Why anglos get hostile when you point out the fact that over 60% of the content of Silmarillion, is basically a retelling of Kalevala and Finnish lore and cosmology?
Most of the time they try to downplay it as: >Kalevala was just one of many of Tolkien's influences
While in reality the bulk of the material, plot and even cosmogony is straight up derived from Finnish mythology. The story of Turin is 90% identical to the story of Kullervo.
The main forces of Evil are always situated in the North, just like in Kalevala. The Silmarils are stolen from Morgoth's Crown by Beren and Luthien exactly the same way how Väinämöinen steals back the Sampo from the Witch of the North.
Both the Silmarils and Sampo are lost to the sea, ie. scattered around the world.
Huge bulk of the etymology of various languages of the Tolkien's world are even straight up Finnish words with little to none of trying to cover up their origin.
For example, Ilmen of Arda is just the word Ilma (Air in Finnish or reference to Ilmarinen)
The list goes on and on.
Are anglos hostile when you bring these facts because they like to think Tolkien as one of their "own"? Or try to hide the fact that Tolkien hated Arthurian legend and found even the Germanic lore quite childish to his tastes?
Why the hostility and downplay of the influence of Kalevala and Finnish language in regards to Silmarillion?
Why anglos try to deny or discredit the influence it had on Tolkien and his mind?
It is clear that you have not read either the Silmarillion or Kalevala.
>"It's just bible bro! Tolkien was catholic
This is what anglos actually believe. This is what most of the Americans believe.
They think of Gandalf as Jesus, while in reality he was fashioned in the likeness of great sage Väinämöinen. Again, the anglo shouts: "No, Gandalf is Odin! The Grey Wanderer" while ignoring the fact that The Finnish Deity and Hero Who Inspired Tolkien to Create Gandalf and Tom Bombadil was no other than the wise sage Väinämöinen.
Again, the Anglo denies this fact and his anger aroused he argues: "NO, Gandalf is Merlin! The great Wizard of Arthurian legend"
Even though it is clear that Merlin, who resided in a tower, is a direct reference to the evil wizard Saruman whom Gandalf overthrows.
Just like after the Lord of the Rings plot ends, Gandalf leaves on a ship to the undying lands. Just like Väinämöinen leaves the ship after Child of Marjatta is crowned as the king of Kalevala (Reference to Aragorn)
Why Anglos deny all these similarities? Why they cannot just admit that "Yes. Kalevala was the main and sole inspiration for Professor Tolkien"
Even the first story Tolkien wrote, was about the Finnish hero Kullervo.
But you probably ignore this fact with your Anglo brain "It's nothing. He was studying neoplatonic and orphic theogony. Finland is nothing!"
Christian Price
of course not but I've read tolkien all my life, and while plotpoints and characters might be reminiscent of Kalevala, the metaphysics is entirely Hellenic.
Brody Hall
maybe it's just coincidence
David Edwards
>Kalevala was the main and sole inspiration for Professor Tolkien that's simply not true and you know it
David Moore
>might be reminiscent
Are you a troll? Or are you perhaps totally ignorant of books Tolkien wrote?
Have you read this book?
Do you think Kullervo MIGHT BE inspired by the Finnish Kullervo?
Why you just cannot admit for once: Yes. Tolkien was mainly inspired by the Finnish mythology.
Why are you so envious that Tolkien elevated and refined your nation's otherwise irrelevant mythos into a world-renowned corpus of literature?
Wyatt Russell
Kalevala, a book written by Lönnrot, is composed of completely unrelated verses and genres. Its story doesn't exist in any of the original material.
Kullervo in particular is just made up by Lönnrot.
Aaron Morgan
This post is a typical peek into the Anglo brain and mindset
>Tolkien did not retell the story of Kalevala! He refined it! He added Dwarves! He added the Hobbits to the vast and empty cosmos of Kalevala heroes
In a similar fashion, do you also think that Melkor/Morgoth refined the song of Iluvatar? So you think that he was just refining the song of Eru with this disharmony?
Is this what anglos believe?
Gavin Hall
By the way, I'm not anglo, I'm much worse (for you).
It was certainly a huge inspiration >main one of them >sole absurd
Gavin Walker
isn't over 60% of all literature just a retelling of things already written? why focus on just Tolkien?
John Allen
>found even the Germanic lore quite childish to his tastes? He actually loved it so much he spent a huge chunk of his career sperging about Beowulf and his notion of "northern courage" trying to jive it with his cuckstianity.
Noah Rogers
OP is probably of an inferior race and therefore his life is about subverting the superior ones.
Christian Gonzalez
Ah, so it was all about Beowulf all along.
We can suppose that the Finnish myth, Kalevala, played no part - at all - whatsoever?
Brayden Sanchez
A Swede no less.
Brandon Mitchell
Are you a genuinely autistic finn like the /int/ history revisionist or are you just playing pekka?
Jaxson Nelson
What exactly makes you think Finnish mythology is radically different from the rest of northern mythology
It’s literally all based on the general western mythos developed in the levant
Mason Myers
>/int/ history revisionist
It's not exactly a secret that Fornjót (King of Finland) was the first direct paternal ancestor of William I of England.
Most of the royal families of Europe have had their beginning in the ancient kings of Finland lineage.
Of course, the anglos deny this. Saying that Fornjót did not exist! It is all a myth! Finland has always been nothing! Its nothing!
Cooper Allen
You were making great points until you said this
Caleb Smith
I don't know, What exactly makes you think Finnish language is radically different from the rest of indo-european languages?
Jace Foster
>Väinämöinen, the central character of The Kalevala, is a shamanistic hero with a magical power of song and music similar to that of Orpheus >Seppo Ilmarinen, is a heroic artificer (comparable to the Germanic Weyland and the Greek Daedalus). >Lemminkäinen, a handsome, arrogant and reckless ladies-man, is the son of Lempi (English: lust or favourite). He shares a very close relationship with his mother, who revives him after he has been drowned in the river of Tuonela while pursuing the object of his romantic desires. This section of The Kalevala echoes the myth of Osiris. >Ukko (English: Old man) is the god of sky and thunder, and the leading deity mentioned within The Kalevala. He corresponds to Thor and Zeus. >There are also similarities with mythology and folklore from other cultures, for example the Kullervo character and his story bearing some likeness to the Greek Oedipus. The similarity of the virginal maiden Marjatta to the Christian Virgin Mary is also striking >The Orphic Egg in the ancient Greek Orphic tradition is the cosmic egg from which hatched the primordial hermaphroditic deity Phanes/Protogonus (variously equated also with Zeus, Pan, Metis, Eros, Erikepaios and Bromius) who in turn created the other gods.[5] The egg is often depicted with a serpent wound around it. >>One egg's lower half transformed >And became the earth below, >And its upper half transmuted >And became the sky above;
Why should I respect any critical analysis of yours if you can't even figure out how to space right? Read some Catholic mythology. The entire story of Illuvitar creating a symphony with the songs of the Ainur, transforming the discord of Melkor, is a very simply and beautiful expression of Medieval Christian theology. No one doubts that he was inspired by other folk lores, but these appear only as a matter of style. The actual content is a Catholic allegory, which, if you knew your literature, has a deep history in English literature and was perhaps a greater inspiration to Tolkein than Finnish folklore, especially given his decades of study of English linguistics.
Brody Morales
>I'm not a filthy Anglo, I'm Swedish Nice self-own
Nolan Hughes
>It is just catholic christian theology!
The name of the fucking book is Silmarillion. There are three Silmarils, just like Sampo produces three qualities.
The war over Silmarils is the MAIN THEME of the Silmarillion, just like the main theme of Kalevala is the war over Sampo. Both are scattered in the end so that no one possesses them proper
Forget for a moment that Tolkien was born in England. Forget Catholicism. Put the Bible down, and go borrow Kalevala, and agree with me for once.
>Forget for a moment that Tolkien was born in England.
Gavin Garcia
Ok I made a small mistake here. Well, forget he was an Englishman.
The real question is: can you really argue that the Silmarils have some sort of similar theme in the Christian legend (or even Orphic) when contrasted to the Magical Sampo?
Easton Brooks
this is a weird troll thread but enjoyable
Thomas Lopez
Dude. Learn to space. You're a newfag, and therefore all your opinions are inherently shit. It's okay if you don't know anything about Catholic theology, but you should at least believe the author when he says he was motivated by Catholic theology. There are correspondences between him and Lewis on this subject. Tolkein refused the idea of strong symbolism or overt theological works like Lewis' because he did not believe he had the authority to make such statements. But being steeped in medieval writing, particularly Catholic and English thinking, these were his philosophical and theological ideas. What you are looking at are surface similarities--aesthetic features only. No one debates this. But it is absolutely ridiculous to say that Tolkein was some kind of occult norse writer, to suggest that his writings were just a rebranding of Finnish folk-lore. Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion are a play thing from an expert linguistic, a hobby project of writing his beloved faith in the style of Gaelic and Norse (read Old English) folk lore. It is, as literature, related to Milton's Paradise Lost, which was a telling of Anglican theology in the style of a Greek/Roman epic. Before you get stuck in your autistic obsession with Finland, try reading early and middle English literature. Take a look at Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, or Pearl, or Temple of Glass. Chaucer would help you too. You should also read Confessions, and City of God, and the Summa too to understand the theological origins of Lord of the Rings. For crying out lout, Tolkein isn't some mysterious figure from the distant past; we know a lot about him, his interests, and the body of knowledge he worked with. Be humble.
Gavin Martinez
Argonautica and Holy Grail stories. Sampo also seems to be the same as the World Mill and/or the Axis mundi, and not a handheld object (unless you argue that a god can wield it). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grottasöngr something else >According to the old poems Sampo was made of a feather of a swan, a corn of barley, a ball of wool, a drop of milk and a shaft of a distaff. The above “ingredients” show that the power of Sampo could be connected with various sources of livelihood and, thus, with the emergence of culture. Sampo has been seen as a complex mill making salt, food and money. >In the old Finnish poems a synonym is often used with the word Sampo: Kirjokansi, which means the night sky full of stars. This has led to a theory that Sampo has first of all a cosmic aspect. Sampo could be the cosmic center pole or a tree attached to the Pole Star. It keeps the sky up and the stars rotate around it The word "sampo" is also a loanword from indo european.
Kayden Jackson
But isn't there the element of downplaying/underestimating the influence of Finland at work again?
For God's sake, the whole language of the high elves, Quenya, is modelled almost identically with Finnish syntax, structure. Pic related. The whole internet is full of references. the whole Grammar of Quenya is modelled mainly after Finnish, with some minor Latin influences.
Again it is said to perceive aura of smugness and denial written all over your post "Finland was nothing. A small influence, a momentarily tribute to the Northern spheres of Europe, in truth Tolkien meant this and meant that.. blah blah"
I really tried to give people like you chance, to perhaps change my mind about the anglo, but even this thread, sadly, has only reinforced my initial view of this race.
Tolkien wouldn't be upset by this realization, why should I be? t. Anglo
Ryan Adams
>Why anglos get hostile when you point out the fact that over 60% of the content of Silmarillion
Why do you think "opinions on the silmarillion" is something most "anglos" have? I'd be hard pressed to find a person in the streets of london who knows what it is.
Dominic Bennett
Lönnrot was a native Finnish speaker.
Carson Phillips
What kind of hostility do these imaginary 'anglos' display?
Benjamin Campbell
I don’t know why people care? If you’re of the opinion that Tolkien’s works are Finnish cosmology, or are rip offs of Icelandic sagas, or allegories for Christ, and this ruins it for you, just go fucking read the Bible or the Eddas or whatever the Finnish cosmological myths are written in.
I think Tolkien is fun to read (other than his fucking family tree expositions or his linguistic autism in the appendices) and that’s the only reason you should read a fiction novel
Xavier Adams
>The similarity of the virginal maiden Marjatta to the Christian Virgin Mary is also striking That's because the ending of Kalevala is entirely of Lönnrot's making, specifically referencing the coming of christianity to the North, thus the old gods (and their sage Väinämöinen with them) leaving, to return when time is ripe (le open ended pseudoapocalyptic prophecy).
Dominic Wright
>If you’re of the opinion
But it is not exactly opinion. Quenya was modelled after Finnish. The myths of Beleriand in Silmarillion are basically just Kalevala stories retold and some dwarfs added to them.
Most anglos try to downplay these as just "well that is your opinion", while in truth is objectively recognized and academically agreed fact that cannot be debated or opinionized: it is the truth
This is from Tolkien letters: >: »Although he never finished it, Tolkien later gave Kalevala credit as being “the original germ of the Silmarillion” (Letters 87)
So even Tolkien himself says that Silmarillion was mainly inspired by Kalevala.
Most anglos on this board,, who mostly read Beowulf, have never read Kalevala. They never will read Kalevala.
Even when Tolkien's own letters tell that "Yes, Silmarillion was in fact mainly inspired by Kalevala", anglo tries to downplay this Finnish influence by saying something along the lines "Well that is just your opinion. We can see even the Biblical story of Fall in Silmarillion if we look closely" while in truth he is again downplaying the main influence of Silmarillion, being the Kalevala and Finnish language.
The anglo could never say something along the lines: "Silmarillion would have never been written if it was not for Kalevala"
That would be a defeat to the anglo, his hubris, his pride etc. This is the problem here
Cooper Kelly
Hostile? I doubt they get hostile to anything but you discussing it in confrontational tones such as this. When you lead your entire argument with the evil residing in the North in both, you might need to rethink it. Yes, Norse mythology was hugely influential, especially in a few specific tales. There's a massive theological transformation, though. The edenic and creational implications of the silmarils are new to Tolkien, and his elvish derived as much from welsh as finnish. I also notice you left aside any analogue to the lord of the rings itself, despite being not as familiar with Kalevala as I'd like to be for this discussion. This is absolute idiocy, relating adaptations of some legends to the corruption of the whole of creation is pure spite.
He also didn't "hate" the arthurian mythos, he just found it less native to Anglo-Saxon society- he saw a distinct welshness in it, he didn't see it as a bad thing even to the extent of his similarly overstated distaste for the irish legends. Hell, he even worked on his own Sir Gawain and the Green Knight translation and Morte D'Arthur retelling, much like the kullervo () that he worked on as an undergrad.
David Young
So what about this letter, when professor Tolkien is discussing Kalevala in his letters, he states (regarding The Kalevala)
>“the original germ of the Silmarillion” (Letters 87)
This being a reference to Kalevala.
Maybe it was a mistake by Tolkien by stating such strong statement? Surely he meant the Bible?
Perhaps this letter is a forgery?
Julian Richardson
Again with jumping into an argument like a confrontational asshole... Yes, Kalevala was the primary influence behind the Silmarillion. That doesn't make it a pure retelling, and there are other hugely significant influences on it. Kalevala is also not similarly influential to the rest of Tolkien's oeuvre. There's no Anglo conspiracy to downplay Finnish influence, it's just relatively unknown compared to Christian theology and the Silmarillion less known than Lord of the Rings. You also skipped past the rest of the points I addressed.
Cameron Russell
You are mixing up Norse myths and lumping them together with Finnish mythos.
First of all, the Black Speech of Tolkien was modelled after old norse and icelandic words. He found it hideous, disgusting language.
That is totally in contrast to the high elven language of Quenya that was modelled after Finnish.
I would go as far as to say, if one cannot speak fluent Finnish and speak Quenya, one cannot truly enjoy Silmarillion and the works of Tolkien, without any deeper understanding of the world.
Like Tolkien himself said, he made the world for the language to be spoken of, most native Finnish speakers can understand Quenya naturally, for it is so close that it could be considered a Finno-Ugrian language rather than invention of Tolkien
Jaxon Gonzalez
Who cares? It's an incredible work regardless. Tolkien himself wouldn't and didn't deny any of those influences. Stealing is inherent to good art. It's how creativity works.
>Child of Marjatta is crowned as the king of Kalevala The Finns took that bit from the Bible, though. The ending of Kalevala is pretty much a mythologised retelling of Christianity supplanting the native pagan traditions.
>Tolkien is boring! >Kalevala is boring >Who cares! WHO EVEN CARES! NOBODY EVEN READS LORD OF THE RINGS! >NOBODY CARES! >DELETE THIS INT GARBAGE THREAD
You are clearly seething
Joshua James
>First of all, the Black Speech of Tolkien was modelled after old norse and icelandic words. He found it hideous, disgusting language. lolno, it's agglutative. Far more in common with old middle-eastern langs pre-arabic.
Dominic Cook
I have my doubts on that. Why would Tolkien put the language created by Jehovah himself, the one which Abraham spoke in UR of Mesopotamia to be the basis of his black speech?
Most likely, it shares the similarities (as it does) with the Norsemen who raided the isles of Britain, killed the servants of God and raped, pillaged and murdered those Christian faith, of whom which Tolkien was a member of.
Jacob Nguyen
He wasn't trying to make a political statement, he just thought some languages sounded ugly.
Hudson Foster
Doubt
Liam Wright
Success breeds jealousy : the thread
Jordan Bennett
>Why would Tolkien put the language created by Jehovah himself You'd have to ask him why he did it. Black Speech has been studied and found to be similar to certain pre-Arabic writings. >Most likely, it shares the similarities (as it does) So this is ho you convinced yourself of the finniah history stuff, ignoring the material and studies surrounding it to make some stuff up without basis. >with the Norsemen They ended up converting to his brand of Cuckstianity and he was about as much as a Norseboo as he was an uralic one going by his letters. And it was done willingly while you fags got it forced on you by those same norsefags.
In any case, kys. You're no more funny than you're convincing.
Owen Ward
> he was about as much as a Norseboo as he was an uralic one going by his letters
Am I mistaken here? Is Quenya modelled after Finnish or Norse/Scandinavian languages? Could you check that?
Ayden Nelson
So you could as far as to say that the Norse culture, language and myths played bigger part of writing/creating Silmarillion than the Finnish Kalevala and Finnish myths/language?
Even when considered that Tolkien himself said in a letter that "Kalevala was the original germ for the Silmarillion", you would still go as far as to say that the Norse played as big part, if not even bigger, than the Finnish culture-heritage-etymology-myth?
Elijah Thomas
You do realize that arguing with things no one but you said makes you look just as much of a sperg but even more of a dishonest one. Take your meds.
Luis Butler
Why people just cannot give the Finland the credit/respect it deserves? As soon as the huge influence of Kalevala, the initial inspiration for Tolkien to write Silmarillion, is brought up into discussion there arrives hordes and spawns of posters to trying to downplay the Finnish influence and discredit it by saying things like "No it was about the bible. It was about the norse mythology. That is simply untrue it Kalevala was not that big of a deal, Beowulf was the main inspiration"
You just cannot admit it, can you? It would physically hurt you to admit the greatness of Kalevala and how huge part of Silmarillion owes to the finnish national epic
Elijah White
this, also that's why the US looks the way it does
Elijah Lewis
Why can't Finns credit Sweden for all the work done on the Kalevaala by the Swede Lonnrot?
Luis Hughes
>credit/respect it deserves Most people don't even know what Finland is, and the rest are seething Swedes like .
Jaxson Gomez
There is nothing new under the sun. He also borrowed Ring of Power from Wagner. I will say T-dog gets credit for keeping these stories alive while krauts and scands let their culture rot.
Grayson Allen
He defiled those stories and added little children character to them
In a same fashion how Melkor corrupted Elves so that the degenerated into to hideous Orcs, Tolkien debased the mythos of Kalevala to his own designs and corrupted the original Northern spirit for le hobbiton le hibbit has a cool sword wahh he has a cool sword
>muh dildo braggings >slay le dragongs >big mage with powerful spells, woah >orcs vs. humans >virgin elve pussies >took an arrow in to the kne >"run, fools" -- T: Gandhi
