Why are the upper class of today cultureless fucking retards...

La bourgeoisie, bien sûr.

Read Adorno and Nietzsche. That's literally it.

In the old days it was necessary for the elite to create aesthetic objects to be put on a pedestal. Now that endeavour is entirely irrelevant, thanks to mass culture.

social mobility happened

not really, since what OP is referring to is literally Marx.

is there a question one can ask on this board without you fags replying with marx?

This; it's a new rich thing. A person or family who used to be poor/middle class still retains a lot of their 'normal person' culture - not to mention the usual desire to 'prove' themselves by spending money on dumb, flashy opulent shit without the proper investment or culture to maintain their lifestyles, or to match the culture of wealth they've fallen into.

Look at Gatsby as a pretty good example: people loved his parties, yes, but the West Egg people looked down on him. The established families were just as degenerate, sure, but they knew how to act and dress and appear to be better than others.

Also this

Sorry anglo. I will leave you to your superior analytics.

A media environment hostile to exclusivity and its markers. Animal House and Caddyshack are prime examples of this, where an exclusive and functioning society is destroyed so the lower classes can do kegstands on its grave. And nobody wants to be the snooty bad guy, so they abandon the button down frat in exchange for the chugging down frat.

i'm austrian

the aristocrats in the past had maybe 0.001% of the stuff we have today, and most of what they had was highly influenced by morbid religiosity. they were forced to read higher quality books. death surrounded them, they had fewer sense pleasures available to them, they had religion. essentially, they were slaves to their religions and the culture they grew up in and even the literature that they read. people now have a greater degree of freedom and they tend to spend it on what feels most pleasant, which for most people for all of time has mostly been social interaction and food. food generally lacks any of the inauthentic pretension that most literature has and this probably appeals to people. also, in the past most people who read lots of long books for long periods of time were only doing so because there was nothing else to do. this culture is absolutely superior to all other cultures in the past and present because it allows for freedom.

Democracy was a mistake. That's the simplest answer. We need to bring back the aristocracy. The French Revolution was an enormous catastrophe.

This is a great question, and rests on an acute observation of present versus previous aristocratic culture. The rich of today, though still financially distinct from the rest of us, engage in the same behaviors. Rather, everyone simply engages in the same. Social media has homogenized individual expression -

And glamorized one single brand of lifestyle - beaches, online presence and following, etc - which everyone, rich or poor, try to align themselves to. An ad appeared and prevented me from finishing the earlier comment, had to split it in two.

The upper class of today is simply silent.
Back when, you knew what the patricians were doing since they were largely in control of the arts.
Now that the lower-middle class has control of the media and the news for the most part (the latter serving the lower-middle perhaps not in control by).
The great swathes of information are pushed by the middle and working classes via social media for example, wherein the upper classes still use printing presses in an exclusive audience, to the point now where they appear invisible to the common consumer.
If you asked the average person where to find a good suit they may find 'retailer' but if you asked the upper class, he'd probably have a remote 'guy' in some Milan penthouse doing his tailoring.
These specialists do not need to market to the masses or be heard to such an extent, their reputation in these circles precedes them.

The rich kids you see on instagram aren't upper class. The upper class don't dwell in plebian circuits like that, unless they have to (politicians, popular personalities).

Read the Frankfurt School Chads

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>im sure some pomo faggot wrote an entire incomprehensible book about this
My master's thesis desu

There's no upper class. The wealthy aren't upper class.

This is correct. I come from a blue collar background, but now do photography for some of the biggest furniture and design showrooms in Los Angeles, and the best of the best aren't putting their work on stores to be seen, or even advertising. They come to you and do entirely custom work. But you have to be in that world to know of them

The proletariat is not busy enough.
They can get based media on the web. They can create a new avant garde. Pretty girls are abundant.

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tfw the elite have secret parties and laugh at us

Did people outside of the elite really know what was going on, ever, though? Many more families only became literate fairly recently.

I think that's another question entirely.
You know what people like George Soros is up to, but to fathom, where, how exactly and to what end is up to speculation.
Check out the Streisand effect. Occasionally we get leaks from the top from incompetent middlemen (or WikiLeaks), but most people either don't have time or care about these people's motives, or the media simply puts more attention on Paris Hilton being a whore and their desire to see executed royalty is satiated for a moment. I too, can only guess.
What I do know however is that one way into the upper class is to be extraordinary of a tool or conversation (intellectuals, accountant etc.)
One commonality with upper class people is that their reward system seems to be completely different to plebians (whose major dopamine hits come from sex or hard drugs), what that is, could be the answer to why keeping quiet is so advisable. I have a vague thought that most of these upper class folk live strictly epicurean lifestyles, simply with heaps of cash to smooth out their leisure.

>this culture is absolutely superior to all other cultures in the past and present because it allows for freedom.
Every word of this sentence is wrong.

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This

fools thinking that IQ=intelligence/wisdom, and the speed of making money in our merchant/Jew society=virtue are two of the major problems that result in our boring hellscape. You're all responsible

>Now that the lower-middle class has control of the media and the news for the most part
This is probably less true than it's been since the days of Swift. Conde Nast is still owned by the Newhouses, the Hearsts still have a sizable interest in their eponymous company, Anderson Cooper is a Vanderbilt, Rupert Murdoch still owns Fox News, Carlos Slim owns the NYT, Bezos the Washington Post, etc.

I don't see many plebs at Glynebourne. I think the problem is you don't actually know any upper class people

who owns Alex Jones though

You may be confusing upper class with rich.

If you want to know the completely arbitrary ways in which favor and taste is distributed in the upper class, the Duke of Saint-Simon's diary is essential reading
amazon.com/Memoirs-Duc-Saint-Simon-1691-1709-Presented/dp/B005IUMVVI

When education no longer became a means to distinguish between classes they switched to pure materialism.

If only you read one sentence more

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>the aristocrats in the past had maybe 0.001% of the stuff we have today
Does your house look like this?

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yes

every other culture condemns nearly all people to death

can I come over?

culture is slavery

I'm upper class and rich and I'm not retarded.

sure why not

>Believing we have 'freedom'
>believing we don't live in an inescapable materialistic hellscape

i meant that, compared to today, there was barely any literature, art, or music, and that even aristocrats had access to almost none of it, compared to today

i think that we live between freedom and slavery and that moving towards culture (i.e. society) is moving towards slavery and that most people don't want to escape

God

I don't think the conspiracy theories in this thread hold much water.

>compared to today, there was barely any literature
Does your library look like this?

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That's what needs to be done in order for said culture to escape obliteration itself.

consumerism leads to this

>this culture is absolutely superior to all other cultures in the past and present because it allows for freedom.
Imagine unironically thinking that.

That's literally just wikipedia before internet.

what other culture has a freer population?

You guys are a bunch of fucking retards the upper classes have always been trendy and anxious to be seen as trendy and being into "the latest thing".

Reading german autist philosofers was "in" back in the day, going to the Opera/theater was more about being seen there and having a good( expensive) spot. Also back then everyone who has access to book read more in general since they didn't have much else to do.

If you autists had read any 19th century litterature you would know this.

The notion that freedom for all = superior is perhaps right if you were measuring freedom but culture isn't freedom for all. Culture doesn't concern freedom at all. Can slaves have a good culture? Well yes absolutely. So your notion is based on a silly premise.

Culture is an expression of the people and their ideas.
Freeing people and having 90% of people just consume instead of using the tools that are out there isn't/doesn't lead to a superior culture.

>he thinks he's free
lmao

Christopher Lasch is all about this, check out Culture of Narcissism and then maybe The Revolt of the Elites if you want something a bit more political.

He talks at length about how various socio-cultural changes have resulted in a wealthy, educated, "rootless" aristocracy of the world, who balks at claims of national decline or cultural malaise. But unlike the old aristocracy, who were bound by matters of faith, duty, and privilege to uphold particular obligations to their subjects, this new aristocracy are only obliged to themselves in the liberal arena.

He basically called the whole political realignment we see today (where left vs. right is being supplanted by populist vs. internationalist) back in 1970.

i don't think that i am free, i just think that i am freer than most

It has always been about power games. Trends and whatnot. The trendy followers have always been dumb and pretending to be smart says it all. It's not like they didn't talk about their castles, new dresses and such.

The upper class has always sucked. Most people of any class have always sucked. An upper class gentleman in the 19th century would spend all day in his club getting hammered and playing whist. Now they post pictures of themselves on instagram and go to dancing.

Upper/middle class people in the past would learn just enough literature to drop references in conversation.

In the renaissance people would mine books and copy out quotations and memorize them for future use so they could seem well-read in obscure stuff.

It's no different from idiots today who read the Atlantic and spout off articles point-by-point as if they have a command of the subject.

True patricians have always been a minority and they've always felt alienated. You'd know that if you read any of them.

i think that culture's primary concern is freedom. our culture is superior because its barely a culture at all. culture is for slaves. freeing people may lead to decadence and nihilism but it's still better than mass slavery. the only reason that culture doesn't deserve to be smitten from the earth is because it can evolve into a stable and free world.

i might be wrong, i just hate slavery

>Education has been made avaliable to plebs for free, that was a big mistake.

Have you ever been in a public school in a poor area? There is no education happening at all.

Replace upper class with middle class and you're right but the true upper class is not of which you speak of.

Insightful, have a (you)

No, the upper class of inherited wealth were not all sitting around writing verses in Ancient Greek. If anything the wealthy middle classes were more likely to do shit like that because they had more to prove.

well in War and Peace the nobles do stuff like that
which settles the matter

WRONG

>culture
What are you specifically referring to?

I think you've run into a definition argument.

>our culture is superior because its barely a culture at all.
How can our culture be superior if it is less of a culture than the past ones?

To me freeing people and mass education has lead to a dilution of culture. Instead of liberating them, it's torn down everybody else into some horrific mass consumption culture so that culture has broken down.

>the only reason that culture doesn't deserve to be smitten from the earth is because it can evolve into a stable and free world.
You are writing from a very 21st century perspective and probably think we live in some kind of enlightened times and that the past was some terrible bad evil place.
It is folly. The ancient past was just as good as now and the people just the same. Change your perspective or at least try to.

i'm definitely correct because my music sounds like nothing else to such a degree that it is more likely that it doesn't exist

>>To me freeing people and mass education has lead to a dilution of culture. Instead of liberating them, it's torn down everybody else into some horrific mass consumption culture so that culture has broken down.
This, 100%

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What you mean is the middle class, and yes they are utter plebs. The reason I think is because our system is evolved to select obedience as the main positive trait of an individual, exulting people who are timid, hedonistic, intelligent but not wise, and who want their economic status mainly in order to look down on the working class whom they despise.

Most of these people pretend to be into high culture because of the stereotypes you mentioned. That's also why they travel the world and drink wine and pretend to enjoy Shakespeare and still watch films about the Holocaust and very much want their kids to go to college. They wish they were like the old European aristocracy, but fear that they may be not very much different than your average joe.

even if freedom is abused, it is still the ideal and a traditionalist society is hell on earth

Not any of them. I just want you to consider, user, that this type of liberty you speak of has no intrinsic good in it and that it’s existence shouldn’t be justified just because of freedom
If such freedom brings no betterment, it can very well be discarded

>Implying I'm talking about slavery
The fact is that the majority of the world, throughout history, has never been educated and this produced the baseline for what we deem culture, or how we consider people cultured. The people who could afford to not have to have their children work on farms or learn a trade had the time and the energy and the education to create, commission, and appreciate works of art, and form culture around things like this. And it worked. Even when the gaps between classes was lessening, there were still those who learned, and those who worked. The lower people could look up to the art and culture of those higher than them and aspire to something. The wealthy, cultured class could look to the lower for inspiration, or for differentiation, and crate things from there.

Now, however, we live in a time and place where the baseline education is barely enough to truly mean something, but certainly enough to tear through what could be considered "high" art in favor of pop drivel and trends that are born and die faster than bacteria. College learning is literally worthless, or will be very soon, here in the West because everyone has it. There is more competition and still a lower percent of people who even care about futhering their education, instead of getting a diploma to say they have one.

Education =/= freedom. The former is often a step towards the latter, but not always. It's not for everyone. All it's done is compress the classes culturally, even while the gaps between them have grown economically. All its done is turn education into a battering ram against the high culture that was once its goal.

>What happened to the times when the aristocrats and patricians were reading high brow literature and all of them were speaking French?
This never existed.

a society that only works because it deprives some of education is utterly unworthy of existence

Books about this topic P L E A S E

brainlet

Why?

because the only reason the lower classes are supporting it is because they are ignorant and the only reason it's able to survive at all is because of the lower classes

There is no argument here. What is your point?

The argument is that a society that is only able to exist because of lies and exploitation is unjust and that something that is unjust ought to be rectified

>lists a bunch of new money

ah yes, the no true patrician argument

Yes it makes sense. I'm tired but just want to add that this is peculiar to the age we are living in now, and it's probably but not exclusively a western thing. Something to do with the work ethic, secularism, materialism.

True but bringing back the ancient regime will only provoke another revolution.

You say this, yet you live in a society

The lower classes are ignorant, specifically, of the characteristics and value of true education. They are manipulated into believing that they possess a good that they do not. So the solution is: to remove from them both the illusion and the vestiges of the good?

Rather than remove the good altogether (finding it unworthy of existence), should we not transform the illusion of the good into the real thing?

>Why are the upper class of today cultureless fucking retards?
any retard today can be rich, you don't have to be smart just sneaky and determined

Explain why freedom is good

By "freeing" people from culture we have just made everyone slaves to base desires

But this is literally what Marx discusses....

slightly laughed out loud

transforming the illusion of the good into the real thing would be everyone somehow becoming wise and good and this could only be done through education

freedom is good because it allows someone to be what they want to be and if everyone is who they want to be then people become fulfilled and glad that they exist.

no, we have given more people the ability to live more truly, rather than just being well-behaved slaves who are just afraid of hell. even if it creates more chaos, the good of it outweighs the bad.

I can assure you that if anyone in this thread were to be given a stead 8mil a month paycheck, they wouldn't go to opera shows, learn French, or explore the ocean like the wealthy of diyestercentury. They'd probably go on Yea Forums, brag, and then watch a video review on a book they're too lazy to read.

Because America

In America, upper class means rich, and nothing but that.

It's the opposite. Read Murray's Coming Apart. The cerebal division of the American classes has created a high and low culture that didn't used to exist.

>What happened to the times when the aristocrats and patricians were reading high brow literature and all of them were speaking French?

Are you Russian or something? If so, the answer is the October revolution lol

counterpoint: almost everyone in this thread is prole with no personal contacts to the elite, you're running your mouths without having any idea whether OP's premise is even true, which it only half is

there are lots of moneyed people still reading books, still going to the symphony, the theater, private art collections of other rich snobs. they have less power relative to what they used to but they still exist

Yeah, I still go to concerts every holiday because it's just a habit of mine. My rich friends prefer to lounge on boats. In general, we're more hardworking than the average joe so we don't spend as much time doing social media and all that nonsense unlike what OP claims. Really shows what kind of person he is though.

Logical positivism, death of virtue ethics and aesthetics.

Kierkegaard Present Age is the one, fren

If everything is free, everything is equal. If everything is equal nothing is special. If nothing is special, well Nihilism. I wish I could venerate a shitty old cup and feel like my life is something special because it sits in my cave.

YouTube is for disgusting normalshits

everyone has always been a cultureless retard. the poor were always retards and the upper class were always poseurs and just read books for show and as a fashion statement and today books are not as trendy anymore. there are only a select few of people that are capable of intellectual thought and that have a true appreciation for art.

imagine thinking even a single rich person cares about muh 100 year old philosophy turf wars

The upper class of today is compromised of jews and their shabbos goyim tools who are easily controlled by media and money, that's why. Our elite is an alien race from the desert that gives fuck all about the high culture of the host race they wish to parasite off of. The erosion of the European elite was a slow process whose decline ensued alongside the increase in jewish power.

Private schools aren't that much better. They want you to score well in the SATs and get them a reputation, not turn you into a man of culture and discernment.

>we are free and above natural aristocracy

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>thinking a school can turn you into a man of culture
it never even began 4 u

>there are lots of moneyed people still reading books, still going to the symphony, the theater, private art collections of other rich snobs. they have less power relative to what they used to but they still exist

Maybe but the 'elite' is now centered around those who made an impact in extremely low-end culture which resulted in them getting rich. See Jay-Z or any other rapper for example.
That emphasis on heavily debased popular culture has made it the standard of how people are evaluated socially.
I attend classical music performances in Baltimore and around the state and the audience is mostly older people. As they die off the hidden supporters of high-culture your refer to won't have any institutions to support their interests.

How?

it has always been this way, except the mode of vanity was higher brow because they didn't have the internet or cellphones. Look at the Victorians for example. Nothing but plebbery at the highest of classes yet they tout around Newton and Browning like they're trophies because that was what was popular. Don't be retarded

youtu.be/8qrriKcwvlY

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>I attend classical music performances in Baltimore and around the state and the audience is mostly older people. As they die off the hidden supporters of high-culture your refer to won't have any institutions to support their interests.

This is what frightens me most - not just with things like classical music, but with many cultured arts and hobbies. Classical music, in fact, might even be the safest, if only because it tends to be the be-all-end-all when people who want to play music seriously/professional practice and perform.

Is there anything less 'cultured' than paranoiac conspiracies about da joos?

ITT: Poor pseudointellectuals getting butthurt that rich upperclass are actually enjoying life fucking on yachts and drinking champagne rather than reading books and learning a useless language

>the goal is not to separate themselves on any sort of 'spiritual' level from the lower class, but entirely on a material level
Good post

This exactly. The nouveau riche identifies and differentiates themselves through the tangible and corporeal since education, preceived intelligence and even etiquette (to a certain degree) have stopped being indicators of class and socioeconomic standings since they have been more attainable to the lower classes. Not to say that there isn't still a correlation between education and class but the world today has blurred the lines.

Its also a boon to upper class people if lower class people believe they are somehow the same. Musk is always doing stuff in and out of public to seem like a normal guy who just works really hard when he's actually weird as fuck.

If you mean the actual upper class, then it’s nothing new. When you have enough money to do whatever you want, you can signal status by owning and doing cool shit like yachts, horses and vineyards. Look at the aristocrats who patronized famous artists. They weren’t some enlightened class of intellectuals. They wanted novel music and impressive displays to show off. Read “Class” by Paul Fussell for an entertaining illustration of what I’m talking about.

The short version is that you make it into and stay in the upper class through things like finance and warfare which don’t have a lot to do with taste in French novels.

there´s a distinction of being of the literally the elite of your nation and being rich

a son of a politician is more important than a son of a business entrepeneur, because unlike money, political power has a more intrinsic value

This desu senpai

If this is what freedom feels like I'd rather have the slavery.

literal kings and saints have known and propagated the truth about the jews but yeah you’re more cultured than philip ii augustus

it's simply a coincidence that everybody throughout history disliked the Jews right up until they suddenly gained control of the press and infiltrated academia

Mmmmm, an austrian who doesn't like marx?

agree

>Globalization, according to Lasch, has turned elites into tourists in their own countries. The de-nationalization of society tends to produce a class who see themselves as "world citizens, but without accepting ... any of the obligations that citizenship in a polity normally implies". Their ties to an international culture of work, leisure, information - make many of them deeply indifferent to the prospect of national decline. Instead of financing public services and the public treasury, new elites are investing their money in improving their voluntary ghettos: private schools in their residential neighborhoods, private police, garbage collection systems. They have "withdrawn from common life".

From the wiki on Christopher Lasch's "The Revolt of the Elites"

It's no conspiracy. We have the internet and can see who comprises this elite, and they are kikes. Period. And now we need to purge them.

Meaning that a primary difference between the old aristocracy and the new rich is that the old rich were very much tied to a city - their family had been there for many generations, they have parks and statues and scholarships for local students named after them... The new rich have none of these ideals of legacy and stewardship to keep up. The CEO of the company I work for is hardly ever around, she communicates with my boss almost exclusively via computer.

read the post again though? people always were unfree from base desires and the high class only partook in 'high culture' since they had no other choice

No, its mostly WASPs. Jews control Hollywood and the televised news, but those are all owned by parent companies which are owned by WASPs.

>You need to be called 'boss' to pull the strings.

You ignore that for a long time the upper-class were just plebs literature-wise. Their merits (that is to say, their power) lied in their use of the sword.

High-brow reading only came late, and some even argue it was already a sign of degeneracy.

From the way I see it, this is absolutely part of the problem.

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You're understating the amount of richness and abundance the richs had access to in the past. Look how many conquerors died absolutely obese.

>The guy reading the teleprompter is secretly the mastermind
This isn't a shitty movie user

In my city a good parte of middle and high classes are invested into art, un a pretty banal way for the majority tho. To the point that a lot of girls at my u are groupies
Latinamerica

>Shitty means unbelievable
>Good movies make the impossible believable

Simply false. Kikes are running nearly every essential institution and industry in western countries. Their rootless cosmopolitan ideology is also baked in the cake though so they don't need to comprise 100% to keep the goyim in line. They just shame and attack anyone who strays from it with the media and jewish attack organizations like the ADL and SPLC.

Yes, and your conspiracy theory sounds like the plot of a shitty Matrix knockoff.

>My theory
I don't even believe that. But I don't not believe it either.

Highschool thesis don't belong on this board.

>Kikes are running nearly every essential institution and industry in western countries
The opposite.
They pretty much run everything that isn't essential.

you're only really deceiving their ego. not everyone is going to produce the great works the educated and leisured aristocracy do, and it's stupid to assume everyone should try. there's only so many scientific, artistic or economic advancements to be made per generation, since what you do with those intellectually is based on the needs and tendencies of the mass of people who exist hand to mouth. what this raising everybody up looks like in practice is telling everybody that the standard modes of existence are "lower" somehow, then offering a leg up through some bullshit state or private apparatus.

you see what the trick is? you've been convinced that leisure, material wealth, and intellectual pursuits are the highest good. Of course existence is shit if you believe that, there's only so much of those things to go around. that is specifically what has happened in america, we insisted that a kind of faux-intellectual materialism is 1) a universal good and 2) should be packaged and sold to those who can excel in a new kind of rat race that is no longer linked to "work to survive and improve your community", but to "you must have ambition to escape the horror of pedestrian existence". you've convinced yourself education is an inherent virtue, but looking around it doesn't pan out that way in reality.

wow, what a clever tactic to disparage criticism of jews

>freedom is good because it allows someone to be what they want to be and if everyone is who they want to be then people become fulfilled and glad that they exist.

but what if most people want a bunch of bullshit and just fall into dopamine reward cycles based off of what's available around them. what if working through whatever hand you've been dealt is actually a shorter path to wisdom and virtue than making a lot of material options available to a species that doesn't seem to use them productively?

>To me freeing people and mass education has lead to a dilution of culture. Instead of liberating them, it's torn down everybody else into some horrific mass consumption culture so that culture has broken down.
Nonsense. You just think that way because you have no respect for the culture that has emerged out of this socioeconomic system that you personally despise.

Anyone who refers to consumerism strictly negatively isn't worth taking seriously. You don't get the culture then, or how we got here.

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Like banks and media and NGOs and the top government lobbying groups and on and on. Gtfo of here, rabbi.

I know French and am learning Spanish and am reading four books, while also learning verses by heart in five different languages, yet I don't make anything close to 8mil a month. And there are many anons who read much more than I do.

It might sound ridiculous but there are many well-read people here, even if they are minoritary compared to the average memeister.

Which banks or NGOs have an infrastructure mostly comprised of Jews?

>8mil a month paycheck
I'd never go to Yea Forums again. I'd be going to a different country every month for the next three years and then taking tons of classes.

Being a saint as fuck-all to do with being cultured and everything to do with a faith which, coincidentally, happen to hold jews as objects of both contempt and special care.

Being a king in the Middle Age had more to do with warfare and outmaneuvring opponents than about culture.

Also old-school antisemitism isn't conspirationnist, it was just "jews bad" not "jews control everything".

Every bank is controlled by jews via the private federal reserve, and one kike alone runs hundreds of anti-white NGOs. Get your ass back to r*ddit until you have some JQ 101 down, brainlet.

>jews control the world by owning companies
>unless they're being owned by someone else, in which case they control it by being owned

Legitimately irrefutable.

You don't NEED to use a bank, user. It appears that you've been brainwashed by (((the))) :^)

Last I checked this board was about literature. Fuck off back to /pol/ if you're gonna be rude about your off-topic shit. Didn't even answer my fucking question.

you realize you're not swaying anyone with your tired reddit tier rhetoric

>not addressing the argument

If powr is achieved through corporate and captalistic ownership, why aren't the ultimate owners considered the definitive masters ?

>If powr is achieved through corporate and captalistic ownership, why aren't the ultimate owners considered the definitive masters ?
They are. What I'm saying is this consideration is wrong.
I never said they control the world by owning companies. They control the world by spreading ideas.

>call my post reddit tier rhetoric
>doesn't say anything beside spouting meme-insults

You realize memeing is not arguing not even if you're using the "chad Yea Forums memes" instead of the "virgin reddit memes" ?

Besides I'm not trying to sway anyone, simply to point the stupidity of a particular argument.

This. Saying "reddit" doesn't automatically invalidate any argument, and is a really cheap, lazy rhetorical move.

you really seem to have gotten yourself worked up :^)

I absolutely concur
>t. frog

it's easy but effective at sussing out the character of the poster, especially in how they respond to it

>The argument is that a society that is only able to exist because of lies and exploitation is unjust and that something that is unjust ought to be rectified
This reads like an 8th grader who finally "figured it out", or some edgy chuuni anime protagonist. Lies, exploitation, a lack of justice - these are the very basis of all of our societies and cultures worldwide. It's the reason we need religion, and the promise of salvation from such a corrupt world.

>"jews control everything"
>"jews control the world"
Reminder that only jews say this, and do it to throw the goyim off the scent.

Nobody cares about freedom, only material comfort. Just look at how the idea of rights has been so quickly twisted, that we all are owed an easy and well-provided life as per our rights. As if a lonesome and isolated man without society would be oppressed by that same society.
Just play lip service to the freedom lovers, they don't care one bit about freedom and wouldn't recognize it if it slapped them in the face. They would rightly jeer the only principled proponents of freedom, the libertarians, so one could hardly take their insistence on liberty seriously.

>this is what lower class scum thinks
There is trend of social standing being detached from avant garde esotericism.
The upper class and lower class are closer together, still they won't talk on the same level.
Rich people go to private schools, have the possibility to assimilate knowledge provided by the best teachers. This fact hasn't changed, the only thing that has changed is that the lower class has the oppertunity to engage with all of the knowledge.
You are stuck with the lower class scrambling to become intellectuals whilst you will never see nor hear from the actual upper class as they are segregated.

>whilst you will never see nor hear from the actual upper class as they are segregated.
actually they're all on Twitter

Who are you reffering to?

celebrities, politicians and ceos, all of which you can find and strike up conversations with on twitter. They are less segregated than ever

wish i could speak french

>Musk is always doing stuff in and out of public to seem like a normal guy who just works really hard when he's actually weird as fuck.

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you're a retard. ever heard of the internet, the world's largest and furthest reaching campus of all time? the internet houses infinite institutions lad, if there are still cults that worship chaldean oracles from 2000 years ago I'm sure literature and classical music will be just fine.

Nice, you just named 3 groups that have public interests. Most wealthy people aren't known for being wealthy. They have their jobs and live their lives with considerably more comfort than most people.
You are one of those losers who goes to this board whining about chads and stacys, you are lower class, purely because you can't adapt. People always need someone to blame, there are a lot of interesting and smart individuals, you just seek comfort in your sorrow as the last intellectual being, whilst the real intelectuals have fun and enjoy life.

>Anyone who refers to consumerism strictly negatively isn't worth taking seriously
What's positive about it?

It's disgusting to me how people here seek the intelectual persuit, whilst they have no inclination for self awarness.

>freedom is good because it allows someone to be what they want to be and if everyone is who they want to be then people become fulfilled and glad that they exist.
Is that why people are as depressed and nihilistic as never before, because they don't know what they want?

>even if it creates more chaos, the good of it outweighs the bad.
No, because the chaos is ever increasing and thus makes it all unsustainable.

It's just different from before.
The current situation isn't just the outcome of freedome or consumerism. This is a really watered down argument, it has a lot to do with us not giving people the right tools to fullfill themselves. Freedom has the inherent property for change which makes it superior to other forms.

Nigga just do your thing. People will always consume shit. You can't change consumerist culture but you can live without it. It's more liberating to take care of yourself instead of thinking about what others are doing with their own time and resources.

>not giving people the right tools to fullfill themselves
What would those tools be? Or are you proposing that giving your average pleb enough money to subsist with UBI would turn him into a philosopher?

No education is a big step forward. Norway is a good indication, sweden too.
You also don't have to be a philosopher, just content with what you do in your life.
You know you can have philosophical lifestyles without being a philosopher?

>Norway is a good indication, sweden too.
indication of what m8? They have per capita measures similar to most of other Western european populations.

Old money is based
New money is absolute cringe tier

That's because "western nations" = white people. But those numbers will, and are, declining at breakneck speed as the numbers of whites to shitskins flips.

There was no real peasant culture because they were being worked to death, and most of the upper classes were the same as today, but with more inbreeding.

Well put and interesting concept, I will have to think about it. Have a (you)

there are still some that marry power to wealth and knowledge

they are rare and hard to find...but they are there, and they are doing some mighty interesting things.

I am talking about the education system they have, it sets you up for not having these consumeristic choices. We have the possibility to change, that is our freedom. The world happiness report shows that norway is the happiest country in the world. I believe it's strongy correlated to education, not money.

>larping this hard on a mongolian pottery forum
Wew lad

>hey guys, have you ever heard of this new hip thing called hedonism?
Off yourself

the elite who do read really, really read. it's interesting seeing what the true political elite consume--beyond the LARPing crap, there are some really powerful programs going on

Bummp

old money is super based

makezine.com/2016/01/27/cultivating-curiosity-in-a-professors-heavenly-home-library/

or

penningtonlibrary.com

so fucking jealous.

freedom is obviously immensely painful

yes it does. this is a board for people under the age of 25 and those over 25 who are intellectually underdeveloped

nearly everything the aristocrats and educated people have made is abysmal shit that is already rightly forgotten for the rest of time. lower people and aristocrats both create great works of art. art comes from passion and suffering. not everyone should try to make something, but anyone who feels compelled to do so should. you have a fatalistic and defeatist view of people that does not conform to the ideal, and the ideal is what is real and most worthy of existing in the world, even in a flawed state. the standard modes of existence are lower and you yourself probably don't really think that they're not, you've only romanticized it and would probably recoil with horror at the prospect of losing your intelligence and knowledge and becoming committed to manual labour for the next 50 years.

they will almost immediately realize that this is not what they really want, just as the privileged who have been able to experience this have.

(you)

People consider me high class and I'm read af, u can try me if in doubt

Yum! This is some delicious bait. I'm going to save this for future use.

t. Rousseau

My dudes.

Your definition of freedom is akin to animal impulse.

What do you think education is? Something that can be transferred into an individual's mind and then results in enlightenment? You give society too much credit, it is more incompetent than conspiratorial, without any workable alternative solutions.

t. Philistine

Shutup, roastie.

>saint as fuck-all to do with being cultured
Virtue is a pillar of culture, you pleb.

culture =! being cultured
And being cultured can be an impediment to virtue, just like virtue can quickly lead one to grow distrustful of culture ad particularly of the culture of the "cultured".

i love the arts and have a greater appreciation of them than nearly anyone on this board
no it's the opposite. it allows someone to choose between animal impulse or not, rather than having basically no choice.
education gives the opportunity to seek enlightenment to more people

economic disenfranchisement as well as greater ease/availability and absorption of knowledge.

Oh and I almost forgot, Jewish interest and propaganda.

>i love the arts and have a greater appreciation of them than nearly anyone on this board

This may be true but you can be sure that this statement is an attempt at increasing self value and emotional worth.

T. not the guy you responded to but an observer.

it's both that and a genuine belief

Say, the US states of the 1780s.
We aren't free today. We are taxed, spoliated, watched, catalogued, regulated. With perhaps the exclusion of sexuality we live in a time of low freedom.

All the technology of the last ~60-70 years.

>im sure some pomo faggot wrote an entire incomprehensible book about this

I'm going to use this all the time now.

good post

Well said. Well put. Fine post. Yes.

this is the most incorrect post i have ever read

god i hate liberals

Two world wars wiped our a lot of aristocratic blood and finished the ascent of the merchant.

Industrialization and capital markets happened. Aristocrats were land owners who had to be competent at managing large agrarian estates to stay rich as their ancestors. Today, people inherit assets primarily as "paper", financial instruments that represent real things they don't have to play any role in managing in the art, science, technology, and practical craft sense. They don't need to know anything except how to shop for, hire, and talk to portfolio managers, and even then some allegedly sophisticated investors get screwed by clever shysters like Bernard Madoff, or any of the hundreds of smaller-time ones that never make national or world news. They don't even have to bother with that much, and can automate everything by buying an index fund and holding it forever, taking profits here & there between downturns.

Freedom is a myth, want to be free from society and culture? Great you're now a slave to your predetermined psychological wants and feelings.

>it allows someone to choose between animal impulse or not, rather than having basically no choice.
This choice is made more difficult, not more available, by making it effectively the default option and having the market push people towards it.

>he thinks rich people had to fight in the wars
Lol.

Because mass media.
Also, mass/pop culture is a derivative of international European aristocratic culture, which is trashy, vapid shit.

Not him, but it toppled social institutions and the order of things, allowing unchecked capitalistic degeneration.

things used to be SO MUCH BETTER

youtube.com/watch?v=00roxpI3Y7I

Joe Rogan

lol

shut the fuck up nerd

And technology has affected the world completely positively?

>mass/pop culture is a derivative of international European aristocratic culture, which is trashy, vapid shit
For example?

Take your own advice you insufferable faggot. You literally dont have the strength to enjoy as much as you resentfully crave enjoyment.

It's all about the metrics. Even though power may be more of an end-all, a certain amount of money buys a certain amount of power.

The aristocrats were just people with money that could afford to be entertained. They do not have a different taste in hobbies, most of them, if possible, can be found in the common people. Example: theatre in Rome.

Can I get you anything lord? Here's a frog.

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baudrillards america. Its a damn good read though. He is only bitching and whining but his descriptions of america have a really nice aesthetic to them. Incredibly fake and psychedellic.

Bon post

Great rebuttal, friend

>education gives the opportunity to seek enlightenment to more people
What do you say about those who come to enlightenment, in any and all forms, without any education at all? What do you say to the argument that the kinds of structured education we have is actually an impediment to enlightenment?

But what scent ?

The scent of the hiberian overlords.

kek, nice image

have you ever been to ballet? the elite has always been decadent and cultureless. it is the social climbers of the middle class that pretend to be cultured

Ballet is great. Fuck you.

still undeniably decadent

ballerinas love anal desu

In American, yeah but we were never too into keeping European traditions alive. In Britain, god yes. Their ballet is some of the worst contemporary shit I've ever seen. But in continental Europe and Russia, they consistently keep the tradition alive.

Nice library in your first link, but somehow the first title I could make out was "Penser la créolité" (at 0:31), which is rather hilarious in the context of Yea Forums.

my dude modern dance is so much better than that 19th century russian nonsense. only the music itself is great

>my dude modern dance is so much better
FUCK YOU FUCJK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK OFF FUCK OFF DONT EVEN JUST DONT JUSTFCUK FUCK YOUUU FUCJ OFFFFFFFFFFF I HATE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Ballet is nice but for most of its history half its use was as a luxury brothel catalog display.

van Maanen is so much better than Gorsky prove me wrong

Non-sequitur; technology doesn't affect anything. Your fellow man using it does. And there is no such thing as a zero sum game outside of idealistic mathematical models. I support modern technology because it empowers the people I admire and takes us closer to the future I want.

You are aware the the officer corps and upper ranks were filled were packed with minor nobility right? Or do you think, for example, that all the lieutenants were conscripted potato farmers that worked their way up lol

Even more troublesome when you realized the normies murdered the cultured ones in France and the rest of the world literally stole their shit via mob rule.

Now we have Captain Marvel and gay sex on tv.

FREEDUMBS

I meant to reply to this thread earlier, but seeing the number of replies now, I see that it's basically pointless. I will do it anyways.
What you mean by "upper class aristocrats" is actually the essence of a pseud. But to tel the truth, being a pseud is no longer in fashion. People see through that facade, and are no longer held back by societal pressure to shut up about it. You will be confronted. Don't be a pseud.

French isn't even "patrician" or "high-brow."
French people are actually quite trashy.

Every other reply seems to be jerking you off, so I will be the one voice of dissent, just for the sake of it.
>muh capitalism
Cringe. This is the cry of the coward, with no real argument, who wishes to appeal to the popular sentiment of the day. The amount of replies in the affirmative to your post only accentuate my point.

>we are just like you, we just work harder, you should consume like us
No one actually believes this. Most people would agree that they "just got lucky."

>the aristocrats in the past had maybe 0.001% of the stuff we have today, and most of what they had was highly influenced by morbid religiosity. they were forced to read higher quality books. death surrounded them, they had fewer sense pleasures available to them, they had religion
>greater degree of freedom and they tend to spend it on what feels most pleasant, which for most people for all of time has mostly been social interaction and food. food generally lacks any of the inauthentic pretension that most literature has and this probably appeals to people.
all of these things are objectively true

>essentially, they were slaves to their religions and the culture they grew up in and even the literature that they read.
> also, in the past most people who read lots of long books for long periods of time were only doing so because there was nothing else to do. this culture is absolutely superior to all other cultures in the past and present because it allows for freedom.
these things are just my superior opinions

zeitgeist follower no independent thought

i believe that you are right that enlightenment doesn't just come from education but i seriously doubt that education is ever an impediment. education has been increasingly spread throughout history and it seems like the natural and inevitable trajectory for more people to gain it.

i find it hard to believe that giving young children the ability to read, do basic math, learn about the world, appreciate art, learn things together, etc. could ever be a bad thing

freedom is a myth

we can just say it allows for "variability"

Nonsense. In any hierarchy there is authenticity and masquerade. Nothing about it is particular.

>pinnacle lifestyle is drinking on boats
It's just fucking boring lmao. Wow!! Larp mid 20th century hollywood monaco lifestyle!!!would be fun for a few months maybe but damn if I had that wealth I'll attempt to carry out my schizoid fantasies or acquire power. I'll try to become a rally driver or create a de facto city state in the northern Canadian coast and turn it into a domed city once the ice melts and cash starts flowing. I'll publish my books and pay to advertise it in every major city. I'll bribe school boards to put it on the curriculum and turn it into a meme

A lot of rich people do indulge in most if not all of what you listed. What I'm saying is that in between all that crazy shit they're not learning some smelly European language or reading books to ultimately be a pseudointellectual they're out there making the most of their money.

In the era of social media, all of the current upper echelon are bigger pseuds than ever before. Nothing they present is ever the truth. Always a smoke screen. In times past their was an air of secrecy and separation.

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Yours dont?

Why do you asume that the explotation of the weak and ignorant is somehow unjust? Unjust by what standards?

No, you got it wrong, the only place in the world where the upper class retain some semblance of culture is western europe, where education is relatively freer than anywhere else

It does when I put on the VR goggles.

You think you know what they were like in the past but don't really know. I'm sure it's not that different today than it was in the past, uncultured rich people always existed and not everyone born into aristocracy was automatically well cultured. Sounds to me like you are romanticizing and distorting the past.

>murdered the cultured ones in France
Bitch they are the ones that are decadent and cultureless as fuck

If that was all school was, perhaps. Or even if it was structured and handled differently. As it is, basic, shallow touches on anything important post basic reading/math skills in 8 hour prison setences only leads most students to have a disdain for what they do in school. How many post-high school grads do you know (who aren't like us here, who at the very least seemingly appreciate lit and art enough to discuss it online) that ever dip back into anything they learned in school, esp. as a hobby or interest?

2 satanists?

Spiritual rot that ended the cultural continuity of the European upper class. Supplanted by a speculative oligarchy. The result is a grotesque celebration of Mass. No other factors mattering, including genetic continuity, spiritual, cultural, etc. etc.

>they "just got lucky".
We are just like you, you could be us if you get luck.

Based American food anologyst.

>their reward system seems to be completely different to plebians
I wonder what could that be.

Capitalism doesn't have a "central character." Prominent billionaires have tendencies to be the opposite of these nouveau rich you're thinking of. I would venture to say that the general population is retarded and wants to feign superiority amongst others because lack of meaning in life/lack of religion(maybe?) And this results not from capitalism but from depreciating strong cultural values

i don't assume, i just strongly believe this because i believe that free will is the fundamental characteristic of humans and that to diminish the capacity for free will is to diminish consciousness which is to diminish the will of the universe

the current manifestation of education is probably inadequate but i can easily imagine a vastly superior manifestation taking hold in a just world

>the current manifestation of education is probably inadequate but i can easily imagine a vastly superior manifestation taking hold in a just world
There is no, and never will be, a just world here on Earth, You're just posturing some utopian bullshit to back up claims for something being good here and now when that clearly isn't the case.

Free will =/= freedom.