Why is Leopardi barely discussed here?

Why is Leopardi barely discussed here?


The night is sweet and clear, without a breeze,
and the moon rests in the gardens,
calm on the roofs, and reveals, clear,
far off, every mountain. O my lady,
the paths are still, and the night lights
shine here and there from the balconies:
you sleep, and sleep gently welcomed you
to your quiet room: nothing
troubles you: you still don’t know, or guess
with how deep a wound you’ve hurt my heart.
You sleep: I gaze at the sky
that seems so kind to my eyes:
gaze on ancient all-powerful Nature,
who created me for pain. She said:
‘I refuse you hope, even hope, and may
your eyes not shine, except with tears.’
Today was holy: now rest
from pleasure, remember in dream, perhaps,
how many you liked today, how many
liked you: not I, it’s not I that hope
to fill your thoughts. Instead I ask
what life has left me, throw myself
to earth, cry out, and tremble: oh,
terrible days of green youth! Ah, on the road
nearby, I hear the solitary song
of the worker returning to his poor
lodging, late, after the revels:
and it grips my heart fiercely
to think the whole world passes,
and scarcely leaves a trace. See: the holiday’s
over: some nondescript day follows:
time carries off all mortal things.
Where now’s the sound of all those
ancient peoples? Where are the cries
of our famous ancestors, Rome’s
vast empire, its weapons, the clash
of arms, crossing land and sea
All’s peace and silence: the world
rests entirely, and we speak of them no more.
Now I remember, in my young days,
when the longed-for holiday was awaited,
how, once it had passed, I lay, in sadness,
pressed tight to my sheets: and, deep in the night,
a song I heard in the streets,
died, little by little, far off,
crushing my heart, as now.

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It's amazing how some more known poems (as this one is, if perhaps not by English readers) can take one through loveliness right to the very core of what one thought one's inexpressible anxiety or inexpressible pain. Even if the experience as described isn't quite [ours] [we] all know it as what is ultimately communicated is always something other than what's described or something more, in this case far more. One can get lost in such poems for a very long time.
Am reading Zimbaldone now, user. I like it but it is a very painful experience. Leopardi really fucks with one's thinking-- one sees how much of Nietzsche's success (for instance) lies cryptically in stroking his readers' egos (while seeming not to)-- Leopardi will have none of this. He attacks, and hacks away mercilessly while doing so.

>It's amazing how some more known poems (as this one is, if perhaps not by English readers) can take one through loveliness right to the very core of what one thought one's inexpressible anxiety or inexpressible pain.

You put it excellently. He's one of the poets singing about the death of god and the subsequent bleakness and misery of human condition.

"You, Ariosto, meanwhile, were born to sweet
dreams, and the primal sun, shone
on your face, carefree singer of love and arms,
who filled life with happy illusions,
in an age less sad than ours:
Italy’s new hope. O chambers, O towers,
O ladies, O cavaliers,
O gardens, O palaces, thinking of you,
my mind is lost in a thousand
empty pleasures. Vanities, lovely follies,
and strange thoughts,
filled human life: what remains, now the leaves
are stripped from things? Only the certainty
of seeing all is empty, except sadness. "

>now the leaves are stripped from things
Things aren't quite dead yet, but theyre dying and can grow no more- and this sentiment over 150 yrs ago.
In Z Leopardi is contemptuous of the rationalistic (spiritual) condition- how it minimizes eveything to some ultimate point of meaninglessness, e.g. language(s); believed illusions [our] natural endowment, and absolutely necessary in order to live a full life- in fact the term he opposes to 'reason' is 'nature' which subsumes modern notions of 'unconsciousness,' superstitiousness, notions like 'love' and 'privledge,' among many other things. And yet [our] de-naturalization is somehow an aspect of what he thinks true, the 'reason' is not wrong doing what it does although the truth it leads [us] to is obviously blank. At any rate this seems in the early going of Z to be the central landing of whatever position he may be accused of as having. Primarily the early struggling of his verse seems to be between what I've described and a nostagia for an unknown past (or known only through books) which he both loves and regrets. Somehow this is conducive to making great verse. Hope this makes at least a little sense. I'm in a family situation and typing quickly.

I understand what you say. No doubt about why Schopenhauer and Nietzsche praised him, he captures the spirit of a godless age. Humanity, now thrown into the world without ropes to grab is overwhelmed by the purposelessness that self awareness brings. But self awareness is a implicit condition of humans, the situation is tragic. As you said we've been denaturalized and disconnected from the earth which now appears as mere representation to which we aren't a fully integrated element. The consequence of destroying the illusion, the unknown past, the paradise is this constant feeling of ailment and abandonment.

"There was indeed a time (The Muses’ song
and the cry of fame have not indeed fed the avid
crowd on error or empty shadows), a time
when this poor earth was friendly and pleasant
and dear to our race, and our fallen age
flowed with gold. True, streams of pure milk
did not flow down the face
of native cliffs, shepherds did not
drive tigers to the fold with their flocks,
or wolves to the springs
for their pleasure: but the human
race did live then in ignorance
of its fate, and trouble, free of misery:
a sweet primal veil of kind illusion was drawn
over the hidden laws of nature
and heaven: and content with hope
our peaceful ship reached harbour. "

By the way, do you have the complete Zibaldone? I haven't found a complete edition of it in my native tongue (spanish)

Another incredible poem, this one almost playful.
Yes to the last question. The complete Zimbaldone was published in English in 2013 by FS&G in a single volume. With critical apparatus etc. it's 2500 pp, just over 2200 consists of Leopardi's full text. I've seen fairly cheap copies on ABE but I got mine for about $60 new a few years back by combining gift cards I got from my mom and sister. Amazingly it's a solidly constructed book, well worth owning.
It's impossible to read it straight through however so I've been reading other books 'around' it. Reading it tonight (now that I'm home) and am approaching p. 800.
Have you ever read Calasso? Very tentatively his program consists of reading himself around Zimbaldone, or Leopardi in general. Very interesting contrasting the two; theyre both mighty intellects.

*Zibaldone, rather!

Before FS&G had published either English translation of the Canti or Zibaldone, I discovered his thought through the Oprette Morali. It's hard to describe how much that meant to me. Lifesaving? Perhaps.
I ran to buy the Canti hardcover edition new in store, but I found a couple remaindered, like-new hardcover copies of the Zibaldone going for about $30 Canadian. Pretty lucky find.

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Damn. And it's right in front of my face. Perhaps zib-'s awkward in English, but entirely my bad.

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That's a lovely cover, user. Is Moretti taken from Z or an exclusive volume? I can look it up, of course..
Steal on the Z. Despite its onion skin pages I've found it very reader friendly. Started Z yet? If so, general impression?

Anglo, France and Germany-boos crowding out other lits, mostly.

I hate Italy and Italians with a passion, yet even I acknowledge the fucking majesty of Leopardi.

yeah I'm not reading all that bullshit but he sounds like a fag

lmfao this

holy fuck, could you fuckheads have your noses any deeper up each other’s assholes? you speak like utter faggots

Oh, Elvira, Elvira, oh, happy is he, oh
blessed above the immortals, to whom
your smile of love’s revealed! Next
is he who sheds his lifeblood for you!
It is allowed, allowed to mortals, not
just a dream as I long thought, allowed
for us to know happiness. I knew it
when I first gazed at you. It happened
through my dying. And even in such pain
I cannot find it in my heart
to condemn this fatal day.

Now you are blessed, my Elvira,
and your face adorns the earth. No one
will love you as I loved you. No such
love to equal it will be born. Ah, how often,
how often, wretched Consalvo, called out
to you, how long he grieved, and wept!
How pale I grew, at Elvira’s name,
frozen at the heart: how I used to tremble
at the harsh stone of your threshold,
at that angelic voice, at the aspect
of your brow, I, who do not fear death!
But breath and life grow less at the sound
of love. My time has passed, and it
will not be granted me to recall this day.
Elvira: farewell. Your image vanishes
from my heart at last, with my vital flame.
Farewell. If this love of mine was not
a burden to you, send a sigh towards
my tomb, tomorrow, when night falls.

He fell silent: and in a moment his spirit
ebbed with the sound: and his first day
of happiness fled from sight, before the dark.

What have Italians done to you, little baby?

Whiniest people in history. We’re worried about our society degenerating into entitled children, meanwhile... Italy.

Men are often confused by women who want to complain not because they want to find a solution, but just because they can. This is the default mentality of virtually all Italians.

Where do I stop? Most overrated cuisine on earth (hey guys how about MORE garlic, MORE tomatoes, and MOR cheese!!1”, French Opera is better etc.

I see you're very docile to what people tell you

This post doesn't make sense. Learn to express your thoughts in a linear and concise way then try again

It’s not just that they tell you, it’s that if you don’t feel and agree with their autism, they get angry at you too. No wonder it’s basically a third world country at this point. Lombards should’ve finished the job.

Italy is as much a third world country as it is France or Spain or Germany or England. The presence of a fistful of stronger banks on the territory of any of these countries doesn't make it a better place to live.

Anyway this is a Leopardi thread, I would like to go back to poetry. Oh, and just so you know, Leopardi hated Italians as bad as you, but he would not have traded Italy, Italian and his Italian cultural heritage for anything in the world.

ALCETAS
Listen, Melissus: I’ll tell you a dream
I had tonight, that comes to mind on
seeing the moon again. I was standing
at the window that faces the meadow,
gazing at the sky: and suddenly, look,
the moon broke loose: and it seemed
the nearer it came in its fall
the bigger it grew: till it landed
with a bang in the midst of the meadow:
and it was the size of a bucket, and spewed
a shower of sparks, that hissed as loud
as a glowing coal when you plunge it
in water, and quench it. Just like that,
the moon, I say, in the midst of the meadow,
quenched itself, darkening, little by little,
and all the grass around was smoking.
Then gazing at the sky, I saw a sort of
gleam was left, a scar or a gaping hole,
it might have torn away from: so that
it made me shiver: and I’m still shaking.

MELISSUS
You’re right to worry, it’s likely,
that the moon would fall in your field!

ALCETAS
Who knows? Don’t we often see a star fall
in summer?

MELISSUS
There are so many stars up there
no harm if one or two of them fall,
there’s thousands left. But only one
moon in the sky, and no one’s ever
seen it fall, except in dreams.

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Dubs of truth.

What are your favorite pieces by him? The poems you’ve posted so far are excellent; I know he has a small stack of great essays as well.

I've been in love with "Listen, Melissus" recently. It's a mind-blowing poem, and besides the crazy images it contains I see a hidden meaning which is powerful and concerns me a lot.

Leopardi wanted to leave it out from the Canti, but it's one of his best poems in my opinion. Other pieces I love are the dialogue between the Earth and the Moon in the Operette Morali, To Silvia, The Infinite and Night-Song of a Wandering Asian Shepherd.

Cool, I’ll check some of those out; thanks user. I forgot how much I liked Leopardi.

O my rubber nen

This shouldn't be as good as it is, a thought that often emerges when reading Leopardi. One can believe in his suffering and not believe in it at the same time.

How do you believe or feel these pieces saved your life, user? Post a small cento from one of them?

What do you mean? That poem is not even about suffering.

My context comes from Zibaldone, in which Leopardi presents himself as a person consistently in pain- yet most of what he writes is just what? Blissful? Amazing? No one seems less bothered by coming so near the empty 'truth' as he does, or by the fact that his physical deformities kept him inside all the time (he complains about this over and over again).
The poem itself is relatively simple, and turns on the notion 'only in dreams.' And yet I find myself wanting to read it again and again, as if I'll find something I know isn't there.

ICELANDER — [...] I conclude therefore that we are destined to suffer much in proportion as we enjoy little, and that it is as impossible to live peacefully as happily. I also naturally come to the conclusion that you are the avowed enemy of men, and all other creatures of your creation. Sometimes alluring, at other times menacing; now attacking, now striking, now pursuing, now destroying; you are always engaged in tormenting us. Either by habit or necessity you are the enemy of your own family, and the executioner of your own flesh and blood. As for me, I have lost all hope. Experience has proved to me that though it be possible to escape from men and their persecutions, it is impossible to evade you, who will never cease tormenting us until you have trodden us under foot. Old age, with all its bitterness, and sorrows, and accumulation of troubles, is already near to me. This worst of evils you have destined for us and all created beings, from the time of infancy. From the fifth lustre of life, decline makes itself manifest; its progress we are powerless to stay. Scarce a third of life is spent in the bloom of youth; but few moments are claimed by maturity; all the rest is one gradual decay, with its attendant evils.

NATURE -- Thinkest thou then that the world was made for thee? It is time thou knewest that in my designs, operations, and decrees, I never gave a thought to the happiness or unhappiness of man. If I cause you to suffer, I am unaware of the fact; nor do I perceive that I can in any way give you pleasure. What I do is in no sense done for your enjoyment or benefit, as you seem to think. Finally, if I by chance exterminated your species, I should not know it.

From “Dialogue between Nature and an Icelander”
Also
Don’t worry Pierre, I love you anyway

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As an Italian I can confirm that we are the whiniest people on earth. But our food is the best in the world and whoever has come here to taste it knows it. It's the only good thing we have left and you cannot take this away from us.

This is a discussion board about literature if you're not going to engage with anything and insult others for doing what the board was designed for then leave you imbecile

there's a fictional dialogue in it between Plotinus and Porphyry on the subject of suicide, which I read at a time when that question was at the top of my mind. it was incredibly meaningful to me when I discovered it.
I think I transcribed the whole bit, which I might be able to dredge up...

>Thinkest thou then that the world was made for thee?
>I never gave a thought to the happiness or unhappiness of man
okay nature, that was wild

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>And yet I find myself wanting to read it again and again, as if I'll find something I know isn't there.
This, this, this. I just can't stop reading it.

A lot of Leopardi's poetry is like that. The Infinite, for example. Only 15 lines and yet it never ceases to speak. It's incredible.

You do certain things 100% on the mark, like bread for example. Holy shit the French suck at that shit. Also simple sauces, which again I wouldn’t let the French near.

I don’t know which region you’re from user, but is there something good (books and or food) from your area?

There's something good from any Italian region, you dummy.

Read this one a while back. One of my favorites. The entire writing up to this was excellent as well, it's worth it to see the enitre thing. Pic semi-related.

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More poems!

That Leopardi would have the temerity or the nerve to put himself in the mouth of Plotinus (as it were) makes me interested in wanting to see this one, user. Thanks for the lead; I can look it up.
I never really considered reading certain authors therapeutic, but why not? Castiglione (The Book of the Courtier) helped me immensely through a difficult time, and when going through an absolutely wretched divorce Edward Gibbon (of all writers) perhaps saved my life- I actually read the entire Decline and Fall while going through it, and that slight daily interest was what kept me going.

I have a copy of this, reading it randomly one numbered passage at a time. To be honest it's not great so far.

I've read Enneads so a kind of severity accompanies my expectation. Still, I'd like to see. Plotinus had a mighty mind, and Leopardi's among the cleverest poets. That the latter read tons is beyond question; I'd just like to see what kind of justice he does to the voice of Plotinus. I can't imagine. What's a criticism? Is it just flat?

I expected Zibaldone to be more like Book of Disquiet, and although at times he articulates a bleak worldview or writes some witty observation or something, the book as a whole suffers from what a lot of older works of literature where the author articulated something really banal and obvious at great length in an attempt to seem original or profound. That said, I don't have the book with me at the moment so can't really back that up. I guess I just expected a lot from it but it reads more like a really extended diary from someone who didn't really expect an audience.

Operette Morali is much more than therapeutic literature, user. It's a philosophical work written in the form of simple dialogues, but it's full of substance for thought. The title, which translates into "Small Moral Works", reveals the opinion Leopardi had about them: he considered them inferior to his Canti because it was prose, and poetry was the only field of expression for a romantic poet – especially in Italy, where poetry always reached higher results than prose. However, besides what Leopardi thought of them, Operette Morali are written in such a sublime language that it often reaches poetical results. I would define them the perfect middle way between the Canti and Zibaldone.

Dude, Zibaldone is certainly a diary, but it must be read as a non-systematic philosophical work. It's not much different than Montaigne's Essays in my opinion. A lot of it might seem obvious or not interesting, but the whole tome is littered with extremely brilliant intuitions and thoughts. Also it's nice to see the interweaving of life facts and the philosophical reflections that directly stemmed from them.

If we could browse Zibaldone as we browse the internet, using links and tags, it would be much more accessible and surprising.

Sold. Thanks, user.

There is a temptation to view Zibaldone as the Italian Essais but really Montaigne and Leopardi are nothing alike. Anyone who thinks Montaigne a nihilist however SHOULD compare the two because Leopardi actually is one, though not at all by choice. Both are perennial works- the Essais slyly atopical, Zibaldone the reverse, and mammothly self referential. Leopardi was a merciless critic of the Italians who wrote in the backwash of German and English (Byron) Romanticism, but in a very real sense Zibaldone is kind of an in-progress Prelude (Wordsworth) and Post-lude too.

Is better

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I was not comparing Leopardi to Montaigne, of course they're different. I was just in need of a parallel to define the form of Zibaldone, and the only one that came to my mind was the Essays. The European thinkers who wrote in a simple, non-systematic and autobiographical way are very few. At least those who can boast such a huge work as Zibaldone.

He has nothing to do with Leopardi though.

Fragrant broom,
content with deserts:
here on the arid slope of Vesuvius,
that formidable mountain, the destroyer,
that no other tree or flower adorns,
you scatter your lonely
bushes all around. I’ve seen before
how you beautify empty places
with your stems, circling the City
once the mistress of the world,
and it seems that with their grave,
silent, aspect they bear witness,
reminding the passer-by
of that lost empire.
Now I see you again on this soil,
a lover of sad places abandoned by the world,
a faithful friend of hostile fortune.
These fields scattered
with barren ash, covered
with solid lava,
that resounds under the traveller’s feet:
where snakes twist and couple
in the sun, and the rabbits return
to their familiar cavernous burrows:
were once happy, prosperous farms.
They were golden with corn, echoed
to lowing cattle:
there were gardens and palaces,
the welcome leisure retreats
for powerful, famous cities,
which the proud mountain crushed
with all their people, beneath the torrents
from its fiery mouth. Now all around
is one ruin,
where you root, gentle flower, and as though
commiserating with others’ loss, send
a perfume of sweetest fragrance to heaven,
that consoles the desert. Let those
who praise our existence visit
these slopes, to see how carefully
our race is nurtured
by loving Nature. And here
they can justly estimate
and measure the power of humankind,
that the harsh nurse, can with a slight movement,
obliterate one part of, in a moment, when we
least fear it, and with a little less gentle
a motion, suddenly,
annihilate altogether.
The ‘magnificent and progressive fate’
of the human race
is depicted in this place.

youtube.com/watch?v=U5e___IGHm4

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I wouldn't have responded had not this idea (or this parallel) presented itself over and over to me while reading Z., so I get it. The only work remotely like these two in European literature (that I can think of) would be the Goethe of Poetry and Truth, Italian Journey, and Conversations of German Refugees.

>Poetry and Truth
Amazing suggestion. I didn't know it. Thank you user.

>Poetry and Truth
Amazing suggestion. I didn't know it. Thank you user.

Gee, user, thanks. It's a great book. Italian Journey's perhaps my favorite by him and Auden translated it (The Penguin).

Nothing is discussed here, unless you consider half-assed shitposts "discussion".

>Have you ever read Calasso? Very tentatively his program consists of reading himself around Zimbaldone, or Leopardi in general. Very interesting contrasting the two; theyre both mighty intellects
Can you tell me more about this? I know Calasso is fucking based, but I've never read any book by him. What's the connection between him and Leopardi? And what do you mean by "reading himself around Zibaldone"?

wtf is this emo shit

Silvia, do you remember
those moments, in your mortal life,
when beauty still shone
in your sidelong, laughing eyes,
and you, light and thoughtful,
leapt beyond girlhood’s limits?

The quiet rooms and the streets
around you, sounded
to your endless singing,
when you sat, happily content,
intent on that woman’s work,
the vague future, arriving alive in your mind.
It was the scented May, and that’s how
you spent your day.

I would leave my intoxicating studies,
and the turned-down pages,
where my young life,
the best of me, was left,
and from the balcony of my father’s house
strain to catch the sound of your voice,
and your hand, quick,
running over the loom.
I’d look at the serene sky,
the gold lit gardens and paths:
this side the mountains, that side the far-off sea.
And human tongue cannot say
what I felt then.

What sweet thoughts,
what hope, what hearts, O my Silvia
How all human life and fate
appeared to us then!
When I recall that hope
such feelings pain me,
harsh, disconsolate,
I brood on my own destiny.
Oh Nature, Nature
why do you not give now
what you promised then? Why
do you so deceive your children?

Attacked, and conquered, by secret disease,
you died, my tenderest one, and did not see
your years flower, or feel your heart moved,
by sweet praise of your black hair
your shy, loving looks.
No friends talked with you,
on holidays, about love.

My sweet hopes died also
little by little: to me too
Fate has denied those years.
Oh, how you’ve passed me by,
dear friend of my new life,
my saddened hope!
Is this the world, the dreams,
the loves, events, delights,
we spoke about so much together?
Is this our human life?
At the advance of Truth
you fell, unhappy one,
and from the distance,
with your hand you pointed
towards death’s coldness and the silent grave.

Glad to see there are other anons reading Leopardi. He is so depressing but yet spiritual uplifting.