Nihilism

Can nihilism (as it's used colloquially) be overcome through reason? Every rebuttal to the meaninglessness of existence I've come across has been some sort of extra-rational leap of faith or pragmatic consideration of nihilism's implications. I've dealt with nihilism using the latter approach, but I've never been completely content with it.

Let me summarize my layman's understanding of the problem and people's attempts at tackling it:
>Nothing has any inherent meaning. Free will doesn't exist, you're just a collection of atoms and experiences and the universe is a cold dark machine.

Rebuttal 1: "You only think that way because you don't know the Truth of God. Once you take the leap of faith and surrender yourself to Him, you'll find that the world is filled with meaning and significance and wonder why you didn't accept this Truth sooner. "

Rebuttal 2: "This may be true in some cold mechanical sense, but it's not a philosophy we can live by, so we have to create our own meaning within the framework of how humans experience the world (which isn't always strictly "rational")."

Rebuttal 1 feels like some form of self delusion (I use this term as respectfully as possible, I acknowledge that this is a legitimate way to live your life), while Rebuttal 2 doesn't really rebut the problem itself. It's basically a cope.

So I'll ask you guys who have probably read a lot more than me: have you found an answer that isn't some variation of these 2? Are these rebuttals more substantial than I'm acknowledging? I don't like that my "true" baseline, honest worldview is so bleak and cold and that I basically get through life by ignoring this truth. I want to overcome it.

Attached: 1549949365213.jpg (1280x958, 348K)

The last step of reason is to recognize that there are infinite things beyond it.

Attached: 91C47471-CE2B-48F5-83C1-7C1073DEABEF.jpg (303x475, 24K)

If free will does not exist, the world has driven people to define and achieve meaning. Thus, the world governs meaning itself and everything therefore has inherent meaning since the world has given people the definition of meaning and the means with which to seek out their own. It’s a contradiction. If there is no free will, there must be inherent meaning. If there is free will, there is subjective meaning. To deny meaning would be to deny the possibility of forming a belief or thought.

stupidest shit I've read all day

Just laugh at nihilists. They are silly.
>The universe is nothing but a cold dark machine
We know effectively nothing about the universe and by extension reality. Le black science man talks about some EM waves we've detected from the void and all of a sudden empiricists and logicians declare everything meaningless because physics is weird and space is spooky. It is an absurd position. We do not even understand our own consciousness, yet so many are ready to say it is worthless. There is quite possibly meaning beyond your mortal comprehension that underlies all of existence. How anyone has the arrogance to believe they can disprove this is astonishing. They think the universe is a machine consisting of merely of the movement of waves and particles dictated by deterministic principles. For those of you unacquainted with physics: WE DON'T KNOW WHY ANYTHING HAPPENS. Nobody knows what gravity is. Nobody knows where electrons are going to be. Nobody knows why the laws of the universe apparently hold. Determinism takes as much dogmatic faith as belief in a higher power.
Nihilists should either grow the fuck up and play the extraordinary game they've been placed in, or quietly step off the ride.
No one has a rational basis to declare life meaningless.

I take it back, this is the stupidest thing I've read all day

Reason IS nihilism

this

>Nothing has any inherent meaning. Free will doesn't exist, you're just a collection of atoms and experiences and the universe is a cold dark machine.
This is also a narrative with an inherent moral meaning.

How about you choose not to rationalize yourself into despair and misery for no good reason.

>I don't like that my "true" baseline, honest worldview is so bleak and cold

I have been dealing with this sentiment and the irrefutable nature of this view many years ago for a long time. It might be true that nihilism is in itself a truth, but when you look at your life and all of human history you will notice that what Nietzsche said in Beyond Good and Evil holds meaning for the untruth matter more than truths. But no nihilism can not be overcome in reason as the fundaments it builds it overarching nihility on is undeniable.

There is a wide spectrum to nihilism, which though united in cognition, is often widely separated by temperament. In the benign or comic or amiable kind of it, one accepts the weight of evidence for mortality, and tries to make the best of what's available in a "we're all in this together" spirit, not really caring that much about whether one scores a lot of credit in opinions about achievement, yet considering seriously, conscientiously, as something that matters as much as anything can matter, the effect one's acts have on posterity as well as on how loved ones live today. In the anti-social or hypocritical or incendiary kind, one also accepts the weight of evidence for mortality, but may pretend otherwise, in the process of cynically manipulating others only to one's own short-term advantage, taking a little extra pleasure in the power and spectacle of marching them off to their doom, where convenient. Of course it is to be expected that such a fact of history-as-biography is typically neglected in dialectic, which of its nature is speculative. But we would have to get out anyway, and have the roses we plant, even if we had forever, if forever were to be worthwhile. So forever or not, is not all there is to whether or not one's days, and perspective on life, are bleak or florid.

Yes, read Leopardi

Meaning has never been outside ourselves

>Rebuttal 2 doesn't really rebut the problem itself. It's basically a cope.
The reason why you see it as unsatisfactory is only because of your prior assumptions about the necessity of inherent meanings and absolute values purportedly demanded by the reason. Perhaps there's nothing wrong with "copes" as such, and the unreflective derision with which "copes" are treated on internet forums in the year 2019 deserves critical reconsideration.
If you're interested in finding ultimate truths at all costs, you might end up in "a cold dark machine". But if your goals concern "getting through life", you can achieve it reasonably well without worrying about collections of atoms and such things.
Absolute cold honesty about the true nature of things might give you a nice buzz and a feeling of intellectual superiority for a while, but with respect to what your life mostly consists in, it's rather pointless form of mental masturbation.
I know that it's not the kind of answer that you wanted and that it might appear as a shallow cop-out, but I would just like to suggest that you rethink the very basis of your position. All "rebuttals" will appear inadequate under your standards, because of how you rigged the game for yourself. What is described as "coping", i.e. focusing on finding good pragmatic solutions to the situations you actually find yourself in, might be actually more wise and gratifying than seeking any such rebuttals.

Attached: sorry.jpg (500x375, 54K)

It's not about intellectual superiority, I just find the concept demoralizing. Every hope, dream, ambition, improvement, love, hate, success failure I experience as a human is taking place within the "ultimate" reality of cold mechanical infinity.

It affects my moral approach to life, even if I try not to let it. There's a duality in how I view things: the "real" truth, and the web of meanings humans create socially that I participate in.

Contrast this view with absolute certainty of God, having complete conviction in everything you do moving forward. There's no conflict there, no switching between whats really real and what is treated as real. I have self control issues and I know one of the only reliable ways to tackle addiction is to shut down your reasoning and surrender to a power higher than yourself. I just can't bring myself to do this though. I'd always know I was "pretending" underneath it all, and I don't want to build my life on straw.

One concept that excites me is gnosis, because it's so widely attested to and it's as real to the person who experiences it as their own consciousness. It sounds like the perfect way to break me out of this rut with an entirely new experience that makes me question my own reason. But as far as I know, it may not be attainable for someone like me.

>the universe is a cold dark machine
>cold mechanical infinity
What did you mean by this? Which bits of the universe?

>nihilism (as it's used colloquially)
>(as it's used colloquially)
Where do you think you are?

Have you read Albert Camus?

Free will exists because the future hasn't happened yet. If it had, free will wouldn't exist, but then it wouldn't really be the future would it?

What is your Duty? To serve Emperor's Will.
What is Emperor's Will? That we fight and die.
What is Death? It is our duty.
What is your Duty? ...

Now replace "Emperor" and "fight and die" with anything you like; that's your meaning, eternal service to someone/something. Why lie to yourself and say that you are not a slave? To embrace servitude is to embrace true freedom.

I know it sounds like I'm trying to naively deflate what appears to be an important philosophical issue that demands philosophical solutions, but the problem as you pose it is really psychological and concerns your personal attitude to things. We can agree that universe is heartless, meaningless and uncaring, but there really isn't any good reason why it should have much bearing on activities such as eating cakes, driving bikes or helping friends. Excessive concern with ultimate nature of things is a morbid and thoroughly unhelpful obsession even if it presents itself as a sign of greater intelligence or perspicacity. If the rain pours down on you, the shrewd thing to do is to seek shelter; knowledge of the meteorological causes of the rain or the physics of soaking doesn't dissolve the issue at hand in any meaningful manner.
"Human world", when analyzed with sufficient scrutiny, reveals itself to be built on different levels of lies and fictions. Some of those fictions are completely idiotic and superficial, but some are pretty nice and useful. As long as you're not sucidal, you can't help but recognize yourself as a person with goals, preferences, interests and capacity to make choices (even if you know "deep down" that these are just another illusions when considered from the standpoint of "real truth"). Socially created meanings, while not written in stone, help you to manage and realize such things, and it would be just dumb to discredit them wholesale because they don't reach your standard of what constitues sufficiently good meaning.
I think it's telling that you invoke "absolute certainty of God" as a position that would be preferable if only intellectual honesty would allow it. The whole nihilistic crisis in Western culture occured after the centuries-long belief in a god-ordained purpose of all things suddenly became untenable (or at least questionable); however, the very idea that we need some absolute meaning woven into the very structure of reality in order for us to function is inherited from monotheism. Nihilism of the kind you describe wouldn't be much of a problem if we weren't that used to the idea of a divine assurance.
Contrary to all appearances, I'm not advocating self-imposed ignorance. To my best knowledge, there aren't any good "rebuttals" to nihilism of the form you're asking for (ie. arguments that would somehow show that there is a "real" reality which is nevertheless a solid source of hope or meaning). But if you're asking if nihilism can be overcome through reason, the first step would be to reasonably reconsider your own assumptions that lead you to the feelings of demoralization (eg. "inherent meanings are indispensable", "hopes, dreams, ambitions etc. are not worth a damn if they aren't sufficiently grounded in some greater objective truths").

(cont.)
There are lot of books written by people who struggled with similar issues and came up with solutions that might be of some help. Between Hellenistic ethical schools, Buddhism, Daoism, 19th century Pessimism (say, Leopardi & Schopenhauer), Nietzscheanism, Existentialism, theories of immediacy of ordinary life (say, Heidegger & Wittgenstein or the American Pragmatists) you should be able to find ideas that make sense to you. These are not neccessarily final genius solutions to the problem of nihilism as you describe it, but chances are that they can lead to such a redescription of it under which it no longer hinders your life.

I don't even understand your plight OP. Everyone strives for some form of happiness. You just can't get that so you give a name to your despair and call it nihilism. You haven't logically concluded that your problem is the absence of meaning. This is your mind playing tricks and not letting you confront your self.

Fine, assuming what you said is right then we’re left with a meaning that’s impossible for us to know or understand which is just as good if not worse than no meaning whatsoever. And don’t claim religion as if that’s any less arrogant

post-modernity

>This is your mind playing tricks and not letting you confront your self.
its protecting him, he cant handle the truth yet

Nihilism is a speculative opportunity desu. Read Nihil Unbound by Ray Brassier, specifically the chapter on Nietzsche

No, it can't. But one can turn reason back on itself -- what is the purpose for reason? We hold it to be a powerful normative ethical value, but what is the basis of that? Reason has no purpose. Abandon it.

>Can nihilism (as it's used colloquially) be overcome
Yes
> through reason?
No

Whats the truth, oh doublea user

>nothing matters... Except that nothing matters, that makes me sad

This may be within the bounds of 2, but aren't the very rules of logic an invention? Who's to say there isn't another set of axioms which is the basis of logic that matched or exceeds our current system of logic in modelling the universe? Isn't everything filtered through a cognitive lense? So if the logical system we've invented is just an extension of subjectivity, who's to say logic stands above other concepts, such as meaning?