What's the consensus on this? Does it blow Tolkien the fuck out?

What's the consensus on this? Does it blow Tolkien the fuck out?

>Tolkien got the main symbols in The Hobbit from Richard Wagner’s Ring cycle, but he was testy and sensitive whenever Wagner’s name was mentioned. The problem was Wagner’s anti-Semitism. The English had a long history of philo-Semitism that did not mesh with Wagner’s views, leading to an artistic conflict that Tolkien could not resolve, and ultimately to an incoherent book. In purging Wagner’s symbols of their anti-Semitism, Tolkien purged them of their meaning as well, for the real issue in Wagner’s Das Rheingold is capitalism, not anti-Semitism. And if Capitalism is the real issue, England must be the villain, which is unacceptable to Tolkien, an English patriot. Once rearranged to suit English sensibilities, though, those symbols lose their power, meaning, and coherence. After reading renowned cultural critic E. Michael Jones’s intellectual tour de force, you’ll never view Tolkien’s saga the same.

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Nobody cares. He wasted his time writing that. People will still enjoy lotr

Alright, I'm interested.
What's Das Rheingold's plot to do with capitalism and and Jews?

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>People will still enjoy lotr
the intent isn't to get dummies to wake up but to prove it's shit and we should look down on people who like it.

>He wasted his time writing that.
Didn't waste much time, it's only like a 40 page article or something and not a book. I can't find a copy online and am too cheap to buy it so I'm actually curious how much merit people think it has. The amazon description is intriguing.

From the description seems truly dreadful. This assumes lord of the rings fails to deliver on a major anti-capitalist theme, bound as it is with major structural components of das rheingold, but lotr doesn't fail at this, it just isn't antisemitic -- rather explicitly it's anti-industrial. This book seems like really dishonest work: claiming anti capitalist themes require one to be antisemitic is just foolish.

This. I don't understand how you can read LOTR and not see the anti-capitalist and anti-industrialist message. Mordor and Isengard have strong capitalist undercurrents, Isengard particularly so. Saruman's basically a money-grubbing CEO.

I too have not read this, but I agree with most of your critique of the description.
LOTR is a celebration of friendship, and the tropes of camaraderie, loyalty, and the rest of the myth of moral and ethical behavior. Whether a critique of industrialization, I didn't get that, except as a furtherance of some natural philosophy that engenders both a worship of the environment along with a natural brotherly tribalism.

Still, personally, just more platonic and sophistic nonsense meant to distract from a better story of how stuff works... Things work because they work, not because we love each other, and are rewarded for good honorable behavior...

>Tolkien got the main symbols in The Hobbit from Richard Wagner’s Ring cycle
Stopped reading. Tolkien himself denied this, he took inspiration from the myth itself

Somebody spend a dollar and 15 minutes reading the thing instead of just claiming the description doesn't line up with your interpretation (of course it doesn't because this is obviously a hot take)

i disagree, LotR is very low-key anti-semitic, if viewed from a certain perspective.
it can be asked "why wasn't Tolkien more explicit with his anti-semitism, if his intent was to be anti-semitic?" The answer is already stated by OP: viz. that England is/was philo-semitic and Tolkien didn't want to get in trouble by being too blunt with his pen.

so what is the certain perspective in which LotR is anti-semitic?

Dwarves were created by Aule. (pronounced Owl)
the Moloch Owl, like the one at Bohemian Grove.
Dwarves live in caves, orcs live in caves.
the only difference between a dwarf cave and an orc/dragon/balrog cave is the time period.
the cave starts out as a Dwarf cave, then they get greedier and greedier, slowly becoming orcs/dragons/demonic balrog.
Aule IS Melkor. Melkor IS Aule. (Ace Ventura starts gagging). Saturn is lord of this realm, Saturn of the rings, Sauron the Lord of the Rings, the Lord of This Realm.
Melkor and Aule even have the exact same power (viz. over the physical realm)
Tolkien was warning us about (((them))) as subtly as he could, because even back then (((they))) were known for killing people that stood up to them (just read about the Jewish terror attacks that took place during the 1800- early 1900's time period).
here's some more symbolism: the Jewish Tree of Life is represented by Aule's wife, Yavanna. The Two Trees of Valinor represent quite nicely the Two Trees of the Qabbalah, the As Above (Laurelin) and the So Below (Telperion)
Yavanna also had marital problems with her husband Owl/Aule, because Aule's dwarves/orcs had no respect for plants or animals, and cared only about gold and wealth. (Aule shows signs of similarities with Melkor)

The Valar had the ability to shapeshift, Melkor was just Aule's alter-ego, the shape he assumed when dealing with evil people, while his Aule-form was the facade he presented to good, but rather naive people.
You know, like Sauron/Annatar. Or like Palpatine/Darth Sidious, Grindelwald/Whatever-his-name-was that he shapeshifted into to hide his true identity.

ree of Life, you know, the thing the kabbalist Jews are OBSESSED over, is a tree that the jews represent with their 7 branched candelabra.
Just like Sauron gave Dwarves 7 rings.

>ree of Life
Tree of Life*

Aryan god is a god of storm/thunder/sky.
Manwe is a god of storm/thunder/sky.
Melkor is a god of the physical realm (Tolkien described it best: "Sauron's ring was a ring of gold to ensnare the Will of the user to his own, in that sense, Morgoth's "Ring" would be Middle Earth/Arda itself." (or something to that effect.)
in that sense, when Valinor left the confines of Arda after the downfall of Numenor/Atlantis/(Babel?), it was removed from the realm that was under Melkor's control, viz. the physical realm.
By doing this, they essentially took the visible representation of "good" from the world of Man, and separated it from evil. It now only exists as an idea, as dreams.
the duality of Idea/physical, white vs black, sky vs metal/rock, Manwe/Valinor vs. Melkor/Utumno/Middle Earth, Heaven vs. Babel.
Last time, Valinor destroyed Angband. Before that, they destroyed Utumno. Each time it caused horrendous damage to the planet, breaking apart continents, huge portions falling underneath the waves, peoples sundered by natural disasters, forever after estranged from each other.
and back to sauron. the One Ring itself was (if you reduce it down to it's purely observable properties, and less upon it's speculative/magical properties) nothing more than a gold ring. Just that, gold.
But its magical properties could best be described symbolically (and symbolism and magic grimoires do tend to go hand in hand). so, for instance it could makes its user invisible to the average eye (there are still people that can sense it though, usually people with heightened attunement to the spiritual/otherworldly realm, like Sauron, the Nazgul, even some elves or maiar perhaps.
So, just like irl, how gold/wealth gives one the power to essentially make urself invisible, and to operate from behind the curtain (wiz of oz), from the shadows, to create a false persona of yourself with the facade of goodness, like Annatar (or Aule?)....
in this sense, then, Frodo's quest to destroy the One Ring (and all the other rings too) is to end Wealth, to end Greed, and all the benefits that come with it, all the good and bad side effects that come with it.
the destruction of the One Ring and the Nine (and the 7 for that matter) destroy the obvious bad magic they had been put to, but also the good benefits that the 3 rings offered.

wtf i hate tolkien now

Jesus..

These anti-Semites can find justification in anything:
"The phone book STARTS with (((Aaron)))!"

i admit, it's a stretch, but there is a sort of pattern, but i don't think it's source is ultimately rooted in anti-semitism, but rather in mythology and archetypes.
I don't think Tolkien was anti-semitic, but neither do i think that he thought that Jews were perfect (after all, Tolkien wrote that even the Dwarves sometimes served within the ranks of Melkor's armies, and that the only Dwarven clans not to were the Dwarves of Khazad-dum).
Tolkien held more to a viewpoint that anyone could succumb to evil, even the wisest and best of us.
Orcs are not, in that sense, a race, but rather a type (in this case, "criminal" type), and can be of any race, religion or creed.

Another idea I've had about the possible meaning/intent of the Orc race (as intended by Tolkien) is that they represent a Canaanite type (since Tolkien was known to have an interest in biblical themes), as opposed to the Hebrew-"elves".
but i dropped that theory once i jumped on the "Dwarves are actually Jews, according to Tolkien" bandwagon. I'm still not entirely sold on that viewpoint, though i admit there are patterns that would suggest it were 100% true.

Are we supposed to read this in Alex Jones voice? It’s stupid.

Dwarves may be jews, but dwarves are not orcs and Aule is not Melkor

JRRT liked Jews, their whole mythos. Read the Silmarillian

I have read Silmarillion, I still say there is a lot of Kabbalah/gnostic references in his writings, in addition to Nordic myth, Biblical/Torah myth, and probably other types of myths too. Tolkien studied myths for a living, so while he may have preferred one over the other (Nordic/Germanic, seems to be the popular opinion), that doesn't mean he didn't include others. You yourself said he admire the Hebrew myth, and many Jews read the Kabbalah, which is similar (if not identical) to gnosticism in many ways.

Btw, I've seen enough people disagree over "what Tolkien REALLY meant", so why should your opinion matter to me? Oh, because you have a butterfly symbol?

For all we know, the Orcs could represent Muslims. Orcs were once Elves, just as Muslims (at least, the Sunni variety) were once from the same stock as Jews (Semites).

Btw, am I supposed to read your post in ContraPoints lispy voice?

>Dwarves may be jews

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Mmhm. Right , yeah. Uh-hu. Is it really similar?

Well, I be nothing antisemetic out of it. Dwarves look like jews/Hebrews and they come off as okay just a little greedy. You said dwarves turned into orcs, now you recall your Silmaril. Hmmmm
You’re supposed to read my posts in a quiet Bjorky rasp

>I be
*I got

>EMJ
Catholic JBP. No thanks.

Thread is ruined by the zizek marxist raiders

I do not know was Tolkien familiar with European hermeticism or the Hermetic Qabalah, but these facts I've always found interesting in LOTR:

It is Bilbo's 111st birthday when he gives up the Ring to Frodo.
(The Fool Card, which is commonly numbered "Zero" is usually associated with the hebrew letter Aleph in Tarot)
The letter Aleph, spelt in full has the gematria of 111 (Aleph, Lamed, Peh = ALP )

The theme of the Tarot card is usually a man leaving for a dangerous journey without much worry or forethought.

The Fool card is also associated with the Arabic numeral "Zero" or "0"

0 itself is the ring. There are huge bulk of references to the concept of "Zero" in almost every mystical, occult traditions. In the most Mundane aspect, zero could be said to even be the essence of "Fiat Money" for as a concept it forms the basis for the banking system. (It is essentially just a bunch of ones and zeros, just like computing is) so another reference to Wagner’s Das Rheingold perhaps.

Then again, Tolkien's books are quite wholesome, and one may find almost all kinds of symbolism one wants to see; I think it ruins the experience of reading many myths and stories trying to look for a forced, veiled symbolism. Just take Middle-Earth as it is.

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>Tolkien got the main symbols in The Hobbit from Richard Wagner’s Ring cycle,
This first sentence is wrong. Tolkien mainly modeled the ring after the Ring of Gyges. Opinion discarded

i love how you first get offended at the idea that Tolkien is anti-semitic (or me, for that matter) and then say
>Dwarves look like Jews/Hebrews and they come off as a little greedy

Because that isn't an anti-semitic stereotype at all.

And yes, there is a gnostic theme in Silmarillion and his other works. Whether intentional or just a weird coincidence, i have no clue.

I'm okay with Bjork, but only when she's singing wildly, so i'll read your posts in that manner.

interesting, didn't know about that, but it does add just another bullet point in my pet theory.

is E. Michael Jones Irish?

Frodo, in this manner, is a sort of "Everyman", the quintessential Man, the best, most humble and brave of us, all wrapped up into one person. He makes the journey for us, with help from his companions, who are each brave and decent folk in their own right (though perhaps flawed in some way that Frodo has learned to master). Frodo then becomes an Earendil, a divine messenger for humanity, a representative of Fallen/physical Middle Earth, who is sent by his people to Valinor to beg for their divine aid. Just as Earendil braved almost certain death by daring to sail into the west from which they were banished (cf Banishment from Eden), Frodo must not journey into the far East, into Hell (instead of west, into Heaven). He must now make that journey to destroy the Ring, to destroy Gollum, who represent the worst in Frodo, the worst in mankind, the worst of Melkor, as opposed to what he could have been (Aule).

what is clear, however, is that Gollum HAD to die. Gollum, who represents the physical side, the side that can only be destroyed in the forges from which it was made (i.e. the pits of Hell).
Frodo was eventually let into Valinor/Heaven. (which means he was successful in his endeavor)
Frodo's "throwing of the Ring into the pit of lava" (or, rather, Gollum's biting of Frodo's finger and falling into the lava) is then symbolic of Frodo "killing" off that physical/lustful/carnal side of himself. (for an excellent discussion on what it means to "kill off the physical/carnal side", read Schopenhauer's World as Will and Idea. Destroying the Ring is then a killing of the ego, of yourself, your pride, envy, sex drive, ambition, basically becoming a monk/nun that lives up to the name (not to be confused with the modern day variety that keep ending up in the news over scandals). To be a monk/nun without feeling the need to shout to the world that you're a monk/nun, to do it for yourself and for you alone, or for God, "to pray behind closed doors, and not with loud exclamations in the market place for all to see" (Jesus Christ quote).
To become like Tom Bombadil, basically, unknown to the world, unconcerned with the world and its coming and goings.

Which makes me think Tolkien was into hermetism, or gnosticism, free-masonry, or something like that, because don't the masons have a hand sign they make where it looks like they're missing two fingers from their hand? (they disguise this by putting the "missing" fingers in their coats, and there's also a reference to this whenever Bilbo or Frodo "looks for the Ring" in the pocket.

>must not
must now*

>intellectual tour de force

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Is industrialisation synonymous with capitalism?

Okay but what was Saurons tax policy?

seeeething envious brainlet time

>>Aule is Melkor
What the fuck man

25 July 1938
20 Northmoor Road, Oxford

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.

I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and

remain yours faithfully,

J. R. R. Tolkien

>I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride
meaning that even Tolkien would succumb to SJW pressure against white people, German people, or whatever people happen to be in the crosshairs of the SJW crowd.

Yea

That'll do it.

Aule is not pronounced like that

says you, and you're not my mama.

>t. didn't read the pronunciation guide in the silmarilion

looking at it right now.
page 310 of second edition paperback. (pic related).

>AU has the value of English *ow* in *town*; thus the first syllable of Aulë is like English *owl*, and the first syllable of *Sauron* is like English *sour*, not *sore*.
i win :)

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based schizoposter

Imagine this level of reading comprehension

lol, yea, i know, it's a "way out in left field" theory. Someone else posted an infographic a while back saying how Dwarves were actually behind the Orc invasions. It spawned from the OrcPosting memes on /pol/ I think.
At the time I was reading some hermetic book, or else just reading about the subject on webpages, a lot about their symbolism (their fascination with owls, snakes, etc.)
I *think* the orcpost meme that I originally read was meant as a joke (at least, that's how I read it as), and my "pet theory" evolved as a joke too (at least from my point of view). Don't you ever entertain ideas and see where they lead you, just for the fun of it?

by all means, debunk my theory. but it's really no more ridiculous than some of the other ideas people have popularized (e.g. Sauron=Hitler, Orc=Nazis, Tom Bombadil = Eru, or Manwe, LotR is heavily influenced by Christian ideals, even though the pantheon of the Ainur resembles more Nordic or Greek polytheism, or a fusion of it with monotheism -under Eru- etc.)
And if you admit that it's based on Christian themes, then which specific brand of Christianity? Catholic? Protestant? Gnostic? All? Or only one?
And if you can admit of Gnostic Christianity, then at that moment my theory isn't so implausible anymore.

>Aule has an e at the end. Owl-e is NOTHING like Owl
Imagine this level of reading comprehension.

Not necessarily, although it's possible to associate Tolkien's lament of the industrialisation of Britain with the broader capitalist/imperialist context which it took place

Then again Tolkien was a lifelong traditional Catholic, so he's hardly the most left-wing figure out there