Sonder

Unlikely

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Isn't this a lie? It hit me like a ton of bricks a year or two ago that most people are probably incredibly dull and lead equally dull and mundane lives. I think it was when I was reading that infographic article that's often posted on various boards about that volunteer in Africa who wrote an honest take on what Africans were life and basically they were dumb as bricks and their whole lives were just repetitive looped day after day affairs. Then I thought about how a lot of people have almost this intelligence threshold where if something comes up (whether from you or someone else or even the environment) that is too complex for them they almost shut down and get this eyes-glazed-over look and seem to not even be able to process it.
I honestly think that a lot of people are like dogs. They just do what they do based on instinct and they don't even really have thoughts so to speak. I'm almost certainly imagining a much more vivid and nuanced life for them then they even experience themselves. They probably don't even reflect on their life much at all. I've had people (mostly women to be real) tell me that they don't even understand why they do things or why they react to things certain ways. I couldn't fathom that. Imagine having that little self-understanding.

/thread.

dooood....other ppl have feelings n shiet and dey be thinkin on thangs...powerful stuff....yo pass the pipe homie cmon

I honestly think this is true only for people of 90 IQ and below. Everyone experiences different joys and hardships, it is just that to some onlookers what they do every day may seem mundane. The kind of people you see on The Jeremy Kyle show or on garbage reality TV, on the other hand, are so stupid they may as well be more animal than human.

Based sociopath

It's not really sociopathic if it's true. Modern life tends to monotony anyways so it's not really hard to believe that most people lead boring, uneventful lifes.

I do think its mostly about intelligence level. Somewhere just a notch below average the mind quickly becomes something close to braindead and its as though certain concepts can't even be grasped.
I unironically wonder sometimes if being on the path of rigorously questioning my previously held assumptions is turning me into a sociopath or something similar. Life has become confusing and terrifying.

Based Dr. Ford.

Dehumanizing people is textbook sociopathy, the post literally compared people to dogs

You're the exact kind of person I'm talking about honestly, just reacting with what's almost an algorithmic reply instead of truly thinking

Don't bother, he's an NPC

I know, I just wanted to poke him and study his reactions a little.

>I unironically wonder sometimes if being on the path of rigorously questioning my previously held assumptions is turning me into a sociopath or something similar. Life has become confusing and terrifying.
I used to wonder this too but then when I looked back on my life more objectively I realized that I have literally always had antisocial tendencies and I was just using this feeling of alienation bred from questioning assumptions held by the majority to justify my desire to be sadistic or cruel. Im not that bad, I have empathy and stuff, just that occasional strange antisocial behavior, impulsive and almost self-destructive, like i dont even enjoy being an asshole it just comes out of me.

Id say that if you are developing those kinds of behaviors you have to hold yourself accountable and not justify them by saying 'well im just overturning assumptions'. You can overtrun assumptions without being an asshole, and letting yourself fall into the habit because you feel justified only strengthens the impulse over time and makes you worse and worse. I dont know if I can even recover totally from that process, but I have at least stopped lying to myself about it, and now whenever I get that impulse I try to combat it by replacing it with empathy, or with just leaving the situation.

It is so easy to develop those behaviors because youre associating them with some kind of justification, and not seeing clearly the antisocial impulse for what it is.

It's not sociopathic if it's true. This isn't a hard concept. Dogs are cool, fag

Sociopaths are a minority, so it’s not a real shock you do this with most people. I would wish you well, but I’m afraid you won’t be able to appreciate the gesture, so I won’t.

>I am undeveloped and lack the ability to reflect or empathise?
>No, everyone else does.

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Do what with most people?

This, I love my dog.

Dismissing/dehumanizing others, refusing to acknowledge you’re sociopathic, feelings of uniqueness etc.

Are you able to emphasize with inanimate objects?

>I realized that I have literally always had antisocial tendencies and I was just using this feeling of alienation bred from questioning assumptions held by the majority to justify my desire to be sadistic or cruel.
Okay. What if I have no desire to be sadistic or cruel and generally I enjoy socializing and company? I've been a highly empathetic person all my life which is a trait that made me vulnerable to being exploited in the past even. Trying to work on it now but its tough because I'm empathetic and trusting by nature.
>You can overtrun assumptions without being an asshole
What is "being an asshole"? What does that mean? Are there certain questions I'm not allowed to ask? Is the belief that all humans have equal intelligence levels some sacred truth that must never be challenged?
It seems to me like you're
1. Projecting
2. Concern trolling
Or both. A third option, you're trying to talk yourself out of an uncomfortable truth with the argument that because its unpleasant or mean or not what most people would tell you a nice person thinks, therefore it must not be true.
Another fallacy in your post is that because you arrived at a conclusion through a biased process therefore the conclusion itself cannot be true. But that is obviously false.

You want to know the saddest thing I ever saw? When I was a boy, my brother and I wanted a dog, so our father took in an old greyhound. A greyhound is a racing dog. Spends its life running in circles, chasing a bit of felt made up like a rabbit. One day, we took it to the park. Our dad had warned us how fast that dog was, but... we couldn't resist. So, my brother took off the leash, and in that instant, the dog spotted a cat. I imagine it must have looked just like that piece of felt. He ran. Never saw a thing as beautiful as that old dog... running. Until, at last, he finally caught it. And to the horror of everyone, he killed that little cat. Tore it to pieces. Then he just sat there, confused. That dog had spent its whole life trying to catch that... thing. Now it had no idea what to do.

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Most people in my life that I interact with on a daily basis I would say are not the kind of people I described though. It seems you made an assumption about me that has turned out to be false.
> feelings of uniqueness
Can you point out anything in my posts that ever explicitly stated this or implied it?

Sonder being a noun is stupid.

If you are seeing people, even the most vile and disgusting, as anything less than human, you have a problem. Empathy is the joy of life.

I doubt he was actually confused

I empathize and love my mommy and doggie, but it seems like most people don't even THINK. And people who did horrible things, don't realize their mistakes and don't take steps to atone, forfeited their right to be treated with decency

>most people
Here’s the “assumption” AND the answer to your question

You can question HBD all you like, it's about not calling people niggers, or mocking those who do believe in equality, even if they're likely wrong. That is all I meant.

It is again very easy to rationalize latent cruel impulses as justified. A lot of people only care about HBD because it allows them shit on progressives, which is obviously an immoral impulse.

He was.

But the people you are describing as horrible are what you will become without empathy. Seeing evil people as less than human is the beginning of a slippery slope to full on sociopathic tendencies. Evil people, races, creeds, sexuality, annoyances; eventually you will see less and less people as human. Please reflect on this.

Not sure if this is real, but a good little piece of writing.

I already do. The notion that this will make me a cold-blooded murderer is hilarious, unlike those people, I don't engage in pointless cruelty

>assumption
When you said the phrase "do this with" it was in reference to how I was treating you, in a direct interaction. Therefore, I took the statement to be commentary on how I treated people in direct interaction. Not how I treated people in the abstract. The phrase "most people" in my original post was obviously a phrase meant to describe humanity in the abstract, as I imagine the condition I'm describing affects most people in general. Erroneously or not, I was picturing the sweeping masses of people with low enough IQs or whatsoever else.
>answer to your question
A feeling of uniqueness implies that I find myself to be special among my peers. But my actual real peers and how I consider them would show that this isn't the case, the people I associate with and talk to most of the time I don't consider to be "NPCs". I think of them as having thoughts, feelings, etc.
So as I see it you made the exact assumption I have described and are now backpedaling, since when you said "doing" to "most people" earlier you could have only been referring to an active choice that I was also "doing" to you, which you then said was "Dismissing/dehumanzing" and "refusing to acknowledge you're sociopathic" which from your PoV I did in fact do to you. But as I said "most people" earlier as a general abstract statement, I can't exactly do those above things to people I haven't even met but have only conceptualized hypothetically.

What's HBD? Also out of curiosity why do you think shitting on progressives is immoral?

You honestly believed those horrible people committed evil pointlessly? You honestly think that those horrible people didn’t feel justified in the atrocities they committed? It is the sociopath’s “justice” that leads to the unspeakable evil of humanity.

Human Biodiversity, a catch all for studies of differences in genetics and behavior within and between population, including sex differences but obviously most explosively 'racism', and somewhat less taboo classism. IQ is the big thing talked about but there's other stuff, it's just any genetic and phenotypic diversity among humans.

I have no love for progressives that aren't my actual family members but the impulse to shit on and mock people is a terrible habit to cultivate, you will start just automatically acting in that kind of way. At least for me this is true, which is why I posted above. It is easy to find a group of people who 'deserve' bad treatment, but why are you spending your time indulging in hateful behavior, what impulse are you satisfying or itch are you scratching.

Thanks for the info
>I have no love for progressives that aren't my actual family members but the impulse to shit on and mock people is a terrible habit to cultivate, you will start just automatically acting in that kind of way.
Not that I necessarily agree or disagree, but why do you think this? Would you agree or disagree that the impulse to "shit on" or mock people perhaps evolved in humans for a reason or has a beneficial impact on society overall?

You’re on Yea Forums so I am your peer, and you have dehumanized me. I have no reason to believe you wouldn’t do the same with the many people on this board who are not sociopathic. You think you are exceptional compared to someone else you have directly engaged with.

No, perchance it is the Comick, whom naughtie Play-makers and Stage-keepers haue iustly made odious. To the argument of abuse I will answer after. Onely thus much now is to be said, that the Comedy is an imitation of the common errors of our life, which he representeth in the most ridiculous and scornefull sort that may be; so as it is impossible that any beholder can be content to be such a one.

Yeah and yours is still fake you faggot

>You’re on Yea Forums so I am your peer
I get that you're a sophist and all so this what you do, you play with words, but I don't consider you my peer. That's not meant to be an insult, when I used the word "peer" in the post you just responded to I wouldn't use that word to label anyone that I don't know personally. In other words, it could never describe an user on Yea Forums.
>and you have dehumanized me
At this point in the conversation its probably the right time to ask you to define "human" and "dehumanize" in relation to the definition given for human. I'm curious to see if you have some meat behind your use of those words.
> I have no reason to believe you wouldn’t do the same with the many people on this board who are not sociopathic
Uh, I'm confused here. Does this sentence mean "I have no reason to believe you wouldn't [dehumanize] many people on this board who are not sociopathic"? Is that how you intended it to read? If so, why does the supposed sociopathy or not of the other "peers" (your usage) matter for your point?
> You think you are exceptional compared to someone else you have directly engaged with.
What do you mean by "exceptional"? In my own language I would say that I think we are "different". What does "exceptional" mean?

very sad!

A human is Homo sapiens sapiens, if you look closely you’ll find 7+ billion of them. They are the premier species and ultimate rulers of Earth. To dehumanize them is to misclassify them. “They are inanimate”, “they are less than that which qualifies human”. To my point, you do not seem ready to accept this fact (of being human) of people you are not intimately involved with. Not recognizing me or anyone else on Yea Forums as peers is a soft move in not recognizing us as human. This is because you only recognize your peers as human. You think you are exceptional because to you, you are one of the rare breed of this species to truly exist. For you, it seems there are billions of imposter automatons who can not fulfill the qualifications of humanity. This is sociopathy.

I empathize with unused park benches and abandoned malls more than most people I meet.

>Would you agree or disagree that the impulse to "shit on" or mock people perhaps evolved in humans for a reason or has a beneficial impact on society overall?
I think that much of human behavior evolved for reasons completely contrary to the harmony of a society, even the hunter gatherer environment we evolved in. Conflict inheres in nature, many of our evolved dispositions are immoral, zero sum power struggles. You could of course be entirely right. Carlyle talks about the necessity for 'hatred of scoundrels' and I do get the point. Id also mention though that concepts lke original sin seem to me specially designed to check natural human cruelty and other vices.

Personally however I find that I am just being antisocial because I have those tendencies. When I examine the feelings that accompany my desire to mock Progressives they are not a desire for a better society that I think Im accomplishing, it's just a childish impulse towards mockery and being mean, that I have in many other domains in life at times, where there is obviously no goal of bettering anything involved. I am positive that a shitload of people on the Left have the exact same impulse when they mock the RIght,(no im not saying 'both sides are the same'), I recognize the behavior, thinly veiled by pretensions towards making society better.

Perhaps for other people their judgments are in fact moral, and this dynamic doesn't apply. I only spoke about it because user said specifically he felt he was becoming sociopathic. I find though that when I really am thinking about the 'bettering of society' it is rather more abstract and emotionless, and doesnt involve any impulse to demean, but more looking at things as an engineering problem.

so we have two issues here I guess, virtue if you will, and consequentialist considerations, which are obviously entangled problems. Trying to conduct a scientific study on the purpose(genetic and cultural) of mockery in human society is so complicated as to be practically impossible, we can only concoct little theories that seem plausible, but I think its effect on the person doing it is clearly bad. Anecdotally I also find that irl things go immensely more smoothly if you don't behave in these 'justified cruelty' manners, though I can't deny that doing so does serve clear purposes for some people in amassing power or belittling rivals. Whether it also serves society in some manner...i really dont know, probably it must have at least some positive effects, alongside negative ones.

very unassertive post I know but that is about how I see the possibilties we have here.

>A human is Homo sapiens sapiens
Okay. So you're going with the scientific definition?
> To dehumanize them is to misclassify them.
But everything I've said remains consistent with the scientific definition of Homo sapiens.
>“They are inanimate”
Was never stated or implied.
>“they are less than that which qualifies human”
By the definition you yourself gave, I also did not do this.
> Not recognizing me or anyone else on Yea Forums as peers is a soft move in not recognizing us as human.
So you're going to continue to play the sophist? You still have yet to give an adequate description of "human" and you are ignoring my earlier post and continuously mischaracterizing my use of the word "peers". This is probably the single most important and genuine question I'll ask you - who exactly are you trying to fool?
>This is because you only recognize your peers as human.
I'll sub in "like me" for "human" in the sense that you are upset about in the above quotation to comment on it - this is untrue and never implied or stated in my posts. Of course more than my immediate peers I have conceptualized as human. Some people that I know personally, but not intimately, I think of as "NPC". Them being "NPC" has made it difficult for me to "know" them personally in the sense that there is nothing to know.
>You think you are exceptional because to you, you are one of the rare breed of this species to truly exist.
Are you ignoring the request to define what you mean when you use the word exceptional?
> This is sociopathy.
Psychologically speaking, what you described wouldn't alone be considered sociopathy. Are you using the term in a new way based on your own personal definition? If so it seems you are purposely and deceitfully acquainting it with the psychological term in order to try and provoke outrage.

>Id also mention though that concepts lke original sin seem to me specially designed to check natural human cruelty and other vices.
Interesting. I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on this.
> where there is obviously no goal of bettering anything involved
It could be that this is still for the best even though you perceive it as not being so because you personally don't intend it for the best. I'd wager many people who carry out beneficial actions in this way, if they are, don't even understand that they are beneficial.
>I am positive that a shitload of people on the Left have the exact same impulse when they mock the RIght,
Probably right.
> I only spoke about it because user said specifically he felt he was becoming sociopathic.
Yeah that was me. I said that because I feel like questioning my previously held assumptions has led to my sense of reality feeling horrifying at times, like I've thrown away the guidebook and I'm just hovering around in a weird clusterfuck. And I also feel like I'm becoming more and more different from people I know through this process and that most people probably would approve of me less and less as the other user in this thread probably indicates.
>Anecdotally I also find that irl things go immensely more smoothly if you don't behave in these 'justified cruelty' manners
Are you sure? I could see it being disastrous as well.
Very interesting and refreshingly lucid post. Would be cool to get more of your take.

Also just a note what I passed over and didn't greentext I agreed with for the most part which is why there was no response. Didn't want you to think I was ignoring portions of your ideas.

Original sin, whether you are a Christian who believes in its transcendent truth, or an atheist that views it as a social tool, or even a Spenglerian cultural artifact, I believe fosters more harmonious and productive societies by making people concentrate on lessening their naturally occurring bad behaviors and desires, and focusing on God and the virtues. My evidence for this is obviously highly speculative looks at history. There are many other such harmony producing concepts, usually most effective when tied into a religion.

>It could be that this is still for the best even though you perceive it as not being so because you personally don't intend it for the best. I'd wager many people who carry out beneficial actions in this way, if they are, don't even understand that they are beneficial.
I didn't think of this possibility and it's kind of intriguing though you seem to be attributing to social harmony a great deal of objective telos, a perspective I'm not necessarily opposed to but it's still something to consider.

I understand your sense of reality feeling horrifying(or I understand my version of it anyway) I had that too for a long while and still often do, the alienation from the people around you is also difficult. I have a fairly religious disposition so that is where I usually take refuge, but also in simple empathic interactions with the people around me. I don't know obviously for you what helps, it really is different for everyone but I do empathize with that feeling of confusion and revulsion.
As for disaster arising from behaving that way, you may be right in a sense it has gotten me into as many crazy situations acting like that as being an asshole, it does open doors though, and people are strangely reticent to abuse you when you behave like that. it may be that that behavior will have different outcomes based on other factors of how people you see individually. Thanks for the compliment too.

What a stupid and illfitting word.
There's no way you could fit it in a sentence that wouldn't sound idiotic.

You compared humans to dogs, that is misclassification (if the inanimate post wasn’t you, my apologies). Misclassification is dehumanization, you are making the human into something else. I understand your definition of “peers” but you must realize the underlying reasons why you have come to define it as such. For a normal person, being “peers” with someone isn’t a prerequisite for recognizing them as human. This isn’t a mischaracterization of what you said, it’s transitive, the only people you see as human are the peers that pass your “NPC” threshold. “Exceptional” as I used it is a feeling of superiority, implied by the rest of the sentence. If you don’t believe it’s sociopathy, surely you recognize one of its largest premises is that the individual in question does not consider themselves to be sociopathic. This, in combination with your original post is why I consider you sociopathic. Of course, I’m not a licensed doctor so I am not an authority, but like how you can tell when a person is in physical pain, there are obvious signs that point to mental disorders.

>who exactly are you trying to fool
I fool no one, especially not myself. How about you?

Greyhounds are really friendly, nice pets.
t. family used to breed them.

> I believe fosters more harmonious and productive societies by making people concentrate on lessening their naturally occurring bad behaviors and desires, and focusing on God and the virtues.
By what mechanism or pathway do you think this occurs? Through empathy with other man via the idea that everyone is a screw-up? By implanting an idea of needing to yearn for more?
> I don't know obviously for you what helps, it really is different for everyone but I do empathize with that feeling of confusion and revulsion.
My way of coping is through religious thought too although it may not seem like it from my posts, as well as escapism through art and also by posting on Yea Forums and hoping someone like you empathizes. As I'm sure you know some days are harder than others. Empathic interactions with others are helping less and less as I feel less and less understood by my peers the further down the road I go. I mostly keep all this to myself and I hope it will end soon and I land on some new solid ground. Reading stuff from people who have experienced it too also really helps.
>As for disaster arising from behaving that way, you may be right in a sense it has gotten me into as many crazy situations acting like that as being an asshole, it does open doors though, and people are strangely reticent to abuse you when you behave like that. it may be that that behavior will have different outcomes based on other factors of how people you see individually.
Would be interested to hear more about your experiences.
>Thanks for the compliment too.
Of course, its just a result of my natural drive to repay you for the perceived good service of empathizing with me and providing good discussion, but it was also genuine as well.

>You compared humans to dogs, that is misclassification
It was a comparison which by its very nature can't be a misclassification. If I literally said that humans were dogs then yes it would be a misclassification.
I'm probably not going to read the rest of your post right now as I'm getting pretty bored. I might read it later and respond. No insult meant just legitimately how I feel.

I quit drinking after a decade of bad decisions. I once felt morally superior, yet held empathy for everyone I met, but I now come to realize I can’t even control my moral impulses. I doubt that I would actually be able to pull the lever in the trolly problem. My underlying thought that humans are selfish and dreadful creatures underneath was proved right upon reflection of myself over the past decade. With this clarity of mind I don’t know what to do with myself. I can’t simply drink it away or I’ll cause more problems for myself and those around me, but if people are truly terrible things, why do I care?

Fair enough, and I still wish you well. Though I am not sure what that means to you.

I believe it's honestly as simple as not engaging in the vices, people will naturally act well, most people desire harmony with each other on some level, but it gets fucked up by pride, by cruelty, by all manner of things, I believe these things have to be looked at rather constantly in oneself to check them.

I also have basically nobody but people like yourself on Yea Forums for this type of empathy(and old books as you say). I've met a very very few guys irl who seem to get it, but they were never my good friends for personality reasons, who Ive always had a more like detached kind of empathy for, like I would have for a child, but not patronizingly, idk it's hard to explain.
I do wish you well though, it is not really a fun road, I question what the fuck we are even doing on it, but it's like a ride you can't get off. I would say that you should never dismiss the simple empathy that can exist between very different people, who might not even understand each other, there is almost always some point of human contact. There are also those moments of religious meaning that I think somehow justify all the confusion and unhappiness because of their sheer beauty and grandeur, they seem to transcend the very notion of 'is this worth it'. Very hard to remember at times but yeah.

>I unironically wonder sometimes if being on the path of rigorously questioning my previously held assumptions is turning me into a sociopath or something similar. Life has become confusing and terrifying.
For me it was just compassion fatigue and finally coming to terms with the simple fact that no matter how much or how little good you do the difference is mostly likely unsubstantial, especially as one person attempting to confront the overwhelmingly immense and complex structures of suffering that have been essentially normal for hundreds of years at the very least. I still want to help people, but only as much as I want to make art, or eat good food, or learn new things, which is to say that I want to help people on my terms and only up to the point that I derive satisfaction from it: it is ultimately just another form of pleasant passtime prior to my death. Life is confusing and terrifying but these are simple facts and it is up to us to learn to live with such things, and overly worrying over the horrors of living does little or nothing to reduce said horror either for the actor in question or the acted upon. You are small. Breathe through your nose. Go run your hands on treebark. Read a nice book. Say something nice to somebody. Go for a walk.

Never said they weren't.

It's not so much the realisation that other people have lives and thoughts, but more the awe-inspiring, incomprehensibly grand scale of human existence, the knowledge of one's tiny, ephemeral part in the endless symphony of life.