Damn universities

It entails taking a giant shit and smearing it all over Homer and every Greek who ever lived. See the translation excerpts.

literally who cares? Wilson's rendition is easy to read, why not assign it for fast paced college classes where you have to shove several books into ten weeks?

Not surprising. But worth talking about.

Because it's dogshit and so is your post.

1. It's ideological feminist nonsense
2. Universities should not be teaching slimmed-down crap. We don't teach modernized Shakespeare.

yes, I agree, the Odyssey is dogshit, but how is that relevant?
it's not even feminist, and yes we do teach modernized Shakespeare, since it's already modernized (do you read him with all the long s's?)

We can discard your opinions then and continue the thread.

Get fucked you slimy cunt. The translation and its adoption en masse, despite it's lack of quality, is blatantly ideologically motivated. kirkcenter.org/reviews/a-coat-of-varnish/

" And last fall, her decidedly feminist and modern take on the classic text, published in 2017, was added to Columbia’s Core Curriculum..."
This translation is feminist.
I have a public school education, and we read the original Shakespeare.

It is feminist and she outright bills it as such, this is not up for debate. It's not an accusation it's the intention of the translator. If you agree that this translation is shit then obviously you realize that we should use a translation that is not shit. Why are you even posting if you recognize that this translation is shit?

you could try telling me why my opinions aren't worthy of discussion instead of being flippant
appeals to authority, give it to me in your own words, like this user did
she failed to make it feminist. her intentions are irrelevant the same way that a cook's intentions are irrelevant when they make the food wrong. also, can you name a translation of higher quality that is as convenient for a short class?

>Wilson also lapses into bizarre circumlocutions around the story of the Cyclops. Homer describes Polyphemus, who eats six of Odysseus’s men raw, as “athemistos”—literally something like “without a sense of divine right or wrong,” but “lawless” usually does the job in English. Lack of respect for themis, true right and wrong, is posited by Homer’s contemporary Hesiod as the cause of all human evil. Wilson, however, decides in her introduction that the story of the Cyclops is really a story about colonialism (“the Polyphemus episode seems to meditate uneasily on the processes of colonization”), and hence it is her duty to resist any tendency to dehumanize the sixty-foot-tall, one-eyed, flesh-eating son of the sea-god. She translates athemistos as “maverick,” an offense not only against sensibility, but also against the aesthetics of her poem—the word leaps off the page, wildly inappropriate to Wilson’s typical register. Needless to say I just about fell over laughing. And huperphialos, which she is happy to render “insolent” and “arrogant” when it comes to the suitors, she changes to “highminded” for Polyphemus. The sight of drunk Polyphemus vomiting up wine and chunks of human flesh in his cave was not enough to get Wilson to shy away from calling him “highminded.” I suppose ideology is not dead. She also uses the odd circumlocution “the Cyclopic people” for the Greek plural Cyclopes, which also jars. The shame of all this is that it subverts her own thesis: she claims the passage has some relevance to colonization. It’s much easier for a student to see the resonance between this episode and Kipling’s “lesser breeds without the Law” if athemistos is translated “lawless.” But as I have said, it is very hard to do any kind of close reading of Homer using Wilson’s translation alone. It simply is not faithful enough.

I'm citing the words of the university that is teaching it, as it is not unreasonable to assume that the translator and her employers understand what they are doing.

The only ideology a translator should be beholden to is that which demands the translator to be faithful to the intentions of the author. Emily Wilson can get fucked.

>words of the university, not a direct quote from the translator, so too indirect
>she works there, so she has connections, so her delusion that her translation is actually feminist influences them, so too direct
worst of both worlds

Enlighten me. If it's not feminist, what is it?
How are you defining "feminism?"
Even if we call it a failed attempt at a feminist translation, that doesn't make it a good translation.

Wasn’t the odyssey already pretty feminist?

it's tumblr pop-feminism, more objectively described as corrective misandry. feminism must be in support of equal regard for the sexes; she goes to far and ends up in "fuck men" land

>its not REAL feminism

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Ideologies are processes not steady-states, user. Tumblr feminism IS real feminism.

so what if my painter friend made a really good portrait and I made a very shitty copy of it in my own inexperience and tried to say
>NO TRUE SCOTSMAN FALLACY, IT IS THE REAL PAINTING :((((

No matter how bad it is it can’t be much worse than the average translation. Actually a translation by a woman should be better since the Odyssey was written by a woman in the first place

i enjoyed wilson's translation

she had a bias, sure, but so has everyone else who translated it. it's not fagles existed in a perfectly neutral society devoid of any sort of gender politics which would have influenced a translation.

Emily Wilson

you lot should read this thread from her twitter

twitter.com/EmilyRCWilson/status/980803049961730050

Revisioning the Western Canon. Basically cultural genocide. Harold Bloom did warn us about this back in the day. This is the beginning of the end, bros. I'm not joking.

2/10 bait.

this shows way more understanding and time spent studying the material than anything ive ever seen posted here

>Who cares just let me do it, it's not even a big deal :^)

People have been saying this for over a century

What?

The authoress of the Odyssey

Speaking of translations, I want to read Don Quixote, but my library only has the Smollett translation. Should that be sufficient?

well she is actually a classicist, with a degree from oxford

there’s probably something to be said about the fact she’s only ever described as a feminist

fair point
>cultural genocide
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
did I say her translation is good? what's your point?
Spanish isn't even that hard you fucking faggot

>HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

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copying out the encyclopedia britannica isn’t that hard either but it’s a bit time consuming know what i mean

Even under your definition the nature of feminism depends on your perception and interpretation of the concept of equality. Most healthy individuals including the vast majority of women think of equality in terms of equality before the law. But that's not at all what mainstream feminism believes; here the view is that inequality of outcome demonstrates the need for affirmative action on the behalf of women. Around this notion it has built up the ideological framework of the patriarchy which describes the eternal battle between gender groups. Obviously that leads right into 'fuck men' land. Also, since equality before the law has already been achieved the actual movenment is gone. Instead we have capital driven workplace integration and revolutionary intersectional feminism. It is as in the case of mass migration the interesting alliance between concentrated capital and left-wing radicalism. So I don't see genuine feminism as a real world phenomenon (at least in the west), which explains things like enthusiastic support for muslim immigration which in France for example will soon lead to things like the abolition of abortion.

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>equality before the law has already been achieved
lol

SNEED
FUCK AND SUCKKKKKKK

I believe your definition of feminism is too narrow. While feminism should be how you describe it, there are a number of misandrist strains within feminism

You can just cite the laws which do not offer protection to women.

I agree
-OP

>Tell me about a complicated man.

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he cute

feminism is about equality and always has been. if you don't see that, you've watched too many "FEMINIST OWNED WITH FACTS AND LOGIC" videos
>spoonfeed me
that's actually the best line in the translation desu

they'd both be paintings in the same style. of course since that style is shit to begin with, whether yours is just a copy or not is pretty inconsequential

>since that style is shit to begin with
how is the quality of the painting even relevant? that wasn't even remotely the point

>having to back up your bullshit claims with actual proof is spoonfeeding

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>spoonfeed me

Feminism started that way. Now most people that are solely egalitarian don't describe themselves as feminists, and those who do describe themselves as feminist are not egalitarian.

But we are bickering over semantics. If you would rather call this a pseudo-feminist translation, fine. My point remains.

I am not conceding, for the record--I just don't want to waste your time or mine squabbling over whether she is or is not a "true feminist"

feminism is trash, whether this particular translation fits your opinion of "good" feminism or whatever the hell really says nothing of the fact that a college pushing for historical revisionism in the name of feminism is something that should be opposed

>I have no proof because I am wrong

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So you literally have no example to cite. And of course you don't. None of the feminist orgs are doing that instead they're pointing to statistical inequalities the sources of which usually are inherent biological differences. It's the same as in left-wing racial agitation.

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that's fine enough
the only part of what you just said that I disagree with is "feminism is trash"
>spoonfeed me

alright have a nice day/evening.

>the only part of what you just said that I disagree with is "feminism is trash"
You can disagree with the statement "feminism is trash" but you're factually wrong in doing so.

you too, user
>believing that a system of morality can be declared objectively correct or incorrect

Where is this quote from?

This is mutilation of art. This person is altering it for their own purposes. This is not translation, it is coopting.

I've never said that, what I've said is that it is factually proven that feminism is trash, and that if you disagree with this then you are wrong.

well she reckons homer was a feminist

>The Odyssey is dogshit

Opinion discarded

Goodbye

>can you name a translation of higher quality that is as convenient for a short class?
Richmond Lattimore's.

>feminism is a system of morality, and I'm calling it objectively shit, but I never said that a system of morality can be objectively shit!!1!!11!1!!1!!!!1!1!
goodbye

thanks, I'll go read this. if it impresses me, I'll stop supporting Wilson in any way, shape, or form

I'm not sure what you're trying to say anymore, but I'll take this as you agreeing that feminism is trash? It's factually proven user.

>he hasn't given any factual proof, I haven't given any sign of agreement
>"SO YOU AGREE RIGHT??¿?¿¿¿???¿??"
lol, 8/10 bait, you actually had me going for a bit

You've been ignoring what I've said and misquoted me. It should go without saying, but I'll say it again just for you: there is substantial proof that "feminism is trash" and if you disagree you are factually wrong. You're free to disagree, but by doing so you're admitting that you're not longer basing your arguments on logic and at that point what's even the point of posting here?

It's a quote from the translator in the article cited at the top

not him but what? all poets are feminist really

>Just be quiet and let me do what i want

that said poets certainly don’t use logic

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holy shit, you're playing 4D fucking chess right now. I have four options here:
1.) I ask for the proof, which would be spoonfeeding, which I have been decrying for the last thirty minutes now, outing me being a hypocrite. not an option
2.) I continue replying, trying to disagree with you, but you keep replying with "it's been factually proven," which I can't elaborate on without going to option 1. more tolerable, but still bad due to it leading nowhere
3.) I ignore you, which is looking more attractive by the second
4.) I leave the thread. I'm having too much fun to do that though, so it's not an option
honestly, good job, this is a borderline Xanatos gambit, I almost fell for option 1. 9/10, never speak to me again
>as if he's not saying the same thing

Well I'm glad we could come to the agreement that feminism is trash. And don't worry, I plan on sticking around this thread

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I think you replied to the wrong user

obviously meant for

>So delightful is Wilson’s verse, and so easy is it to read, that one gets through quite a number of pages before the vague sense that something is wrong begins to settle in. Can Homer really be this easy to read? What could have been wrong with all the other translators, that none of them could put together anything so readable as this? I had spent a summer in Greece while in college, travelling with a Greek text of the Odyssey, and I remembered in particular Odysseus’s final journey to Ithaca (the beginning of book 13; well worth revisiting as a specimen of Homeric narrative), the poetic effect of which overwhelmed me. Odysseus climbs aboard the ship and—forgive my literal translation—lies down, “in silence,”
>>and upon him sweet sleep fell upon his eyelids, unawakening sleep, most pleasurable, most like unto death
>In Greek the internal rhymes are especially beautiful, and draw attention to the line: “negretos, hedistos, thanato anchista eoikos.” And as a concept it was striking to a young man: I was of the modern school who believed sleep a waste of time: I could be doing something during those hours. What was Homer talking about? Could sleep be good? And who of the moderns, who among all people of all time fear and obscure death the most, could possibly describe anything as “most pleasurable, most like unto death”? Later, reading the story of Cleobis and Biton in Herodotus I found the same kind of open love affair with death. This is the kind of thing that makes these messengers from other ages so wonderful: not all people have been trapped in the same thought-boxes modern people are. And yet in Wilson’s translation the passage seems reduced, deficient somehow, so trite as to be unnoticeable:
>>A sound sweet sleep fell on his eyes, like death; he did not stir. (13.80–81)
>The idea is there, but all the lingering emphasis in the original has been smoothed away. This, too, unfortunately, is typical of the whole.

>I have said that Wilson’s translation reads easily, and it does, like a modern novel: at shockingly few points does one ever need to stop and think. There are no hard parts; no difficult lines or obscure notions; no aesthetic arrest either; very little that jumps out as unusual or different. Wilson has set out, as she openly confesses, to produce an Odyssey in a “contemporary Anglophone speech,” and this results in quite a bit of conceptual pruning. If you wait for the “Homeric tags,” the phrases that contained so much Greek culture they have been quoted over and over again by Greeks ever since—well, you are apt to miss them as they go by. A famous one occurs in book 24, when Odysseus and Telemachus are about to go into battle together: Odysseus tells Telemachus not to disgrace him, and Telemachus boasts that he need not fear. Laertes, Odysseus’s father, exclaims (Wilson’s translation), “Ah, gods! A happy day for me! My son and grandson are arguing about how tough they are!”
>This is a famous line, but here it would hardly seem to merit its fame—who cares about people “arguing about how tough they are”? The word here translated as “tough” just happens to be one of the central words of Hellenic thought: arete, “virtue” or “excellence,” that subject of so many subsequent philosophy lectures—whose learnability or unlearnability Plato made the subject of inquiry, and which Aristotle defined as a mean between two vices. The word can be used to mean something like “bravery,” but it is wildly broader and richer than “how tough one is” (there is a queen named Arete in the poem, but Wilson refrains from translating her as “Queen Tough”). The line was quoted over and over again in later days because it was considered the height of happiness for a man to have a son and grandson competing with each other to possess virtue or true excellence. This Wilson suppresses, as a thing irrelevant to contemporary idiom—“toughness” will have to serve in its place.

>Another modern translation for modern times
Ok, put it in the pile

>When Autolycus, the grandfather of Odysseus, is praised as “who surpassed all men in stealing and swearing oaths”—a celebrated juxtaposition, which gets lengthy treatment in the Republic—Wilson apparently finds the phrase too striking, and reduces it to “telling lies and stealing.” Now of course by implication many of those oaths must have been false. But the Greek word orkosmeans “oath,” not lie. But stealing and lying pair easily, while stealing and swearing oaths jar a bit, and so Wilson opts for the easier, less literal version. And this too is typical of her method. She makes it easy on the reader by making all the judgements herself, eliminating ambiguity wherever she sees fit.
>Many a reader has questioned how seriously we are to take the tales of Odysseus’s wanderings—of men turned to pigs and one-eyed giants—when in fact much of the rest of the poem (though hardly all) is fairly realistic. Wilson solves this problem for the reader by introducing the tale of his wanderings in the following way: “wily Odysseus, the lord of lies, answered.” “Lord of lies” is Wilson’s insertion, not reflected in the text, though presumably she is arguing that it is implied in the word polumetis, the most commonly used epithet for Odysseus, whose meaning “wily” or “of many devices” is already in her translation of the line. And while lying is well within the reach of a wily person, there still are some shades of nuance between “wiles” and “lies.”
>But nuance is not what Wilson does, anywhere in this translation. In her translator’s note, she openly proclaims that she will not translate the Homeric epithets consistently, but rather has “chosen deliberately to interpret these epithets in several different ways, depending on the demands of the scene at hand.” This choice of hers is one of the real losses to the fabric of the poem: not only does she consciously sacrifice ambiguity, but she jettisons the Homeric epithet, Homer’s most conspicuous stylistic peculiarity, which she derides in her arrogant translator’s note as “a mark of writerly laziness or unwillingness to acknowledge one’s own interpretive position, and can send a reader to sleep.” In fact I have always found my students appreciated “swift-footed Achilles” and “rosy-fingered dawn” and “the wine-dark sea:” these were not only beautiful on the page, but different from modern writing techniques, and hence interesting. A reader can get through Wilson’s translation without ever learning by experience what a Homeric epithet is.

>some literally who makes a shit translation of a book that has already been translated dozens of times
>genocide
why are right wingers such fucking babies lol

This is idiotic

I know this is petty, but notice that we didn't actually discard my opinions and continue the thread. my argument IS the thread now
that's it, just wanted to point that out to you, have a nice night

It's been going on for centuries. People in the eighteenth century had no qualms about turning the ends of Shakespeare's tragedy into happy ending because they liked it better that way.

Such a change would be welcomed with universal indignation nowadays, yet it was the norm then.

Get over yourself and most importantly get some historical perspective before you pretend talk about the destiny of the Western Canon (a very modern invention btw).

>The best way to get a sense of how pervasive Wilson’s reductive approach is simply to calculate the kind of constraint she set herself. The Odyssey consists of 12,110 lines of dactylic hexameter, with lines between thirteen and seventeen syllables and averaging about fifteen. Wilson also has 12,110 lines, but her line averages ten syllables. And this is the reason why her work reads so much more quickly than any other version: her poem is shorter than the original by a third. This is felt everywhere, first of all as an increase in the poem’s velocity—which I appreciate—and second as a kind of stripping away of everything but the book’s plot—which I felt with increasing distress as I proceeded. In almost every line some kind of nuance is shed. In many ways, her work should be counted as an abridgement of the Odyssey more than a translation per se.

Meanwhile, in the War Nerd prose translation of the Illiad.
>The only reason Paris didn’t drive a Porsche or wear Ray-Bans was because the infrastructure wasn’t there yet. He’d have defected Malibu in a second if the airport had been ready. . .

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>Unfortunately, besides the constraints of space Wilson must have felt, she seems at times specifically bent on reductionistic simplification. Queen Arete is described literally as “honored, as no other woman on earth is honored, of the women who, subject to men, keep homes.” The “subject to men” (hup’andrasin) must be interesting for anyone curious about the place of women in Greek culture; but it vanishes. Wilson goes with “no woman is honored as he honors her.” One of the more egregious examples is Telemachus’s speech to the assembly of Ithaca. In most Greek editions, the forty verses of this speech are divided into six sentences, in the typical multiple-claused classical style so familiar to all who have ever knocked their heads against a speech of Cicero. The (very literal) Loeb translation renders a few of its sentences like this:
>>We ourselves in no way have the strength for it: in the event we would only prove how feeble we are and how ignorant of battle. Yet truly I would defend myself, if I had but the power; for now deeds past all enduring have been done, and my house has been destroyed beyond all show of fairness. Be ashamed yourselves, and feel shame before your neighbors who dwell round about, and fear the wrath of the gods, lest it happen that they turn against you in anger at evil deeds.
>Wilson turns this speech into thirty-five disjointed sentences, apparently to make Telemachus seem whiny and immature:
>>I cannot fight against them; I would be useless. I have had no training. But if I had the power, I would do it! It is unbearable, what they have done! They ruined my whole house! It is not fair! You suitors should all feel ashamed! Consider what others in the neighborhood will think! And also be afraid! The angry gods will turn on you in rage; they will be shocked at all this criminal behavior! (2.59–68)
>One need not even be much inclined to philosophy (is there really no distinction between “evil deeds” and “criminal behavior”?) to find this kind of treatment of Telemachus shamefully simplistic. It is not justified by the Greek text.

oh good god

>I have been severe, but I wish readers to have a sense of what Wilson is actually offering: an abridgement and simplification of the Odyssey, to a degree unusual among translations. I think this is important work: I used to produce similar translations of key passages in Thucydides and Plutarch and Plato for my high school students. There are many worthy things in the Funeral Oration of Pericles that are otherwise obscured by the difficulties of Thucydidean prose. For young readers, and the casual “Book of the Month Club” type consumer of print, Wilson’s may be the finest Odyssey ever produced. I myself read Homer for the first time as a high school freshman, in the simple prose versions of Butler and Rieu, which I still commend to people. Neither of them were the writers that Wilson is. And to top it all off, Wilson can actually write verse. It may well be that a future generation of lovers of Shakespeare will cut their teeth on Wilson’s pentameters in their high school or even middle school classes.

Literally nothing but non sequiturs.

It's just this never ending cycle, pushing the culture more and more, consolidating power and all the while it's defended by the bootlickers pretending to be aloof about it "why do you care? Omg it doesn't matter"
Slimiest shit ever, it's not happening until finally they admit that it is, then they'll start saying it's a good thing.

No, just a simple reminder that what people call cultural genocide here has happened in the past, to a much greater extent than it happening now, and that the works of acclaimed writers have survived it fine.

Can you cite a counterexample? Genuinely curious.

>spoonfeed me

Thousands of texts have been lost to time and "survival" of a text does not equal the survival of a culture.

oh no now there are 101 translations ibstead of 100
western canon has been killed

literally kys retard

Except this is the one they're teaching

>lost to time

And how is it relevant in the current discussion ? We're talking about canonical texts being deformed or badly adapted (while the original stays widely accessible).

A text that people still feel the need to make relevant by adapting it to fit whatever social fad is likely not at risk of being suddenly "lost to time". Do you really think people tranlsating Homer means we're going to forget about Homer in a century ?

>"survival" of a text does not equal the survival of a culture

No but by that token you might as well argue Western culture has been dead for a good couple centuries.

What is your beef exactly, that people aren't talking about Shakespeare and Homer like they did 50 years ago ? You could have made the same complaint at any point in history since 1666. People still talk about Homer, and read him, including in the original, and translate him. Likewise for Shakespeare. We might not have a Richmond Lattimore but the culture of appreciation for Homer is very much alive, SJW twitterverse notwithstanding.

Or is it that suddenly there is one (1) translation of Homer by a woman that pretends to be feminist ? In that case rest assured, this is just another occasion for a bad translation as we've had many in the past. When non-feminist translations of the Odyssey (that is, every translation of the Odyssey except one) start getting banned or going out of print the cultural genocide fag wil have a case, right now he's just being a drama bitch.

oh yeah i forgot students are only ever allowed to read what's in the syllabus
no one can read anything outside of that, not even in their free time
the syllabus is the one and only way, not merely a common corpus meant to be a means to develop the tools of analysis and interpretation that majors are supposed to have. no no. it obviously isn't a way to demonstrate how translations can never be definitive, just like readings of a text can never be definitive either. it's obviously postmodern marxist indoctrination! what's next, burning any translation that isn't the feminist one?

Don't go to University. Educate yourself.

lmao in 10 years every department will be teaching this emoji-tier translation because it's easier for the lower-tier student body to read

They're not going to read another translation. It's another chip away at the cultural narrative and another chapter in the decline of the west.

this is transLOOTion

not him, but if they're not going to read another translation, then they might as well have been one of the people who never read it and simply absorbed the plot through cultural osmosis, and I don't see you ascribing """"cultural genocide"""" to them

>We're talking about canonical texts being deformed or badly adapted
We're talking about those deformed texts being taught in a university. Disingenuous fuck.

I don't see your point, having only a vague idea of something is not subversive. Where do you think the cultural osmosis comes from exactly?

All translation is interpretation all interpretation is co-opting

thanks for posting these user
appreciate it

You know this isn't an anomaly user
they are rewriting history on every front.
They will suffer greatly for their sins, god willing

When will the neo-Victorians stop fucking everything up. Anglos get out of my head reeee

Yes, and? I'm sure most university students have already read Homer. And no this females translation hasn't ruined the story. It's just one article using muh feminist writer to get more views.
None of this matters. It doesn't change anything.
You are just a price example of low iq trench brain feigning outrage for the sake of being outraged. Now kys you cultural wars subhuman.

if it includes lesbians instead or along with warriors homoeritism, then I'm in.

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You're really slimey dude, it is a feminist translation and you already lost this argument earlier in the thread.

I think a university opting for a compromised text for ideological reasons paints a strange picture. I’d find it odd if a university’s biology department started using evolution-skeptical textbooks to satisfy creationists, wouldn’t you? Why, I might find it so odd that I’d discuss it on the World Wide Web.
>most university students have already read Homer
You’d be surprised.
Also, by participating in this conversation, you’re taking part in the “cultural wars,” you silly goose.

NO. Our Puritans are AGAINST cool fighting or hot fucking, unless it is for the State or Extremely Consensual, irrespectively.

as someone said, our general opinion on sex in art spirals from "tits out for artistic glory" to "that's a SIN hide your filthy ankle". respectively, antiquity - dark ages - renaissance - vistorian/puritan - sex revolution - today
every time it changed for new reasons, so i believe soon we'll adopt a healthy open attitude towards cool fighting&fucking

I hope it happens before I become an old man, I’m already having erection difficulties!

the SJW LIBTARDS XDDD mostly exist on the internet or in their respective retarded spaces. you can limit your exposure to the latest doctrine on sex and stick to the one you like.
all old pieces of art are still here, and there are countless people who have normal opinions on sex in art, so you're good if you make a conscious decision to choose this instead of things that can give you an even worse erectile disfunction.

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Yeah, you’re right, I internalize the dumb shit I see on the Web more than I ought to. Thanks for the reality check and encouragement!

you're welcome, bro
the "loud minority" is more than a meme here, a small share of idiots occupy so much space, especially on the internet, that you start thinking their screeching IS the reality.
considering there's an even cringier demographic of unironical alt-rights who only add to the dumpster fire by giving it exposure, it's easy to believe that their "degeneracy" is a much bigger problem than it really is.

there's always a place for actual art and good things, and i'm surprised some people choose to keep whining about the decline of culture or shit instead of helping the matter.

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>feminism in any context is real

When society breaks down in the next hundred years, and it will, all females will once again become holes and men killers/dead.

Meh, university is just a stage of life. Is not like you are going to preach whatever they teach you the rest of your life, specially if it is a shitty translation.

Let people rediscover themselves what is actually worth reading.

retard
almost every single law will become irrelevant if we return to stone age, does it give you the right to steal from your neighbour right now?
does it mean that defending human rights now is bad because the society can collapse later?
you probably think you'll be the killer in that case.

Feminism advocates an inversion of nature. Why would I steal from a member of my community? Human rights aren't real. I specifically put the 'dead' part of 'killers/dead' in there to prevent this exact response but you can't help yourself.

>Richard Lattimore
The fucking hack journalist couldn't even get RichMOND Lattimore's name right.

shitting in the loo is also against nature, so is consuming strong alcohol, any sex beside PiV, all surgeries, antibiotics, C-section, the list is endless.
it's a conscious effort to not be a retarded grug that makes you human.

>Feminism advocates an inversion of nature
No.

>Human rights aren't real.
Fucking this. Why are liberals stuck so hard on this quasi-religious horseshit? Is it because it breeds complacency? Is that its utility?
He didn’t say “against nature,” he said it was an inversion of nature. Like walking on your hands or eating with your butt. I believe it’s a subtle evolutionary strategy, selecting against men with skinny arms and easily-overpowered brains.

Yes and you 40%ers are the living embodiment of this inversion.

This is a comforting lie, you could have said this just a few years ago but they continuously get more and more traction.

You're blathering incoherent /pol/ terminology, user. Gtfo.

>tranny FUMING
To think I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you might be in the 60%

okay, i accept this definition then.
i'm also against some inversions like letting the severely crippled or deeply preterm newborns live, so i understand your points now.
i hold a libertarian stance though, i think everyone should not initiate violence and should be able to protect him or herself.
shit like free gibs and quotas are not human rights in any sense

>Lattimore's translation generally considered the most accurate
>"No! That's too hard! We have to read it in three weeks!"

What the hell is wrong with Fagles for this purpose? Why do they need this greenhorn?

No, you still don’t understand. An inversion would be like giving the preterm baby a hat that says “Oldest Man” on it, or giving that severely crippled man a cool new pair of Michael Jordan Nike shoes.

>three weeks
lol, we didn't even get two

> giving that severely crippled man a cool new pair of Michael Jordan Nike shoes
topkek
anyway i think gender dimorphism will be abolished soon in favor of glorious sexless augmented Ubermenschen

FUCK ROASTIES

No no NO. Only among cultists in Silicon Valley and the Carolinas. And they will be the lowest untermenschen imaginable. Many will be Indians and Chinamen. You say sexless and augmented, I say castrated and blinded. They will spend their days doing paperwork for the big-dick or heavy-breasted, unambiguously gendered ruling class. Programming so their betters can cum and laugh. It’ll be a mass, useless reversion to an earlier, more beautiful time.

Modern universities are places of indoctrination and squeezing money out of retards. What would you expect.

>universities
imagine being so braindead to willingly give money so you can waste ur time getting brainwashed and indoctrinated, literally get a trade school done and live like a god amongst men

imagine not realizing that universities actually do provide jobs you can't get otherwise if you go into the right majors and use them correctly (pharmacy, medicine, law, anything in academia, etc)

Some supposedly world class university almost promoted some new feminist gospel and was only shut down by le based Arab man. I don't think even joker memes do the clown world justice.

This whole thread and my post was about humanistic universities, I thought it was clearly implied

list all the differences between this translations and others
list how it's been compromised or whatever
this goes for all anons not just you
I didn't read your post past the evolution skeptical shit because Lmao honestly dude

hurf durf there no equality in nature Lmao fuck human rights and sheit
imagine being this much of a grug

no way that's real, come on

This is a good thing. I hope all universities become ideologically SJW shitoles.

Which in itself is based and artpilled but should not take place in a work meant to be read academically.

It's like using Pope for the Iliad. It may be art, but you shouldn't make your students study it if you want to teach them Homer.

Odysseus gets home to Ithica and under disguise visits his old home, only to find that his wife Penelope has murdered the lecherous suitors and liberated his family single-handedly

Pope spoke practically no Greek and wasn’t even a good poet in my opinion. Wilson is an Oxford educated classical scholar whose been reading the Odyssey since she was a girl and opening up new discussions about Homer’s intentions is exactly what an academic reading should do.

>feminism must be in support of equal regard for the sexes
Equality is poison and you cant achive equality in a certain aspect without creating inequality on the other.
Its a word used to evoke spooks and the ideology of feminism cant survive on anything aside from this with their "moral olbigations" and "greater causes".

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I understand your statement, but it doesn’t deserve any sort of respect, since you can’t just use your opinion as a reason for some implied logical conclusion.

You don’t even provide any reasoning behind why you personally dislike pope, much less a logical one that you believe points to an objective conclusion.

I like Wilson and her translation, but pope isn’t my favorite and im curious as to why you dislike him. To paraphrase from oxford’s guide to translations, pope is the translation which comes closest to reaching the artistic fever pitch of the original. Personally I believe in an literary truth greater than literal one, experience over 1:1 and pope comes closer than a more literal translation for reproducing the feel of the original, So that she why it’s my. Personal favorite.

I added my opinion of Pope as a bit of a postscript not the basis for what I said.

As for his Iliad, he turned it into an English 18th century poem full of 18th century ideas of decency and proper behaviour and cutting out some of the more unpleasant things.
>but pope isn’t my favorite
I take it you meant to say he is your fav?
Did you read the Iliad in Greek? That's not a put-down, only Pope differs from the feel of the original much more than a typical translation by a good Greek scholar who tries to let Homer speak for himself.

Based

Have you read Homer in Greek? I’ve read Fagles and Pope, and though neither are the most accurate translation, Pope’s feels more like epic poetry. I believe he says in his preface to the Iliad the disparity between Ancient Greek and English, and so he looked toward Milton and the Bible for ideas on how to shape Homer into English. That said, it is more Pope than Homer, undoubtedly, but it is Homer nonetheless.

>colleges can only be humanist or STEM, they can't do both or be in between

Yes, since you ask. I'm a literae humaniores student though. And he should've looked to the Morte d'Arthur for the sort of English which would give the Iliad it's proper semi-barbaric flavour, instead of his elegant couplets.

Cant these people just fucking die already. I mean yeah, the nature of any translation means that some things are going to be inauthentic, but these harpies are going out of their way to butcher the story.

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actually i think she's trying to un-butcher it after centuries of it being butchered

It wasnt butchered. She's just looking at the other translations through her own distorted lens and has to insert things where they ought not be.

She's like that lady that wanted to renovate that church painting and ended up making it much, much worse.

How dare an academic look at the work of previous academics and try to improve upon it. Universities are for warehousing things I like, not producing things!

>improve upon it
Shoving your own ideology into it =/= improving. Quite the opposite.

Is the fucking translation BAD or NOT

None of you have spoken about the actual translation

i feel like this is further than you have authority to go. it definitely has been butchered. have you read the odyssey?

no one's read it mate

>previous translators had no ideology
wew

See:
&c

I'd imagine it's a translation that interprets Homer's language in a more gender-neutral and woman-friendly style, with less stuff about 'whores' and the like. A lot of our modern interpretation of The Odyssey is through the lens of white male translators from the 19th Century onwards, so it only makes sense to clear some of that old stuffiness out.

>Translating a text trying to be as faithful to the original as possible but making errors as this is the nature of language
vs
>Translating a text and shoving your own ideology in it
See if you can spot the difference

If you don't think that ideology gets into translation, especially poetic, at every turn then you're frankly too ignorant to have this discussion with.

I just said it fucking does you illiterate fuckwad

how do you know it wasn't homer's ideology if you've only ever read translations

America YES!

For how many centuries have you and your kind been singing that song? Any day now though, right?

why do you guys get so upset by these things?

Whiteys love playing the victim while accusing other groups of playing the victim.
Whiteys like to imagine themselves as being subject of conspiracies aimed at destroying them and their culture while they've spent centuries destroying the lives and cultures of people all over the world.
The "western" "canon" is not western, and is composed of bastardized versions of works that have been manipulated to espouse values that the originals didn't have.

A lot of civilizations have crumbled in that time.

She clearly has a respect for Homer and the text. Calling it a 'feminist translation' seems more like a publicity tactic than anything. In the twitter thread the other user posted she affirms Pope as a poetic genius; she isn't condescending to the 'white male' translations. Something like this shouldn't be as inflammatory as this thread makes it out to be. Even if the translation does contain a type of bias, it's the pet project of a scholar before anything else.

anything women do is a deliberate attempt to destroy the west

>women
>deliberate
lol

>translating a text trying to be as faithful to the original as possible
is, in fact, an ideology

>placate me, I'm wrong and insecure

Ahaha the salt

>Whiteys like to imagine themselves as being subject of conspiracies aimed at destroying them and their culture while they've spent centuries destroying the lives and cultures of people all over the world.
Why is the issue always framed this way? leftists love to say this shit
>its not even happening conspiratard
>but if it were, you would deserve it!
is the intent to train us in believing that we have no grasp on reality but also that the nightmares we suffer with are our fault?

The amount of time 'civilization' has existed is a spec on humanity's timeline. It is very fragile and fleeting. Even if it lasts a thousand more years it will have only been the tiniest fraction of the species' history. Do you understand climate change? Are you aware of the level of plastics in the environment? Things fall apart, the center cannot hold.

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what a stupid series of posts.

what a stupid post

Let them be. This is a drop in the ocean and not changing a thing

That's not true unless you have silly definitions of either civilization or humanity.

Fuck off tripfag

THANK YOU. Jesus fucking christ, Yea Forums. You might not like the Wilson translation, but

A.) you haven't read it, you mongs, and
B.) It's not whatever radical tumblr bullshit you're dreaming it is

based

Here's a pretty decent review of it that I've read. I can definitely see the issue with it, and with the translation lacking some 30% of the meat for the sake of modern brevity, you're losing out on something substantial.

kirkcenter.org/reviews/a-coat-of-varnish/
>All in all, Wilson’s work reminds me of a friend who painted a houseful of antique furniture a thick, beachy white. The result was airy and beautiful and utterly modern and fashionable: the interior could have been in a magazine for interior design. It was all lovely, unless you knew the beautiful, distinctive old grains of the oak, the mahogany, the cherry, and the walnut that were buried under the obscuring antiseptic modernism. Perhaps the next owner will take pleasure in stripping it all back down to the wood; but having known how much work that is, I cannot help but feel that a good coat of varnish, that would reveal the grain rather than blot it out, would have been a better choice for all involved.

what a horrid analogy

>getting 70% of the meat from cultural osmosis because everyone and their grandma has made a popular adaptation or allegory for the Odyssey
>Wilson cuts the crap and gives me the 30% that I missed out on
based

I know right
A more fitting analogy would be antique furniture that has been glazed a dozen times and then stripped back

>they will be the lowest untermenschen imaginable
and therefore only one step away from the ubermensch

lmao how is a stupid translation of a stupid book ruining everything. you belong with the reactionary right signing petitions to ban social studies in universities.

stop being a little bitch and just grow up.

excuse me but the odyssey is not a stupid book

It's not that this one bad translation ruins everything, it is that universities have a tendency to foul up everything, this being one example.

imagine being on Yea Forums and calling the Odyssey stupid, and saying that it is others who must grow up

>within the next few years, feminist translations will be the only ones used in academia and available for purchase, while all other translations will be blacklisted and banned from online bookstores for being 'misogynistic'
One can only laugh.

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OP here. I did not make that claim--that was someone else

No, I made the claim. And it's not outside the realm of possibility.

Now that you’ve made it, it certainly isn’t. You don’t think I see what you’re up to?

:3

Its entirely outside the realm of possibility
You spend too much time getting outraged at fake twitter screencaps and news headlines, don't you?

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And a decade ago no one thought that we'd be pumping little children full of hormone changing chemicals and celebrating their 'transition'. Also, Amazon has already started the mass banning of books that are considred 'offensive'. Pull your head out of the sand. Anyone with any pattern recognition skills can see the trend. You must have failed statistics in school.

I go to Columbia. This is sad. We used Lattimore my Freshman year.

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First of all, who is "we" and are half a dozen cases representative of the billions of remaining people on this earth?
And secondly, what books are amazon mass banning and why are you unable to purchase these books from the hundreds of other online book stores?
Your brain is rotten bruh

he's still salty because Amazon stopped stocking Selfie Suicide, if I remember correctly, as if they're legally and morally compelled to sell everything that exists

>literal TV show made about a tranny kid transitioning with millions of viewers and an outpouring of suppport on Twitter
>"nah bro that's just an outlier lol"
As for Amazon, the fact you aren't aware of the sheer number of books they've shitcanned recently shows how ignorant of the matter you are. Pro-tip: don't comment on issues you know nothing about, it makes you look like a retard.

>We're talking about those deformed texts being taught in a university.

The only university student that matter in this respect are the one who will make the effort to look for at least another translation, if not outright try to read it in the original. Lowest common denominator college "graduate" reading a subpar translation of Homer is still a step up from 50 years, when its equivalent would have been a high school drop out instead.

And the rewriting of Shakespeare tragedies I mention above were performed all accross the board by professional stage writers and directors. They had much more influence on the culture of the time that the current bottom 50% of college student who are basically vidya normies + a handful of books. Yet scholarship and popular appreciation of Shakespeare has only improved since then. If you want to point finger why not target the huge shit-spewing machine that is the pop culture industry ? Absolutely dwarfs Wilson in both influence and philistinism.

>but muh whataboutism

No, I'm not deflecting the debate to another problem, rather I'm pointing you to what I think are the real causes of the problem you describe, if that problem exists at all.

If that one translation is the sign of a doomed culture then either our culture is already dead or doom looks stratingly like business as usual.

A movie was made about elephant man but how many of them do you see irl?

Holy shit you are dumb.

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My bad.

>Columbia University has decided to start using a ... translation
criminal desu

>requiring everyone to learn Greek so they can read your stupid fucking poem

How easy is it to turn your kid into elephant man to impress weirdos on the internet?

if they're not studying classics they shouldn't read homer

Imagine paying for being taught a bad translation.

Why not? One of my professor assigns the Illiad for a seminar on warfare. The course counts for Political Science.

I teach high school English. I understand why Columbia did it. I don't agree with it, but I think they could've done worse than finding some harmless cunt to produce a comedic retelling and shoving it into the glittered faces of freshmen just out of their mandatory queer theory courses. Columbia is only trying to get out ahead of a market trend. They are being responsible in terms of generating profit by serving the interest of the student.

It's just not worth fighting any more. Literature is dead, and education is close behind it. Glitter-faced and rainbow-haired bourgeois flood the campuses with outrage and a Freudian need to feel oppressed and dominated. They actively seek out the most embarrassing and obnoxious displays and self-aggrandizement, just to elicit negative response. They are expert propagandists and provocateurs. They are interested in art only insofar as it can be used to glorify themselves - the phrase "my truth" is bandied about unironically. It's better this way. Universities become daycare centers for the fashionably stupid and the real work happens elsewhere.

I was visciously robbed and raped by. A pack of niggers in front of a group of feminists who cheered them on. Whenever i see a feminist open her wgore rapist mouth, all i can think about is how unfair it is that that rapist bitch hasnt had her face held down to a concrete floor and pummeled while someone raped hee fucking blody in ger disgusting feminist rapist ass.

Are you joking? The Iliad is the basis for all western culture. Up until 100 years ago you would be considered uneducated if you weren’t taught the Iliad at school

>a Freudian need to feel oppressed and dominated. They actively seek out the most embarrassing and obnoxious displays and self-aggrandizement, just to elicit negative response
the irony is thick with this one

brainlet here, how so

Yeah she lectures there now, doesn’t she? Why wouldn’t a university try to generate hype for one of their own (and in turn affect their own prestige) by canonizing their work? Shits not some SJW conspiracy. They just want money.

>Just grow up and let me do what i want, the world just stays the same there's no reason to worry

neo-Yea Forums wouldn't know that. They're redditors or /pol/luters who are here for the Jordan Peterson threads. I think that most of them don't even have a bachelors.

I don't know, just seems kind of self-unaware to claim that western culture is being destroyed with the majority starting to become the new oppressed but then turn around and complain about people searching for justification that they are the true oppressed minority

this

No idea. It's probably hilarious though.
I can only imagine that they view the Odyssey as a male power fantasy. Kind of true, honestly, but I'd love to see how they butcher it.

based ivy league hygiene product dispenser

>Universities become daycare centers for the fashionably stupid and the real work happens elsewhere.
Academia is a shameful place to make a profession. It now has all of the negatives of corporate culture while still being process-oriented, NOT results-oriented.

Did you feel that you were more knowledgeable about the world after earning your bachelors degree? I felt I just proved to myself and to employers that I could commit and grind. That's it. A majority of the 'knowledge' I gained over the four years in the university was things I read about in my own time. I can barely recall a single paper I wrote or lesson from a textbook, and I graduated only three years ago. Having earned a degree with a high GPA and coming to understand that degrees are a meme makes me see you as a tad pretentious in making comments that suppose a degree has intellectual value.

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>degrees are a meme
is a meme

It's not about the degree itself, it's about being in academia and having even a little understanding of who these people are or how academia works.

>"degrees are a meme" is a meme
is a meme

>"We just needed an easier translation! We swear! We don't care about the political aspects at all!"

Explain to me right now why they didn't just use Fagles.

>""degrees are a meme" is a meme" is a meme
is a meme
Wilson is easier

Fagles is on a Tolkien reading level; if a student can't handle Fagles then he or she is not up to par to an English degree at a school like Columbia.

Wilson's translation is so simple, that the abridged text is only a third of the original. Not only this, but she goes out of her way to ignore any sort of ambiguity or liminality, instead resorting to knee-jerk interpretations that any purple haired undergraduate could come up with

Where did I say Western culture was being destroyed? Calling out the paradox of the Oppression Olympics of the bourgeois has nothing to do with Western culture.

The polemics of shame and victimhood are the new social capital and it's been accumulated where you'd expect it to. The Odyssey hasn't been taught seriously in at least three decades. Sparkletrans students don't really have anything to do with that decline, they're only a symptom of it.

there's no such thing as a feminist translation
there such thing as a translator who is also feminist
and there is such thing as a university using the two in a headline to drum up attention be it positive or negative because let's not kid ourselves that's been the name of the game since circa 2016

have you ever read the odyssey? it's a female power fantasy. it's written for women more than anything

Sorry that’s not how it works. Lurk moar and stop degenerating the quality of this board; nobody wants you here.

i do

What a dogshit analogy

No did you read it she is taking 30% away from the original text you fucking retard

even better then, no?

>lurk moar
outed yourself as a newfag immediately
>getting 30% of the meat from cultural osmosis because everyone and their grandma has made a popular adaptation or allegory for the Odyssey
>Wilson cuts the crap and gives me the 70% that I missed out on
based

This is all bullshit. Just saying.

No. It's an interesting version that's worth reading eventually if you're a fan of the work, but it's not what I'd recommend as a first version to read. Go for the Rutherford version, he does a great job at capturing the humour without losing accuracy. I've also heard great things about the Grossman version but I haven't read it personally.