My grandmother unironically thinks we have free will so I tried to tell her why we don't

yeah you enlightened self-hating retards are super intelligent! We need more beanlets and I think we have the go ahead to get chinks and poos to drive down engineering and programming wage-I MEAN increase diversity! Fuck you retards. Expect a lot more violence to happen.

What are you on about

You're right. I completely forgot about all those illegal engineers and programmers that venture into the country and steal jobs.

Your post is capitalism at work, though. Encouraged immigration does create more of a worker pool but at the same time it's the capitalists that take advantage of it and drive wages down or keep them static. It's not the immigrants. That's some serious capitalist propaganda which shifts blame from the ones who deserve to the ones you should be in solidarity with.

Old people are silly and stubborn, OP. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Some people just aren't ready to accept the fact that we live in a deterministic universe and that free will is an illusion. She'll come around when she wants to. It's ultimately her choice.

Why are we talking about politics?

>ones you should be in solidarity with.
I could be, if they stay in their own countries.

>Your post is capitalism at work,
here we go boys...

WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THIS THREAD?

Dispense with the idea of free will and our society become a rotting machine with no respect for individuality.

He forgot to take his meds. Or baiting. Either way non-sequitur.

Why? Capitalism is global.

It's an evil.

What are the ethical implications of free will being an illusion?

I would rather have capitalism were I can buy things I want and invest instead of communism were I can have only basic shit. Post communist live has only been bad for some and people in the west seem to cry a lot but don't manage their finances at all, though I will admit that ridiculous debt bondage burgers get due to education is shit, were I live we can't get a degree for free most of the time.

>itt: dumb teenagers who think they know everything underestimating people with vastly more life experience

She has no free will to stop believing in it, though.

Very few educated people would disagree with compatibilism at the very least.

I take it you believe in free will

You're right

What did she actually experience in that life which makes her an authority on anything? Most old people are stupid and simply obedient.

>You're right
It's okay, though. You didn't have any free will to decide against arguing with her.

Pretty much, and her rejecting of this idea that we have no free will was the cause of my volition to make this thread.

According to a determinist, we are all stupid and obedient and cannot act otherwise.

You are a brainlet. Under determinism the very concepts of stupidity and obedience are fallacious.

this isn't your blog

You are either a marxist or a natsoc i can't tell.
Hopefully natsoc

So determinism claims we can all make active decisions?

There is no such thing is a decision in the way that you mean. Would you call a leaf "obedient" when the wind causes it to move? All matter is "obedient" to the prior state of the universe, including the matter in your brain of course, but to call this obedience is attaching sentimentality to it. Obedience is a loaded word in this context.

>natsoc are socialist

Retards should be euthanised.

BASTE. I wish i could word myself as well as you.

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Imagine being an old person watching your country crumble around you and some stupid shit zoomer says some smug bullshit to you like, "Pretty sure that hasn't happened."

Imagine repeating bullshit you hear on a propaganda network in order to emotionally trigger you so the advertisers can get views and the country can remain at its capitalist status quo where the lower class continues to get shit on and the upper class keeps shifting the blame whilst reaping the benefits.

>Your post is capitalism at work, though. Encouraged immigration does create more of a worker pool but at the same time it's the capitalists that take advantage of it and drive wages down or keep them static. It's not the immigrants. That's some serious capitalist propaganda which shifts blame from the ones who deserve to the ones you should be in solidarity with.

>The invading soldier is not the primary beneficiary of the invasion -- his king is. You should be standing in solidarity with the soldier against war and tyranny. Therefore open your borders :)

everything has intrinsic qualities, a nature, that is only reacting to those prior events, and those prior events were all acting on intrinsic nature

this leaves literally no room for free will

People can endure being shit on as long as they feel like they have a meaningful place in the world, a sense of identity and community. Take that away and it doesn't matter how much economic reform you bring about. The place you're living won't be your home anymore, so what does it matter? But hey I guess money is all that matters, and that's what your true, totally unbiased news source has told you. I got a plastic phone from China so now my life has value.

imagine talking intellectually with your granny lmao

I mean your granny is a retard but so are you, non-white immigration into white nations has been the worst decision in our history, that and feminism.

B-b-but I watch unbiased news source like CNN and they said it was a good thing.

But they are, not in the marxist definition of socialism but in the true definition:
Socialism, from Lat. sociare = to combine, to unite.
They are socialists in that they believe that the individual must unite with his folk for the good of the nation.

>he doesn't realize he's been using the Marxist/historical materialist definition of capitalism in this very thread
What a self-btfo

That was someone else, this is my third post in this thread.

do people use the no free will meme as a cope so they feel better about being a failure, I've never seen a successful happy person claiming we don't have free will it's always just incels

Indeed
The determinism pill is a very freeing thing

Okay, my bad.

Fucking based

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You may be correct, in fact I think you are, in that unsuccessful people will be drawn to such a way of seeing things because it "takes the load off" a little. Yet that doesn't really make an argument against them, of course you need to go to those who are failed by a system (in this case that system being the fraudulent conception of this idea free will) to understand it's faults. Why would someone successful ever come to the conclusion that they in fact didn't earn anything they think they did when they've been told otherwise all their life and their very biology encourages them to feel deserving of these things?

even if we don't have free will accepting that has no value, it doesn't make anyones life better and I think if everyone right now just accepted we don't have free will a ton of people would just stop trying, what motivation could you possibly have to try if you're essentially just watching a movie with the illusion of choice the mindset of we don't have free will is one that only helps failures and hinders everyone else

Well I personally find it very freeing, as someone else just put it. I do try with things that matter to me sometimes, life hasn't changed much since I adopted this worldview really.
I'm kind of mixing metaphors here, but your post is like you telling the sisyphuses of the world to just keep pushing that rock because those "successful" people who are instead in a state of constant cake eating don't want to hear that they aren't special or better in any way.
I love determinism posting man, it seems to really get under the skin of normalfags way more than anything else, even actual extremist ideologies like actual nazism

do you find it freeing because you now hold no responsibility for your own failures?

Fearful Kantian detected.

Yes that is definitely a part of it, I worry a whole lot less about messing up. More importantly though I'm less likely to do things I don't want to do, for some perceived possible benefit long down the line. I'm not a complete hedonist, I'm not even a NEET I'm actually phoneposting from my "loser" job at a coffee shop right now. I don't really dream of "success" anymore is all, and admittedly it was more than just determinism that influenced this change in outlook but it certainly played an important role.
Realising how little control you have removes all the stress that so many people have from desperately trying to wrestle with a beast that they will never tame.

do you think you have more failures or accomplishments?

That's difficult to say now that my perception of those things is so different than it is for free willies.
On the one hand I can say I now have no failures because, well y'know "whatever will be, will be" and would have been regardless. However it's hard to completely shake that old mindset, and because I get more fulfillment from mundane things as I am able to see them as an end in and of themselves, e.g I fell for the self improvement meme and started working out just over a year ago (only some simple bodyweight stuff I could do from home) and I haven't stopped, because I genuinely quite enjoy it. I gave up on the calorie counting and on trying to reach new rep numbers, the literal endorphins I get are the reward now.

>I think if everyone right now just accepted we don't have free will a ton of people would just stop trying

Rationalizing that we have no free will won't rid us of our desires and ego.

>I haven't stopped, because I genuinely quite enjoy it.
unless I'm miss understand what you mean by we have free will wouldn't the reason you haven't stopped be because you have no choice?

so everything effects our choices but we can still decide what choice we make? sorry I'm kind of new to Yea Forums and I thought I understood what we have no free will meant but I guess not

Yes, I suppose so
I'm just so used to talking about things that way because the idea of free will and choice is so culturally ubiquitous it's basically built into the English language and probably most or all languages on the planet.
I may be aware intellectually of my lack of choice/ of entropy, but it's almost impossible to fully deprogram myself from that mindset

Sorry, i deleted the post because it was a really shitty one. I'm trying to make a new post. Stay tuned.

That guy isn't me, he seems like a soft determinist which is basically spooked af

As Baruch Spinoza says: "In the mind there is no absolute or free will, but the mind is DETERMINED to this or that choice, by a cause, which is also DETERMINED by another, and again by another and so to infinity"

So basically, your choices are made in "advance" if you will based on you, your conditioning, your mood, your environment, your knowledge, whatever, and you only reject or accept a "choice" based on what i previously stated. Example: So let's say you want some candy, but you just watched on TV the day before that candy is really bad for you, with this new knowledge your choice to not buy the candy has been determined.

Not at all, it was just a really shitty post, which is why i deleted it. I'm OP.

The problem with free will is that it reduces human creative freedom to instantaneous selection from a list of possibilities when it is an evolutionary process, with our self-creative freedom being in our ability to adapt and change over time, not make any particular choice in any given moment. This process of individual growth is molded by one's history and present but isn't constrained by it, as we can create possibilities that aren't actual from the actual; our very ability to imagine time allows us to change the future. We can do this for the past as well with counter-factual reasoning, proposing what might of happened if we had chosen differently, and thus learning from our actions.

The concept of free will is loaded with placing choice as the ultimate factor in self-creativity, and so instead I use "free inquiry" or "freedom of questioning" where questioning means not just the linguistic act but the whole sense of "requesting." This includes awareness itself as a request for sense-experience; imagine the focal point of your awareness usually corresponding to where your eyes are looking as an implicit question mark. Self-awareness is synonymous with self-questioning. A query is in a sense a trajectory of desire, and when we question our desires we are folding desire upon itself such that alternate desires can be generated, as well as alternate criteria for selecting desire. So human consciousness isn't merely a process of experiential evolution, but it is this very process that through the flexibility of human cognition is able to fold on itself, modifying the elements of its process with the elements of its process.

Fellow Catholics, please justify the doctrine of free will

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That's a really nice way of putting it, I like this.
I'm enjoying this thread a lot. Do you mind telling me which work that is from, I feel like I need to read more about this?

that makes sense user thanks, I think a lot of things influence your choices more than you do, but I still think you still have ultimate control over the choices as long as you're aware what's influencing them
e.g I went to the shop to get some chocolate but on the way there I saw on advert for how bad it is, then I get to the shop and 'decide' I don't want the chocolate but if I remember seeing the advert and realized that was influencing my choice then I could bypass it

so I guess I do believe in free will but not that you have complete control over your choices

That quite by Spinoza is from part 2 in his Ethics. Spinoza's Ethics. And i'm glad you enjoyed it, thanks user.

>but if I remember seeing the advert and realized that was influencing my choice then I could bypass it
But what caused you to be more aware of the cause of your volition? It is just an endless line of cause & effect, and we are cause blind. You are demonstrating it right here that you are cause blind. You are cause blind in regards to what has made you more aware of things that could influence your "choices". And thank you, i'm glad you are enjoying the thread.

I'm a Catholic but I don't believe in complete free-will. I find compatiblism quite interesting though.

Your grandmother was right you just make up excuses because you're too lazy to take command of yourself.

quote* not quite.

this is starting to mess with my head because you're right, something would have to trigger that memory unless I just had really good memory, but if I have really good memory it's down to me exercising, and I started exercising because of environment that's so weird

Yes, it is quite mindfucking honestly. It had to ferment in my head for a while.

It's impossible to be fully aware of ALL the information you're being bombarded with at every waking moment, you'd go completely mad. So you naturally block most of it out, like a bee sting after a few hours becoming less noticeable. However then you have to somehow explain the huge differences in life between everything, how can such diverse and varied experience have come about, this is where the idea of free will comes in

bump

You don't, but she does.

This is why you start with the Greeks, kids, so you don't dwell in such simplistic dichotomies as free will vs. determinism.

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It means she wants your D, OP.

Based and redpilled.

You can't prove determinism and your grandma has more reason to believe in free will

LMAO

-1 point from determinism

we dont have free will but it does exist
there are entities that have free will

Are you guys 12?

Watch this, i'm going to use my free will to call you a faggot.

Faggot.

You shouldn’t hate your grandmothers like this anons. Extended family is the most valuable thing a person can have, even more valuable than knowledge.

did you do that because you actually wanted to, or because you've been conditioned by your time on Yea Forums to call OP a faggot and you're just salivating at the bell like some pavlovian hound waiting for your celebratory (you)s? where is the free will in that, doggo?

Name one

>did you do that because you actually wanted to
yeah

I don’t believe in free will but I act as if I do just as I don’t believe in God but I act as if I do.

Reminder that free will is the final step in evolution.

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I feel this, I notice it with pretty much everyone I know, At the same time I don't want to be arrogant and start feeling that I'm above other people but at times its so transparent I can't help feeling this way.

Imagine being a materialist. HAHA!

How am I supposed to know, I dont have free will