What quotes in The Iliad actually say Achilles and Patrolocus were gay lovers...

oh, also try "paed"

nice made up word you got there

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English translation. Benjamin Jowett was also an Anglo Christfag who downplayed the homoeroticism of Plato's works. Nevertheless, he preserves the scene where Socrates gets aroused by the sight of Charmides naked torso in his translation of the Charmides.

None

Why was Alexander such a faggot?

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People were extremely homosex in classical Greece, so they wrote yaoi fan-fiction/fan-art of them and aggressively shipped them - screeching on the olympusnet when anyone thought otherwise.

That may be the best answer on this entire thread

why is everyone a faggot ?

Because of (you)

Why are you talking about Homeric hymns when the question is about Iliad?

>mfw fags have literally been retconning characters as fellow fags since before the birth of Jesus Christ

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doesn't the idea you're trying to convey in the written part of your post quite contradict the idea of "clown world" from your honk honk meme

It was necessary

Eschewing the pursuit of pussy for the pursuit of the known world.

Since I got curious and managed to open the right page immediately, I'd just like to point out that the idea of Achilles and Patroclus being lovers is mentioned at least during Phaedrus' speech in the Symposium, specifically 179e-180a.

How about you read the book

>Aphrodite’s Eros, is the common, the popular love. It’s a casual love and so its deeds are aimless. This is the love of the most vulgar of men. This is the love that does not discriminate between males and females; of the body, rather than the soul, and one that seeks out the fools who care only that they achieve the ends and not that the means are noble. To them, therefore, it is of no consequence if what they are doing is good or foul.
This is due to the fact that the mother of this Eros is the younger of the two goddesses, who is the daughter of two parents, a male and a female, whereas the mother of the other Eros, the Heavenly Aphrodite, is the daughter only of a male and seeks out only the male and, as well, being the older of the two, she is free of wild licentiousness.

>The shameful lover is a common vulgar man who shams what is steady and immutable and prefers the unsteady and mutable, since he loves the body and not the soul.
>The honourable lover, on the other hand, has a stable character since he remains constant throughout his life. This is because he loves the soul which is also constant. And this is why our laws insist that a strict examination of the lover’s intentions is carried out

Globo-homo is old...
They did the same thing to the Spartans...

Greek love between men was asymmetrical and not necessarily sexual in nature. Patroclos being the elder was Achilles lover. That's why Achilles is revered, as the object of love he sacrificed himself to honor his lover.

everything human is fundamentally sexual in nature desu

I'm pretty sure the Greeks distinguished between the sexual "vulgar love" and a higher love. In any case, sex was not always practiced in these relationships. Think Socrates and Alcibiades.

homosexuality was criminal in Athens
and by all accounts they could also just be close friends
there is a strong tendency by revisionist modern scholars to degenerate any sort of close relationship between non-kin into purely one of sexual gratification as our own academia has been infected with such thinking since the mid 60s where sex is the be all-end all of human emotional relationship.
this also extends to understandings of family and community ties where many people try their hardest to boil things down to purely sexual kin based relationships as if nothing else were relevant.

its insincere and fails to take into account the first hand accounts from people of the time period, as well as cultural difference between cold Anglo Saxons and much more gregarious Mediterranean Greeks who even in the modern day are very physical and close with close male friends without a sexual aspect to the relationship.

he was an incredible egotist and wanted a lover who mirrored himself, while he saw women as nothing but property (as is their rightful position)

>everything human is fundamentally sexual in nature desu
this is your brain on middling for-profit universities

my brain on Freud, actually

don't want to be the one to say it, but its a safe bet to take ANYTHING a Jew says with a grain of salt

I already take everything he says with a grain of salt (although not because he was a Jew), but thanks

Search up Achilles or Patroclus you nigger. I am surprised retards like you can even breathe.

>whereas Achilles, son of Thetis, they honored and sent to his place in the Isles of the Blest, because having learnt from his mother that he would die as surely as he slew Hector, but if he slew him not, would return home and end his days an aged man, he bravely chose to go and rescue his lover Patroclus,avenged him, and sought death not merely in his behalf but in haste to be joined with him whom death had taken. For this the gods so highly admired him that they gave him distinguished honor, since he set so great a value on his lover. And Aeschylus1 talks nonsense when he says that it was Achilles who was in love with Patroclus; for he excelled in beauty not Patroclus alone but assuredly all the other heroes, being still beardless and, moreover, much the younger, by Homer's account. For in truth [180b] there is no sort of valor more respected by the gods than this which comes of love; yet they are even more admiring and delighted and beneficent when the beloved is fond of his lover than when the lover is fond of his favorite; since a lover, filled as he is with a god, surpasses his favorite in divinity. This is the reason why they honored Achilles above Alcestis, giving him his abode in the Isles of the Blest.

The Greek says τῷ ἐραστῇ.

Xenophon seems to have argued for the opposite interpretation of the relationship.

At any rate in the Laws Plato turns against homosexuality (I think there is an implicit criticism of it in the Symposium in Diotima's speech, especially when followed by Alcibiades) but won't argue about it on this cesspit. The kind of blithe, lazy, and criminally retarded responses like the above totally vitiate the possibility of interesting discussions in this place. I stopped coming here for a few years and it seems to have gotten much worse since then.

>and sought death not merely in his behalf but in haste to be joined with him whom death had taken
Interesting, because in the odyssey, when Odysseus goes to hades and sees Achilles, Achilles says he would rather be the lowest serf on earth than a king in hades.

>in the odyssey, when Odysseus goes to hades and sees Achilles, Achilles says he would rather be the lowest serf on earth than a king in hades.
Not him, but I think the point the author is trying to make is that being in Hades is really really bad.

It's worth noting, Plato was pretty explicit in his belief that they fucked and Achilles bottomed.
>Very different was the reward of the truelove of Achilles towards his lover Patroclus-his lover and not his love(the notion that Patroclus was the beloved one is a foolish error intowhich Aeschylus has fallen, for Achilles was surely the fairer of the two,fairer also than all the other heroes; and, as Homer informs us, he wasstill beardless, and younger far). And greatly as the gods honour the virtueof love, still the return of love on the part of the beloved to the loveris more admired and valued and rewarded by them, for the lover is moredivine; because he is inspired by God - Symposium

>Achilles says he would rather be the lowest serf on earth than a king in hades.
Funny how that compares to Milton's Satan, who says he'd rather reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

People doubt that Homer wrote both epics. It seems likely that he just sang the Iliad to it's most popular and recorded state. Regardless of authorship, anything written in that period and place is a Homeric hymn.

When man/boy "love" was condoned? What about Sparta? Everyone knows they had their homosexuals.

Which lines?

I'm afraid I only have a shitty translation without line numbers to work with.

Athens and Sparta were separate. You do know that, right?

>homosexuality was criminal in Athens
[citation needed]

Have you never read Plato?

Damn butterfly is redpilled about homer :3

Plato also thought homosexuality was immoral.

Read Plato’s Laws. Get these gays and lesbians off of here :3 it’s really dragging us down

>Plato also thought homosexuality was immoral.
So you've never read Symposium?

Patroclus was just Achilles' friend. You'd be mad if you're friend died especially if he was wearing your armor pretending to be you and that part of the blame for his death is on you

>recording Socrates’ admiration for the youth is advocating homosexuality in full
Symposium is a beautiful dialogue also (about beautiful love, not borrrrrinnng other stuff) please don’t ruin it for me.

>>recording Socrates’ admiration for the youth is advocating homosexuality in full
So you haven't actually read it.
See

So you linked a post admitting that Plato criminalizes homosexuality in Symposium. Just FYI

:3

Eros is not today's "love"
both or you are projecting your modern beliefs onto the text

Woah it's almost like Milton read the Odyssey

Hence why I meaniond them separately. Did you just wake up?

Plato was a homosexual pandering to the new social norms. And I think he was against the pedarasty (sp) mostly. Reasonable.
There’s a long long history of homosexuality in literature and you can just keep your yap shut and eyes averted if you don’t like it

>So you linked a post admitting that Plato criminalizes homosexuality in Symposium
How is that criticism?

Because it’s not your stance and it’s actually against your stance?

Ffs
You aren’t arguing with your internet boyfriend are you? Listen to me: Read. Plato’s. Laws.

> implying modern concepts about sexuality apply to archaic Greece

In other words, you're making shit up.

>crusty old gay man can no longer fuck supple boy thighs, declares homosexuality bad
Many such cases

Nice throwaway line, but it doesn't mean anything.

It’s ironic

I refuse to believe you're anything but a troll.

How does that make even the slightest bit of sense? I'm not the one who translated it, it's just the version that was required by the course I read it for in my undergraduate.

OH NO NO

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The only evidence for Alexander and Hephaestion being lovers is that they larped as Achillies and Patroclus.

Alexander and Bagoas on the other hand, well Bagoas was apparent very beautiful. But there’s more evidence for Alexander being straight than gay (although he was probably bi)

All words are made up

>In the age that the Homeric hymns were frist being written down, it was too coarse to mention such thing. Though it may have been implied to make all the butt-buddies swoon, to say it outright in front of the children was a no-no.
Not exactly. What you have to understand is that Illiad is about real war that has happened but for Homer it may have as well been complete fantasy. No written records exist of it as it was followed by the invasions that led to what we know as Bronze Age Collapse. The evidence comes from the Troy archeological site, of course not known to the Greeks. In Homer's times, however, stories about it were preserved in oral form and still being told around the world, hence some weird choice of words(for example "psyche", which in Homer times meant what it means now, in Illiad definitely means nothing more than "brain"). Odyssey may be something Homer actually wrote, but Illiad should be compared to Elias Lönnrot's "Kalevala".

Psyche does not mean either, it originally meant breath and figurtively life, later just life in the base sense, with pneuma being the higher.life unique to humans

Not in Illiad. In Illiad psyche spills out of wounded people's heads. There's a semantic shift happening between ~1200 BC and the time Homer is said to have composed/written Illiad(800 BC at the earliest) and it's not the only one example of it(but I don't remember others)

The stories, including the bits referred to as The Homeric Hymns, that passed down may stretch back into the "Heroic Age", sure. But they weren't written down until Homer's time
I forget though, was it during his lifetime or after. Being blind he couldn't've cared much.

Nice book for you, if you haven't heard

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Please stop, you have clearly not studied Homeric Greek