobirama did nothing wrong. The Uchiha were hate-fueled by identity politics and cared more about their own groups interests than the interest of their country as a whole. Genocide was necessary because they would have never been appeased and would eventually try to make a power grab or destroy the village in the process. Hail Tobirama!

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This is a pretty good point to be honest. If Kishimoto had elemental counters to be in effect, naruto should've learned the shift earlier.
>naruto finally learns about element-infused chakras
>Don't use your wind versus Sasuke's fire, bro!
>yfw they could have been creating massive firestorms all along if his world-class jounin of a teacher had bothered with it

87014345

hinata, go away

He did everything wrong
> Killed Izuna.If it wasn't for Tobirama, Madara's greatest source of pain and the reason why he unlocked his EMS would have been avoided
>Madara not being chosen as Hokage.If it wasn't for Tobirama Senju going against Hashirama's wishes and making the position vote-based, Madara would have been established as the first Hokage.
>Madara coming back. Tobirama took Madara's corpse for his research on the Sharingan which gave Madara the chance to keep his powers and use Izanagi to comeback to life
>The Uchiha Revolt. The main reason the clan decided to stage their coup-d'etat was because of the injustice they had to go through because of Tobirama.
>The Uchiha massacre. Clan was wiped out all because of Danzo, Koharu and Homaru, 3 of Tobirama's apprentices who he probably brainwashed at some point.
> Sarutobi's death and Madara coming back... again. Both of which were caused by the Edo Tensei jutsu that is considered an offense against life and which was developed by none other than Tobirama

He was nerdy racist piece of shit who died to 20 fodder lightning ninjas, failed to spread the genes of his clan and named an incompetent retard as his successor. Fuck off, i hate all of you Tobiwankers so much.

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Are you talking about the part Naruto was using his massive chakra pool to cheat and train faster?

Remember that every fodder in part 2 could make water out of thin air and Kisame could make a lake at 30% power

Why didn't Tobirama just use Edo Tensei to create an unstoppable army for world domination?

Without Uchiha none of that would've happened in the first place!

Most likely his technique was still too primitive, maybe he could reanimate and control only 3-5 zombies and he didn't have the corpses of strong warriors. Otherwise he would have started conquering other villages.

Uchiha were ready to reconcile with Senju and build a village together, but Tobirama ruined everything.

Has anyone thought about how Hashirama dealt with Madara?
At first he imposed peace on him on his own terms, Madara lost his brother, lost the battle and was ready to die, but Hashirama forced him to become a co-founder of Konoha. Madara dreamed of a peaceful village in which his brother would be safe, but his brother died, and then his dream was no longer feasible, but he forced himself to work to fulfill the dream of Hashirama. Madara worked for the benefit of Konoha, tried to protect his clan, but his own clan members didn't understand him and were afraid of him, and then turned away from him. And Madara had already realized that Tobirama was trying to isolate the Uchih and then exterminate them. He tried to warn clan members, but they didn't believe him. Madara had nothing left, his brother died, the clan expelled him. And then was he betrayed by Hashirama. During their battle, Hashirama struck Madara in the back, he said that he would kill anyone who threatened HIS village. Madara gave the name of this village, built it together with Hashirama, but Hashrairama now calls the village only HIS. Hashirama killed Madara, and then gave his corpse to his brother for research. Just think, he gave the body of his best friend for an autopsy and research to his creepy brother who hated Madara. Hashirama could have supported Madara in a difficult moment for him, help him as Naruto helped Sasuka, but he disowned him.

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Is this bait? Are people seriously defending naruto's version of dindu nuffins and taking them seriously?

Senjews were the true villians of the series and Uchihas were their victims.

youtube.com/watch?v=7oo5S49JVQQ

>sasuke's chimpout triggers war between cloud and leaf
>eventually B and Naruto bring both sides together after man many deaths
>meanwhile while obbito tries to retrieve the rinnegan; konan's booby trap destroys it
>ruining Tobi's plan
>meaning her sacrifice was not in vein
>naruto fights sasuke in a final battle
>naruto realises sasuke is beyond saving and kills him
>final scene is Tobi sitting on an ocean cliff in a far away land watching the sunset
>he flashes back to his youth revealing him to be obbito
>takes of his mask and tosses it into the ocean while saying
>so kakashi I guess in the end I was nothing but trash after all

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t. literally and figuratively predisposed to be psychopaths and as emotional as women on their periods

10/10 underrated

Dirty Senju propaganda.Tobirama was genocidal maniac and necromant, and Hashirama allowed him to do everything. And Senju's dogs established nepotism chain and committed genocide. Fuck senjews.

heh

did this actually happen? I dont remember this

Yes it actually did

oof

Not mentioning he can not only sense the presence of an intertwined dimension he is not apart of but he can literally fight people from that dimension too. Imagine how broken this is?

Wow, so are you saying fucking Kabuto, a fuckig nobody, was a way more talented ninja that the 2nd fucking Hokage who is brother with the strongest ninja known to the modern ninja world?

Not really, Tobirama invented Edo Tensei, but he didn't have time to improve it and make himself army of zombies. Tobirama was hokage and taught kids, but Orochimaru and Kabuto were full time researchers, so they had time to improve Second's jutsus.

Danzo put them under surveillance since Kyuubi Incident, after which their living area was changed from a bit further away from Konoha MP base. It had monitoring, there were twin spies that were made to look like specific Uchiha,
Uchiha coup was doomed to fail because it was Obito's side project that he didn't even cared if it will succeed.

>and all Konoha ms users were sane.
If by "all" you mean "all manga canon" and that means "Shisui and Shisui alone", then yes. Otherwise, no. Itachi may have not been insane in obvious ways, but he certainly wasn't the same "Hokage level Wisdom at age of 8", because MS certainly made him and his ability to plan ahead completely retarded.

Not to mention the human sacrifice that would've been necessary each time he wanted to test it.

That feel when Kishi wanted to make the Uchiha ultra powerful at the expense of other characters, and ultra edgy, but made them too edgy, and then had to whitewash them at the expense of other characters.
Itachi entire plot comes down to gibberish because of it.

Fucking Iruka and the Third was there.
They took the time to take care of him.
Shit I STILL don't know why fucking Iruka didn't just adopt Naruto instead of letting him live in an orphan hole in the wall and live like that.

Anyway, Naruto sucks because he's fucking lazy and or absolutely fucking retarded.
He only SAYS he works hard but doesn't actually put in the time to learn from people around him ever.
He's so busy trying to be noticed that he doesn't actually try at the thing that will get him noticed.
Even saying I WANT TO BE THE HOKAGE is just an attempt to get attention rather then an actual fucking goal.
He knew instinctively that he'd NEVER be the fucking hokage and was a fucking fuck up.
That's why kept saying it.
A FUCK UP LIKE ME WANTS TO BE THE HOKAGE!!
PAY ATTENTION TO ME!!

So why couldn't Rock Lee do Ninjutsu and Genjutsu? In this universe, do you have to be born with the ability to do it? I always assumed everybody could do it some just chose not to become ninjas, and Lee was just a special case.

Reasons why you are wrong:
>Obito gave the Uchiha information that made them want a coup in the first place, and he was feeding the flames of it through only one Uchiha, rest were unaware of him. Obito did this as a side project, Uchiha could fail for all he cared
>Danzo and Hiruzen knew Uchiha are planning a coup, Itachi or no Itachi
>Itachi have no MS without Shisui dying
>A Hyuuga bastard with a single Byakugan thrashed Shisui and Itachi working together, and was immune to Sharingan genjutsu, forcing Shisui to use MS empowered genjutsu
Uchiha wouldn't win the coup, they had no chance to have a surprise in the first place, and never were the strongest clan in Konoha,

>Nobody
>Implying only people who are related to special people can do something

The fuck out of here with your destined blood line only the genetically superior can achieve things bullshit you absolute faggot.

Kabuto was the greatest healing ninja in the entire fucking manga and the most powerful pure sage.
Actual sage, not whatever naruto is.
Him perfecting edo tensei and the ridiculous as fuck medical ninjitsu he could do was superior to what Orichimaru was doing as well.

He could, he was just hilariously incompetent at it.
Like how certain people can try to be good at piano but it's nigh impossible.

Tobirama hardly suffered from any moral dilemma, dude was harsh and kinda mad scientist type. In order to invent Edo Tensei, he had to make many sacrifices, so he simply didn't have enough time to create an army of zombies. That's a pity, really, he would've been good dictator of united shinobi world.

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>>Implying only people who are related to special people can do something
That's how things work in Naruto.

>MS certainly made him and his ability to plan ahead completely retarded.
I'm still confused by a lot of his actions. How did he know Tsunade would return and heal Sasuke from the effects of Tsukiyomi? For all he knew, he could've been permanently fucked.

>doesn't actually put in the time to learn from people around him ever
>learns about tree climbing
>spends all day every day practicing it until he can reach the top of the tallest one
>learns about kuchiyose
>spends all day every day practicing it until jiraiya throws him off a cliff
>learns about rasengan
>spends all day every day practicing each phase, on multiple occasions he passes out right there where he was practicing
>learns about a theoretical jutsu that may not even be possible
>spends all day every day practicing with 1000 clones, wakes up in the middle of the night to keep practicing
>learns about sage mode
>spends all day every day practicing even eating fucking disgusting frog food because can't leave this place and stop the training for one second
Maybe during his academy days when he was a kid he didn't make much of an attempt, but during the course of the series itself he makes several attempts and regularly pesters people until they finally teach him something, then he works hard until he masters their teaching. That's the main problem, why people get so confused and upset by the series, the MC works hard but he is also the chosen one and being the chosen one ends up eclipsing everything else.

The rule is show, don't tell. Telling can actually be good within reason. But Kishimoto and Boruto guy both manage to tell way too much while simultaneously showing the exact opposite. The entire series is full of lapses in logic.

>learns about tree climbing
>spends all day every day practicing it until he can reach the top of the tallest one
How the hell did Sasuke had trouble with tree climbing when he was already able to do elemental justu

Tree climbing is constant maintained chakra control that you have to vary as you go with chakra points that are the hardest to use. The fireball is just a one and done, he could compensate for the efficiency loss with his chakra volume, and nature change isn't the same as chakra control.

This is the biggest problem with Naruto as a whole. We are told Tobirama took the wrong approach but a lot of the evidence validates him. We are told Naruto is an underdog when he has so much going for him. We are told Sakura is a decent ninja when everything shows she's not even a decent human being. The series was mainly written on a monthly basis and it shows.

>That was at the end with an asspull near Fairy Tail level.
>at the end

Remember when that literally never happens (except for 10 seconds against Haku) until the battle with Orochimaru on the bridge?

>It was in the first part.
when you think about it, Naruto seemed more talented in part 1, he learns shadow clone, the rasengan and tree climbing on his own.
But when the timeskip comes around he didn't learn a thing (couldn't even do a one handed rasengan until he could use chakra arms), he doesn't even know about the chakra nature, all his power are due to his large chakra pool and relation to Kurama and generally acts like a bubbling moron during the war arc

>Reincarnated from a demi-god
Said Demi-God is the ancestor of all Senju and all Uzumaki. Basically 90% of the Konoha population.
>Was given half of another demi-god's power
Which made him go out of control with him having only ever learned to use a tiny fraction (not even a single tail) of its power.
>Had Clifford the Big Red Dog inside his gullet
Who wasn't an ally until the last arc of the series.
>The son of one of the most talented shinobi of all time (Minato) and one of the most prodigious Uzumaki Clan members
Who are both dead and have no genetic ability outside of maybe Uzumaki chakra capacity.
>Is a direct descendant of a clan that particularly excelled at fuinjutsu
Which he never learned and had no members of his clan to learn from.
>His own chakra reserves and fucking stamina are god-tier, many times stronger than Kakashi (a talented Jonin and child prodigy)
And Sasuke had reserves akin to a Chuunin as an Academy Student, Fire Release jutsu and the resources of an entire clan.
>Distantly related to Senju, who are also god-tier ninja
The Senju and Uchiha bloodline makes up the majority of the people in Konoha.
>Has Clifford's massive chakra pool
Which fucked over his ability to learn Chakra Control.
>to summon massive ass toads the size of Shukaku
He could barely summon ONE until he was a Sage.
>to cheat his way to learning Rasenshuriken and Sennin Mode
The entire point of his Sage training was Kurama preventing him from cheating his way. Rasenshuriken was entirely Naruto's own work.
>Was taught by many of the strongest actual ninja in the world, only because of Clifford and the threat Akatsuki posed
Who taught him jackshit.

You're a retarded nigger.

>Reincarnated from a demi-god
>Said Demi-God is the ancestor of all Senju and all Uzumaki. Basically 90% of the Konoha population.

He isn't just a descendent, he is a straight up reincarnation of Asura, son of the man who was the "creator of all things", Hashirama was a previous reincarnation and, just like Hashirama, that made naruto fated to be great. Accept it mate

I don't get why people keep using the descendent of gods argument. So he gets a super powerup and awesome powers for the last 10 chapters out of 700. Wow big fucking deal. Him being a son of god didn't matter for 690 chapters, why does it matter so much at the end? Especially since both him and gay friend still managed to not beat properly neither Madara nor Kaguya?

>Who wasn't an ally until the last arc of the series

Bullshit, Kurama wasn't happy with his situation until the last arc, but was a unwilling ally many times, his chackra was the reason why naruto could beat Neji, Gaara (I think he used it to summon the frog, I may be wrong about this) fight Sasuke in the first time, fight Orochimaru and defeat Pain

How is being a reincarnation of a god not a advantege? I mean, statisticaly speaking 28% of all hokages were reincarnation of a god.

>Naruto doesn't work hard

I swear some of y'all ppl don't pay attention while watching Naruto. This is becoming the biggest meme in the community. Naruto was never lazy and bust his ass off during training.

Naruto trained like crazy to learn Rasengan and Learn Sage Mode. He had to hold on to Gamabunta for a ridiculously long time to earn his respect.

Some of y'all need to rewatch this series, instead taking Plagues video at face value

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>Said Demi-God is the ancestor of all Senju and all Uzumaki. Basically 90% of the Konoha population.
But they aren't destined to be great because of that do they
Which made him go out of control with him having only ever learned to use a tiny fraction (not even a single tail) of its power.
which still save his ass multiple time
>Who wasn't an ally until the last arc of the series.
You do realize every fight it was the reason he won all his part 1 fight except Kiba and Kabuto
>And Sasuke had reserves akin to a Chuunin as an Academy Student,
still nothing compared to Naruto
>Fire Release justu
which he had to work hard for
>and the resources of an entire clan.
who died when he was a kid
>The Senju and Uchiha bloodline makes up the majority of the people in Konoha.
*citation needed*
>Which fucked over his ability to learn Chakra Control.
but still helped him great deal and the only reason he could achieved anything
>He could barely summon ONE until he was a Sage.
which is still impressive from a genin
>The entire point of his Sage training was Kurama preventing him from cheating his way
He still used clone to accumulate senjustu and could only even do it because of his chakra reserve
>Rasenshuriken was entirely Naruto's own work.
>Kurama preventing him from cheating his way
so is it cheating or hard work
>Who taught him jackshit.
what is sage mode
>You're a retarded nigger
no u

Funny thing is:
All shounen protags are massive beta orbiters. It attracts a certain audience (such as yourself).

the thing isn't that he doesn't work, it's that most of his major growth was given to him on a silver platter, the man trained under Jiraya for 2 years and only learned to do a bigger rasengan

You know what is the greatest plothole in Naruto? Minato being the one who invented rasengan. I mean, multiple generations of magic ninjas and not even one of them before minato tought: "you know that spirit energy we got that greatly increases our physical strengh? The one we can consentrate on any bodypart and shape it however we want? I'm going to curl into a ball and hit people with it"

Thats because Jiraiya wasted his time trying to get him to master the nine tails.

god Jiraya really was a failure on all aspect

Do we ever get much explanation on Minato in general? The dude was fucking ridiculous and in my opinion has one of the most broken arsenals of all time.

Last minute bursts of effort and desperation do not hard work make. He had to put in nearly a month of work for the rasengan, but it was a technique basically unattainable for virtually the entire population, who relatively have to do a lot more for a lot less.

Naruto gets by on everything (especially shadow clones) in record time, and if he actively sought out new things and was constantly bettering himself he would have had a lot to show for it prior to the time skip. And if he'd given an iota of effort in class he would have more than likely been able to at least come up with a simple definition for his fucking magic. How little do you have to care to not pay attention when the teacher is discussing MAGIC

This is another one of Kishimoto's show versus tell moments. It's very clear he wanted to tell us that Shippuden Naruto was a far more competent shinobi thanks to his training. But everything he shows us is the opposite and as such makes the training/Jiraya useless.

All hail the lord of procrastination, for he will outperform you as long as you give him a week's heads up, and will never experience half the despair situations of the common fodder

Speedreader

>1995+24
>there are faggots unironically posting in a Naruto thread on Yea Forums
Someone please end me

If the explanation was anywhere within the war arc then I don't deny speed reading.

He was the coolest!

Small rasengan, big rasengan, red rasengan, blue rasengan
Kishimoto was definitely afraid of giving Naruto techniques for some reason. Most obviously because early on something like a ranged wind style attack copied 100x or more by his clones would destroy anything, but I think he also struggled with a) not showing sasuke up and b) feeling like he couldn't organically show that growth without it feeling like an asspull.
Kishi does so many sudden strength gains, even if it is a shounen thing, that I genuinely think he was worried about actually using his power system.

>the quantum singularity calling the pot black

You can't fight it.

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I unironically miss moot :(

Here you have the perfect example for an individual who refuses to grow up. All while he thinks that he's in a position to shit on immature BnHA, FranXX or DBS watchers. Can't make this up.

Almost every character only had 1-2 techniques. All the leaf genin had one signature move, then by the time skip they had a stronger version of that move. If he gave Naruto more techniques people would be complaining that the MC has too many techniques in a world where all his peers have one. The fact that the Copy Ninja has 1000 techniques wasn't supposed to imply that a regular ninja should have 500.

Naruto(the anime not the person) has a lot of problems. The idea, world and characters are quite nice but nothing of it was used to the extend it should have been. The story is dumb and full of cliches. It makes me sad. I expected si much more of it. The theorizing about characters' powers (especially Akatsuki) was way more fun than the actual "payoff". Fuck, this shit makes me angery. Rewrite when?

I want to hug Nagato.

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Anyone else have a problem with Naruto being a hypocritical faggot during Borutos exam? Like why are there rules againdt tools when you would and should use every single advantage possible in the field? Like that is extremely fucking retarded beyond a shadow of a doubt especially when Naruto literally cheated himself by using the Kyuubis fucking chakra when he would of lost 10 times over during his exam without it. God that one scene tilted me to no end with that faggot Naruto looking down on his son like he was any better.

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He failed in school.
His clone was half dead.

>Rewrite when?
probably never, I would love one though

Boruto isn't canon.

Then what is?

Remember when two Uchihas took on the entire ninja world?

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with the ten-tail at their side

And, as you can see in that picture, the ninja being protected by Kyuubi hacker chakra or otherwise they'd have died the instant Madara looked their way.

>Rival is Sasuke
>Just got done training with Jiraiya
I think having come away with actually having learned something from Jiraiya would have gone off pretty okay

forgot to mention they both had senju DNA

I miss them.

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unironically based

based desu

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He mastered an A rank jutsu in a week and was able to summon gamabunta at age 12. Failing to do one jutsu because you never practice doesn't mean anything when you literally go and master a forbidden jutsu the next day with little to no effort.

>He mastered an A rank jutsu in a week and was able to summon gamabunta at age 12
Because he has more ninja juice than the rest of the ninja world combined

So he was extremely talented? Thanks for proving my point.

stamina and skill are different thing retard

>he's good because he mastered jutsu A without effort. It doesn't matter that he failed at jutsu B because he never trained.
Ehh, ehh.
That's shit logic

yellow man suck

The rasengan requires top tier chakra control I would say thats pretty skillful, especially considering Kurama and the seal was fucking with the flow of his chakra making it harder to control.

How so? It just proves he was extremely talented when he actually tried.

Glad to know you watched this series half asleep. While Naruto does gets his techniques at a fast pace, that still doesn't change the fact he trained hard for it.

>if Naruto had more techniques

Then ppl would bitch about Naruto being more of Mary Sue than usual

>he doesn't train all the time for the sake of the story!
Congratulations, that doesn't give him a pass. Gaining shadow clones in a single night doesn't make him a hard worker

AS someone who was here since the time every Naruto thread was spammed with "naruto is a gettaway anime of the worst kind" by people who had nothing better to do than make sure others would not enjoy what they don't: It does make me happy to see that there are at least two Naruto threads here at any given time, believe it!

He cheats for them. He has shadow clones to quickly gain experience and has the stamina to train hard in the first place.

He worked his ass off for a month straight - literally training 24/7 - to learn Rasengan. Ditto the summoning jutsu.

>cheats
He's still doing the training. He gets the cumulative exhaustion in addition to the cumulative knowledge. Using 1000 clones for 1 day is actually equivalent to 1000 days of training, both in terms of benefits and drawbacks. Doing it in a shorter time span isn't cheating because you still have to put in that many manhours (or clonehours) of work. It's like when those Dragon Ball guys go in the room of space and time or whatever. One day passes outside but inside they were literally training for one year. Cheating would be if 1000 clones didn't make him 1000x times as tired, but they do.

Getting tired doesn't matter when you have a combination of having the strongest chakra beast inside you and being part of a clan that is known for their large chakra reserves and vitality-- both of these ensuring you will never get any permanent damage as a result of over work.

And? None of that means he doesn't put in the work.

>A WHOLE MONTH
Wow. He really tries hard for the brief amount of time an opportunity lays itself down at his feet. Definitely stands out in a series where mostly everyone else has more actual concern for their mortality and their failings actually having consequences for others.

I think the biggest problem i have about naruto's "hard work" is that because he is such a talented person that he barely has to work a long amount of time to learn something that took other people months if not years to master. Like the rasengan which took jiraiya years to learn and naruto, even if you take into account the time with his clones would have barely amounted to a month because we did see him still needing to sleep during the week it took for him to learn it. Then there's sage mode which once again literally took him a week to master when jiraiya after years of learning about it/using it still wasn't able to master it.