Which books, exactly, started the myth of widespread and accepted homosexuality among classical greeks?

Beats me

No proof.
We know there was a similar level of widespread homosexuality as today in the late roman empire, and was criticized by many authors explaining also, with citations, how it wasn't like that in the past.
I made this thread to ask for books which started this myth, and to ask for precise quotes from ancient greek texts approving sodomy. Still no one posted them.
What is the relationship between Plutarch and men who lived 400 years before him? Considering that accurate storiography in the modern sense didn't exist before 1000 ad?
Also jfl at citing wikipedia. Read the actual texts

>pic
A unironic 'woke' liberal told the exact same criticism that the pic is doing. It is less that homosexuality is accepted back then, but homosexuality existed in some form back then

same thing happens with Walt Whitman. people cannot seperate the idea of the sensual from the sexual, i don't know if that's a recent development or what but it's annoying nonetheless.
that being said I've read firsthand accounts of gayness in greek literature. they weren't explicitly sexual, but they could easily be interpreted either way. the same does not go for Whitman considering he says himself the love he speaks of is greater than sexual attraction and doesn't write about explicit sex-making.
i don't think the greeks were attracted to each other sexually, but i think they viewed sexuality in different terms. by modern standards they were homosexual, but why would someone read the Greeks and interpret them through a contemporary lens?

>Also jfl at citing wikipedia. Read the actual texts
You're not citing anything more substantive that actually refutes modern historiography on the topic. You just seem to want to return to the pre-19th century status of avoidance of the topic.
See "L'homosexualité initiatique dans l'Europe ancienne"

face it, its always been there and men in power used their power to get away with it, and the only way that power is useful is if they make pedants like you believe it couldn't be possible so their power translates into control

>Plato said...
Holy cherrypick, Batman. Plato's work consists of a litany of subtle and explicit references to male-male sexual-romantic attraction, say, between Alcibiades and Socrates in the Symposium. Plato has poetry dedicated to the beauty of young men, detailing how irresistible they are. Laws was written in old age, when the gay community was not likely allowing him to hit anymore (just like they hate aged people today, some thing don't change), and so he now starts writing lines about how "i-it's against nature, bros". As someone else here put it: "typical boylover mad he couldn't get any anymore". Laws is a cope, by an aged and disgruntled Plato. Symposium also confirms that many political elites were attracted towards men, and therefore had power in society.

What's next? Are you going to pretend that Shakespeare wasn't bisexual? Are we going to pretend like the entire Western canon isn't the product of non-hetero femboys? Is this going to be retconned too?

>its a plausible deniability equals fact episode
for me, that's a yikes

I don't care about liberals or conservatives, I'm apolitical. I didn't make the picture, I just thought it was good to grab attention to the topic.
>that being said I've read firsthand accounts of gayness in greek literature. they weren't explicitly sexual, but they could easily be interpreted either way. the same does not go for Whitman considering he says himself the love he speaks of is greater than sexual attraction and doesn't write about explicit sex-making.
i don't think the greeks were attracted to each other sexually, but i think they viewed sexuality in different terms. by modern standards they were homosexual, but why would someone read the Greeks and interpret them through a contemporary lens?
Post those exact quotes, in both greek and english.
It's modern historiography that must provide proofs. They never did, not a single time
Yikes!
>between Alcibiades and Socrates in the Symposium
Which is exactly the passage in which sodomy is criticized because it spoils the platonic, spiritual, non-sexual, brotherly love between two men?
>Laws was written in old age, when the gay community was not likely allowing him to hit anymore (just like they hate aged people today, some thing don't change), and so he now starts writing lines about how "i-it's against nature, bros". As someone else here put it: "typical boylover mad he couldn't get any anymore". Laws is a cope, by an aged and disgruntled Plato. Symposium also confirms that many political elites were attracted towards men, and therefore had power in society.
Rambling
>Are you going to pretend that Shakespeare wasn't bisexual?
No such a thing as Shakespeare and irrelevant to the topic at hand
>Are we going to pretend like the entire Western canon isn't the product of non-hetero femboys?
Greeks aren't western

Applying the notion of homosexuality to pre-19th century is anachronistic and fucking retarded.

ya it was just dudes cumming on eachother back then, plain and simple, as god intended, no politics or semiology about it

>I don't care about liberals or conservatives, I'm apolitical. I didn't make the picture, I just thought it was good to grab attention to the topic.
Yes well whoever made the pic are probably strawmanning the libtards. They just wanted to show that what Greeks found to be acceptable (pederasty) would be homosexual in modern times.

>Greeks aren't western
W E W L A D
E
W

L
A
D

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why would i do that? I'm having a discussion with the other guy, I could not care less whether you think greeks were fags or not honestly. if you want to learn more about the greeks go read them yourself instead of poltier infographics and wikipedia
besides that there are multiple anons already quoting direct passages of gayness. talk to them lol

We have almost nothing in commong with greeks or romans. May as well say that persians are western canon
cope

There probably were social constructions/inhibitions around it but to map them onto contemporary homosexuality is so fucking retarded it hurts

>/pol/tard reveals themselves as having never read Plato
cringe... when are the defenders of western civilisation going to get around to reading its foundational texts... you can blame translations, but when you read the greek originals you can't get around the presence of the words "pederastia", "eromenos" and "erastes" -- the root word being eros, rather than philia.
Your diminution of the erotic is modern rather than traditional. And Whitman literally dated a 13 year old boy. If you want to own the libs, bring up his pederasty rather than pretend he was some sexless sterile thing.
>I don't think the greeks were
How did they reproduce retard? Or do you mean that no Greek male ever had a sexual sensation in response to another Greek male? Read Plato's dialogue Charmides. Part of the dialogue's theme is demonstrated in Socrates not acting on the excitement he feels at seeing Charmides' attractive body behind his toga.

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>i get all my information from Yea Forums and wikipedia: the post
Maybe try reading books sometime instead of Anonymous and Larry with 10k contributions, neither of which are reputable sources of information

>Some crowley shit
Subversive degenerate, deliberate transgressor of morality detected

Eros didn'timply sexual tension.
>Part of the dialogue's theme is demonstrated in Socrates not acting on the excitement he feels at seeing Charmides' attractive body behind his toga.
Holy shit the retconning
Ok, hit me up with sources next time

discord tranny

There's also the story where Zeus captures the farm boy Ganymede and takes him to Mount Olympus to preserve his youth forever, making Hera jealous. Anal penetration was frowned upon as a sex act, but intercrural (thigh) sex was practiced.

in the sense there's no frame in western culture to correctly appreciate the thai ladyboy cultural phenomenon, sure, but that's such broad "you'll never understand because you weren't born with it" naturalist pedantry as to be useless to critical thinking. boys been bumming forever

I'm agnostic in the debate otherwise, I'm just here to call both sides of idpol "people" retarded

i accept your defeat

How old are you? Answer honestly, and post a timestamped picture of your body. I want to prove something

Bitch the greeks literally started the whole idea of 'western canon' shit

Arguably much of the 'homoerotic' side (though such a term is inherently anachronistic) has been suppressed or obscured throughout history. Just look at the treatment of someone like Sappho, for instance– after all the christian book-burning and purging of her queer identity from history, only John Donne was aware of the historical revisionism that disavowed Sappho's lesbian eroticism.

too, no

You literal know nothing and you're probably underage. Please follow this exact same procedure Christians were way more tolerant of sodomy (which meant all non-strict heterosexual acts made not for the purpose of reproduction, including even zoophilia and necrophilia) than previous society were.
If you committed sodomy you only had to pay a monetary fine. In pagans societies you could get killed. For examples, the saxons and the baltic tribes burned those who committed sodomy alive. In ancient greece, those who committed sodomy could be sentenced to death if they refused to comply with laws which restricted their rights.
Something tells me you are underage and have a weak, skinnyfat body. I'd like to remind you have to be at least 18 to post on 4channel.org

i've fucked more women than you ever see tits total and by my hepatitis you'll respect my intimate understanding of how much people love things in their asses

but yes i'm still skinnyfat

Then you should have no trouble following this procedure:

cringe cringe cringe cringe cringe and bluepilled

Then you are disqualified from partecipating in this thread, since a weak, skinnyfat, ugly body is a symptom of an ugly mind which could not comprehend the mentality of ancient greek men. Please go to another thread and have fun! If you want to remain here, please use a tripcodem so I can filter your eventual useless reply

>Eros didn'timply sexual tension.
what? Eros was the word for the passionate and sexual form of love. Plato's dialogue 'Lysis' is all about what distinguishes 'eros' from 'philia', and as an example he uses an older boy who has and wants to read him a love poem, and contrasts it with the friendship of that boy and his best friend.
>Holy shit the retconning
What? Charmides is a dialogue on the theme of temperance. Socrates but not acting on it is an example of temperance. And how do you think it was retconned? In interpretation, or did people actually forge the text?
Here it is quoted, Donald Watt translation:
>In the event Charmides came and sat between me and Critias. Well, by then, my friend, I was in difficulties, and the self-assurance I'd felt earlier that I'd talk to him quite easily had been knocked out of me. Wen Critias told him I was the man who knew of the remedy, he gave me a look that is impossible to describe and made ready to ask me something. Everyone in the wrestling-school swarmed all around us. That was the moment, my noble friend, when I saw what was inside his cloak. I was on fire, I lost my head, and I considered Cydias to be the wisest man in the matters of love. When speaking of a handsome boy, he said, by way of advice to someone, 'Take care not to go as a fawn into the presence of a lion and be snatched as a portion of meat. I felt I'd been caught by just such a creature. All the same, when Charmides asked me whether I knew the remedy for his headaches, I somehow managed to answer that I did.
And just in case you think this is just a matter of translation, here scene as rendered by by Jowett, who was a Christian who didn't believe that Plato promoted homosexuality:
>O rare! I caught a sight of the inwards of his garment, and took the flame. Then I could no longer contain myself. I thought how well Cydias understood the nature of love, when, in speaking of a fair youth, he warns some one "not to bring the fawn in the sight of the lion to be devoured by him," for I felt that I had been overcome by a sort of wild-beast appetite. But I controlled myself, and when he asked me if I knew the cure of the headache, I answered, but with an effort, that I did know.

Note that there is a difference between arguing about whether we can say the modern day "homosexual" represents the same phenomena as the Greek "lover", and whether or not the Greeks partook in male-male sexual activity, the latter of which seems to be what OP is contesting.

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threed ////

ad hominem, thanks for playing

sparknotes.com/philosophy/symposium/section13/

And yet Alcibiades continues trying to seduce Socrates throughout, the two of them later laying on a couch together? It's almost like Plato uses different characters to advance different views, and not any one or the other is completely his own? Socrates saying that could be used to highlight something for his character, while another's character is written to showcase something else Plato wanted to display? You know Socrates is described by Plato's hand as being "boy-crazy", losing his senses in the presence of beautiful young boys, having to restrain himself from pursuing them? Why did Plato have Socrates shun male sexual love in the Symposium, while also writing him as a shameless pederast (which Xenophon confirms)? It's almost like there's nuance here...

They mostly raped boys and slaves. Pakis and Afgans do the same to this day.

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>please stop fucking on the couch, this is a school
lol

>Greeks aren't western

lmao

This is the problem with average poltard. Everything that White and White Civilization means is some shitcoctail of Anglo-German depravity and depravedness.

I'm not an expert in Greek history, but I remember someone saying that each Greek city had its own culture, that some accepted homosexuality and some didn't.

As for the philosophers, it depends on what you define by homosexuality.
If you mean "attracting to those of the same gender", they were OK with it. Many texts mention attraction to other men.
If you mean "homosexual sex acts", they opposed it, dues to its hedonistic nature. They were all for self-control.

Socrates was attracted to Alcibiades, but by refusing to sleep with him, he has shown self-control, temperance. That he valued virtue more than he valued pleasure.

So homosexuality was thought to be non-virtuous

No, but homosex was.

no proof that it was sexual, only great friendships

I just explained above that Plato's writing isn't so banal...he interweaves many commentaries through many characters...Socrates is there shown to pursue temperance over physical attractions, and is virtuous for doing so. This says nothing regarding Plato's views on homosexuality or pederasty, which if true you'd imagine him not even writing about Socrates going ecstatic at the sight of young boys or Alcibiades lusting after Socrates and them lying down together in the first place. His dialogues are not simple teaching manuals, with a specific perspective either praised or condemned.

Nobody on Yea Forums or even /lgbt/ is trying to "retcon" the Greeks into being very into male-male attraction. We speak of it because it's blatantly there, and anyone who has actually read into these texts or looked into these cultures can see that. The only retcon is seemingly by Christians who cannot stomach to know that the non-hetero modes of living they have so much hatred towards were promoted by the very same figures who gave them their own theologies. You guys are the ones with the agenda, not us.

>Which books, exactly, started
>FUCK SHIT SHIT FUCK /pol/ FUCK SHIT I HATE MY DAD FUCK SHIT /pol/
>*posts two passages of plato and whines about walt whitman*
>as you can see all greeks were faggots!
well its pretty obvious from this thread that not only were the greeks probably not gay but that these matters are life and death to the trannies. Kill yourselves while you can before we begin stomping you broken animals in the streets

Imagine caring this much lmao. You're a sick faggot, your family wishes that you were dead, most people think you're annoying (at BEST!), and you're going to live a shitty life of pain hahahahahaha

Again, Socrates was shown to be attracted to men but also was shown to be above his attraction. He was homosexual, but was against sodomy.

As for what Plato thought about homosexual conduct:

>we must not forget that this pleasure is held to have been granted by nature to male and female when conjoined for the work of procreation; the crime of male with male, or female with female, is an outrage on nature and a capital surrender to lust of pleasure.
>That was exactly my own meaning when I said I knew of a device for establishing this law of restricting procreative intercourse to its natural function by abstention from congress with our own sex, with its deliberate murder of the race and its wasting of the seed of life on a stony and rocky soil, where it will never take root and bear its natural fruit, and equal abstention from any female field whence you would desire no harvest

Again, Socrates was shown to be attracted to men but also was shown to be above his attraction. He was attracted to men, but was against sodomy.

As for what Plato thought about homosexual conduct:

>we must not forget that this pleasure is held to have been granted by nature to male and female when conjoined for the work of procreation; the crime of male with male, or female with female, is an outrage on nature and a capital surrender to lust of pleasure.
>That was exactly my own meaning when I said I knew of a device for establishing this law of restricting procreative intercourse to its natural function by abstention from congress with our own sex, with its deliberate murder of the race and its wasting of the seed of life on a stony and rocky soil, where it will never take root and bear its natural fruit, and equal abstention from any female field whence you would desire no harvest

>We wuz hating gays and shit
Oh look, another /pol/ macro trying to distort history again

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n-no homo

This thread was doomed from the start. Why did you anons even respond?

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>this much cope
We rule Western civilisation now sweetie. How can straight "men" be so low test that they lose control of their culture to a bunch of queers and sissies?

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I'm not even gay. Your camp is the one so obsessed with homosexuality that you spend your time making infographics like the one above and starting threads like this. I literally couldn't care less about what the Greek sexuality was like. The same can't be said of Christians. I'm only here to prevent you guys from retconning a fairly established history.

Not merely men, but young boys. And again, Plato might have said that in one place, at one stage of his life, while written much which alludes to contrary attitudes elsewhere. Viewing the dialogues as a whole, one couldn't pin his views to any simple position. He wasn't Aristotle, he didn't write from the first-person, his dialogues do not allow for such reductions of their author's perspectives.

>while written much which alludes to contrary attitudes elsewhere
Not really.
Plato's philosophy was not hedonistic.

Is it gay to pound the butthole of a sexy young femboy who looks like a girl?

You mention “crime of homosexuality” What is that? Is it loving other men romantically, which need not technically include sodomy at all? Or are you speaking of sodomy only, which would probably make more heterosexuals than there are even homosexuals in population terms “degenerate,” according to your criteria. Furthermore, what the fuck does that story about the anus have to do with what follows?

>Plato's philosophy was not hedonistic.
In a strict sense it was. Personal happiness and, to a degree, worldly success, was synonymous with virtue -- the inverse of Christianity. The aim of philosophy, in Socrates' eyes, was achieving eudaimonia.

By hedonism, I mean someone who values physical pleasure as the good.
And Plato didn't think "worldly success" was virtue, as seen many times in the Republic.

From what little I understand, the one receiving would be considered the "gay" one.

>Christians were way more tolerant of sodomy (which meant all non-strict heterosexual acts made not for the purpose of reproduction, including even zoophilia and necrophilia) than previous society were.
This level of revisionism is actually astonishing

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