What are your thoughts on this book? I really enjoyed the folk politics part

Better a pet than a farm animal

Not really. A farm animal can revolt, a pet can't.

even aristocrats make themselves do work, surrogate activities keep the human mind healthy

Do you have any hobbies? A passion that drives you? You're on Yea Forums, surely the idea of devoting your life to the study and creation of literature is an appealing concept?

>so the work they do is purely for self fulfillment

The thing is that people like to work because it gives them fulfillment by being useful. They cannot get this fulfillment when the 'work' they do is completely useless. Many UBI acolytes and communists do not seem to realize this because they never interact with the working class

Aristocrats usually had to do stuff that had use, whether it was religious, administrative, or millitary. If you really want everything automated, then no such thing will be possible, and all work will become useless.

>They cannot get this fulfillment when the 'work' they do is completely useless.
We're not talking about artists and self-employed types even, just because UBI is achieved then it doesn't mean that desk or field jobs will go away.
The goal is to provide a financial security net that covers every tax payer, especially the lower and middle class because they take the worst hits when their corporate employers fail them. Public sector is underfunded in most places anyway, so those jobs aren't secure either.
Disguised unemployment is also a sizeable factor and it is pretty prevalent in developing countries especially, but also in developed countries - especially the service industry. All it takes for it to turn into unemployment is recession, or just failed targets. That is useless work.

What do you find meaningful about your work? Imagine the answer you just gave became false overnight. Would you still believe in work the way you do, would you choose a life of work over a leisure lifestyle if offered?

Im a medical scientist, and i enjoy helping people with my research
>imagine if it became false overnight
how the fuck am i supposed to 'imagine it's false' overnight? 'Just imagine you're suddenly depressed'? If so, then leasure wont help at all. If any, it'll confront me more with the emptiness of depressed existence.

Honestly, dont you see how many people, after a vacation, eventually get an itch to get back to work? Like doing nothing is fun for a while, but you'll eventually want to do something productive. Do you never interact with the employed?

Anti-work fags (like myself) aren't really against work per se, they are against wage slavery. We could definitely afford to work 15 or 20 hours per week and still have a functional society right now. The problem is that it is not in the interest of capital.
That's actually related to the reason why the left sucks so much nowadays: we totally abandoned the goal of reducing work hours after WWII, and got trapped into divisive idpol shit instead.
I don't mind helping my friends to move furniture, or my local DIY space for a paintjob, whatever, I feel good and useful after doing such stuff. Corporate shit, on the other hand, is soulcrushing, and yet it pays the bills. It has a certain usefulness, but we can probably reduce the amount of paperpushing and useless Excel shit nonetheless.

But all that will eventually be automated away, even the most mundane white collar tasks. There will eventually be nothing left to do that a machine cannot do better, and people will only have meaningless and often useless work left to do.

This guy gets it. I was honestly at my happiest when I was a part timer still living at home, way fitter too. Wageslavery can pay the bills but its not even slightly fulfilling

>Verso

Well someone's got to give handjobs to the children of the bourgeoisie who decided to become marxists to LARP.

Just imagine you derived nothing from helping others. That’s not necessarily depression.

I watched a woman retire then unretire because she couldn’t just sit with herself and her emotions and find meaning in that subjectivity. All she can fathom is external rules and money. Her mind is competent but barren. Her soul is a clod.

What do you find meaning and passion in outside work? Why do you believe you’re not a repressed, subjectively absent person?

The human is a pet, bred as such by a world of work and its accompanying philosophy (Hegelianism). See the second essay of the Genealogy of Morals.

...

this is painfully stupid

youtu.be/fJ8TUAVpUXo

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>It takes strong, aristocratic natures to do nothing - but 'tis they who'll be masters of the earth.
NEETS Rise Up!

>UBI
>Postcapitalism
UBI is a Trojan horse

fuck off

No U, Yang poster

i would rather work for israel

>protect the proletariat they can’t know better!

Whose the disdainful one here? You think your “harsh truth” is fruit of the genetic tree? It’s just a mental framework of vestigial memes. A horse drawn carriage riding into the tech age. Free the people from the work, free them from the work meme, and you’ll see their mind expand to fill the place prohibited by their chains.

If you can’t see this your vision is myopic and dim.

why does capital want us working longer hours?

& you didn’t argue you’re not one of the repressed. in fact, you seem to be ok with your puppeteered state...?

Where did i even imply that they dont know better? The person in question experienced leasure in retirement, yet chose to work instead. She was fully aware of both options, and chose work because it gave her fulfillment. Many people are like this, and a rejection of government hand-outs by rust-belt unemployed workers comes from the same desire: People want to work; they want to be useful.
The anti-work ideologue cannot fathom this, since he sees work as something evil, and can only dismiss these people as poor slave who are unaware of their shackles. 'Freeing' people from work has the same deleterious effect as freeing them from all stress, and turns people into lethargic and sometimes catatonic drones. The idea that everyone can be a wonderful creative artist/philosopher if they just have the leasure to do so is utopian bullshit, and you would know this if you ever bothered to ask working class people what they really want.

You'd think that the left would at least try to reconnect with the working class after they lost them completely, but it seems like they're content to just dictate what they want for them.

yea bro... like ... fuck work... i just wanna smoke weed and play cod and listen to skrillex all day

fuckin capitalist pigs....

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>fruit of the genetic tree

Hard to imagine you’re a researcher when you’re not even clear on your own assumptions. Let me slow it down for you...

Do you think people evolved to believe in the 8 hour work day or merely adapted to the necessity of survival in post-evolution modern civilization?

If the former, you’re biased to the point of brain washed. If the latter, then new adaptation is possible in a new environment (automated) and may even be beneficial, no?

This but unironically

>reddit spacing
>reddit humor
typical

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yea i am sure people derive meaning from sitting all day at a desk and doing bureaucratic paper work or being a coding monkey. work has no meaning in the modern age im sure most people would rather use their time to try to do something creative or read and educate themselves on something and if some people want to play vidya who cares.

it serves the needs of the uppervclass. they can sit at the top screwing everyone else while everyone feels exhausted doing mind numbing tasks not able to think about how badly they are being screwed.

>Do you think people evolved to believe in the 8 hour work day or merely adapted to the necessity of survival in post-evolution modern civilization?
That's really not what we're discussing here. We're discussing whether people need to work, and whether there is an innate desire/need for work, NOT an 8 hour work day as we have today. Anti-work wants to abolish all work, not just return to a medieval mode where we had more leasure, or even further back where we had subsistence farming in a tribal setting. I'm not asserting that we have an innate desire for an 8 hour desk job, but i am asserting that we have an innate desire for work, and that humans have always been in an environment where they had to work.

>If the latter, then new adaptation is possible in a new environment (automated) and may even be beneficial, no?
What we have seen thus far is that animals and people don't adapt, they shut down and stop fulfilling even the most basic biological functions. Organisms don't adapt for it, because there's nothing to adapt to. Adaptation implies that there is a stressor to which the organism must adjust itself, but that is not the case here. When everything is taken care of, then animals just collapse. They dont develop themselves, they dont become creative; they just succumb to a sessile, vegetative state. Many dont even bother reproducing, highlighting how unnatural such a state of being is.

so it's to tire us out bc if we worked less we'd be able to see that we need to get rid of the upperclass?

Aristocrats enjoy leisure, not sloth, and it's plainly apparent that you aren't one. Go larp some place else.

Oh fuck off

Are you a NEET? I don't dislike your posts but it seems you're on this board every second of the day. Please write a book or something.

>yea i am sure people derive meaning from sitting all day at a desk and doing bureaucratic paper work or being a coding monkey.
There actually are people who enjoy that. I know the average commie cannot fathom that, but yeah, they exist. Im not one of them, but i do know people who enjoy being code monkeys and i know people who enjoy being labrats. And they're not lying, they genuinely enjoy it.

The issue here is that automation will make all jobs obsolete. Shitty clerk work, but also creative manufacturing work and even scientific work, medical practices, juridical work, etc. The jobs that many people actually do find fulfilling will no longer be accessible to them, because machines can do them far more effectively. What then? You can say that we should then just stop work altogether, but by doing so you are robbing people of their sense of accomplishment and worth.

>always had to work

You concede 8 hour days is unnatural, I concede 0 hour work days is unnatural. Bonobos are clearly genetically better suited to a leisure life than their neighbors, which suggests an answer in Crispr down the road.

>stressor to which the organism must adjust itself

Ennui is the stressor. The adaptation will involve a change in the meme diet, one that facilitates a fulfilling lifestyle, whatever that may look like. Your pessimism is unwarranted. Without robust proposals and experimentation, it’s premature to say that all en masse leisure lifestyles are DOA. Surly the scientist in you can agree with that.

most people do not like doing bureaucratic busy work and hate their jobs and would prefer to do something else like a creative endeavor or educate themselves but they do not have that option. the fact that you think people find meaning in doing these mind numbing tasks is all ideology.

>purpose and direction only come from sorting papers and pushing pencils

What a visionary

>You concede 8 hour days is unnatural, I concede 0 hour work days is unnatural. Bonobos are clearly genetically better suited to a leisure life than their neighbors, which suggests an answer in Crispr down the road.
Setting aside the fact that genetically modifying people to be content with being lazy pieces of shit isn't something we should do, Bonobos also suffer from a behavioral sink when we do everything for them. They become fat as fuck and cant move properly. But besides that, why should we take monkeys as our ideal?

Ennui isn't a stressor. At a purely physiological level, it doesnt function the same as actual stressors, because it doesnt prompt us to actually do anything, or to become more productive. It is entirely negative in this sense.

>most people do not like doing bureaucratic busy work and hate their jobs and would prefer to do something else like a creative endeavor or educate themselves but they do not have that option
What do you base that on? Did you ask them? Do you really think they'd become shitty painters if they could go on welfare and see that as a fulfilling life? Im not going to deny that many people hate their jobs, but the idea that they would give it all up to become 'creative' is nonsense, as for the majority being 'useful' is more important than being 'creative'.

From my experience, most people who like their jobs are usually involved with tangible projects, either in science or even in business. They're not alienated from their product, since they oversee it, produce it, and then see the result and feel like they accomplished something. Such people would never give that up and go on welfare to be creative.

>lazy pieces of shit
So it looks like you don’t realize that that judgement is a manufactured meme, same as hating fags. You could genetically alter people to be happy in activity, to argue against that is to hold up a “god hates fags” sign. If you’re at the level of mistaking fiction for reality, your biased to the level of brainwashed. Is that you, do you not see the contingent genealogical nature of your judgement? If not the convo is dead, I may as well be debating the god question.

>doesn’t prompt action

That’s applicable to non-humans, but to humans it’s indirectly a stressor. At the top level of thought, a meme diet is proposed, digested by the masses, results are assessed, and modifications made. It’s a top down experimental method process. Why would you argue against experimentation when the status quo is statistically dire. You’ve read the work satisfaction stats.

>science or even in business
You’re talking about the genetic elite. That’s like saying “the economy is working for the top 10% so why change it?”

"creative" can mean a lot of things outside practicing art. anyway if you think people like being away from their families 12 hours a day to sit in a desk and wouldnt find something else to do like volunteering in their community (something which is useful but there is no value given to it) you are deluded by your ideology.

Families are oppressive bourgeoise constructs anyway. If we're gonna do away with work, then families will be put on the chopping block as well.

I have been a neet for so long now that i have stress about going outside.
If a bunch of robots turned the world into neets too i would feel like i won the fucking game. Like this is my element, all the other faggots wasted thier lives as wagies while i read philosophy books and learned how to properly make art

Ah, but the concept of a genetic (or innate, rather) elite will rear its head again when you're abolishing work. Because what do people do then? They cannot really be creative, because their creativity is thoroughly mediocre. It's like asking people to have a fulfilling life by doing the adult equivalent of making drawings in kindergarten.

You could solve this by doing ruthless population control and eugenics to produce really creative individuals, but otherwise you're going to have a large population of people who won't be able to find any fulfillment in anything.

There is this book called blindness where a disease appears that makes the whole world go blind. A bunch of people are carted off to some government holding facility to be quarantined. But there are also people there who were born blind and they take full advantage of the newbs by raping the blind women

If the whole world became neets i would feel like those guys who were born blind.

I will tell you this. If you think life is meaningless now wait till you have no job and nothing to do. I imagine quite a lot of people are going to go insane and the suicide rate is going to jump.

For me its been a long journey of cutting through the jungle branches called massive depression reading about different philosophies, politcs, and religions till i came on the other side and found Schopenhauer and Nietzsche

people will find things to do lol they had much more free time in the past anyway. sure people will feel bored but so what that is what is part of life boredom pushes people to do things, the present system currently makes everything boring but it does not even allow people to feel bored only endless stress because they are pushed to do useless task after useless task ad infintum using their creative energy all up on trying to make more capital to get by to pay their rent making everyone feel exhausted and unable to do anything else with their life. you are a bootlicker get your head out of your ideology.

I went from NEET, to part time worker to now full wageslave and can honestly say NEET I was 100% the happiest, fittest and unironically got laid the most. I will admit much of that time was inherently "Hedonistic" but damn was it good.

>not objectively perfect = not subjectively worthwhile

You’ve got yourself a cognitive bias. You really have a low awareness of your prejudices.

& you gleefully skipper over the part where your point was refuted.

So I guess that’s why this debate is so slow, the oppo is chocked full of vestigial memes buttressed by hot emotions and low awareness. Huh

Work = productivity, at least on paper. Many jobs, especially office related, you'll find that most employees only work a certain amount of the time doing actual work. Say 2 out of 6. Still you'll be burnt out/tired from the monotony, which drives you to spend money on conveniences as well. We work so hard to vacation because because it's a fucking escape from your own life.

>posts Beavis and Butthead
>thinks COD is relevant
>Skrillex

this is either horseshoe irony to the point it's retarded, or some extremely out of touch oldfag

I like working. Or rather I like doing the activity for which I am employed.

This thread made me hate communism wtf.

What activity is that?

I think the best solution to the problem of mental health sustainability in the absence of work, is constant mindfulness. We’ll have to turn the country into a monkish monastery

I troubleshoot (rather highly automated) machinery in a factory when it fucks up or breaks down. It is challenging and fun. and I always have to approach a new call with a critical and open eye. Also, I get to read a lot on the clock (when nothing is fucking up on the backshift hours). Last weekend I read two (short) books all at work.

>If the latter, then new adaptation is possible in a new environment (automated) and may even be beneficial, no?
"Automated/not-automated" is not the only environmental factor at play. For an anti-work society to function (that is, provide its populace with a meaningful existence), the banishment of leisurely activities that are not conducive with this end will be necessary. Videogames, TV, smartphones, computers, internet, must be done away with.

based and redpilled

>Videogames, TV, smartphones, computers, internet, must be done away with.
See I'm usually opposed to this sort of "everybody can just chill" utopianism but now you're selling me on it.

>done away with
Nah, just regulated, or at least that’s a hypothesis.

Am I worried about a totalitarian u/dys-topia where our genetic profiles are used to determine our status, interests, accomplishments, etc? Yes, I am, because that’s the system we live in and it’s shit. Post-work would at least involve honesty.

So you’re happy and satisfied with the work. What if everyone called you a piece shit for the work you do would you still be satisfied and happy?

Life without work is inevitable, but not in our lifetime sadly.

I want to devote more time to creative pursuits

Who is every one? Like strangers spit on me in the grocery store when they heard I was a troubleshooter in a factory? I don't think that could change how I felt about an activity. I also like working on my truck and amplifier and all kinds of stuff, things which cost rather than credit me money. I am not entirely sure what you are driving at.

Public perception of your work is a mediator of your satisfaction ie It’s possible you’re only satisfied with your work because of public approbation and money. Which would mean your situation wouldn’t necessarily be relevant to the question at hand, post automation. If you didn’t have to work for money but they set up a troubleshooting apparatus where you could wile away the hours of the day, would you still do it?

Well, as I said, I enjoy working on things at home. A machine whose purpose is to break so that I may fix it isn't very interesting (if that is what you are proposing) and I don't think I would waste my time on such a thing. Part of what is cool about my job is fixing these massive machines which are useful and productive. The context makes the machine, in a way.
I am not sure if public perception of my job effects very much how I view it or enjoy it, nor that there really is a public perception of my job. To me my job is like solving a logic puzzle but the result is something useful.
Once long ago I was a cook. There are many television programs, I understand, which glorify cooking and gastronomy and all that. I fucking hated cooking. Worst goddamn job imaginable. Most people who knew what I really do now probably wouldn't be too impressed or they would think that is a filthy job for the lower classes (which is correct on both accounts). I am frequently covered in all manner of petrochemical greases and oils, I cut my hands and arms on metal burs or from my ratchet slipping a nut. There isn't much glamor in it.
I am paid (what I consider) well, and that definitely doesn't hurt.

here is the ultimate black pill: people that are able to be productive and competitive have no problems with our current system. UBI solves a problem for inherently defective people that will NEVER be economically productive because they obviously would be already. Everything would stay the same except company profits would be even more subsidized

>here is the ultimate black pill: people that are able to be productive and competitive have no problems with our current system.
I disagree. I have posted several times above about how I like my job, however I have several criticisms of the current system. It is true though that none of my criticisms are that some people have more than others nor that people have to engage in productive activity in order to receive things. I find nothing whatsoever wrong with those aspects of our society. In fact, a completely catered-to society sounds like a nice recipe for some last men type of scenario where people just devolve into fatass worthless types obsessed with their own comfort. It takes a wolf to make the deer fleet etc

Like with the other guy, your enjoyment of the work is dependent on a belief in the utility of it. But that’s a meme you could just as well not feel the pull of, as is the case for many if not most lower wage workers.

The reality is the genetic elite are rewarded with purpose and meaning (partially socially contingent) while the de-gene-erates are stuck in bored slavery, deluding themselves to satisfy the congenitally elite.

Besides the elite, pro-work is as pernicious a meme as racism, with similar epistemics. Facing automation, we need to weed out the prejudices.

Unrelated, what books do you read, there’s a pleasant Everyman quality to your writing, Raymond carver comes to mind.

That’s right. You’re socioeconomic status is largely predictable by GWS at zygote re: polygenic score

Sounds like Nietzscheian hate of “herd morality”. You’re fine with survival of the fittest, but not with contentment of the fattest? How do you square that?

>your enjoyment of the work is dependent on a belief in the utility of it. But that’s a meme you could just as well not feel the pull of, as is the case for many if not most lower wage workers.
This is maybe true. It feels good to accomplish things which are useful or otherwise pleasing to me. I like working with machines and plus that it has an obvious benefit. I doubt workers whose work is more rote and who are afforded no sense of progress feel the way I do. I also make music and similar other little things that likewise bring me joy, these are not strictly useful but they bring me an analogous feeling as when I get to the bottom of some issue at work.
What you call pro-work (I am not in love with wage labor, corporations or capitalism generally) I call pride in accomplishment and if pride in accomplishment is a 'prejudice' to be 'weeded out,' I think your kind has a tough row to hoe. I would anticipate a mass psychological crisis in a world where all men are in effect superfluous and useless.
My favorite works of fiction are probably Gulliver's Travels, Tristram Shandy, Antigone, King Lear, Winnie-the-Pooh and The House at Pooh Corner.

>You’re fine with survival of the fittest, but not with contentment of the fattest?
I don't mind that there are fat content people but I doubt anything interesting or incredible will come of it. Survival of the fittest, however, has given us all manner of life's expression. Thousands of generations dogged by the wolf at the door have given us blue whales, the albatross, spider lillies, the elephant.

woah george

>Pride in accomplishment
Pride is a positive thing, shame it’s opposite. I wonder if the pride is motivated by the shame. If you get pride for accomplishing anything, that indicates it’s merely a shame ward. If it’s from accomplishing something interesting in itself, then it’s not about shame, but it’s probably also not making you any money. And that’s the problem. Many people know that happiness and success are very rarely intersecting tracks. In many cases your supporting a sisyphusian life.

>survival of the fittest
People think that because it’s natural it’s justified. Or because the ends are good it follows that the means are good. SotF is murder plain and simple.

honestly i found it was well structured but sort of uninspired. But at least its a good intro for like redpilling a progressive liberal into socialist views. folk politics was pretty interesting as i recall but i dont exactly remember the point. tl;dr anyone?

If you’re smart enough to do better, why aren’t you embarrassed about leaving potential on the table and accepting less ambition and lower status?

Not that guy, but no

That's not the ultimate black pill. It's a blue pill wagies take to convince themselves they're satisifed with their miserable lives. You're just making a virtue of necessity. I was a lawyer at the type of firm most law students dream of working at and yet half my former coworkers and I detest our current system. Fortunately it only took me a few years to save enough money to be NEET for a while.

imagine earning meme scrip for some other faggot and telling yourself it's fulfilling