/trad/ general

sorry spiritual knowledge doesn't come in drive through takeaways

Don't be a cunt. I didn't say that.

what is tradition

things which have been passed down since time immemorial, specifically metaphysical knowledge and all its secondary applications

What are some under-the-radar Christian traditionalist books? Ones I may not have heard of.

>Kalki and Jesus are the same.
It is to see the same phenomenon with different languages, aesthetics and cultural references.

The Bestiary of Christ by Louis Charbonneau-Lassay

I dont know why people used to denigrate Evola here, I've been reading him and he is honestly making the most sense out of anybody I have ever read.
I feel like he's taking things I didn't know how to express myself and putting them into words. Honestly I enjoy the self-help stuff he writes more than the religious study and politics. He is strangely motivational.

Who here /traditionalistic conservative marxist/

Evola is great. I have always liked Evola.

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You would get less responses if you just asked who here is not a traditionalist conservative Marxist

marxism is historicist and philosophically materialist. i don't see how it could ever be compatible with traditionalism

Traditionalism with a capital T is a school of thought that claims all religions and cultures have a common origin in a metaphysical truth, based on the fact that many share the exact same traditions and beliefs regardless of how isolated they were from each other.
Guenon and Evola, the two leading Traditionalist writers, also believed in a cycle of ages, and that man was falling/fallen (in a state of spiritual devolution) despite our obvious progress in technology and science.

You cant just pick and choose word salad user
Marxism is explicitly anti-traditional and anti-conservative in every sense
Either you dont understand Marxism or you dont understand Traditionalism

His Orientations essay was the first thing I read and it really hit home.
I know what he means when he says his goal isnt to be a teacher but rather a fellow companion leaving a trail to attract other like minded people and help them along the path, because it really feels like he understands the way I think.

ANALNATHRACH UTHVAS BESAD DOCHIEL NIENVEH

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Opinions on Charles Upton?

What book is that essay in? Just read a great essay by him in Intro to Magick II (the one about esoterism and morality)

I get ex hippy boomer vibes from him. kind of a cheeseball

Its in A Traditionalist Confronts Fascism and Handbook for Right Wing Youth

rent free, have sex etc

don’t teach these plebs the charm of making, you will burn their minds

>this thread is not on /biz/

can someone explain the symbolism involved here

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Krishna says Jnana Yoga is superior in the Gita, and he is right. The Upanishads themselves clearly indicate that knowledge is the central and moat important component of the path and Jnana-Yoga is the path of knowledge. Nobody says Tantra is higher except for Tantrists.

I'm not a perennialist but The Reign of Quantity was so excellent and I only recently finished reading it and want to reread it again. Very dense but extremely rewarding. Is there a better critique of modernity? I'd like to read it.

>Is there a better critique of modernity?
Hell no, that’s the GOAT

I like Guenon but you're right about this. I wasn't initiated and I read his books on metaphysics. I'm not part of a traditional order.

How fucked am I?

yeah superior to just fucking around
the lineage of krishna doesn't know about tantra either so

Maybe try reading Revolt Against the Modern World?

Is there any reason to view Tantra as a higher path aside from the self-aggrandizing claims of Tantrists? No

Evola doesn't interest me much. I think I'll reread some Debord or try John of the Cross.

>Debord
Read superior Rauol Vaneigem. Debord is a typical Frenchie obscurantist

Drop pills on Shenism, gentlemen. Cheers in advance.

>i don't see how it could ever be compatible with traditionalism
The Marxist critique of capital can be compatible with Traditionalism if viewed from a metaphysical pov.

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yeah if you don't want to spend multiple lifetimes chasing your own tail
nobody became enlightened being a book nerd

the "humanist" side of marx makes some interesting points about alienation and whatnot, but his historical dialectical materialism claptrap is fundamentally incompatible with tradition. ive been meaning to check out that book that. an user was kind enough to share an epub in a past thread

No, I know of Raoul and he's a hack.

This is good and not just some dumb MAGA shit?

Yes, though it is polemical at times, and the book was published in 2000, which was way before Trump had ambitions of becoming POTUS. You can also check the Cosmotech threads on warosu for excerpts from the book.

Marxism of the late 20th and early 21st century doesn't really have a lot of things to do with marx

He's not the most influential marxist

Then you're missing out

What would be the academic reaction if you brought up Evola or Guenon in a conversation/paper?

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Burning at the stake in a public venue

I unironically think Evola could get you ostracized socially, but what about Guenon? I feel like he is pretty inoffensive politically

I cited Evola in a film class essay but my prof either had no idea who that was or didn’t bother checking out my works cited lol

Is Plato traditionalist?

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In theory, there’s nothing wrong with this. In fact, a lot of great and valid traditions have records of spiritual geniuses supposedly enlightened without a teacher, self-taught. This is an accepted (although minor) part of Sufism, for instance. There’s some recorded Sufi masters known to not have had any personal teachers but who simply were interested in Sufism and, so to speak, enlightened themselves. In practice, however, it’s different. The average self-taught student will take some minor experiences to be a great enlightenment, repeat some idea or practice in their heads over and over if they like it until they perhaps learn they need to change it up, not necessarily have the presence of mind to keep up their spiritual practice at precisely the most crucial moments, and so on. It’s basically the principle that we can’t really see ourselves too well without someone else holding up a mirror to us. Keep in mind I don’t dawn over Guenon and myself think his view on “Tradition” is a bit flawed (for instance, it made him discount someone like, say, the Sarmouni/Sufi G.I. Gurdjieff, and subsequently made some of his acolytes here on Yea Forums thoughtlessly discount him as well).

A Buddhist/Hindu perspective, accepting the idea of reincarnation, would say that the rare self-enlightened figures — like Ramana Maharshi, for instance — were those who already had such an intense practice in their previous lives that they were able to quickly complete it in this one, the records of their past efforts and glimpses of enlightenment being deeply engrained in their soul.

I think they only care whether your paper is below a certain threshold when passing through a plagiarism algorithm. I once cited Guenon and Kaczynski in the same essay and nothing happened to me.

If you're Bible based you ain't trad.

I didn’t actually cite Evola in the essay, or cite anything really, I just included him in the works cited along with some other sources because of paper requirements. I didn’t really need to cite anything to make my points, but i included Evola because his Buddhism book influenced my thought in the paper in a general sort of way

this might be the only flaw i can see in Guenon aside from his rageboner against modernism

I am skeptical of that. Indian traditions were developed before you had widespread literacy and the internet. A peasant couldn't just pick up a copy of the Gita and read it at home two thousand years ago. At worst, a thoughtful life even without initiation will give you good enough karma to be reborn in a circumstance in which you could be initiated. I get the insistence on initiation - any initiatory cult (I don't use that word in the bad way) worth a shit will trace their line of disciplic succession back to some god somewhere. It's a way of affirming that you've got "the goods" so to speak. Like I said at worst you'll just be born in better circumstances and have the opportunity to be initiated in a later life. You've got an infinite amount of time. Don't sweat it.

It's not impossible, but initiation makes it so much easier reaching metaphysical realization coming to it yourself without a teacher. Why cut through the Anazon Rainforest with a butter knife towards realization when you can hack through it with a machete or take the bus?

The problem with that is that at this point in the Kali Yuga the machete stores are all out of machetes

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True, but these routes towards initiation are becoming more lost and obscure by the day. It's better to do your best and get initiated while you can.

kek

So given that traditionalists reject evolution (I reject it too as a plausible explanation of the diversity of living beings, but please let’s not argue about this), what’s the alternative? Practically speaking, how did all this diversity of natural life actually come about?
>inb4 God went poof and they magically appeared

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>God/Brahman created the space for the universe and the elements contained within it to fill the space
>these elements coalesced and something something things were made

Would it then require very special conditions for new species to come about? A sort of elemental cataclysm that mixed up the elements to produce new combinations? Is there any particular reason why we don’t see new species manifesting from time to time?

essences are both emergent and eternal. the universe is set up in such a way that the essence of some designer animal we'll engineer in 50 years is already accounted for, in the same way that the Form of a Table preceded the first table because we live in a realm where such a thing as a table was kind of a given from the very start

failing that, the Golden Age narrative and evolution are not mutually exclusive: the Golden Age simply was the consciousness of early hominids, before they had "fallen"/contracted into discursive awareness

I assumed all the guenonfags were white.

>he used the chair/table form meme

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Not really, he was trying to conserve the nearly dead Greek "middle ages" which had ended with Socrates, which would mark the transition to the Silver Age, which is the age of Rome. He syncretized a bunch of Near Eastern influences in his metaphysics which in retrospect was the announcement of the concept of monotheism to the West, the eventual adoption of which heralded the Bronze Age. Socrates/Plato are best understood as biographers, and consequences, of the of the collapse of Greek civilization. Neetchee was among the first to formulate this break in Western history with his Apollonian-Dionysian dichotomy, misunderstood by almost everyone like most of his ideas.

I think he was traditionalist in the sense that he considered Homer and the Homeric worldview to be a departure from the actual spiritual traditions of Near Eastern antiquity, and so rejected it in favor of Pythagorean, Orphic, Egyptian, and Chaldean thought which he considered of much older age and more in line with metaphysical truth. Basically he considered Homer anti-traditional and so he wanted to go back to a time before Homer.

you don't, Rene was an autistic retard.

How long do you think it will be before we can actually discuss these guys in university without the social stigma

Evola was heavily influenced by Plato, which is clear in books like Pagan Imperialism, but no Plato wasn't Traditionalist.

>Currencies are backes by military
no they aren't, they're backed by the credit-worthiness of their issuers

Never

Nah people will get over this leftard craze in a couple of decades

>trad generals are back
OH BOY HERE WE GO AGAIN

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based

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Guenon sucks Evola is way better

>hurrr he post dis author i no like he bad!!!!!! i espose him!!!!!!!!

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ADOLF..........

Don't forget St. Teresa of Avila and St. Ignatius of Layola.

What do you understand by intellectual intuition (a term so often repeated by Guenon)? I don’t know if he gives a rather extensive explanation about the term, probably not.
But would it be correct to say that it is a synthetic means of knowledge of the Universal Principles or Metaphysical Knowledge?

Nigga, do you not understand where we are in the cosmic cycle?

i'm not trad in traditional sense (huh), but i sincerely love the aesthetic. i'm a bit of a retrograde.
imo, the worst thing about modernity is globalisation civilised countries are going through right now, it feels like all specialty about different cultures and people is disappearing in favor of self-assimilated homogenous blob of 'civility'/normality/'wealth' if it's the right way to word it. any books or articles on this phenomena?

it was briefly mentioned in The Shallows but i want more detail

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>only guenonfag can possibly be discussing Traditionalism!
he's living rentfree in your head boyo!

absolutely decadent

How do Perennialists distinguish between true and false religions and between intrinsic orthodoxy and heterodoxy and true initiation from counter initiation?

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>The AntiChrist itself will be a mockery of human form itself
It's called 'Jew'. They are the antichrists.

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>So given that traditionalists reject evolution
Nah- I expect us to have an intuitive breeding system to ensure evolution is healthy.
Something akin to love.

>So given that traditionalists reject evolution
I wouldn't say thats universally true, only as to 'demythologize' life itself and reduce it to biological determinism and sever any metaphysical link it has to the Divine.

Hinduism
Taoism/Confucianism
Buddhism
Roman Catholicism
Eastern Orthodox
Sufi/Islam

Main ones usually mentioned by trads.

Pic related might interest you.

If you mean synthetic, like kantian synthetic apriori, kinda not probably.

Kantian metaphysics is metaphysics of cognition mainly (more or less), preconditions to cognition/sensory experience. He believed the traditional metaphysics of aristotle or the radical metaphysics of the rationalists to be out of bounds for human knowledge.

Guenon goes beyond the metaphysics of Aristotle whose focus was being as being, or ontology basically, guenon thought this was limited.

The rationalists were more in line with guenonian style metaphysics, vast and dealing with major questions of natural theology, ontology, mind/body, and freewill. Guenon respected liebniz somewhat.

Guenons metaphysics is advaita metaphysics, which is its whole own animal.

Trying to deal with all the metaphysics using the same terms is misguided, because they're doing different things.

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>Main ones usually mentioned by trads.
why those ones? why not mormonism, or jehovah witnesses? What if i wanted to join a obscure religion they never talked about, like druze, mandaeism or a unknown tribal religion? How do i know its 'traditional' at one point christianity, islam and buddhism was a relatively new religion.

It's psychological.
Without the initiation there's no promise, without promise there's no, weight to carry, you have no boulder. Having children is the most powerful initation, or having a personal teacher, or being a teacher, these are the most powerful initiatory acts. Without "initiation" you're alone, and lying to, or mistreating, ourselves is easy. Initiation brings potentiality and mere contemplation into actuality, it makes it Personal (the highest reality).

Coherence.

AFAIK, Guenon admired Aristotle's metaphysics, and thought Kant's metaphysics was misguided. Both need Vedanta.

It’s really not just those ones. For example, he only mentioned two branches of Christianity, but Guenon mentions the Church of the East (Nestorians) in a positive light on a number of places and he seems to have thought they played an important role in transmitting his initiatic knowledge between East and West (see map). He also hints in a footnote (Lord of the World) that they may have initiated Muhammad. I also see no reason that he would reject other groups like the Coptics, etc. If you are looking for a religion to join you should ask yourself what you are primarily after. Do you want an exoteric framework to give your life stability and such, or would you also require initiatic activity to move you along a spiritual route? In the latter case you should be aware that not all religions seem to be able to offer that today. I’m personally of Evola’s opinion that we should not entertain any extravagant expectations regarding spirituality in out day and age, and in a certain sense just living in a disciplined and dignified way is sufficient. see

>his initiatic knowledge
kek meant to just write initiatic knowledge

>Christian gnosis
Are you deliberately a heretic?

oops also forgot map

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gnosis = / = Gnosticism

>search images of Guenon
>all images are images of monky
Really makes you think....

>Given the great power of the rational intellect, one would easily understand that it is crafting the world as well as describing it. This is generally not the case. The Word is in the hands of both Tahuti and his Ape. Tradition has it that the Magus is followed by the Ape of Thoth, who ensures that all his words will be misunderstood. The Word, once the pure expression of a Cosmic Mystery, has now become trapped in a thicket of its own ramifications and reifications. Like all contingent phenomena, it is ultimately impermanent and unsatisfactory.

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Only if Origen is a heretic

yes?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiognosis

>what is a debt-collector
Try coming after US's debt, kek

>Cardiognosis
Sounds like some kind of new age fitness thing lol

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Yeah, that's right.
He respected Aristotle and the Scolastics (Christian Aristotelian), as well as Leibniz to some degree, but felt all were limited.

Guenonian Taoism

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You should replace the 6th panel with 'Sufism and Taoism' by Toshihiko Izutsu, Nasr wrote very high praises of it and I've seen some of the other trads cite it as well

I dont know if that fits the criteria.
Trads reference a lot of people, doesnt really make them expositors of Guenonian Metaphysics.

Not saying he isnt worthwhile, of course.

Can you show me anywhere Izutsu references Guenon as a major influence?
Or where trad publishers have released his books?

Seems related enough, World Wisdom and Sophia Perennis reference him.

Thanks for the input.

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Guenonian Hermeticism

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Is taoism something that can be practised "religiously"? I always assumed it was like Stoicism.

sure, they have lots of rituals and deities and stuff

Taoism all about semen retention and achieving immortality.

It is a harsh religion in a sense that if the practitioner fails to achieve immortality during his lifetime he is considered a failure

Taoist Catalogue

Introductions and Traditionalist Literature on Taoism
>An Illustrated Introduction to Taoism - Jean C. Cooper
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=B2D45AE1F48624907CCB12C6069FEF73
>The Great Triad - Rene Guenon
archive.org/stream/reneguenon/1946 - The Great Triad#page/n1/mode/2up
>Taoism: The Magic, The Mysticism - Julius Evola
juliusevola.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/19-taoism-the-magic-the-mysticism.pdf
>Light from the East - Harry Oldmeadow
b-ok.cc/book/1131614/3c7fb7

Core Taoist Texts
Tao Te Ching
>Ellen Chen's translation
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=B552DD27325BCC8AD4F28B099428C6E3
>James Legge translation
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=2ED74322D619FDBBC2BC5E50304C142E
Stephen Mitchell's translation
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=8557254FDC06FD26B633DE830EBA7898
>Zhuangzhi - Burton Watson's translation
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=1B8F2CB9018D7FFAE1079BB6FBB0A203
>Lie-tzu - A. C. Graham's translation
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=B8989F1DE09A14247714D8263D397025

I Ching
>Richard Wilhelm's translation
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=AB1B320B884E83B951E57FF49D824621
>John Blofeld's translation
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=0D8C08D9B0938CEA4E274169A0D6D510
>Alfred Huang's translation
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=E23A92399CD582F4F72BE77079E5F228
>James Legge's translation
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=F72CBF56820F1BCBC3D7DE1E26FA519C

Neidan (Inner Alchemy)
>Chinese Alchemy - Jean C. Cooper
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=4E213AFDF38D028CA4A528DDCA823314
>Foundations of Internal Alchemy: The Taoist Practice of Neidan - Fabrizio Pregadio
b-ok.cc/book/3679648/673328
>Awakening to Reality: The "Regulated Verses" of the Wuzhen Pian - Fabrizio Pregadio
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=DD75EE3B3F226640E7DF26E9242B0A81
>The Way of the Golden Elixir: An Introduction to Taoist Alchemy - Fabrizio Pregadio
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=6E2693B039069F5E93A10100A9F0091B

Secret of the Golden Flower (strongly recommend you read both translations)
>Richard Wilhelm's translation
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=1C0D0E0E30142FD13EDCF9E952D5F41F
>Thomas Cleary's translation
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=0E9D8FEF1432BC971286CCDD75922AA4

Other Texts
>Original Tao: Inner Training (Nei-yeh) and the Foundations of Taoist Mysticism
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=D1081A4AB24BF1A34D97D7E424C93B3A

>Evola
>Guenonian

Do you feel intelligent?

Cool story bro

Eliade isnt really either, but reading Evola's and Eliade's take on alchemy and hermeticism will give you a much more guenonian take on the subjects than anyone else.

Plus, theres just not a lot of trad material on hermeticism and alchemy despite guenons respect for it. Most of modern hermeticism is rooted in reinessance humanism which the trads hated.

I'm thinking about using a randomiser to pick a religion. I don't have any particular leaning towards any religion but like parts of the practices and aesthetics of many.

I don't know. All I know is, I don't try to reduce Traditionalism to dogmatism.

consult the i ching or the tarot, if you’re gonna go down that route

Neither do I.
Guenon used a specific and self-created vocabulary to describe advaita metaphysics and finds similarities in other traditional metaphysics.

For instance, he denotes the true self as "personality" while the limited temporal self as "individuality." These were terms that could be reversed, but he coined them with this meaning so he could deal with the subjects.

So guenonian means someone who uses the same vocabulary, metaphysics, and philosophy of religion that guenon does.

If you think its indubitably traditional to all religions, just look into the hostility that actual traditionalists in each religion have had towards guenonian traditionalists.

he’s not the only person that uses the term personality in that way. i’ve seen that usage in bhagavad gita translations (“the supreme personality of the godhead”)

There is a difference to be drawn between religious and philosophical Daoism.

I'm sure you can find precedents for a lot of his terms, but if you read the trads like Martin Lings, they come back again and again to the idea that Guenon crafted a vocabulary for discussing trad metaphysics. It's why its easy to peg someone as a guenonian rather than just a traditionalist of that specific religion so easily.

I don't know why its such a surprise to everyone that guenons vocabulary and philosophy of religion is pretty specific and easy it pick out when it's being used.

It doesnt mean that what hes saying isnt true, his signifiers may be unique, doesn't mean the signified is unique. Someone who comes to trad ideas through guenon or his descendants is going to speak about these things with a seperate vocabulary than someone who discovered the ideas elsewhere.

"Guenonian" is not a new term. Evola, Borella, Sedgwick, all use it.

It's also why picking out the Eranos group new age types is easy. They have some ideological overlap with trads, through eliade especially, but they use a different vocabulary for similar ideas.

damn lol im justing making a point about that one term, you don’t need to extrapolate it to a whole social critique

Oh okay, I thought you were the same user saying I was dogmatizing traditionalism but calling it Guenonian.

nah im fine with the term guenonian

Alright, so Guenon says you can't self-initiate. Fair enough. Where do I go to get initiated? What groups/traditions are valid according to Guenon?

Bump. I would be especially interested for a valid Initiatic Path within Roman Catholicism.

You'd have to join a monasteries, or at least a Third Order. But I was of the impression that Guenon didn't see Christianity as an initiatic path (anymore?) You could always be a music though...

> You could always be a music though...

You could always be a *mystic though...

Given our decadent state in the Kali Yuga, it's difficult to find legitimate intitiation. The idea you have to look for, is this particular intitiaion have a chain back to the originators of said religion Muhammad, Christ, Buddha, etc. And does it still contain the true traditional metaphysics?

As to catholicism, Guenon thought the tradition had been lost at the end of the 12th century. Catholic Guenonians since then have disagreed. Pic related here is some of their books:
Jean Hani
Jean Borella
Wolfgang Smith

I recommend Borella's Christ: Original Mystery for a good critique of Guenons view of Catholicism and a defense of its legitimacy. It's a difficult book however.

Guenon personally recommended islam/sufism to those who asked him, but wanted to see a revitalization of Catholicism in the West based on the preserved trad metaphysics of the hindus.

It really depends on what's available in your area:
Buddhism
Hinduism
Roman Catholicism
Orthodox Catholicism
Islam

But it's up to you to determine whether it's a legitimate chain of initiation to the source.

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What about the Masons? My impression is that he was at least weakly favorable to them at the beginning of his life, more unfavorable at the end. But I haven't read enough...

From what I've heard, he thought of it as supplementary to a christian initiation. Plus, it seems out of touch with what he believes. Equality, democracy, etc.

I know current trads like Charles Upton consider it radically counter-intiatory and verboten.

If you want to see the kind of Catholicism guenon endorsed:
Charlemagne to the end of the 12th century.
Also, he respected the scholastics and their metaphysics, which is basically christian aristotelianism.

Isn't perennialism just universalism with another name? I don't see how they're that different.

it depends on what level you identify the universal. a lot of the religious universalist movements find the universal aspects of religion in vague, ethical, sentimental notions like "love" or "peace" or whatever. Guenon's universalism is strictly metaphysical. in every other respect the faiths differ from one another and are not universal.

>From what I've heard, he thought of it as supplementary to a christian initiation. Plus, it seems out of touch with what he believes. Equality, democracy, etc.

Liberty-Equality-Fraternity isn't part of all lodges, it depends a lot on jurisdiction. Guenon was a member of Memphis-Misraim, which is a weird obedience. Anyway, that's why I'm interested if anyone's read what he wrote about it.

>I know current trads like Charles Upton consider it radically counter-intiatory and verboten

Guy seems like a bit of a fruit loops. Although "What Poets Used to Know" sounds like an interesting book.

The way these words are used, and the way you're using them, could mean anything.

Guenonian Traditionalism: universal in the sense of universally true metaphysical principles.

Perennialism: can mean anything from new age syncretism, to reinessance humanistic hermeticism, to traditionalism.

Traditionalism is perennial in the sense of one underlying religious reality to all true religions. It differs from most new age perennialists that not everyone has access to it, it requires devotion to one religion against syncretism, and it is dissipating rather than continually rejuvenating itself. Meaning the legitimate chains are dying out in the kali yuga.

Guenon Trads are almost closer to prisca theologia (ancient theology given long ago that is decaying now) but a perennial in that they see Buddha, Muhammed, Christ, as bringing that same truth again.

If you could find a masonic lodge that was traditionalist in the metaphysical sense, it would by definition be legitimate to guenon.

I can see the criticism of Upton, but most current trads dont recommend Masonry either. Most dont even recommend Christianity. Most trads seem to be Sufis actually.

Evola never joined a tradition.

>Evola never joined a tradition.
Not an exoteric one, but he was involved with Pythagorean and alchemical lineages.

I just did one of those Iching online things and got 15 changing to 62 I'm not sure how the changing thing works but one of the translation screams Catholic to me. I might have to download a copy of i ching to read up on it properly.

DUKE OF CHOU'S EXPLANATION OF THE LINES
One, whose action would be in every way advantageous, stirs up his humility the more: but in doing so he does not act contrary to the proper rule.
UPPER TRIGRAM: K'un
CONCEPT: Docility, Submissive, Earth
QUALITIES: Passive, Earth, Female, Receptive, Weak, Responsive, Yielding, Devoted, Flexible, Soft, Calm, Wife, Patient, Moderate, Empty, Cowardly, Maternal, Docile, Capaciousness, Submissiveness, Subordination, Compliant, Caldron, Obscure, Sustaining Power
FAMILY: Mother
PART OF THE BODY: Stomach
SEASON: Late Summer, Early Autumn

LOWER TRIGRAM: Kên
CONCEPT: Arresting, Immovable, Mountain
QUALITIES: Quiet, Slow, Indecisive, Tough, Secretive, Contradictory, Independent, Hard, Mountain, Obstinate, Perverse, Stubborn, Immovable, Standstill, Resting, Stopping
FAMILY: Youngest Son
PART OF THE BODY: Hand
SEASON: Late Winter, Early Spring

They can just stop giving any loans to the USA, effectively cripling the economy until they are ready to make concesions to pay. Thats how it worked until now, no one invaded countries to get them to pay their debts.

This website has some of the traditional commentary on each of the hexagrams
jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/ch1.htm

I have never seen criticism of Guenon published or said on video etc by any Hindus but I have for Catholics and Muslims

>>Evola never joined a tradition.
>Not an exoteric one, but he was involved with Pythagorean and alchemical lineages.
No he wasn't. He dabbled in Pythagoreanism and alchemy. There were no"lineages".

Sure, but it would be fairly easy to determine whether someone had come to advaita through guenon or some other source. Plus, I doubt advaitic organizations recommend guenon as a direct repository of their tradition. There are elements unique to guenon, even if it's just vocabulary.

My point is, Guenon has a specific vocabulary and philosophy of religion that is easy to spot. It has a good deal of legitimate and intuitive overlap with traditional religions, but to ignore that the whole trad cadre (schuon, borella, nasr, ect.) are guenonian is the real dogmatism, I would say.

What translation are you using? Mine doesn't have family, part of the body, etc.

Yeah, there were. He was instructed in alchemy through a Catholic monk who belonged to such a lineage (Fraternity of Myriam or something like that). And he belonged to a Pythagorean lineage who operated out of a tower on the coast of Italy

He also had an uncle who worked for Nintendo.

I used this site with the Legge translation

onlineclarity.co.uk/reading/free-online-i-ching/

Weird, I've never seen those in a text. I've used Wilhelm and Lynn.

WHAT THE FUCK
IS
AN INITIATION?!
Like in concrete terms, what does it mean? Do I have to be a glorious warrior in war and transcend my humanity? Does 20 years of social isolation and excessive contemplation on metaphysics to the point of mental illness, count as an initiation ritual?

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Can you just say what I actually need to do.

No, Guenon has an essay in his book Perspectives on Initiation critiquing the idea that some people have that going through suffering in life constitutes an initiatic ordeal. He doesn’t place any special value on such experiences, from a spiritual point of view, at least when such experience occur in a secular context. An initiation is a very precise ritual meant to confer a spiritual influence and forge a link between oneself and a chain of traditional wisdom teacher-student relationships stretching back to time immemorial. I’m the user who asked the question you linked, by the way, so don’t expect me to have an answer as to why that is absolutely necessary because I don’t know.

I'm 30 pages in to Perspectives on Initiation and I can confidently say neither of your examples would count. You can't do it to yourself.

An example would be baptism in the early church. After a long period of instruction, you are taken to the catacombs under cover of darkness, and there, by torchlight, the lineal successor to the Master performs the ritual on you.

As a matter of fact, I dont know. That's why I'm studying guenon.
I would assume the actual initiatic rite is just an exoteric event representing the esoteric initiation.

In practical terms, traditionalists recommend you join a legitimate religion with an esoteric dimension and practice it as completely as you are able. There are catholic initiations for instance, I would assume theres parallels in other religions, but they aren't going to be one to one similar.

You want to be a traditionalists? Read guenon, join a traditional religion, practice whatever rites are required by that religion above all else, try to live in accordance with God.

That's it mainly.

but that just seems kind of gay and doesn't seem like something that would evoke a spiritual experience in a modern mind. I'm reading Evola and he seems to suggest that overcoming one's humanity would lead to spiritual transcendece. In metaphysics of war he says that this could be done via physical warfare.

I have a hard time believing any Christian sects have kept legitimate tradition alive. Unless you count the tradition of molesting little boys

>but that just seems kind of gay and doesn't seem like something that would evoke a spiritual experience in a modern mind.

Guenon would say that's the modern's fault/loss.

>I'm reading Evola and he seems to suggest that overcoming one's humanity would lead to spiritual transcendece. In metaphysics of war he says that this could be done via physical warfare.

Evola does not insist you can't initiate yourself. Sorry, I thought you were asking about Guenon.

They're all Arabs

Yeah from what I've read and observed irl, I believe modern minds are entirely disconnected from the traditionalist view on life.
Yeah I was asking about Guenon but I brought up Evola because he's the only traditionalist I've read yet.

For Guenon? Join Sufism is the easiest route. Buddhism or a Hindu guru cult might also work. Some traditionalists think RC or Orthodox Christianity. Guenon thought Freemasonry when he was younger. But those are basically your options. You have to join one to get initiated.

Traditionalist Masonic Lodge (in France):
counter-currents.com/2012/11/freemasons-against-the-modern-world/

Guenonians vs. Evolians

Evola believed there are opportunities for initiation in the modern world and expounds on this in Ride the Tiger.

Like what?

I think it must be their own thing seperate from the standard i ching.
I found this on Wiki
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagua#Relation_to_other_principles

Wish that book was translated.

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this chart has been rightfully critiqued so many times people really ought to stop posting it. it’s getting really tiring. i think ill just make a new chart some time this week so people stop posting this one. it won’t be as pretty, but it will get the job done

Give me six books in reading order and I'll make a quick one.
Start with bow and club right?

Preferably Recognitions, but BatC is fine too, though it's slightly more focused towards metaphysics. It's probably better to make a flowchart for Evola since he wrote books on many topics, not just metaphysics and critiques of modernity, unlike Guenon.

K. So, “tier 1” would be his essay collections like Metaphysics of War, BatC, Recognitions, etc. The reader can choose one or two or more of those to start before moving on to tier two which would be theoretical works. Tier two would be Intro to Magic, especially volume one, and RAtMW. Then Tier 3 is expository works, which is Metaphysics of Sex, Mystery of the Grail, Doctrine of Awakening, Yoga of Power, Hermetic Tradition. I specifically mention them in that order because that is *approximately* their order from least accessible to most accessible. again, the reader can choose on or two of these before moving on to tier four which is his application to politics. Tier 4: Men Among the Ruins, his book on fascism, etc. I put these all the way at tier 4 not because they ate especially difficult, they aren’t, but because I think theory should come before application. Then tier five would be Ride the Tiger, which is a sort of “speculative” work (speculating on the form traditionalism will take in the future, further into the Kali Yuga), and path of Cinnabar as a summation and overview of all his work. Lastly, a bonus section for works like Heathen Imperialism that he disowned, more or less, and Meditations on the Peaks because it’s nice but not that important to read imo. It’s also important to mention that it is HIGHLY recommended to start with Guenon (at least crisis of the modern world and reign of quantity), but not absolutely necessary.

I would wait until other posters have given input on this post before making the chart, because they might offer legitimate corrections and criticisms of my recommendations

I'd love to see it, definitely post it when you're done.

Much appreciated

Evola's books published by Arktos are shit-tier.

Here is your reading order:
1.) Mystery of the Grail.
2.) Doctrine of Awakening.
3.) Revolt Against the Modern World.
4.) Men among the Ruins.
5.) Ride the Tiger.

After that read whatever you want that is published by Inner Traditions. Just a warning though. Here are his shit-tier books currently in circulation in English:

1.) East and West.
2.) Meditations on the Peaks.
3.) All (or most of) the Arktos books (including Recognitions and Bow and the Club).
4.) Metaphysics of War (imo, this is the worst book of his in cycle just due to sheer repetition).
5.) Something or other about right-wing youth.
6.) Something of other about traditional living.

Most of these books can be replaced by just reading essays of his available online. I want to stress that these books aren't usually bad because of Evola, but because of dilettantish, amateurish and incompetent editors/publishing houses. You COULD get something out of them by reading them if you're willing to tolerate a mass of editorial stupidity.

To elaborate, I say they're shit-tier because the editions are so fucking lazy and poorly done. The translations are often meh. The introductions are worthless (the Bow and Club introduction is THE most pretentious, garbage and unworthy introduction to any book that I've ever read). And also they're Evola's worst works (usually all over the place, with no coherent themes, just collections of disparate essays that he wrote throughout his life more or less lazily depending on the essay, hyper repetitive). Inner Traditions has his best works in publication with excellent translations, introductions, etc (so long as we ignore Meditations on the Peaks, which subpar compared to their other books). I recommend sticking to the Inner Traditions books unless 1.) you want to read subpar editions and give Richard Spencer money (via Arktos) that he can use to go to an LGTBQ+ festival with his fed gf or 2.) really love Evola so much that you're willing to read lesser quality books by trash editors.

The only exceptions to this rule might be the books Arktos published by Evola on fascism/nazism, which are both short enough that Arktos couldn't have possibly messed them up and both of which had a solid translator behind them.

Good luck, user. Screenshot this and spread. We must stop propaganda about Evola's oeuvre as it currently exists in English, which shows no discrimination or culture (just mindless "buy it all but in this order"). STOP SUPPORTING SHIT PUBLISHING HOUSES, STOP BUYING GARBAGE EDITIONS; FORCE EDITORS TO STEP IT UP AND STOP BEING LAZY CUNTS. Arktos will charge you 20-25$ for a shit-tier collection of poorly translated essays (that can be found online) making up very few pages of not even good quality and suckers will buy it for trad cred. We must end this practice of publishers taking advantage of its own audience. How anyone else hasn't called Arktos out for this is beyond me.

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>read the worst, most boring and poorly done works first

garbage, ignore this guy, totally plebeian mind there lmao

Also to add to this read his book on Hermeticism LAST or close to last. That is his hardest book. And read Revolt Against the Modern World sooner rather than later. One could argue it's his most important book, one of his only truly complete books (along with his books on Buddhism, Tantrism and maybe one or two others) and also the one that holds the key to the rest of his works. Without it, a lot of his stuff is incomprehensible (hence, his constant need to cite this book throughout his oeuvre).

I am skeptical of what this user says about Arktos books. It sounds like he has sour grapes against the publisher for some reason, and East and West was published by Counter-Currents. I agree with this user that Hermetic Tradition is "has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?" levels of hard, but I would put the Introduction to Magic volumes right before Hermetic Tradition when treading down the metaphysics path, since those books are also very dense.

This is obviously beyond me, someone with more personal Evola experience will have to do the new chart.

I mean, I already offered to make one, but the other poster had some really vehement objections to my recommendations for a chart. He may just be a little wound up, but I don’t feel particularly inclined to make a chart before I get more input from other posters. So, I’ll put that on hold for the moment. Feel free to do it yourself if you like.

Not a bad idea, you could also make it and see if people like your suggestions enough to repost it in future trad threads. You would probably get more critiques that way anyways.

Either way, I'm still working on Guenon anyways.

that sun looks absolutely pished

There are 4 genders

You'll forgetting Fray Luis de León and Baltasar Gracián

bump

Both cited anons are me. I've only read the Evola books that Arktos has published and clearly was disappointed for the reasons listed above. That said, I can't vouch for their other books and no doubt some may be of good quality. And I know East and West was published by Counter-Currents. It suffered from the same problems as the Arktos books. Metaphysics of War also came from a different publisher if I remember correctly and it also had the same problems. Of all the publishers that have put out Evola books, only Inner Traditions has impressed me. The rest seem to just want to put out poor quality and yet over-priced books to make a fair buck. I wouldn't complain about the Arktos books if they were around 10-12$, which is what they're worth. But all their books are above 20$ last time I checked and for that much money, the editions should be much, much better. And I agree with your thoughts on Intro. to Magic. It was quite dense as you mentioned and long. I haven't read the second volume which came out recently but I imagine it's similar.

To illustrate what I mean further in this post , a hardcover copy of Revolt Against the Modern World (Inner Traditions) right now is 24$ on Amazon. This is an excellently put together book, the editors did everything basically perfectly and included a great introductions. The book is close to 400 pages. This is a fair publisher! This is justly priced and well done.

To compare to Arktos, Notes on the Third Reich right now is 17$ for a paperback and 31$ for a hardcover!! The book is only 96 PAGES LONG. For less than a hundred pages, you should be paying less than 10$ without a doubt (7-8$ a fair price?). But 31$ for a hardback? And who makes a hardback for a book of 96 pages?! This is ridiculous. This is unjust pricing. Arktos is crooked without a doubt. Just trying to make as much a buck as possible off people. Arktos is the griftright of publishers right now.

So it's the money that's the issue? Oy veyyyy, all dat hard earned cash. Listen man, I make minimum wage and I wouldn't even bat an eyelash at those prices. I'm sorry to say this, but you're a cheapskate. You're also taking too much for granted, as though getting obscure Italian texts translated and published in the English speaking world is no big deal. They should give us dem nice shiny editions too!! Dose bastids! Well, why don't you do it? Translate some of Evola's unpublished texts and put them out in beautifully adorned hardcovers, with footnotes, insightful introductory essays, and put in an epilogue too while you're at it. It's obviously a simple task, and the only reason Arktos has failed in dis is cause dey are antisemitic bastids. Can you believe da nerve a dose goys?

Apparently Saint Augustine had some universalist views.

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cringe lmao not even worth a response

>What's the justification for Guenon's insistence that you NEEEEED an initiation
I don't know his but ritual, and community, is important. That's something almost all religions agree on.

I'm a cheapskate because I purchased several Arktos books and have declared all (or most of) them as not worth their price and I'm trying to prevent other anons from wasting their money? And somehow that makes me akin to a Jew whereas those overcharging for books are not Jew-like (nice reversal of values there, buddy, can't imagine how much you skewer things to fit your silly worldview)?I don't think I'm asking for much: the price of a book should match its quality. If you disagree and think it's okay to price a book at double its value, then I think you're the long-nose, not me.

The great irony is that many of the books that Arktos has published by Evola have arguments against anti-semiticism. I think you need to read them more carefully. Maybe your favorite "based and redpilled" publisher is just trying to get some extra coin out of ya. But oh well, why should I care? Have fun paying for Nina Kouprianova's next dildo! I'm sure that fed Spencer will be grateful as it'll free up some money for him to go travel and rainbowflag-pose in obscure places around the US.

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Very cool, thanks!

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I've seen variations of that image before, and by the way, does anyone know the significance of Christ having a cross behind his head while the Father has an upward pointing triangle?

Traditionalism is fake supersessionism and has been magesterially condemned. Catholics ITT are poasting in a heretic thread.

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the cross is his death for our sins, the triangle is the trinity

I really, strongly recommend everyone ITT read Evola's book on Buddhism. It is really good.

It's pretty good, only problem is it mainly focuses on Theravada Buddhism, and Mahayana is way more interesting

>my! them catholics got zeal

lmao protties/atheists are so weak and pathetic

Just ignore it. Don’t get baited.

>Supersessionism is not the name of any official Roman Catholic doctrine and the word appears in no Church documents, but official Catholic teaching has reflected varying levels supersessionist thought throughout its history, especially prior to the mid-twentieth century. Supersessionist theology is extensive in Catholic liturgy and literature.

Are you saying Catholicism is not defacto supersessionist?

No. I’m saying traditionalism is false supersessionism.

Prove it.

Ah, fair enough.
Yeah, the traditionalists of the different sects as well as academia have many issues with guenonian traditionalism.

Most of us here know this, you're not really enlightening us. Guenon is a very specific philosophy of religion that some agree with, others dont.

There are several guenonian catholics that seek to use guenons thought to examine catholic doctrine, in the same way aristotle was used by the scholastics.

Extreme experiences I imagine. Like war, as he explains in detail in Metaphysics of War. Evola himself was a veteran of WW1. During WW2 he wasnt allowed to serve, but he would walk outside during air raids, the absolute madman, and test his fate. Well fate just so had it that she decided to put m'incel in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. I imagine it had deep spiritual meaning for him though, and that's the kind of shit you'll have to get into if you wanna be initiated by yourself, I imagine.

.
Traditionalism does not view any religion in a way that would be accepted by their own sincere adherents. It’s pwned end to end by modernism, just like contemporary western atheists are pwned by monotheism.

The much vaunted "sincerity" of religious believers is mere sentimentality, and has no bearing on metaphysical considerations. At this stage in world history, it is fair to assume that the vast majority of human beings are steeped in ignorance and incapable of comprehending the actual depth concealed under the surface teachings of their religion. There is no reason to put much stock in what "sincere believers" think. This may sound arrogant, but it is unfortunately true.

Sounds Masonic and gay. You guys are just right wing Unitarian Universalists.

see regarding the homonymity of the term "universal"

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In reality it's the actual traditional views and way of life.
In this thread it means relativist universalist metaphysicalism which is in no way traditionalist and which real traditionalists that lived by that way of life have always scorned. They either stuck by their religion and integrated other views or switched it entirely, not mucking about with "all religious points of view have some truth to them" nonsense while dubbing it traditional.

Your incapacity to understand what traditionalist thinkers associated with the thought of Guenon actually believe is not an argument

Yet it retains the fundamental pillar of modernism: the denial that any particular religious claims are true.
You should check out Augusto Del Noce. He is a firm and able critic of modern philosophical thought and a champion of classical metaphysics, but avoids the relativism trap.

just because YOU can't explain what it means that doesn't mean you're right. You certainly need to read or at least research the views of Guenon before commenting. Perennialism/Traditionalism

>right wing Unitarian Universalists
Ha, this is funny. Not completely out of line. Another one I heard was trads are right wing new agers.
Godwin and Quinn agreed somewhat.

I like guenon.

So, your only complaints are the physical qualities of the books, the number of pages, and the price? You're arguing from a purely materialist and consumerist perspective, and Evola would laugh at you for making such a superficial critique against his work.

Though I consider that poster extremely childish and spoiled, I will say that the artwork on the Arktos covers is extremely tacky. Other than that, I’m definitely not gonna complain that the works of an obscure Italian esotericist are being translated into English.

>Writing in the seventh century, Saint Maximos the Confessor explained that “the followers and servants of Christ were initiated directly by him into the gnosis of existent things, they in turn imparting this knowledge to those who came after them”,1 and a Greek Orthodox bishop has recently testified to meeting one of the latest links in this chain on the Holy Mountain of Athos, whom he describes as appearing to his wondering eyes “like lightning in the night” and as having “everything that God has”.

n-no you can’t say that! gnosis is a bad word!

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Gnosis just means knowledge. This appears to be a tendentious translation. Knowledge is not Gnosticism just as science is not scientism.

How many of you have read Gustav Meyrink? He was a huge influence on Julius Evola

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I know, I was poking fun at the knee jerk reaction online Christians sometimes have at the word “gnosis”

So, while strictly speaking I do accept the metaphysics of non-dualism and believe it is fundamentally correct, I also have to acknowledge that there is a huge difference between merely believing in it and actually attaining a non-dual spiritual realization. The problem is that for one who merely believes in non-dualism there is a tendency to fall into a passive state of behavior, because of the implications of the doctrine. So I would like to read some more literature on dualism. Even C.S. Lewis held a high opinion of dualism, and he basically said that of all the incorrect doctrines it was the most respectable because it encouraged masculine virtues and an active struggle against evil. Anyway, can anyone recommend some literature on dualism for me to study?

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You'll want to read Madhva. Not sure how masculine dvaita is though - it's the official philosophy of the Hare Krishnas.

>Hare Krishnas
Ew, no thanks. There are many varieties of dualism, no doubt. I’ll pass on that one.

Read the Zend-Avestas for dualism.

ok so i read some Guenon and enjoyed it so i thought i would buy some Evola. I was going to follow the reading order of the famous chart but it seems like people have issues with it. With that said what order would u guys rec i read the books in pic related. If i HAVE to buy another book or 2 first i guess I could but I'd prefer to not purchase another book until i read all these.

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How long are they? Should I read an abridgment? Any translation you can recommend?

Metaphysics of War and Meditations on the peaks are the most accessible in that pile. Hermetic Tradition is the least accessible and most difficult so read it last.

That's wrong, the Vedanta school that the Hare Krishnas identify themselves with is Achintya Bheda Abheda (inconceivable oneness and difference)

see

What is the trad consensus on Sedgwick's Against the Modern World? I'm reading it now and it seems to me like it is rather biased towards Islamic/Sufi Traditionalism, to the neglect of the Catholic/Christian strain almost entirely.

Also, is pic related a good intro to Guénon? I have East and West as well but this seemed like a good overview.

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bump

I would strongly recommend starting instead with Intro to Hindu Doctrines (which is really an intro to Guenon's ideas and terminology, plus some stuff about Hinduism in the latter third of the book)