Antinatalism thread

If life is so meaningless why do you spend time trying to convince others it's meaningless instead of killing yourself?

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We must imagine the fucker happy

If it weren't it would be a refutation of anti-natalism

Life is Suffering

Life has been defined as suffering by so many different individuals during the history of mankind, from the Veda and Buddha to philosophers like Arthur Schopenhauer, E.M. Cioran, Ulrich Horstmann, David Benatar and countless others, that I don't even know where to start. First of all, every form of life that we know is in itself just a tiny, insignificant individual in a universe of infinite space and time, bound to a body, forced to fulfill desires and urges for a short time, just to keep the need-machine running and fall back to other forms of desire. Furthermore the biggest problem of sentient life in general is the ability to feel pain in all forms and variations from mild mental pain to extreme physical pain and mutilation. "Happiness" can pretty much be defined simply as a state where all the negative aspects, like pain, hunger and desire are absent, a state which usually leads to bordedom (another form of suffering) very fast, so the state that seemed to be the goal and meaning of life turns then out to be a state that can only be maintained a very short time before it gets replaced by boredom which makes new needs attractive or, even if boredom doesn't come up, gets replaced by new needs anyway. All this means that life is an eternal hunt for the ideal state of the individual, which, as soon as reached, turns out to be an illusion or at least a very short period of fulfillment.

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what bothers me more than the conscious decision of intelligent, compassionate individuals to not reproduce, is the extension of that viewpoint into an ideology, which attempts to proselytize and bring people over to its side.
there's an implicit hypocrisy in the decision to propagate a belief system which would extinguish the human race if 100% of the human race followed it religiously.
the goal of spreading this self-extinguishing meme is still a goal. the decision to work towards it gestures implicitly towards a value structure, however perverse.
it's possible to be a "bad anti-natalist" if you fall in love with someone who still wants kids, and you'd be an even worse one if you chose to go ahead with it, despite your supposedly sincere viewpoint.
the fact that one can succeed or fail at anti-natalism itself shows that it's not nearly as nihilistic as people think.

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>I dont like life so you shouldnt either

Do you like suffering?

...

how could antinatalism be nihilistic if it is making moral judgments like „procreations is wrong“?

nihilism is saying nothing matters, morality doesn't exist, there is no right or wrong, have kids or don't, it doesn't matter.

Proof that suffering is bad?

judging from OP's post, could have fooled me
the words "unimportant," "futility," and "meaninglessness" stuck out to me as far more nihilistic than if only "suffering" had been mentioned.

If you aren't a antinatalist 10 years into the Great Recession I worry about your sanity.

>materialists cut themselves from the gene pool

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To pretend you have figured out the equation for the net value of life, whether positive, or negative, is the stuff of biblical narcissism. The best refutation for antinatalism is simply to take the people who claim they enjoy life for their word.

I accept it.

That says nothing about the descendants of these supposedly, "happy" people, and that's what antinatalism is concerned with.

So kys and stop shitting the board with your emofag threads you miserable fuck.

I suppose it's their duty to challenge the notion of, "tough shit"

I haven't seen a single good argument against antinatalism, but i also haven't seen a single good argument from antinatalists about the "kill yourself then". I'd say that antinatalism supports murder and the immediate extinction of the human race, and that it's obvious that it does so. What makes antinatalists pathetic, is that instead of embracing their hypocrisies, they hide between retardation such as "if you were on a theather, wouldn't you watch it till the end to avoid unpoliteness?" to that i say, no, you fucking faggot.

Anyone interested in actually improving the world for future generations and not simply killing themselves inevitably ends up in Uncle Ted's camp. Technology has caused the devaluation of humanity, which leads to these disgusting thoughts

Do you deny that there are minimal material requirements to remain attached to your body? Because they will take that from you before the end, or at least as much of it as possible.

Absolutely there are bare minimums. But to think these aren't easily secured is an uncreative retard. Live by a river and eat trash if necessary

Suicide is always an option. Some people enjoy life though, and that makes it worth living. You could probably learn how to enjoy life too.

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You will return to chaos when you die, why fret about suffering and death which awaits all of us? Enjoy the moment my friend, be in the present and stop thinking, you never know when it's gonna be your last!

not an argument
except the you doesnt exist yet, you are creating a you with the potential to suffer

What chaos you're talking about? You've been dead for billions of years before this miniscule existence and it was all fine. There is unironic serene peace in not existing.

But not the potential to enjoy
Proof?

>except the you doesnt exist yet, you are creating a you with the potential to suffer
Which is based on the premise that no one to experience anything > someone experiencing something, but they smuggle in "suffering" to replace "something", while the only justification for this is the assumption that the net value of life is always negative. Simply does not follow and the base premise is not self-evident.

The great beyond, chaos, dao, whatever you wanna call it. Doesn't matter what you call it anyway, the point is you only get one life to live and savior both suffering and bliss, if you're a moron you'll choose to set high standards for yourself and spend most of it struggling and being miserable instead of just living naturally.

>if you're a moron you'll choose to set high standards for yourself and spend most of it struggling and being miserable instead of just living naturally.
Some people have literal chemical inbalances which prevents them from enjoying anything. That fact alone makes existence laughably absurd, and suicide, the answer.

That's just your opinion man, don't confuse it for something that's true.

So they should kill themselves and not preach their anti-human doctrine to everyone else

Then our only disagreement is my lack of courage to live as a homeless vagabond. Fair enough.

Exactly. I've been extremely close multiple times to this level of living and still wouldn't want to kill myself. Life is simply too interesting once you weaken the ego

It's a medical condition, retard.
That has nothing to do with antinatalism. Antinatalism is about ethics.

They have no ethical foundation to stand on

If being is suffering, is non-being bliss?

I like life, and life is suffering, therefore I must like suffering.

So is being a literal paraplegic but I hiked up a mountain with one. Dude enjoys it so he does it. You're just being a big fat pussy lol

I was fine not existing a couple of decades ago. Wouldn't call it bliss, but none of the pleasures of life can compare to that (and i've had some really good moments here).

>Dude enjoys it so he does it
Kek, 6/10 for making me reply.

Being is both suffering and bliss, non-being is non-being.

Non-being isn't anything.
By definition it can't be bliss.

not experiencing anything/not existing to experience something > experiencing something is antinatalism in a nutshell.

> but i also haven't seen a single good argument from antinatalists about the "kill yourself then".
I can't really speak for them, but I think it has to do with hope (Other than our natural instinct to survive). They hope they're wrong, so they keep holding on. If someone truly 100% believed it, there would indeed be no reason not to end it, which some may have. Just my low iq take on it.

The fact some apstract individuals chemicals in the head are messed doesn't invalidate life. The fact you think it does, or that one can reduce life to just that, a play of chemicals gives me a feeling you're a pussy, reasons for you being this way beyond my understanding of course.

Not the only reason. They could invoke that their suicide might inflict more suffering on their loved ones, or might have unforeseen negative consequences on the living as a whole, etc etc.

so basically, "i'm a pussy lol"

Yep. That's literally their whole position.
>I'm Ill-equipped for life therefore my children will be too, as well as all future potential children

Not so much. If your experience is a continuous negative, or a net negative, not killing yourself for the sake of others is pretty brave. It's more of a logical error. They cannot prove that the domain of experience is a net negative, but say that not existing, therefore not experiencing beats experiencing. They don't want to throw dice on other beings' existence. That's where the pussy part kicks in.

It's fucking dumb lol. Like "oh I read basic nihilism and I think that we shouldn't have kids but also shouldn't kill ourselfs because we don't have a spine"

Would the entire human race opting out of breeding not increase suffering during the final decades of human existence? With nobody to care for the elderly, humanity will be reduced to starving geriatrics littering the streets, dying in their own filth. Not a dignifying end.

Also, wouldn't you have to sterilize all the animals on Earth to be a true anti-natalist? And what about possible life in space? In order to end all life everywhere, we must first become a space-faring race.

Here's an idea - antinatalistic people are spoiled brats whose sheltered lives don't provide enough of a struggle for it to feel meaningful. Struggle itself gives meaning, you can adopt a sense of purpose from it.
The fact one avoided discomfort either through his own machinations or one of his parents and was possessed by a low-level spirit of an ideology which leads to his own demise means there are no safe zones in life and we're built to grow stronger through adversity so low-level spirits such as those who possessed those rats in behavioral sink experiments can't take us down. If we manage to grow strong enough this way, by overcoming tribulations, we can become buddhas and shit

>I'm so sure of my convictions that I have determined that no further inquires need to be made

It's just so funny and pathetic how people react to antinatalism. They can't just go and engage with the arguments, they need to throw something about the antinatalist, like how he's a lazy nigger, a pussy, a faggot, etc etc. This reaction to antinatalism is a biological reaction friend, you're a literal NPC, (and i've never used that term unironically before and i'm not using it now)whose cognitive system thinks "hey this other human is attempting at destroying our genes!!! engage him right now!!! abandon reason and fight him!!!".
Also no, suffering doesn't produce anything other than suffering. This tale about 'the man who suffered so much and learned a lot with it' is an american retardation perpetrated by the media. Go talk to old people, go talk to people who actually suffered. They're beyond bitter with life, but they're also numb to it, which's why they don't kill themselves, it has nothing to do with "finding meaning" or whatever bullshit you think it is.

Lmao my theory hit close to home, just smoke some pot and get laid dude, things get better after that

>weed
Cringe.
>get laid dude
Kys incel, women actually makes you worse rather than helping you. I can tell you've never been with a woman if you think "getting laid" will ease your problems in life.

Anti-natalism assumes that physical/material birth is fundamental to consciousness and existence - that mind comes only after material.
Can't prove that tbqh

What makes you even think conciousness is not material? If it's not material, then shoot your own brain and 'see' what happens.

Why would *anyone* give a single fuck about an ideology which message basically is "kill yourself" and who's followers haven't all killed themselves?
And don't give me the "Don't want to leave the theater" retardation, if anyone of you had a sliver of conviction he would hang from the floor, with a rope around his neck.

At least the Marxists *tried* to bring about their utopia and the genuine Christians go to Church, but you are just masturbating about an ideology you, yourself implicitly acknowledge to be false, as you are refusing to accept the conclusions and end the suffering once and for all.

Also you are so fucking wrong it hurts, life isn't suffering. Even an Incel like me has enough fun to go on living, but even aside from that there is LITERALLY nothing wrong with suffering. It being bad is the worst Meme of the modern era.

lmaaaaaaaao incel kys

Most peoples lives arent suffering, suffering usually comes in short bursts unless you were born where it hurts to breathe or something but even people like that still find a reason to push on. Suffering only means anything comparatively to non suffering and for most people the scales dont tip enough in sufferings favor.

You're very sad, I wish I could help you but you can only help yourself break out of whatever your issue is. I've had a fiance leave me for a guy twice my age, lived in extreme poverty since I was a kid among other things so I know a bit more about life than you think I do, I also know when my rationality is being tainted by resentment, thus I can recognize it easily in others. You literally have guidebooks for life which are over 2000 years old still applicable today, the problems they faced are mirrored today, a bit less articulated at the time but at the basic level still the same. They might not have the answers you need but they're good for diagnosis. You are choosing to suffer.

>kys
No, I am adult enough to have realized that life is both suffering and joy and that suffering isn't inherently bad, but an opportunity to better myself.

lol dude you cant even get a gf and you're talking about "bettering myself" or some bullshit. roflmao dude, women are pathetic and you can't subject them to your will, what makes you think you're going to better yourself?

Yes, suffering IS bad. It doesn't matter how you look at it.
"B-but without suffering we wouldn't bla bla bla..."
For fucks sake. Trying to justify suffering is just as stupid as using God as an argument for anything.

The fact this guy generalizes women just makes it obvious he's bitter as fuck because he's not getting any pussy or he got screwed over by a woman because he idealized her and didn't figure out just because someone has a pussy that doesn't make her a saint infallible to human condition - both men and women cheat, get over it.
You can reduce the entire anti-life philosophy to this, sophisticated butthurt ramblings of smart people who are dissatisfied with their sex life.

Does Yea Forums ever discuss literature/philosophy outside of /pol/-tier memes?

and?

>what makes you think you're going to better yourself?
I said suffering was an opportunity to better yourself, of course you have to take that opportunity.

>antinatalism
>/pol/ tier
Look at this newfag trying to fit in.
Fuck off;

A person should choose his beliefs in accordance to a purpose. If you mindlessly refute or scoff at antinatalism because it doesn't preserve our species then you are without profound thought. Likewise if you advocate for antinatalism because life appears to be futile then you are without profound thought. As of yet the population is horrendously uneducated, regardless of how many 'facts' they can count off. Only a few people are cognisant about reality, and even they don't have the complete answers to existence, since the problem is so complicated.

Maintaining life because it's not so bad, or eliminating it because it's insufferable, can both be burned as being of no worth. Be a natalist when it serves a purpose, be an antinatalist when that serves a purpose. Only then can we say that we are a reasonable species worthy of life.

>Yes, suffering IS bad.
Nobody believes that, its totally absurd.
EVERY SINGLE DAY humans willingly inflict suffering upon them, without ANY need.
Going to the gym, working hard, learning a lot, climbing a mountain, etc. all of that is suffering, people inflict upon themselves willingly without any need.

And even IF suffering is so bad, kill yourself, because otherwise I can't take you seriously, you are lying to yourself, you don't even believe your own arguments as you are refusing to accept their conclusions.

>I'm a failure at life and that means life is meaningless
The absolute state of anti natalists

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/pol/ is sane compared to this, at least /pol/tards are willing to commit murder for their beliefs, you can't even accept the conclusions of your own ideology and kill yourself, please don't smear the /pol/tards by associating them with antinatalists.

Better yourself to what end? Can you actually say your existence is valuable? It seems that you are simply trying to justify your life without there actually being a justification to it.

>you are simply trying to justify your life without there actually being a justification to it.
you are simply trying to justify your death without there actually being a justification to it.

But you also refuse to live according to the conclusions to your beliefs, so you don't believe in them yourself.

>Going to the gym, working hard, learning a lot, climbing a mountain, etc. all of that is suffering, people inflict upon themselves willingly without any need.

Because doing nothing is an even worse form of suffering. Boredom is another form of suffering so they TRY to get rid of that feeling by going to the gym. Same reason why people meditate. Same reason why people go to church. They want to get rid of suffering. If you're a pessimistic fuck, no amount of exercise and meditation will help you.

Then put an end to all that suffering and give yourself the bullet, thanks.

I wish I had never been born in the first place.
First of all, no matter how you look at it, the process of killing oneself is yet another for of suffering. Death is terrifying, too, since you don't know what awaits you. And it's hard to abandon everything and everyone when you were born and raised in society. You become attached to things, which is something we shouldn't do because everything is an illusion after all.

Inject heroin and go live an hedonistic life, thanks. Go enjoy the "pleasures" that this thing called life has to offer, simian.

I plan to live indefinitely and possibly create more life for the sole reason that life lived properly is simultaneously pleasurable and with meaning. But if it was revealed that it is truly worthless I would be an antinatalist. Regardless, I am simply attacking your poor reasoning to continue life. You should reevaluate your convictions because they are not intelligible.

>Life is suffering
>I am attached so much to life that I refuse to end it
Choose EXACTLY one.

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No, thanks.
As I said I am an adult who realizes that suffering isn't inherently bad, that makes me not a hedonist.

But good job at avoiding the immediate conclusions from your own beliefs.

This the most impotent ideology of all time

What the fuck are you doing about it

This is bad poetry user

>I am simply attacking your poor reasoning to continue life
No, you aren't.
Its a pretty awful argument, placing the "burden of proof" upon something which can not be proven and which is the status quo.
It is purely upon the antinatalists to demonstrate that life isn't worth anything and that we should change our patters of behavior according to their ideology.
But since every single one here refuses to live up to their own ideology it has pretty much defeated itself.

>You should reevaluate your convictions
What are my convictions then?
Except for "life/suffering isn't all that bad".

>WHY DON'T YOU KILL YOURSELF THEN

That wouldn't put and end to the never ending repetitive cycle of birth and death (Samsara).
I have some higher ideas in mind.

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BASED
A
S
E
D

If you are spending your time on Yea Forums you are so far away from ending the cycle of death and rebirth that you better take the bullet and try again in a new life.

What makes you certain of that?

>our lifes

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He’s jealous of your zeal and wants to bring you down

>Life is Suffering
>Buddha

While that might be true, the buddha offers a way out. You're being defeatist.

Yea Forums is ruining my life to be honest, destroying my virtues and wasting enormous amounts of time, just projecting a bit.

Look, guys
At last, he recognized that life is suffering after all and that his life in particular is even more miserable than that of others.

Well, I don't think that is entirely genuine of you.
The anti-suffering of Yea Forums is what is harming me after all.