If Hell is real then its unconscionable to have children. Discuss

>creates something out of nothing
that's where you're wrong, kiddo

basic human empathy, that dictates that infants are blameless? wait...
I forgot that the bible does not operate in those terms, in it people are cursed to the seventh generation, and because Adam and Eve sinned every human is cursed with sin

if that being could do it, what's stopping us? embrace the Amaranth, reach Heaven by violence, all through Love under Will

Bingo!

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression

Matthew 10:14 - How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

>if the creator could do it, why cant the barely sentient creation do it as well?
Seems like a risky bet

in classical Christian sexual morality (orthodox & catholic) actively choosing not to have children is a sin and there should always be the intention and possibly of conception in sex. priests get out of this because they're bringing people to salvation through missionary work.

What actually is the difference, why would death reign before Jesus, and stop after him? I get the sacrifice, and all that, but isn't that just an event limited in time and space, what did it actually change on the global scale?

The people certainly are the same, every one a sinner, natural death rules this world. They aren't suddenly more worthy to be "saved", I mean other than the belief in the Son of Man, they aren't really doing new. I don't really see any victories over sin on the daily basis, the second coming, Resurrection of all, is supposed to happen at the end of times, right? But as we know, time has no end.

So, New Testament, just seems to be a formal document. A contract, promising a change in the afterlife.

But you actually think that God is made powerless to bring his elect up to heaven because his designs are contingent on the sexual choices of flawed man?

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The passages together say, in no uncertain terms, that everyone is borne into original sin and everyone must know the person of Jesus to be saved.

The real concern ought to be the case where the child's life on earth is hell. Some people would truly be better off had they never been born.

that's the point exactly. jesus (god) was the mechanism in which the father (god) opened the gates to heaven. it was an act of perfect love (agape) in which God sacrificed himself to himself in order to bear and experience all sin, all evil, as both god and as we do, as man.

>actively choosing not to have children is a sin and there should always be the intention and possibly of conception in sex.

Somebody needs to read the story of Onan, how could you not have made it through Genesis? Onan was required to sleep with his brother's wife, to give her offspring, because his brother died. He refused to do so, in order to claim his future son's inheritance for himself. The act of "spilling seed" was only a sin in the context of Onan's greed.

Masturbation, and not having children, are not sins in every context.

are there any comic books about this?

It sure seems that God has elected to give us the free will to deny him (see sin). the question you're getting at is the calvinist autism of "well if God elected you to be free willed and knew the outcome it was already predetermined and you where never elected in the first place" to which I say the assumption you take on this position as a Christian is that you are one of the elect. this would be mortal hubris, gain humility and some fear of God.

why does god have to play these weird fuckin mind games with us? just make things simple bro, give us an instruction manual or whatever

No I'm not saying anything about Calvinism. It says

John 10:27- My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

This means by abstaining from sex it is not possible to deprive someone of salvation. It is only possible to not have a child who would go to hell anyway.

Jesus died, went to "hell", or whatever afterlife was, and rose on the third day, went to heaven.
I think, it makes sense, if this event happened simultaneously for all deceased, those who could not have known Christ through the misfortune of being born too early, got to know him, and so on. It would be a bit arbitrary, if some ancient people had to spend thousands of years in limbo, just to wait for Christ.

However, it also would place an unfair extra requirement on those born after the fact, unless "knowing Jesus" would have a more abstract meaning like "knowing Logos". Being a Christian takes a certain amount of luck, or divine providence, it does not feel right that some souls would have preferential treatment.

What I'm saying is original sin and redemption by Jesus, seem to be a bit dependent on time and other factors outside of one's control.

>What I'm saying is original sin and redemption by Jesus, seem to be a bit dependent on time and other factors outside of one's control.

Yes, it sure seems like God isn't very much concerned with universalizing ACCESS to saving grace.

why did you mean by capitalizing access, was it some form of sarcasm?

No, because I'm not advocating for universalism but I do think its perfectly reasonable to expect the access to the gospel message ought to be universalized. At least give everyone a choice.

I can't give you a satisfying answer to that unfortunately, however what we do find in all avenues of life is recusive ever increasing detail. it might be assumed that complexity is a virtue.

another thing about why is religion is so complicated is that the whole idea of religion is to learn the truth, which ultimately is to learn of how God is. this is something that is by its very nature beyond us, but through that layered complexity we're spurned forward to always ask why? and thus get ever closer the the truth, to God.

I see where you're coming from however we are alive. God made us alive, and the first thing he ever says the first comandment is "go forth and multiply".

So by saying "we ought not have children, because if we do they might go to hell"

either you're saying that God was wrong and that we ought have not been alive in the first place. which sounds like gnostic wank to me.

or there's this assumption that humans exist spiritually before conception and can becomes saved pre incarnation. which honestly???

otherwise what is the argument? yes if you have kids they might go to hell. but they can't go to heaven without being born so it's a nessasry risk.

So you can eat sea bugs and where mixed fabrics but you're not allowed to abstain from procreation because God told the only two men capable of populating the world, Adam and Noah, to "be fruitful and multiply"? Makes no sense. You're just searching for the license to do what you want to do anyway. It has nothing to do with pursuing truth. What did Jesus say?

Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

I Corinthians 7 - 7 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

we've got nothing to lose

except our shackles

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the meme response would be to go full trad and say "no you shouldn't do those either"

however it's seems were cutting straws here.
if you are unable to have children this does not bar you from salvation obviously. however as outlined by my previous posts if you're following traditional Christian sexual morality, and in a sexual relationship (so married) then that sexual conduct must be completed with the potential and intent to cause conception.

Just go read the Humanae vitae

God said be fruitful and multiply. Checkmate, devil.

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Entrapment by an evil god.

You can do it safe in the knowledge that God is with them.

But it’s also the only way to defeat him. we need more souls for our army so that we can storm heaven

god decides whats evil

we ate from the fruit in the garden so we have just as much capacity for determining good and evil as he does. the text of genesis itself admits that had we eaten of the tree of life we would have been his equals in power

>God
>evil
big lel, brainlet.

"God is good" is not just a brainless church slogan. It's a statement of philosophical fact and revealed wisdom.

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No, it isn't. If god isn't good for humans, then the good/evil dichotomy itself becomes void and meaningless. Worse, it becomes useless.

But unborn children are already in heaven why take them out of it and risk never going back. You can say those children are destined to be born anyway but then if the human race was successful at collectively stopping having children than it was part of gods plan all along because no children would be waiting to be born in that situation because how could creations moving on a linear plane outsmart the creator beyond the confines of time

"God's only excuse is he doesn't exist." -Stendhal

>implying what is "good for humans" is actually good
You are very confused, grasshopper.

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Do gnostics even believe in an afterlife-hell? I thought they considered life on earth 'hell'.

>don't really know what life is
>know it hurts
>decide to have children
Sheep do stupid things OP. Such as believe in god, and other cruelties.

The point in having kids is you create a new soul to fight against the devil, though, in case you don't get the point of that. It's a militant religion, literally. Conservatism for the desert and waring that they've done in the desert realms for literally thousands of years. You need new men for the war. Less men and you'll lose. It's, ironically, an evolutionary thing. Like gays being bad or cleanliness being next to godliness. Gays spread disease. Being dirty spreads disease. Shit smells like sulfar, like a volcano, a pit to hell. It all ties together in a very primitive way.

But it is pointless. Having a child means adding to the christian world. Fuck it all. Antinatalism is a better option than foolishly assuming that after eons of stupidity that people will let that christfaggotry go. They won't. Eventually an AI god will be born programmed to act like AM at this point. Because the bot can't make heaven, it will emulate within itself copies of everyone in it's own heaven whilst torturing the fleshies that asked for it, literally, asked for punishment. Please robot overlord, please govern me, I can't handle all this freedom!

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sulfur*

No, I'm not. It does not matter whatever the explanation, or mystery, or deus ex machina Gotcha is supposed to be. A good that is not good for humans is no sort of good at all.

And the real reason why this is, is because there isn't a god in the first place, nor /should/ there be. The "god=good" stuff is just a la-la-la tautological i'm-right projection from the adherents onto a false value system. (but your humanism is the same thing) yes, with the peculiar advantage that is has a real referent: the human subject. That is why it wins.

There are different sort of goods and they are in battle with one another. Victory means for the human good to triumph over the godly good.

If hell is real then it's unconscionable to not teach your children faith in god.

spoken like a real materialist brainlet who thinks he knows everything. you don't know the final cause of the universe, of creation, or your own life. but you presume that YOUR idea that only good effects (ie, that which benefits you) can contribute to a good end must be the case. without actually showing your work, and while tossing off a bunch of ad hominems.

you're a maximum brainlet and i don't see any reason to try teaching you. pearls before swine.

do you know the final cause?

He's talking about the ammo for the sulfatum

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Alpha and Omega. The word. The beginning and the end, baby boy.

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tfw people repost your OC

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How do you know?

>How do you know?
Oh... so NOW you want to know. Ran out of ad hominems? Do you actually have an open mind or are you just waiting to throw your next pseudointellectual Hitchens fit.

>that creates something out of nothing?
physically impossible btw

I'm not an atheist, nor have I thrown any ad hominems. This is an anonymous imageboard. Not everyone is the same person.

You have me there.

I know because I've studied history and the OT and the NT and started with the greeks. Hellenized Jews before the first century were absolutely mad for Platonic philosophy. The coming of a messiah was expected, and Jesus was inevitable. God came down to Piraeus, to Nazareth, to be like a son of man. Guys like Philo and Paul and the apostles testified to it, most of them with their death. And the Neoplatonists and scholastics who came later confirmed it by reasoned argument.

I am not equal to the task of expressing truth here that can really only be revealed mystically. God as first principle, the Aristotelian prime mover. The uncaused cause in the beginning, in Genesis, and John 1 confirms Jesus was there in hypostasis. Jesus as God, creator of all, as a man and as a teacher. Teaching that which is the sole satisfier of man: the purest love, agape. The love of God and by that love the forgiveness of others, because emnity is the enemy. Where Jesus is, people are united. Where he is not, they are divided against each other. I wish I could thrust my mind upon you. Grace rains down upon us daily, we only need exercise the theological virtues faith, hope, and charity, and obey his command: love one another. Be merciful. When you next have a chance to strike, to harm with a word, withhold. That's the start to knowing.

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Ok thanks I guess. Those verses from Shakespeare are straight fire