How far can Buddhism help to release me from earthly desires?

Buddhism is very powerful but in the end it succumbs to life denying nihilism, not for the reasons most people think though.

Buddhism is just a raft to the other shore. Once you take your first few steps on a land free of temptation and desire, you can find your own path.

Potentially all the way, supposedly. If you stop chasing material luxuries, pussy, status and intoxicants you’re already 90% there though.

>Spiritual but not religious xDxdxDd

embarrassing brainlets confusing the extinction of craving with void worship itt

is summer fuckin here early or what

As a kid I dabbled in Buddhism and had exceptional success with it. I for some reason realized transcendental meditation which is an experience only comparable to hard drugs (yeah, yeah..spiritual materialism bad). But ultimately the nihilism frightened me. I was not ready to let go of myself, philosophically I wasn't sure if it constituted the right path as I am fundamentally western in orientation. So yeah, it actually does work. If you want you can completely disintegrate your self.

opentheory.net/2018/12/the-neuroscience-of-meditation/

Extinction of craving is de facto antinatalism.

ty user most kindly

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The experience btw is that of death.

The aversion to life is still aversion, and craving and aversion are two sides of the same coin.

antinatalism is preferable to life in samsara, but not life as such

Happy to hear it, user.
In my case, I just ordered a few books that I'm excited to get into as soon as they arrive.
Buddhist India by TW Rhys Davids
The Sutta Nipata (translated by the Pali Text Society)
Nagarjuna's Fundamental Verses of the Middle Way
and a Pali Text Society translation of the Theragatha, verses of the elder monks

it's a huge field is what i'm realizing, in an earlier thread another user recommended to start with the basics - the Pali Discourses and books like this. i guess i'm leaning more towards Dzogchen simply because that was my point of entry. i had read some Buddhist and Buddhist-inspired stuff before - Bodhidharma, for instance, things like this. but the Tibetans were pretty much a mystery to me until a few days ago and now i feel really...well, *more awake* so to speak, just in trying to pay attention to things. that the mind cannot represent itself is really a remarkable thought.

about the various schools and traditions i know virtually nothing, but i'm finding it all quite interesting. hope your own studying goes well! thanks again for that article.

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If you're looking for an honest answer, the hope comes from realizing that there is a path to the cessation of suffering: the Noble Eightfold Path. The joy typically comes as a byproduct of eliminating delusions and unwholesome mental states like hatred, greed, ill-will...etc. Joy also arises from practicing loving-kindness, which is actually the greatest motivator for fully enlightened beings (beings that have realized Nirvana) to continue doing things in the world instead of meditating in a cave 'til they die: they have boundless compassion for all beings by default due to their profound and deep understanding of suffering, so they spend their time helping others to reach the cessation of suffering.

Oh haha that wasn't me who shared that article that was someone else.
Also I would similarly recommend the Pali Canon, it really is the foundation of Buddhism, I cannot understate how much I've learned from it.

well, thanks for the reminder anyways. and thank you to the user who *did* share that article also! i'll look into the Pali Canon tomorrow then. these Tibetans are intense! but it's a good kind of intense.

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Also, if I can share one of my favourite suttas with you that I think you'll appreciate:
>The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

>"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is delighting in sensual pleasure, any passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling. As he does not discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then any ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

>...

>"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

>"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is not delighting in sensual pleasure, no passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling. As he discerns the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling, no ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.
- SN 36.6

I imagine you have that new flowchart that's been floating around the Buddhist threads lately

He may

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Cool, Buddhism thread. Hello brothers, I am looking for books that give a history of Mahayana Buddhism or it's various subsets. Please and thank you for the help.

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this is going to sound outrageously stupid but what the fuck, might as well post it. i always kind of thought Sheng-Ji Yang was a boss for basically building a doctrine of suffering and feedback loops into his (sadly unreadable) 'Essays on Mind and Matter.' i know, from the sublime to the ridiculous. but still tho...right? the only problem with this is that it can become an intensely sadomasochistic way of viewing things, however effective. my guess is that the more i learn about the Buddha the more i'm going to consider the possibility that brutal feedback systems based on pain-pain are probably suboptimal in the long run...

that's a good passage user. ty for sharing it, sorry i don't have anything equally wise to share in return! but this is what came to mind...argh...!

i do indeed, that one was thoughtfully shared in the other thread. i was even meditating for a while, it's amazing how fucking hard it is to literally count ten breaths and not have your mind explode in 1324892 different directions, which is exactly what mine does and why i kinda feel Journey to the West is such a great book. Monkey Mind is indeed a thing and the Monkey is strong with me.

i had looked into Nagarjuna before too and found him to be dry as dust, but i understand he's a pretty major figure along the way. and also i was basically in Nick Land mode all the time, so, this is perhaps to be expected. this is all very kind anons, ty.

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mebbe this?

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Read Nyanananda for now if you find Nagarjuna to be too dry IMO
Or just keep exploring the suttas of course

>History of the various schools and traditions
This will probably help.
Interestingly enough, Kalupahana was a student of K.N. Jayatilleke, a student of Wittgenstein

You forgot the image again friend.

Woops, forgot the image
Buddhist India by TW Rhys Davids is also great if you want to learn the history of Buddhism at its earliest inception, but pic related goes over all the later schools too

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see:
also pic related

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thx gents. it's outrageous how much stuff there is to read, no? i had a similar feeling when i started reading into Hindu stuff, there are just these huge numbers of books, and they're all like super-densely printed and 800+ pages long. the Yogis really, *really* seem to love talking about their stuff, and exhaustively...they just keep going!

kek. it's honestly a pretty great feel, i'm absolutely fucking exhausted with continental stuff and ready to move on to something else completely, so it's like unlocking a whole new continent in the big game. really wonderful stuff, and this time i hope i to take a kind of a different attitude, not scrambling around everywhere in a race to Know Everything to be able to keep up with...a complete dumpster fire?

ah lads. too good. thanks all for the recommendations, this is really wonderful! Yea Forums is indeed the bestest and noblest of boards, the true board, not false, and all this.

oh wow, this looks great. yeehaw! ty kindly user!

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Thank you friend. I appreciate the help. I am currently reading a history of theravada buddhism, but want to keep myself openminded enough to read Mahayana as well.

One thing that is quite nice about Buddhism IMO in comparison to a lot of philosophy is that it is not just dealing with abstract concepts: it is a practice to be lived.
Relevant image

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That's perfect because Kalupahana is known for urging even Theravadins to keep an open mind regarding Mahayana texts.
My only gripe with Kalupahana is that he is definitely an academic and not a full Buddhist practitioner, so his translations of some things can be weird sometimes.
I suppose this is a good thing in a way though, since he has no obvious sectarian biases due to his approach as a historian first and foremost.

I have a friend who practices Zen/Pure Land Buddhism, while I am still trying to find my legs on the path. At this point I am still investigating the early texts of Buddhism while keeping an open mind about the idea of Boddhisattvas and Amitabha. That is why I am looking for Mahayana texts, and looking for good books on Zen and Pureland.

That history book I sent will be perfect then. It details all the developments of Buddhism and Buddhist thought from Mahayana to Zen to Tantra, up til about 500 years ago, so what you're looking to learn about will be in there.
On a side note, if you're curious about reading some Zen stuff for your own practice, I recommend the Diamond Sutra, Platform Sutra and the Record of Linji (all three of which have been recommended on here already). Nagarjuna is also obviously very important to Mahayana, and so Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way is great as well.

Thank you again for the information. May you be free from suffering and may you find happiness.

May you be free from suffering as well, friend.
I should also mention that the Buddhist history book I sent cites the foundational texts of each sect/school it covers, and pretty much gives pointers on what to read depending on what you're interested in.
If you could only read two books on Buddhist history, I'd recommend that one and Buddhist India.

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if you really crave after not crave, you end in a state of stop from craving, i promise you.
>religions still scamming innocent people after all this years.

question: how is that meaningful
answer: experience is meaningful pal, you should feeling fine just living the moment, huh?...
question: and how is that meaningful?
answer: you just dont understand. you need to meditate more.
in an occidental view: you need therapy. you need pills.

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I think I failed to get across what I was actually going for. His question seemed to imply that realizing the voidness of experience would somehow make life meaningless or nihilistic, but that is not true. That is why I sent that image.
I also think it is important to clarify a few misunderstandings here. Buddhism concerns itself ultimately with the cessation of suffering. The entire Buddhist path is predicated on that aim: the cessation of suffering. The cessation of suffering is where Buddhism pulls all its values from, ie something is "good" or "skillful" if it is conducive to the cessation of suffering. It does not posit an ultimate universal meaning for everyone, it does not prescribe to you the meaning of life because the Buddha said so, it just says "this is suffering and this is the path to the cessation of suffering." Second, the idea that "Buddhism is just giving up desire" is not true. Desire is a rough translation. It is not desire in the colloquial sense that is let go of, but a very subtle process of attachment and craving. Attachment to the aggregates (form, sensations, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness) as "self," or as having a lasting permanent essence, or viewing anything in transitory experience as being capable of providing lasting satisfaction, is dropped.
As for "how do you stop desiring by desiring not to desire" (again this is still a very rough approximation of what is meant by the cause of suffering), I will say that the path to the unconditioned is conditioned, and the path to the transcendent is mundane.

anyone else here have a problem with falling asleep during meditation?

That's an incredibly common issue when people first start out, so I doubt it's just you.
Here:
Once the Exalted One spoke to the Venerable Maha-Moggallana thus: "Are you drowsy, Moggallana? Are you drowsy, Moggallana?" — "Yes, venerable sir."

(1) "Well then, Moggallana, at whatever thought torpor has befallen you, to that thought you should not give attention, you should not dwell on it frequently. Then it is possible that, by so doing, torpor will disappear.

(2) "But if, by so doing, that torpor does not disappear, you should think and reflect within your mind about the Dhamma as you have heard and learned it, and you should mentally review it. Then it is possible that, by so doing, torpor will disappear.

(3) "But if, by so doing, that torpor does not disappear, you should learn by heart the Dhamma in its fullness, as you have heard and learned it. Then it is possible...

(4) "But if, by so doing, that torpor does not disappear, you should shake your ears, and rub your limbs with the palm of your hand. Then it is possible...

(5) "But if, by so doing, that torpor does not disappear, you should get up from your seat, and after washing your eyes with water, you should look around in all directions and look upwards to the stars in the sky. Then it is possible...

(6) "But if, by so doing, that torpor does not disappear, you should firmly establish the (inner) perception of light: as it is by day, so also by night; as it is by night, so also by day. Thus with a mind clear and unobstructed, you should develop a consciousness which is full of brightness. Then it is possible...

(7) "But if, by so doing, that torpor does not disappear, you should, conscious of that which is before and behind, walk up and down, with your senses turned inwards, with your mind not going outwards. Then it is possible...

(8) "But if, by so doing, that torpor does not disappear, you may lie down on your right side, taking up the lion's posture, covering foot with foot — mindful, clearly conscious, keeping in mind the thought of rising. Having awakened again, you should quickly rise, thinking: 'I won't indulge in the enjoyment of lying down and reclining, in the enjoyment of sleep!'

"Thus, Moggallana, you should train yourself!"

— AN 7:58

in my experience it helps to:
- Stay vigilant of your mind when it begins to get drowsy, and wake it up by tensing all your muscles in your body and holding them that way for about 10 seconds, then releasing
- Splash your eyes with water once you start feeling too drowsy and you can't deal with it any other way
- Switch to walking meditation for the time being
- Switch to a more insight-oriented noting practice instead of samatha/one-pointed concentration
>"At such times, monks, as the mind is sluggish, that is the wrong time to cultivate the enlightenment-factor[1] of tranquillity, the enlightenment-factor of concentration, the enlightenment-factor of equanimity. What is the reason? A sluggish mind is hard to arouse by these factors.

>"Suppose a man wants to make a small fire blaze. If he heaps wet grass, wet cow-dung and wet sticks on it, if he exposes it to wind and rain and sprinkles it with dust, can he make that small fire blaze?"

>"No indeed, Lord."

>"Just so, when the mind is sluggish it is the wrong time to cultivate the enlightenment-factors of tranquillity, concentration and equanimity, because a sluggish mind is hard to arouse through these factors.

>"But, monks, when the mind is sluggish, that is the right time to cultivate the enlightenment-factor of investigation-of-states, the enlightenment-factor of energy, the enlightenment-factor of rapture.[2] What is the reason? A sluggish mind is easy to arouse by these factors.

>"Suppose a man wants to make a small fire blaze. If he heaps dry grass, dry cow-dung and dry sticks on it, blows on it with his mouth, and does not sprinkle it with dust, can he make that fire blaze?"

>"Yes indeed, Lord."

>"... a sluggish mind is easy to arouse through these factors.
- SN 46.53

- you could also avoid eating right before doing sitting meditation, and opt for doing walking meditation after you just ate (if you are in fact meditating shortly after meals)
- You could hold your breath for as long as you can manage, forcing your body to produce a charged panic-reaction due to the lack of incoming breath, this might wake you up
That's all I got off the top of my head. Read more of that sutta if you're interested:

accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn46/sn46.053.wlsh.html

>"If that's so, Master Ananda, then it's an endless path, and not one with an end, for it's impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire."

>"In that case, brahman, let me question you on this matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: Didn't you first have desire, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular desire allayed?"

>"Yes, sir."

>"Didn't you first have persistence, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular persistence allayed?"

>"Yes, sir."

>"Didn't you first have the intent, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular intent allayed?"

">Yes, sir."

>"Didn't you first have [an act of] discrimination, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular act of discrimination allayed?"

>"Yes, sir."

>"So it is with an arahant whose mental effluents are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis. Whatever desire he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed. Whatever persistence he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular persistence is allayed. Whatever intent he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular intent is allayed. Whatever discrimination he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular discrimination is allayed. So what do you think, brahman? Is this an endless path, or one with an end?"

>"You're right, Master Ananda. This is a path with an end, and not an endless one."
- SN 51.15

I thought Transcendental Meditation was completely unrelated to Buddhism, and was moreso a repackaging of Vedic mantra meditation sold by Maharishi

>imply that realizing the voidness of experience would somehow make life meaningless or nihilistic, but that is not true.
is the same true that imply you can attain ilumination and stop the karmic wheel and end all suffering if you realize it.
>transcendent is mundane.
is only about "end of suffering" is not like buddhism is something transcendent or something like that.

hey friendo, people are stupid making stupid remarks like that. if you want to cease to crave you just cease to crave. whatever... people are stupid, who cares if you start craving in first place?. fucking retarded. what cares here is that you dont crave anymore in the end huh?.
dont question meaningless shit like that anymore, ok?.
>and who is released through right gnosis.
friendly reminder that you are following a narrow religion path without even realizing it.

if you think im only criticizing and shitposting my point is that buddhism is just a religion and a promise, a lie, like everything in the world.
imagine a guy telling you shoothing heroin is the real end of suffering. something like that, in that level of folly and happy goodwill. they made of a natural state of the mind (realizing everything is in the mind, more or less) a total circle religion, they overuse it. the budhist think is a trick to attain something, and is not. they made up everything.
all is a mystery, outside and inside.

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How does it so succumb user?

why even get rid of them?
but, to answer your question, i think it depends on the schools, some are rather hedonistic, others are more serious about it.

It's so funny observing how the profane think, can literally only think within the context of space and time.

you're so detached from reality you couldn't even see the bait. time to get back to temporality

Bhuddism promises to free you from the control of the three poisons: confusion, attachment and aversion.
By systematically meditating you can become deeply aware of all your hidden pains and joys.
Once you are so aware of the poisons then you can start to disentangle yourself from these and reach a state of mental clarity.
And once you begin to disentangle yourself then you can really clearly think about what you actually want to do in life and your problems become much easier to solve or turn out not to be problems at all.

I really recommend retreats - reading is 10%.

Through attaining meditative joy that will replace need for desires right now and permanently through attaining enlightenment.

Laughed so hard I pinched another one off

what earthly desires?

if you eat too much junk eat clean and count calories

if you watch porn? dont watcht it, do nofap or hightest fap

>life denying

Lol does buddhism ever say that you have to/should deny life? Or are you just parroting memes like everyone else?

Read Paul's epistle to the Romans, if you haven't, and probably also if you have. He's got a lot to say about what he calls "the flesh," which is the desire for destructive things, i.e. "sinful desires." I think the church has misunderstood the New Testament as a reiteration of the "try to fight your will to do bad stuff" MO of the Mosaic Law, when Paul was actually announcing humanity's freedom from the sinful nature. Ever since I understood the grace of the cross and union with God as it's described specifically in Romans 6, 7, and 8, I've had a really instant change in my will and desires. I don't even jerk off anymore. We've all been brought into the "Divine nature" as Peter calls it, and been freed from the law of sin and death, which means Christ's nature dwelling in us, and the sinful nature having been nailed to the cross with Christ.

Also, Colossians 2:9-12. Paul was onto some shit.

Eh idk about this advice.

>alcoholic recognizes his problem and wants to stop drinking.
>new years resolution:dont drink alcohol for a whole year.
>now has to worry for 365 days, everyday, to not drink alcohol.

If that doesnt click with you, think about how the "everyone SHOULD exercise" phenomenom.

I gotta start exercising for my health/looks/so i can be more productive etc.
Most ppl dont stick out exercising consistently because they put this limit on themselves.

Basically

Aversion = desire.

Based quads.
I stopped jerking off since I started praying the rosary. It really helps weakening your flesh desires and identifying your own subtle sins.

Anything can be your guru, but Buddhism is one of the poorer choices, since people have expectations that it will be their guru.

>expectations
what if i have no expectations

More like it's better not to start if you don't intend to see it through all the way because otherwise you run the risk of becoming stuck a single particular state, and this can be detrimental since it can sometimes be powerful stuff. There was even a point in history where there was problem of monks committing suicide, which I heard prompted the revision of certain methods of practice.

dude just read bataille and become and ascetic. Pleasure and pain combined to lose oneself into the ultimate orgasmic ecstasy. No but seriously Bataille was pretty fucked up if IIRC the guy wanted to be sacrificed to feel the ultimate pain and pleasure and ecstasy and release. fucking based

I understand this why you must find solutions

when i wanted to eat healthy i made my desires worst eating junk then i discovered calories and saw everything as units of energy and have abousetly 0 cravings for junk

the general 'fight the desire' will make things worst for some, you have to find a solution for your problem , there exists one, find it conquer it and tackle the next problem

Have a read my dude, I read some buddhist works in my teens and it changed my life somewhat. I’ve fallen off the path now in my mid 20s so I should get back to reading and pull myself back on the path

Read Plato and Plotinus you indo-cuck

Monks committed suicide after improperly doing Asubha meditation, contemplation of the body, where the goal is to uproot lust with regards to the physical form (this is pretty much a necessity for monks so that they can be celibate without having to repress anything). They got so revolted by their own bodies that they offed themselves. When the Buddha heard of this he had to clarify the actual instructions of the meditation.

Check out this chart, user:

Yep that's exactly what I remember hearing now.