A God who could make good children as easily as bad...

Why did God design animals and humans to be homosexual, while simultaneously prohibiting the behavior?

>God design animals and humans to be homosexual
He didn't. Homosexuality is a choice

He prohibited the behavior but gave them free will to choose not to participate in it. Some people are genetically predisposed to addiction, but He still desires temperance.

So animals have choice, then? They must be sinners, in this case. Also strange that despite having the "choice", I've personally never had homosexual attractions before, nor feel I even could. Also strange that homosexuals have a distinct look to themselves that persists across time and allows them to be a recognizable subpopulation.

>Homosexuality is a choice
...I have some bad news for you

Does this extend to animals? What will he do to them?

Ah, never change, larpers.
Homosexuals have serious psychological problems because there are so few of them. They are a minority, and this makes it hard for them to adjust to and live in a world which is dominated by people who are very different from them. The result is that they spend their entire lives wrestling with their identities, trying to reconcile their values with those of the people who are on top. Black people spend their entire lives concerning themselves with their blackness, cripples with their disabilities, ethnic minorities with their marginalized cultures, and so on and so forth. This makes it both annoying for us to interact with them, and it also makes it very difficult for them to succeed in a world dominated by people who are happy and secure with their identities, and who are therefore far better able to focus on goals external to them — which is how the world is shaped. It is this shaping that leads to the domination of a sexual orientation, a race, or an ethnicity, and it is this domination which CREATES the minorities which then proceed to spend all their energy neurotically spinning about their identities, which merely serves to further marginalize them, and so on to infinity.

Your desires and proclivities may not be conscious choices (though of course you can change them through effort), but your decision whether to act on those desires and proclivities certainly *is* a choice.

(FWIW, I have no issues with gay rights/etc; but denying that engaging in gay sex is a choice is to rob the word 'choice' of any meaning).

Why would God consider animals to be sinners? You believe in doggie heaven or something?

Yeah, a god who made it easy to be bad and hard to be good, and sits back and watches what people do.

Actually makes perfect sense.

>dey wuz born dat way
Brainlet opinion m8s

Offers eternal happiness to his angels.

Yeah, man, children starving to death is for their own good, like, it builds their character

They didn't sin

suffering it was makes us great, the angles are in awe of our suffering, because throught it we get to know God more then they ever will, it is not a curse but a grace.

"Suffering is an abomination before the world, but before me it is unmeasurable glory ... Suffering makes man worthy of my love, because the suffering man is like me ... patience in suffering is a living sacrifice, it is a sweet scent of balm before my divine countenance, it moves the whole heavenly host into amazement. Never did one behold a victorious knight with such admiration as does the heavenly host the suffering man..."
- Heinrich Seuse (sry for bad translation)

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>animals have homosexual attraction
>people are born gay
You're about twenty years too late on your shit pseudoscience.

Why are they in awe of our suffering?

There's a homosexual gene, m8. It's been proven.

He offered it to humans too, but they fell from grace, just as Satan and the fallen angels did.

IF GOD REAL THEN WHY BAD THING HAPPEN

Is there a reason why would a God even exist? What's more logical: some space daddy creating the universe just 'cause or the big bang happening?

This

>the angles are in awe of our suffering
>christcuck in charge of understanding geometry
didn't you read the scientific journal last month? it's been determined that angels are jealous by the number of angel spartickles in the heavens

We also have access to it once again if we follow Christ.

"Why does God allow bad things to happen" is such a brainlet-tier complaint to level at Christianity. It's like everybody just ignores the New Testament.

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kek, best post. That is really what it boils down to every time.

Turn on your brain. He was writing in praise of God. Tbhwydesu I feel incredibly privileged to have been born a human. Yeah, it sucks sometimes. Most of the time. And yes MAYBE the idea of eternal contentedness in his presence as one of his angels sounds like a good deal.

But I'm here now and given the opportunity those angels never had. To choose him. To choose to love and praise God even when I'm broke, addicted, with no prospects and no gf. Evil exists, it is always the result of man's failure to act according to his directions. It makes life hard. It makes succumbing to rage, to apathy, to hard-heartedness desirable. But those are not remedies. God is the sole satisfier. God is the source of mercy and goodness. God's grace is here now. Reserve your self and claim him.

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I don't know, I'm sort of convinced that Twain was a brainlet. I mean, the man hated Jane Austen, which I've always taken as the sign of a moron.

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she wrote soap operas, user. yeah they had some social criticism in them but they were still the fiddy shades of their day.

this but unironically

>And yes MAYBE the idea of eternal contentedness in his presence as one of his angels sounds like a good deal.

Cringe and lack of amor fati pilled

>he thinks Emma and Mansfield Park can be pigeonholed as "soap operas"

You probably read Henry James like the faggot you are.

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Angels were made that way, user. We have the opportunity to make our own choice and be exalted above them. Nice bait made me reply.

Problem?

Haha what an idiot

God just does stuff and it doesn't make sense lol

Like we have free will haha and there is a battle between a red man in the centre of the earth against the bearded man in the clouds who is my dad haha and some times dad's punish us haha

If you disagree with this i will post pictures of fat guys wearing fedoras even though the only time I see records is on skinny little weirdos who go to evangelical churches haha

It's sad that many atheists became atheists in their youth so they still unironically believe the christian god is literally a bearded guy in the clouds.

Not Atheist but stop being Christian.

Why

BISS, Jew.

Animals aren't held accountable, obviously. Christians don't see humans as animals.

He never offered something to me.

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Basic Interoperable Scrambling System?

What is the christian god then?

An entity/force separate from space and time

so something outside of existence, in other words, something that doesn't exist

Outside of space and time, not existence

how does God manifest itself in existence?

Why do animals get to sin scot-free, while us humans receive eternal torment for it? Why does the attraction exist in the first place, if clearly not all experience it?

Calm down, user. Why are persistent scientific observations "pseudoscience"? Because they contradict the Bible? Isn't the Bible the pseudoscience, in that case?

I've always believed that the idea of a God existing isn't really too far-fetched.

Not that user, but you could say he did so through Jesus Christ

Sure, but the Old Testament deity as that one? I'm not so sure about that leap.

Can you clarify what you're asking

Meh, there's many denominations that would call the current God of today as the one of the New Testament, and not of the old; like he changed in a sort of way. into the entity of infinite goodness instead of mr floodman. Of course there's those that would say he's the same and hasn't changed at all, but this is the kind of thing that can be argued for a millennia.

what indication in existence is there that there is a God outside of space and time

Stop being Christian

So he's not even immutable. More like a teenager, still working through his own character flaws, while expecting upstanding performance for the same from us. Great. I think better Theisms can be conceived of, if people want to believe in that.

The lives of Jesus and his disciples, the mythologies of the world, personal experience, faith

nothing, that's what I thought

What do you believe in?

lol...

The old testament god isn't the christian god but the basis for him
Why are you like this

chance

Faith and personal experience aren’t indications of anything.

Then what experiences are indications of things

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why

everything is conditional on what happens within the physical universe

What's your reasoning

>The old testament god isn't the christian god but the basis for him
What?
It's the same guy.

you are the way you are because of:
1. Your genetic code
2. Circumstance
what else?

>we're still talking about this
homosexuality is not a trait found in nature
t. zoologist

I would not presume god to be evil. the scale and randomness of suffering does make me question his design for humanity. Are we really his chosen or are we just the latest iteration of ape men that shuffled before us.

It's mostly Jewish history and allegorical stories. I don't believe it's the literal word of God.
Your choices

what about the gay penguins

there is a difference between scientifically verifiable fact and the personal experiences of a small number of individuals, where is their proof? Faith is just belief without proof, we're still circling the definition of nothing
>Your choices
made by the physical brain, which is created by genes and molded by circumstance

Billions of people have experienced it though.
Where are your scientifically verifiable facts that show we don't have free will?

He's got a point. Why would I worship a god who creates us sick and commands us to be well?

>Billions of people have experienced it though.
experienced what? god? What have these experiences brought to the world? Why would you assume it's not their brain malfunctioning, or perhaps working exactly as intended, since without meaning depression would set in. But no one is able to display any type of thing in a laboratory. If billions of people have experienced God, then why is the world like this? I certainly haven't experienced shit.
>Where are your scientifically verifiable facts that show we don't have free will?
Take a moment to think about the context in which your next decision will occur: You did not pick your parents or the time and place of your birth. You didn't choose your gender or most of your life experiences. You had no control whatsoever over your genome or the development of your brain. And now your brain is making choices on the basis of preferences and beliefs that have been hammered into it over a lifetime - by your genes, your physical development since the moment you were conceived, and the interactions you have had with other people, events, and ideas. Where is the freedom in this? Yes, you are free to do what you want even now. But where did your desires come from?

He doesn't make us sin, he gives us the freedom to choose sin

billions of people thought that souls existed, many claimed that you would be able to eventually photograph it, or capture it on some kind of imaging system, Gurdjieff thought so, nothing came of it of course

>What have these experiences brought to the world?
Basically all of our history
>Why would you assume it's not their brain malfunctioning
Why would I?
>or perhaps working exactly as intended, since without meaning depression would set in.
Perhaps for a reason...
>But no one is able to display any type of thing in a laboratory
Why is that the only way you think we can discover anything?
>If billions of people have experienced God, then why is the world like this?
Like what?
>I certainly haven't experienced shit.
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
>But where did your desires come from?
I'm not disagreeing that those things influence who you are, but we have the ability to choose which urges we act on

So he likes to play? If freedom, then, is the highest good then why can't i use to do the wrong: how do we know good is good?

>Basically all of our history
In 1633 Galileo Galilei was convicted of grave suspicion of heresy for "following the position of Copernicus, which is contrary to the true sense and authority of Holy Scripture",[143] and was placed under house arrest for the rest of his life. etc etc
>Why would I?
because the brain is physical, not holy
>Why is that the only way you think we can discover anything?
god doesn't influence anything, the idea of god might influence behavior, but not anything in the physical universe, go flip a coin and pray to get a certain outcome, the outcome over a large number of flips is still going to be 50/50

dont understand mentally stunted faggots who think this way lol, imagine approaching the god thing from this deeply personal angle saying it all couldve been done differently... think it's blindingly obvious that the universe in its current state is a necessary predicate for all this in the first place. Like imagine thinking that God, the prime mover, first cause, cosmological being-in-itself, is this fuckin alleged dude in the sky whos clearly not real because if he was real he wouldnt be such a dick. Like imagine legitimately thinking ur smart for holding this belief lol. Imagine being some stupid atheist faggot and thinking that mark twain is a profound thinker. Imagine not knowing what cosmology is and just taking definitions at their cultural face value and then critiquing them without even knowing what ur critiquing.
Yeah bro gods a dick this proves he isn't real... can't wrap my head around the fuckin stupidity of this line of thought. To think I live on the same planet as you fucking losers.

Who said freedom is the highest good?

is hell not justice?

So what is... Good by itself? Heaven? If so, God doesnt desire the greatest good, clearly.

any of you fucking teeny brained high school educated faggots have any profound takes on theodicy? you guys rlly think the instrumentality of pain and suffering is a unnecessary feature of existence, or an unnecessary feature of divine love? u really think that either theres no god, or if there were then things must exist in a lil vacuum and that everything should be symmetrical n without suffering or pain? u rlly think those things have no purpose in the consummation of things? that if god was real then he wouldnt have made it so you have to take a shit each morning? what say you

>Galileo
People are retarded lol I'm not debating that
>the brain is physical, not holy
First, to my knowledge physicists haven't concluded that everything follows a predetermined path it can't diverge from. Second, you have a soul, friend.
>pray to get a certain outcome
That's not how prayer works. You're only further showing me your understanding of Christianity is very shallow.
The good is the truth. God desires we use our freedom to return to him by obeying his laws and repenting of our sins.

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>any of you fucking teeny brained high school educated faggots have any profound takes on theodicy?
At least I have a high school education.
>Second, you have a soul, friend.

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Why do you think we should be able to take a picture of something that isn't physical?

dont care about ur little chart lets discuss why u think there being a creator is irreconcilable with temporal reality, if u have a high school education then certainly this is all childs play for u

I unironically think I'm more intelligent than any atheist I've ever met. Ask me anything

why should i care about "souls" then

while ur at it can u tell me why scientists with specialized knowledge on shit like math and physics should be taken as authorities on philosophy, o great high school educated one

>why should i care about my soul if i can't even take a picture of it

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great thread guys, keep it up

first of all there's no proof for god, and second of all there's no argumentation in favor of god worth discussing, including Thomas Aquinas
you can take it as a coincidence that people who spend the most time studying this "god-created" universe are atheistic, and that there's an inverse correlation between IQ and religiosity

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>too stupid to know what inverse correlation means
just tell me if I'm supposed to believe in god or not user

what makes souls stand out from lets say telekinesis, telepathy, ghosts, levitation, resurrection, and all the other things there's no proof for?

>that US
kek

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issue is, i was submitted to christ as a child and that fucked me over like a catholic friar; if the truth were so easy to attain, this argument would make sense, but a) it forces death for no reason b) it implies god is outside the nature of man and c) it implies that one simply "accepts" christ like eating a damned pickle. this leads to pascal's fucking stupid wager.

>implying there are simple bads and goods
>implying it is anywhere near easy to be "bad'
i shiggy diggy

>it implies that one simply "accepts" christ like eating a damned pickle

I'm Catholic and this has not been my experience. Were you Protestant? Catholics don't have this "once saved, always saved" mentality.

What do you all think about the so-called fish club that he had for girls? Weird or ok?

Not having scientific proof != not existing

so what reason do you have for believing in it, if it was real, or if any of those other things I listed were real, they would affect reality in some way, and if they did we would be able to notice it and record it, but I have no way of knowing that I have a soul, I'm just an ape boy and so are you, deal with it

They give us life and conscience

Consciousness is a meme. Humans are as alive as a computer. Your thoughts and ideas are no more special than a program designed to output Hello World, only more elaborate. Observation is a spook, what you call perception exists on the same meta level as the object.

I'm sad I can't tell if this is bait

do you actually believe this? I bet you think genes are some kind of exact code that influences everything about you despite that scientists can't even identify the genes responsible for most heritable illnesses or traits LMAO
mattercucks will never get 'it'

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Space, time and contingent things in general show that there is a single being from which they continually derive.

Whats the proof that the concept "love" exists?

As written about in ancient Jewish literature in a cultural context where people saw their relationship with god in much more primitive terms (Epic of Gilgamesh etc)

Reality. Love is something special. Love makes you feel a certain way towards someone regardless of how they feel towards you. Love strikes us in various forms, like takes the shape of a connection between two individuals. Maybe these people are here for you because they saw you were in need. Maybe you were there for them because they were in need. Regardless, love occurs because you feel something between you that is with no one else. Like you two are the most important people in the universe. That, to me, is love. And it takes a lot of courage to love and to be someone unique. It takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there, in front of everyone.

:3

fucking (lord forgive me for saying this) retarded ass nigga. read soren kierkegaard. it's not about proof. that is not the point. faith is transcendent. you will never find proof of god, because god's essence is not material i.e. not provable. However, his energies have manifested before in the life of Christ and the apostles, as another poster already mentioned. I also firmly believe you can experience these energies if you open yourself to Him with humility. It isn't easy or intuitive like logic and reason are. You have to focus and have faith, which, as I said, is FUNDAMENTALLY irrational. Spirituality exists in every person, it is part of why humans are unique. God is in you too.

show us where?
read the article for Biological basis of love on Wikipedia if you like

I pray your relationship with butterfly remains unbroken!!

>wikipedia
god you highschoolers are fucking boring. read this and stop being a brainlet about evolution: stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_art-of-story-telling.pdf

It isn't gone? The feelings aren't gone? hm.

>asks for a proof
>just read the wikipedia article bro

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>faith, which, as I said, is FUNDAMENTALLY irrational.
yeah, fuck it then

>hurrrrr if I can't measure it or add it together it's useless

>the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter? nah fuck that

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disprove the argument from contingency right now

I think you just proved my point.
When faced with a concept known to be real but not belonging to any defining category of a materialistic universe, positivists lime yourself have to either rely on moving the goal posts or hackneyed, weak arguments.
You and I both know Love exists and we know that the gulf that separates human love from animal "love" (read: instinct) is unbridgeable.
We know human love exists not because we have viewed it under a microscope or written a formula for it but through the very thing you scoff at. Experience. Not only experience but through historic experience.
I'm assuming you've never read Alastair MacIntyre or Paul Riceur but if you maybe pulled your head out of Daniel Dennets gaping vacuum of an arsehole, you may learn something beyond your stunted and immature first year biology knowledge.

buh-buh-buh-based

Its not brainlet tier because you guys are forgetting half of the dilemma. Its very obvious to atheists how a god could exist with evil in the world. If he's not omnipotent, or omnibenevolent then its trivial to figure it out. But christians posit that god is ALL good, and ALL powerful, and ALL knowing.

If thats the case then there should be no evil because god should be ALL loving, and since he is ALL powerful then he obviously has the power to stop any evil.

>but sometimes bad can lead to good!
And? He can't be ALL good if he allows some bad because there is a net good. And besides, this statement is merely asserted without any justification. How do we know all bad leads to some greater good? This is merely an expost facto justification.

>but muh free will!
>implying
If you're a christian than you have to explain how its important for evil to exist so free will can exist, but somehow not in heaven.

How could you possibly know anything about him if he exists outside space and time? You realize you exist and your faculties for understanding anything exist inside space and time right?

My experience tells me there's a giant diamond in my backyard. Why dont you believe me?

We're gonna have to define what is meant by "all good" desu. Maybe the creation of the world and the entirety of history as it happened/happens constitutes that highest moral good possible. Maybe the creation of a world that is "good" by utilitarian standards (ie nobody ever suffers in any capacity) would constitute a more base sort of good. Or not even be "good" at all. I don't know, I'm not even a Christian.

The influx of catholic larpers ruined this board, CMV

Dont worry, the same way atheism was cool from 2004-09 due to wanting to run counter to the cultural zeitgeist, Catholicism is in that stage right now. They even are going through the exact same "wow everyone else is so stupid, everyone else but me". These kids will grow out of it in a year or two.

He works within space and time but is not bound to either
If billions of people claim there's a giant diamond in your backyard you should at least check

>there's no way anyone actually follows the world's most popular religion
>the racists and misogynists and anti-semites are all for real though and I don't have a problem with them

>Preferred to make bad ones
You are being a negative romantic. Most people are not actively evil, just inconsiderate.

>every single one of them happy
If your previous point is true, that both good and evil people exist, then having everyone both good and evil happy cannot happen.

>who made them prize their bitter life yet cut it short
Once you prize life, any mortality will be considered short relative to immortality.

>Gave angels eternal life
Uh, if you are arguing from Christianity, angels are servants and can get b& to hell. "Prepared for satan and his angels." Either read the source material properly, or leave it out.

>Yet required his other children to earn it.
Wrong. In Judaism, regular atonement sacrifices did the trick; in Christianity, having Christ as your atonement does the trick. I don't see any "earn" involved.

>Gave his angels painless lives
You are no authority on the pain of angels. Also, your next point about hell cancels this point.

>cursed his other children
This is very convenient. When an athlete, hero, or genius arises, you attribute the fruits of innate ability and accidents of circumstance to Man, but when for all the asspergs with AIDS that get ED articles, you blame God. I hope you never get jury duty.

>Mouths justice yet invents hell
An outrageous punishment is required to match the outrage of the crime. It establishes the gravity of the Law. Clearly you have never been raped or cheated of your pension before.

So you have had multiple finds. Cool. Picts?

We're not talking about whether or not their are actual catholics in the world, but of these larping "DESU VULT" catholics that think they're still virgins because they're "saving" themselves for their traditional wife. The same way there were atheists before the 2000's obviously you have to be extremely ignorant to ignore that there was a major counterculture component of the rise of atheists in the 2000's and the rise of these catholic larpers now.

Billions of people claim that Allah is great. Why aren't you a muslim?

What a fucking terrible argument. Please neck yourself.

Thats not true. My male dog used get raped by other dogs in the park all the time

ALL good =\= my personal or corporate good.

Yes Christians posit God is all good; they also follow that up with God not being easy to understand.

Argue about other things; there is no bottom to this one.

Or, you can be an asshole and claim to be good in the name of "mysterious ways". All this demonstrates is an unwillingness to accept the posit of an all-good God, which might be selfserving, since if God is allgood, the only moral reaction is to obey without question.

"My experience tells me there's a giant diamond in my backyard. Why dont you believe me?" is a fucking terrible argument how do you want me to respond

Let me explain to you how dumb you are OK?
This question was literally answered 800 years ago. That's eight-zero-zero.
His name was Peter Damian. Look him up.
I'll give you a warning though, you need your big boy hat on to understand it and not a copy of "the god delusion" you picked up in your $5 gas station bargain bin.
So make sure you have your diapers changed and the aeroplane brings you your yum yums for your tummy before you try it

>men who have sex with men = homosexuality

What makes you think they are larping? Who else is larping? Are Pynchonfags larping?

What kind of zoologist are you user? Specialist field? Working as? Serious question.

>they also follow that up with god not being easy to understand

Then how can they claim to know whether god is good if they can't understand him.

>let me explain to you how dumb..
Okay i'm ready, lets hear it.

>no explanation
Gee you really are a brainy. I can tell. Thanks for educating me man, lemme start worshipping the zombie kike on a stick.

I feel like you can't follow a chain of comments. Perhaps reddit is more your speed?

...who would want to larp as a catholic?

It's a combomeal of stigmas:
-pedopriest
-crusadefail
-DVVS VOLT
-butthurt kneejerk over the Lutheran heresy up to the current year
-brainletsuperstition
-bigoted LGBTMNTphobe

There's no egoboost in labeling yourself catholic just for the label, without unironic belief.

I don't know but doesn't God basically get to arbitrate what's "good" and what's not? I still find it strange that people find it so easy to determine God must not be "good," as if he basically couldn't just will that to be the case. Sorry for my unintelligent ramblings.

Where all the atheists and science worshippers congregate?

They can understand God is good by specific examples.

Example: Adam and Eve mess up, God clothes them in animal skin to cover up their nakedness, promises Eve that her seed will crush her deceiver's head.

The full extent of God's Good might not ever be discovered, but from what is (allegedly) known, they conclude God is Very Altogether Good.

Perhaps a better question might be unironically, if God really is good, why dont i have a big tiddy goffic gf. Not joking or trolling, this IS the only important question there is.

No, he offered it to Adam, and because of his idiotic fault we are somehow supposed to pay the price.

Yes, God does get to basically determine what is good.

Assuming he is cosmically smarter than you are, most of your conceptions of good might look like autism to him.

Assuming he has infinite power, he gets to make the rules. So in a practical sense, he does make the rules: he carries the biggest stick.

This is not to say God must be so alien in his goodness as to be totally beyond our comprehension. Whether you believe god made man or viceversa, it remains that man is like god "in form and likeness". God can be understood; how to understand him, that's practical religion.

That truck full of horseshit you just pulled up can justify pretty much anything.

That's because Adam and Eve are your ancestors, and human nature was corrupted when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. If you'd educated yourself by reading Genesis before posting your shallow fedora tip, you would know this.

answer me... tackle the argument. How do u, as an atheist, account for an empirically evident chain of causation, which, not only describes a feature of existence, but also its bylaws, so that what exists is causal and only exists in so far that it is causal, that uncaused things cannot be referred to as existent, and that all existent things have a cause, that they exist -because- they have a cause. How do you, as a good, reasonably skeptical, minimum high school educated individual, account for a universe, a reality, a plane of existence, which is causally dependent, and which dependency extends all the way back to the beginning, or first cause? Answer me. Did the universe exist forever? If it existed forever, then there must be other things that existed forever, since the universe, for it to exist at all, must be comprised of something. And that something, or somethings, would still be existent today. And if the universe was only comprised of -one- thing until very recently, would u not call this one thing god? How can the universe exist forever, yet have no eternal features whatsoever, no substance that exists forever. How can something have no beginning, but an end?

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>it remains that man is like god "in form and likeness"
>God can be understood
Couple of huge assumptions.

it's a simulation

Not user, but following the argument.

Adam rejected the offer of eternity, yes?

You are now being offered eternity in the person of Christ.

Just like Adam and Eve had to take god's word that the fruit is death to them, you also have to take God at his word that Christ is life to you.

It's harder on us in a lot of ways; we don't have God's personal company and conversation, dont live in Eden as daily proof of His goodness and power, yet we still have eyes, ears and taste just like Eve.

Just like Eve couldnt spit out the fruit and undo the damage once she swallowed it, i think it has to be the same for a personal acceptance of christ or else God would not be fair.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

And somehow I carry the burden of a decision that was not made by me. I guess God doesn't mind determinism all that much anyway.

dont know what you're trying to say

I highly doubt you pursed the article THAT fast

The popularity of the delusion is irrelevant since there's a selection bias at work (namely, you have to post at a specific website not exactly known for being the home of evangelizing). None of this Ray Comfort-tier retardation took place in 2014-5.

>How can something have no beginning, but an end?
Time is a ray pointing backwars but we go backwrads through it

Way to out yourself as a newfag

Why people question things I don't want to? Just be a brainlet like myself, is not that hard.

Why would I read the entire page when I don't know what the pertinent information is you vague faggot.

>Adam rejected the offer of eternity, yes?
He pursued eternity on his own terms and YHWH punished him for it. The fact that the punishment is ongoing puts YHWH and man on an antagonistic footing, but after a few years of throwing crumbs to the ones that he liked the best he then decided to give everyone an opportunity to get back into his good graces if they grovel at his feet.

I'm just taking from the text. It is not my business or within my means to prove God exists.

I understand i cannot prove everything; no one has ever proven everything to complete satisfaction. Courts of law accept "beyond reasonable doubt"; there is always doubt.

I do not accept that these assumptions are "big"; most assumptions are. Right now, for example, i have to assume you are not pulling me along in an elaborate bait. This is easy lisence for me to dismiss all your contribution, which is unfair to you.

If you will, is there any specific objection to the assumption that God is good or understandeable?

There have always been Christians on this site. There were God threads on Yea Forums a decade ago

I understand your sentiment; my case is hermetically sealed if allowed these assumptions.

I have already mentioned elsewhere that there is no end to this argument. It can only be solved with assumptions, and neither side are willing to give them.

All you can reasonably ask is why each side believes as it does.

So you want me to spoonfeed you the information? lol

>Only one enemy remained, two if you counted God.

>The punishment is ongoing.
I am not sure about that. If we are being actively punished, then the later condemnation to hell would be double jeopardy.

The text says, "the GROUND is cursed because of you." Of the three, only the Snake was actively cursed by God; Adam and Eve were just told the consequences.

>god exists
>creates the universe
Ok seems as reasonable as the idea of an eternal universe
>god creates man
Would logically follow.
>Man's sentience is eternal in the form of a soul
Why must this last part follow? Perhaps our sentience is only temporary.

Stop it. You help no one with your goading.

So you've received three answers so far. Are you going to respond to any of them?
I'll add my own: you're delusional

The condemnation to hell is the punishment I was referring to.

>Of the three, only the Snake was actively cursed by God; Adam and Eve were just told the consequences.
What else would you call being damned by default for an inherited sin?

God is immutable, but he can reveal different aspects of himself to humans at different times. Yahweh and Jesus are both God, God didn't change from the Old Testament to the New, he just changed how he appeared to humans

Perhaps.

But not according to the text.

Multiple mention of consciousness beyond death, including Job.

You forgotten the Free of will.

Okay, hell then.

Going by the Christian idea, you are being offered the fruit of eternal life in the person of Christ. Adam was told not to eat damnation, but he did; you are encouraged to eat salvation, but you did not. It is the same sin, with the same result.

I agree it doesnt seem fair that i have to suffer for Adam's fuckup. And yet i dont have to suffer for Christ's achievement: "my peace I give to you" and "it is finished (kulah, paid in full)" the same unfairness is at play, so it is all finally fair.

The OP makes my question seem specific to Christianity. In a general sense it seems that when one argues for the existence of a generic deity, eternal life is always included as a given.

imagine you loved your creation so much that you gave them free will. There is no evil, only people who are trying to diverge from good. Sorry for bad engrish.

Eternal consciousness seems assumed any religion you care to pick. Philosophic Greece wasnt all philosophers.

Even old school confuscianists talk about Transcendent Persons (gao ren) who are immortal through self cultivation.

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Literally none of those are arguments

You aksed for answers not arguments

Am pister.

Inaccurate, but loled.

Am poster.

The only reason to believe is the cross, which

1 Corinthians 1:22 the jews demand signs from heaven, the greeks demand wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, which is an offense to the jews (if it is presented as a sign) and nonsense to the greeks (if presented as wisdom)"

The mindset of the jew here is that of an empiricist materialist; that of the greek is of a philosopher.

I am not saying that science and philosophy have no merit; only that faith doesnt proceed from them.

how am I delusional... why am I the only one in this exchange whos not a vague lil faggot who has to talk in these enigmatic one-liners lol, argue against my reasoning bro make your case

what information? what's your point? fucking loser. yes im asking you to make a point. the big bang is in-line with most cosmological arguments because it suggests a definite beginning to the universe... I don't know why you're posting this in response to my post when that was my whole argument to begin with fucking stunted loser.

consciousness preexists in the divine intellect as soul

based post

Animals don't have souls.

Why the fuck are you so adamant that people aren't really religious? Pure autism.

Love - emotion that elicits change in brain states. Doesn't exist outside of the brain as some kind of force.
God - an idea. Doesn't exist outside of the brain as some kind of force.
What's so hard to understand you fucking brainlet, "prove an emotion exists" - nice argument for the existence of god.

But God is Love and exists everywhere.

There is no such thing as nothing. Non-existence has to collapse into existence. "Nothing" existing is an oxymoron. There, argument disproved.
>How do you, as a good, reasonably skeptical, minimum high school educated individual
I'm just curious, did you actually drop out of high school or something?

Also, to say that the universe has a cause might be true, but that that cause has to be God just doesn't follow at all.

I dont see how the imaginary nature of nonexistence disproves the argument please explain this.
and no I didn't drop out, I never went in the first place.

Omnipresence, omniscience and omnibenevolence are all attributable to the first cause from its inherent condition of primeness - omnipresent in that it's causally active in the universe, omniscient in that everything that exists came from it meaning that it knows everything as it contains everything, omnibenevolent in that its the source of all life... think these are all necessary attributes of anything thats prior to temporal relations, space, motion, partition etc... if the prime mover isnt god then what is it

there is no alternative to existence, so no cause is necessary

Even if God is real I see no reason to pray or even believe in him. Clearly he is not benevolent.

We can't know anything about a scripturally-based God save what has been shown to humans through the scripture. Nothing else can be justifiably spoken of the entity that isn't our own philosophical imaginations at work.

I need proof for this statement.

so ur saying that the universe is a metaphysical necessity alright but if thats the case then it existed forever... which means something comprising it mustve existed forever, idk, some eternal dust particles or some shit... but we both know theres no material thing thats without cause because causation comes into the definition of the material in the first place. This seems pretty fuckin loony for reasons i already explained in my previous post

>yes yes, my children, i have created you
>here, have sunburn, parasites, smallpox, polio, cancer, heart disease, tooth decay, childbirth, urinary tract infections, diarrhea, chlamydia, warts, ageing, senility, mental illness, anxiety, suicidal inclinations, and infection
>i give you deserts without water, soft feet for rocky soils, clawless hands and a host of predators, daily hunger and food that runs faster than you, long gestation with high infant mortality and maternity death, plants that can kill you if you eat them by mistake, random diseases and plagues without medicine, I cover 80% of your planet in saltwater, have some dead animal corpses to pollute your fresh water sources, have some cholera, want some tuberculosis? staph infections?
>slave in the dirt for 8 months and maybe you can grow a potato
>here, mass starvation, war, rape, corruption, extortion, hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, wildfires, floods, locusts, and insects insects insects! enjoy some nice rats as well, frens

> which means something comprising it mustve existed forever
Why? Things come and go.

yeah, from somewhere and to some other place.

Who says the material can't have existed forever? And you're only able to refer to causality because of what you've seen applied to the pre-existing, uncaused material?

great post

the only questionable ones here are r*pe and w*r, since humans perform them by their own volitional error, but the rest is great

*is born with AIDS*

here user, try this one for size

free will is in direct contradiction with God's omniscience. even if we accept to pay that price, free will still needs to be proven.

There is no such thing as no-thing.

matter can be destroyed through quantum mechanical processes
okay?

hilarious that christians can't even agree on what the nature of their god is, and every millenia since christ the accepted definitions have been expanding, changing, rearranging, etc such that no two christians can be picked out from two points in time and found to worship the same god

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>Who says the material can't have existed forever?
its a feature of materiality to be contingent. if it wasnt contingent, it wouldnt have qualia in the first place and wouldnt exist... if it wasnt HERE so as not to be THERE (a difference which only arises through causal discrepancies) then it wouldn't be ANYWHERE... SHIT CANT JUST EXIST FOREVER AND STILL BE MATERIAL WITH SHAPE AND FORM BRO IT HAS TO BE GOD jesus fuckin christ you ppl are dumb

>somehow I carry the burden of a decision that was not made by me
Yes, this is the price of free will. If your mother chooses to drink while she is pregnant with you, you will be burdened with fetal alcohol syndrome by her choice.

all 3 brainless wojaks are for me in this thread lol, still no one can provide any reason for god to exist

i don't really understand this post, but i'm a panpsychist and pantheist who recognizes consciousness to be eternal and this all to be a dream, and don't really need to justify much to people who not only think that there's an omnipotent, omnibenevolent (lol), omniscient deity in some other realm that immaterially created everything here (including disease, pain, and all that other good stuff, lol), but also confidentally identifies this spaceless, timeless (and anthropomorphic, lol) entity with a space-and-time anthropomorphic being found in the mythology of a set of Hebrew scriptures from one culture of the world, and his later carpenter son who martyrs himself for the above omniscient being's sake, then i'm okay with sounding stupid.

you will not receive a single good response, i assure you that

alright u dont believe in the cosmologically significant abrahamic god, but u believe that the inanimate universe is somehow a deity... this the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. Either god created the universe or nothing did, theres no fuckin inbetween you dumb faggot, theres no space-god you fuckin sci-fi addled donkey faggot jesus fuckin christ i want to strangle you rn... what is consciousness bro, how is consciousness eternal. in what does consciousness consist? some crazy space-aether? HUH? fuckin retard im gonna kill myself cause of you

What's "inanimate" about the universe?

>either god created the universe or nothing did
Who says it was "created"? Your second part comes closest, namely, "nothing created the universe, because it has always been". And you believe this spaceless and timeless deity has a Hebrew name, huh?

>what is consciousness
Consciousness is the propertyless void in which everything else you know of exists. Everything else, including the universe around us, is contingent, but consciousness is the fundamental, groundless ground on which the all the rest rests.

a medal will be given to any Christian who can address this post to any degree of satisfaction

Here then, let me push it a bit further.
If god exists, then the only logical answer is that this world is hell and we are all the sinners here for punishment; we just can't remember what crimes we committed to deserve it. For indeed remembering your act would bring you a sense of comfort and strength of will in hell.
There is far more misery and suffering than there is genuine happiness.
I'll remind you of that 120 year old russian woman who said she never experienced happiness a single day out of her life.
The further you critically examine this world and existence, the further horrors you will find; you do not suddenly discover any source of hope or comfort. Quite the opposite, in order to hold any sense of hope you need to manage to delude yourself about some aspect of reality.
Human beings seem, if anything, to go out of their way to torture each other. We devise incredibly sophisticated systems of such torture. Debt enslavement, nepotism, make-work, our schoolsystem which beats individuality hope and creativity out of children and instills them with the idea that learning is suffering agony and endless hours of rote memorization and insipid multiple choice questions. Victims of child rape go on to become themselves child rapists. Endless wars resulting in the loss of life and livelihood of millions of innocent peasants who were already barely managing survival. Constant random destruction, car crashes stray bullets random disease natural disasters maulings muggings. Cancer is rewarded at increased rates based on how long you've managed to survive. There is not a single governmental body on this earth which is not a system of corruption and tyrrany. Sex and violence sells better than empathy or beauty. Happy endings are found in childrens' stories--the adult audience relishes in misery, death, despair, suicide, violence, murder, domestic abuse, and throwing characters into various situations from which a good ending is impossible.
The longer we spend in this world the more we relish in depravity and corruption.
This world is the perfect system to turn infants into demons. Kids graduate starry-eyed and go on to be insurance agents conning 90 year olds into extortionate life insurance policies. Our economic system deprives people of 40-80 hours of their week in exchange for barely covering rent and food. We could automate or eliminate most jobs--we don't. Governments run best when the populace are isolated, information deprived, sleepless, and under a pressing mortgage. Everywhere I look I see a system of torture that churns out needless misery. Any measure that might improve man's standing isn't profitable. Suppose someone came up with a cure for cancer. Well, good luck finding a company to support that. You'd go bankrupt for your effort.
There are two choices. This world is an unfolding of mathematical principles, or it was purposely designed this way, and the closest word I can find for that is Hell.

>how can God be real if sometimes I'm sad

>invents calculus then decides to BTFO this nonsense

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Most atheists are low iq brainlets that watched the amazing atheist and rationality rules and now think that they can dismiss religion outright.

God is a kantian deontologist. Consequences don't really meatter.

>if sometimes I'm sad
At what point does our notion of a loving, paternalistic god become incoherent with the scale and randomness of suffering. If our existence is a grand test to determine our worth why introduce so much outside of human control?

user, don't be coy. Respond to his first post, here:

Great, even less reason to worship his worthless ass. Literally the most useless concept our species has ever spent time on.

>implying chemicals in your brain has moral value
wow

>god bases his morality in pure reason
>why don't he care about chemicals in my brain REEE

refer to IQ to religiosity chart here

The trouble and pain of childbirth is specifically mentioned in Genesis as one of God's punishments for humanity after Eve ate from the apple. The "slave in the dirt for 8 months to grow a potato" as well. In paradise all these things didn't exist and humans wanted for nothing. The world was at their fingertips and all they had to do was follow 1 simple rule: don't eat the fruit.
Genesis is specifically written to etiologically explain why the world is such a shithole to live in, if a good God created us.
I have given you the answer, of course you're not going to be satisfied by it because nothing short of materialistic atheism will satisfy you.

Genesis is etiological mythology, meaning it's an ancient mythological account for why the world is as it is. Most people readily accept Greek myths as being protohistoric etiology, for example when they say "the Milky Way is actually the breast milk of Hera splattered across the firmament by infant Hercules." Everyone readily accepts the Greeks probably didn't take this literally. It's just a story to explain the state of the world. But then you get to the Bible and all of a sudden people start strawmanning and insisting Christians should take ancient, mythological tales literally. The best example is the story of Babel. "If God made all humans why did he give us a different language?" Read the story of Babel to know.

he created those chemicals, silly

>not knowing about evolution
oh my sweetie

>w-well what if our world is, like, a little blot that's part of a big beautiful painting
Then you still have to account for the blot. The relative size and role of the human sphere to the totality of Creation is irrelevant when you're talking about Omniscience. "Not a hair can fall" and all that.

I see children who just want to make the world a better place and help everyone. 10 years later economic reality crushes them, and they're working for some godforsaken financial corporation selling derivatives of repackaged ratings-fudged derivatives with dead eyes and a body running on anxiety and caffeine.
i see men who cheat on their wives with hookers while the wife cheats on him off of tinder
i see unloved children who can't even eat a good meal and the sons of extortionists wearing $1000 shoes
i see dogs with eyes full of love and friendship left freezing at the end of the rope in a yard
i see rabbits being eaten alive by loose housecats
i see people who need to overdose on painkillers just to wake up and go to work, barely clearing broke at the end of the month
how many people do you know who have managed to fulfill their hopes and dreams or improve the world by any real measure without compromising in some way and getting on their knees for the guy who has the money?
how many children do you know who are genuinely loved and not abused or wanting?
do you know any couple who doesn't go home to emotionally abuse each other behind closed doors?
do you know anyone who hasn't glorified in the misfortune of another and wished harm on others?
we wantonly wish others suffering and death, and in turn are so cursed. we spend our limited days sitting in traffic performing jobs that benefit no one. if the entire workforce stopped going to offices and started going to fields and medical schools we could improve our station. yet here we are. the number of doctors allowed to graduate and practice is artificially limited. drugs are designed for maximum profit, not maximum effectiveness. a priest goes to service and stops at the porn shop on the way home. men of god sexually abuse children as the norm, not the exception. In Tennessee I saw on a hill a cross lit like a beacon, and below it by the highway was an adult goods store. women abuse their children and take out their frustrations and anxiety on them because they are helpless to defend themselves. even in literature, we'd find giving the character a life of happiness and lack of suffering to be all too boring a story to write. We want death and misery, we spend our days creating it and reveling in it. This world is a perfect factory to create demons and human suffering.
Tell me one person who makes it through life without becoming a demon by the end.
The answer is that this is Hell.

Well, that's the thing. If there's an all powerful creator out there that MAY want you to worship him for whatever reason, I feel that that must be reason enough to do so. Since he gets to determine whether you should or not and all that. I don't consider myself a Christian but it bother me when people act like there's no conceivable reason to worship a God that allows bad (in other words, painful) things to happen.

>if theres other world idc because im not in it now

Sins of the father. Tell me, if my mother committed a crime, ought I be punished for it regardless of whether I condone it or not?
Look at a newborn child and tell me it's right to punish him in his innocence for what his father has done.

>ignores the suffering of women
yikes

>Then you still have to account for the blot
Precisely as Leibniz does? Oh you haven't read him, I see.

Even when I was an atheist, I've always abhored the pretentious sarcasm of clueless blabberers like you. There is not a single worthwhile argument for atheism on the internet that appeals to a mind even slightly capable of critical thinking.

Not the point. The poster asked "if God is good, why is the world a shithole." Answer: because he punished humans for not following one simple rule while they were literally in heaven on earth. It's myth. Genesis is written specifically because humans in the desert 3000 years ago noticed that life was shit (who would've thought?) so they cooked up this story about God punishing man. That's all there is to it. This is why we are flawed, mortal, susceptible to disease, etc.

You might as well start 200 threads a day to whine about how unfair it is Zeus shackled Prometheus to a rock for eternal torment after giving humans fire.

The concept of sins of the father being paid by the son is itself immoral.

Doesn't take much

For you.

First of all, you've only addressed two points, childbirth pain and agricultural labor, out of a post that mentioned dozens and dozens of other realities. Secondly, nobody "strawmans" Christians or "expects" them to literally believe in an account like that found in Genesis; many Christians LITERALLY believe in this account as a cosmological and philosophical narrative of our species and our world, and use it when addressing questions asked of reality. To even deny this is to be a shameless liar. Sure, YOU may not believe in it literally, and I'm not sure what the official stance is by the various Churches, but you're an outright knave if you suggest that a large number of Christians don't take these stories as literal fact. If Genesis isn't literal, all of Original Sin isn't either, and the entire Christ-as-Savior/Redeemer mythos your religion is predicated on therefore disappears into dust. In other words: deny Genesis, you deny the Fall/Original Sin, which denies Jesus as needed to redeem the world, which denies your whole religious enterprise.

>Nothing short of materialistic athiesm will satisfy you
You can't even honestly respond to the full range of negative realities that user brought up, while simultaneously believing that anyone who doesn't literally believe in your single and incoherent religion's mythological account of reality must be a "materialistic athiest". What travesty.

whats up zeke you dumb faggot queer

the existence of gratuitous suffering would disprove God's omnibenevolence. the fact that God cannot increase the sum of good by creating means that all suffering is gratuitous. therefore God cannot be omnibenevolent.

>Christians taking Genesis literally is a strawman
Are you a Yankee?

>First of all, you've only addressed two points, childbirth pain and agricultural labor, out of a post that mentioned dozens and dozens of other realities.
Are you daft? Read between the lines. The Fall introduced all of the shitty things that user listed in the post I responded to, I just made it a point to point out that two things he mentioned were specifically addressed in the Bible. The entire idea of the story is the world was paradise, and then the world was shitty. Including all those things the user listed. Come on.
>other people believe x
Very well, but I'm not on a holy crusade to justify whatever someone else believes. Not to mention taking Genesis literally seems te be a relatively new, specifically American phenomenon. In any case, why should I bother defending others' beliefs?
>If Genesis isn't literal, all of Original Sin isn't either, and the entire Christ-as-Savior/Redeemer mythos your religion is predicated on therefore disappears into dust.
Simply not true. Genesis explains why the world is shit and why human beings are flawed. We can overcome our flaws through Christ. Where do I need a literal tale about a girl eating an apple? It's MYTH.

They're the one's taking it completely literally. You can say the fall happened somehow without denying that the account of it was written by some Jew in antiquity and was thus necessarily expressed in terms that reflect the author's cultural background etc.

Which standard of morality do you even appeal to? It's probaly just "muh feefes"

>Yankee = all Americans

>Which standard of morality
You want me to namedrop something off a list? Or do you want to use your brain on a case by case basis?
How is punishing billions of innocent infants for something some woman 30,000 years ago did at all in any way morally correct?
If a man shoots your dog dead, and 30 years later you track down his son and shoot him, how is that justified? For all you know the son told his father that killing the dog was wrong, but that never enters into the equation apparently.
The son is judged without having any agency of his own. He is unable to do anything to avoid the punishment, no matter how good and honorable a man he may want to become, he'll be punished either way for an action he had no part in and can do nothing about, which may have occurred before he was even born.
In what way is that morally permissible?

Oh, great. So Genesis is out the window. But wait, you guys still believe in Genesis, and the Fall, and Christ as redeeming us from that, and everything else while simultaneously denying all of it and claiming that there was no creationism, no Adam and no Eve, nor any other creatures created like your holy texts describe, but rather a steady and random cellular process that brought all species to where they are today. The "first cause" is no longer "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth", but rather "a singularity exploded and produced everything which has since under gone a random process of random mutation up until the present state of things". Wonderful. Christians can't even follow their own damn doctrines with any degree of success. What's even the point? What do you think you've accomplished? You literally don't even have a religion, just a series of self-cancelling positions on reality, and nothing left at the end of it. If you had any dignity, you'd believe in whatever your religious scriptures require you to, but you instead think that by denying them and believing in prevailing scientific narratives instead, and then somehow also still believing in the God of the religious scriptures, now attributing all the features of the scientific narratives to it, that you've now "shielded" your theology from all sides of attack. You haven't. In reality, you simply have no position, at all, of any kind.

Can you give me an actual argument instead of emotional appeals? Moral facts don't care about your feelings.

>that must be reason enough to do so
Nah, I'll do what I want, thanks. Not interested in making myself a little slave for a deity less helpful to me than my own family physician. You can do so, user, if you'd like to sacrifice both your reasoning and behavioral autonomy for a deity that quite literally doesn't do anything at all, let alone anything beneficial, but I have an individual life to live.

do you expect me to read all that?

I gave you an entire post of argument. Will you not be satisfied until we've reduced it to a mathematical equation?
Answer me thus, why did god create tuberculosis and cholera? Is an infant shitting his life out or a housewife coughing blood a moral good?

>No reply to this question is to be expected on earth, except that, in general, one must say that, since God found it good that [Judas] should exist, despite the sin that God foresaw, it must be that this sin is paid back with interest in the universe, that God will derive a greater good from it, and that it will be found that, in sum, the sequence of things in which the existence of that sinner is included is the more perfect among all the possible sequences.
That (and other similar passages throughout Leibniz's writings) are not an account. Leibniz cannot say HOW the existence of a given evil improves the big picture, and indeed does not believe that such an answer can even be found by man. So it all comes down, once again, to whether one has already accepted the first principles of the faith.
(Of course, Judas was probably a bad example to use, since a justification can be found in Scripture—"the Son of Man has to go as was written.")

Jesus, what a cringy free spirit you are. I never said I chose to do so, I just said there was a conceivable reason to do so- basically if there is a God and he wants you to/will award doing so (and punish not doing so). That obviously involves a few assumptions, but for someone who makes these assumptions I can assure you there's a reason to do so. Most people arguing that God is morally evil for letting bad things happen seem to be affirming the doctrine of consequentialism. Not everybody does.

Oh, so it's MYTH, but you'll LITERALLY get sent to an eternity of either torment or paradise if you don't go along with the MYTH. Just like any other MYTH, like when I read Greek mythology and know that if I don't believe in it and structure my life around it that Zeus will LITERALLY turn into a swan and come sodomize me. You're just dishonest, is all. Thinking you can have a fictional theology which is simultaneously a literal reality. If these stories aren't literally true, it has no literal relation to our human reality beyond the asthetic allegory it can stimulate our imaginations with.

Again, you don't have to believe in Genesis or any of the other Biblical stories. I'm not saying you do. I'm saying you can't claim it to fall under the same category of "mythology" that all other cultural mythologies equally fall under, while also having a literal dimension to it which the others don't, that we need to shape our lives around or else face the real consequences for.

Jew

"My children, ignore said posts, as they are written by a failed creation of mine, a wretched resentful 21 years old incel anime loving pedophile from Dundalk, Maryland going by the name of Zeke" -Allah

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"By ignoring the post altogether, I've successfully defended my position!"

Who created our consciousness, water, food, the air you are breathing right now?
Who made you without any significant physical and mental defects?
Who gave you the eyes, fingers and intellect to write this post?
Who gave mankind the capacity to build and create weapons and houses protecting ourselves from the outside world and putting us on the top of the food chain?
Who gave man vast fertile fields, rain and seeds to grow food?
Who made the feeling of love, friendship, warmth, cosiness, sexual pleasure?
For all the diseases you have mentioned, who gave mankind the capacity to make cures for almost all of them?
For all the disasters you have mentioned, who gave humans the little bit of courage to face them?

The implications of the myth are true, it doesn't really matter whether God created light before the sun or not because it's an ancient cosmogony written by desert tribesmen, they didn't need to know everything about cosmology that we do now. The fact that the person who wrote the account had a limited understanding doesn't take away from the work being inspired.

Hell is sepration from God. It is only literally fire for Muslim heretics b/c their religion is a fake excuse for dictatorship military conquests and controlling consanguous hordes

Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!

22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?

31 “Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?

....

40 The Lord said to Job:

2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”

And the "God" we've been discussing is one that can't even be bothered to fix even a single problem in the world that he doubtlessly himself has created (unless he's not omnipresent and isn't therefore the source through which all else has entered reality), in other words, a truly worthless example of both omnipotence and omnibenevolence. Your argument is that "because he wants you to, you should worship him", my position is "someone wanting me to do something is not enough for me to do so, and in this case the being in question has shown nothing deserving of such a gesture, compared to someone so small and limited as my own family doctor, who I'd actually have a reason to worship". Then again, you/Christians think anyone who wouldn't automatically prostrate before a higher being simply on the basis of "it wanting you to" makes you a "cringy free spirit". I'm sorry that I use my autonomy both of judgement and action for more reasoned purposes than volitional enslavement to an incompetent, omnipotent entity.

Somebody redpill me on the National Academy of Sciences. What is that shit

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>God can just shit on you bro, he's God!
yeah okay, cool God you have there

It is almost like people never read the book of Job

t. has commited no sins and is therefore unpunishable

God makes bet that involves Satan tormenting the fuck out of Job. Job suffers immensely but remains faithful to God during this ordeal. God is omniscient so he already knows Job is a loyal servant and Satan would lose this bet so what happened is God basically punked Job for no good reason while Satan got away with being evil.

Oh, was this your God who did this? You're sure that we ourselves can't simply be a single, uncreated, inseparable cosmic entity partaking in itself? No, no. Your Abrahamic scriptures, which don't even agree with eachother, describe the God that made all of this? :-) including the (still-expanding) list of diseases that we ourselves have to (continue to) toil away to cure ourselves of and until then nonetheless suffer and die from every day? Oh, how merciful!

Oh, the parts that can somewhat and however crudely correspond with reality, (or simply be believed on the basis of "faith"), are to be considered literally true, while the rest of it, which holds up to neither rational or empirical scrutiny can be casually and harmlessly disregarded as fable. The "imaginary, non-literal stories" also have "real, literal consequences", and you also somehow decide/knownwhich part falls under which. This is called "having your faith and eating it too". See Sure, and billions of people are "forever separated" from God every century, huh? And prior to a few thousand years ago, when these stories were first written, nobody was being sent anywhere? 200k years of modern humans living on this planet and it seems that only a few seconds ago did this process of soul-sorting begin.

Yes, you most certainly are. Yet you chose to be one, and can choose not to be one too. Never forget that.

They went to Sheol, or Hades. Or so the story goes. And once again, it could be argued that so long as the literature drives people to the correct action, it serves its purpose. Expedient means and all that. Much of what appears in the Bible needs to be read critically if one wants to find the underlying truths expressed in it. But for most people, it is enough to simply read and believe.

And what makes you believe in these literary texts in the first place, and moreso than those of other cultural mythologies or scriptural theologies?

you can just look it up
>As a national academy, new members of the organization are elected annually by current members, based on their distinguished and continuing achievements in original research. Election to the National Academy is one of the highest honors in the scientific field.

>muh galileo
Galileo wasn't some oppressed genius, he just threw a tantrum and called the Pope names when he wasn't getting the credit for his mediocre science. The idea that Galileo was oppressed by the Church because his ideas were heretical is just anglo protestant propaganda. Just like how people think the Inquisition burned people at the stake.

>god creates

getting real sick of this meme

I wanted a conspiracy not facts, nerd

Daily reminder that anyone who believes it's a choice is absolutely clueless about biology, the human species, and by extension themselves. I literally have to re-imagine what it was like being 6 years old to discourse on what it's like to be unreflective as that. It's that stage of growth somewhere between object permanence and the reality of other selves. Anyone still stuck there at 18 is, in the classical sense of the term, an idiot.

I believe it isn't a choice, but have only read cursory information to support that belief. Can you link me some solid scientific resources that I can use to BTFO anyone who claims otherwise?

Abridged version:

And then the Lord spoke
FUCK YOU
In assorted sarcasms.

And a vicious idiot as well.

The most correct way for us to live as humans is in accordance to the knowledge of good and evil. We should strive to avoid evil and embrace good. We can't understand God's workings so it's pointless in speculating why he created evil. To deny God because of the issue of evil is childish and pointless. We can't even understand what evil is nor its implications upon infinity(God's realm, the immaterial, etc.) Do you really think of yourself that you know better than God because you hate evil? The blot doesn't exist, we only perceive a part of the painting as a blot.

Homosexuality isn't a choice, friend. Words on paper, in Hebrew or Greek, don't change our reality, unfortunately. I wish it did, friend! We could just "write" all our problems out of existence! :) It would be so great. But life doesn't work that way, and some of us still haven't realized that.

show me da gay gene

this post is hilarious, because you don't even try to elaborate what you mean by
>biology
or
>the human species
you just call people who don't agree idiots, and make paeans to the authority of science which can't prove these things with any certainty either. Is race genetic too? Should we head down that path?

>he just discovered the world has always been shit
you just can't get over the fact that some people give up and become slaves to despair, which is obviously what happened to you. we live in a fallen world. in the 21st century, the pressures to renounce what is good (life and love) is stronger than it likely has ever been. Stronger might not be the right word. I should say more pervasive. But the Bible talks about a lot of these things. Most people serve mammon. Little wonder then that their purely worldly existences become miserable and they seem themselves only as a means to an end for somebody else. But this is a choice, and yes, it is a tough and arduous choice to go upstream rather than down. Certain people make that choice and renounce themselves and their lives to live outside of worldly misery. What will you do?

words in a peer-reviewed article written by some professor blasted on adderall to meet publishing quoats doesn't change our reality either
difference is that the
>words in hebrew or greek
have exerted cultural influence for millenia and have survived myriad social and economic changes. literature that is less than a century old does not have that going for it. sorry, kid. it's all opinion at the end of the day, I'll stick with the stuff that has cultural evolutionary fitness.

Lol, nice cope

>implying church fags wouldn't jump at the first scientific discovery of anything beyond the physical to say "hahah I told you so!!!!!"

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why would I care about """"scientific"""" evidence for something I already knew

So what does your God actually do? Doctors and scientists are here in this world, trying to cure diseases and reduce suffering. Your God could have prevented this from ever happening, but instead actually BRINGS it into the world as a punishment for a naive woman naturally being tricked by God's greatest enemy himself, that he of course didn't care enough to prevent from doing so. It feels enormously cringe-y to even have to speak of these myths as if they were literally descriptions of our world, but I'm speaking to your level. What now? Everyone just "come to Christ"? Is this our solution? If I have cancer, the doctors strive to rid me of it, your God himself created it (don't say he did not, if he isn't the source of everything he isn't omnipresent, and we can easily speak of trees, grass, animals, and anything else as being independently self-arising just like diseases are) and now I just have to wait until I die and to be free from the affliction? But nothing is done about it itself, if humans don't actively remove these ailments we'll suffer under them forever? And accepting Christ literally solves no human problems of any kind, not of disease nor famine nor climate nor resources nor war nor inquiry into reality nor anything else. The entire world could become Christian tomorrow and we'd see nothing different than what Western civilization has been for 2000 years, now applied to the whole world. This world will still be hell, the source and symptom of all the problems under the sun, and neither your God nor his Son will seemingly ever change this while we're stuck here. Just got to "believe", and socially enslave myself to a group of corrupt pedophiles that will hopefully give me "eternal life" after I die, meanwhile my own child staying behind in this world will still suffer from all the afflictions which your God will seemingly never bother solving, and this remaining so for every past generation and presumably every future one.

Why do we need your God for anything? What does he do for us? I cannot name even a single virtue to your belief system being followed, neither epistomologically, ethically, practically, socially or otherwise. Aside from the moral guidance of those scriptures, which can be just as well be found in many other cultural scriptures of the world, to greater degree, and without the metaphysical issues your own ones carry.

It's funny you say this because literally every Christian apologist I watch on the internet, and I do keep up with these areas, uses strictly scientific narratives to weasel their worldview into. God "caused" the Big Bang, he "guided" evolution, he "fine-tuned" the universe...you can't just use the actual religious theology anymore, because you presume nobody would trust those words on paper for their own sake anymore. You guys pick and choose the scientific narratives you believe in, such as using the above in your modern arguments while ignoring the present research done on biological homosexuality as being "unreal", a "choice", a persistent "error", etc.

I'm neither a materialist nor a STEMlord, but I certainly don't place words on paper (that is what they are, no matter how much value they might have, literary linguistic artistic historical cultural social and whatever else) written by human men from thousands of years ago before a reality I can directly observe and study, and which has already been done so. Why do you place your scriptures prior to the reality they exist in? I have no sides in any debate. If God were real, I'd accept it. If it's the Judeo-Christian God, I'd accept it. If homosexuality were as objectively unnatural and morally wrong as murder, I'd accept it. But the reasoning and experience I've used thus far has not led me to these positions, and certainly a book, speaking from no ground but itself, won't on it's own convince me so.

science fags looking for some positive motivation or purpose as to not kill myself

got any??

aight I'm gonna spend some time trying to answer this in good faith, because I think these are good questions, and frankly, as a person coming back to the Church, they are issues I am dealing with as well.
>Doctors and scientists are here in this world, trying to cure diseases and reduce suffering
First, a reminder that many diseases did not exist until humans lived in close proximity with livestock, which did not happen for most of human history until ... CIVILIZATION. which brings me to the next point.
>It feels enormously cringe-y to even have to speak of these myths as if they were literally descriptions of our world
The purpose of genesis, from an ontological perspective, is to describe the process by which humans became aware of "good and evil" and thereby the iron law that they will die one day. The implication is that before humans had this understanding of the inevitability of the future they were pure and sinless beings (this isn't historically accurate, but Moses had no modern understanding of anthropology), and that afterwards, the fear of death instilled in them all sorts of unsavory behaviors: pride, envy, shame (Adam and Eve cover themselves after partaking of the tree) etc. This view is actually reflected by modern psychology (terror management theory). Humans learn to hate the world they live in and it causes them to sin. Orthodox Christians believe that humans aren't inherently sinful per se, but that we inherited this knowledge of good and evil from Adam. That is the view I ascribe to, and I think it is perfectly metaphysically intuitive. And, following:
>If I have cancer, the doctors strive to rid me of it, your God himself created it
yes, indeed God created cancer, but before modern medicine there was no way to articulate what cancer was, and thus no way to lash out against one another or against God or against one's self for it existing. the knowledge did not exist. We hate the world because we know the world better than we ever have. Which brings me to:
>And accepting Christ literally solves no human problems of any kind, not of disease nor famine nor climate nor resources nor war... This world will still be hell, the source and symptom of all the problems under the sun
Accepting Christ solves these problems not by eliminating them but by helping one come to grips with them, and love others despite the fact that we know they exist. Christ came to earth to beat death, by dying. God loved humanity so much that he came to the earth as a man, in order to give man an absolute example of Love in the face of the horror of death.

Hope this helps. If it seems simple, that's because it pretty much is. It's not on the same plane as science.

see:

if you got depression you might need to unironically talk to someone, maybe a professional

lel

fag

the kierkegaard post isnt mine however

fuck you leave me alone

hi zeke it's me bubblemint ... hope ur alright.. genuinely funny posts u made there

Good good post user