Tfw joined a classical languages group in my campus

Dreher really doesn't seem aware of how repressive things can really, It's laughable.

>Posting the CIA intel gathering OP meme.
stop, glownigger

i was in one with 6 other people. it was really comfy. enjoy yours while it lasts.

I had a similar experience in my Latin class. By Latin II, there were like seven people. This was a public and shitty university, but my professor graduated from Princeton, (though she didn't seem particularly bright), and was a pretty rotten teacher. I think the last exam was to translate, (at home), a fairly simple passage from the Satyricon. Just a joke.

>it's a start, yes, he is not going far enough

"Going far enough" would be burning the Constitution, setting America up as an explicitly Catholic state, and entering into a formal Concordat with the Church that gives it a privileged place in society. As far as I'm concerned, that's "far enough."

It isn't much different at top 50 universities, demand for theses classes are really low, even people studying classics try to avoid taking them.

How do we do this?

>setting America up as an explicitly Catholic state,
you don't have a coalition to do that, how do you """set""" anything when things aren't even yours anymore? there's no "normal america" to fall back on, you have to build it first

you don't need some magical RGB code for a computer to identify images, it's the current year

Anybody who actually follows Catholic politics and news would know this would be a horrendously bad idea.

>State run by secret pedophiles
>Overlord Pope Francis
>Insinuating the tax-exempt church doesn't already have a privileged place in society
You fucking moron fuck right off

You aren't wrong apart but Churches aren't tax-exempt because they're churches, all non-profits occupy a privileged place in society and operate with zero scrutiny.

church and state separation is just a shitty meme that prevents christians from organizing efficiently, and which is taken seriously by nobody, not by "secular religions" like intersectionality, and not by islam, we pretty much already have de-facto blasphemy laws in all of europe by this point, which entail the death penalty, and there's nothing we can do about it within the current framework

yes, the church needs a new inquisition and to purge the gay lobby from within itself

This means what: that they just don't learn the classical languages in studying the classics, (which would be very interesting), or they just learn the language outside of the university system? I'm not quibbling, but genuinely curious for what you mean.

You're completely missing the point, the Catholic hierarchy are in bed with the democrats, are you even aware the only reason why the democrats are so pro-choice is because of the Jesuits?

as moldbug said, NGOs have to be explicitly called non-governmental because people could not tell otherwise

yes, the church has been infiltrated by progressives and the gay lobby, like all institutions of power, but i can be easily purged if the issue is taken seriously and a new inquisition is established

Both, degrees that involve language learning often have a A and B plans, the A plan involves you studying the language at university from scratch to fluency, If you already know a decent amount of the language you take the B plan which involves a lot more outside learning and only taking a few advanced classes freeing up slots for other classes, a lot of people lie and take the B plan without any knowledge of the language, skip the classes and pass the exams with the absolute bare minimum, sometimes involving cheating.

This, then they have to get jobs that don't have to do with their degrees because they're not actually qualified to teach or study classical languages and civilizations. OP should stop stressing, if he works hard and puts in the time he'll be a specialist

Well, it won't be like that forever, there's currently a growing trend in classics that learning Greek/Latin isn't necessary and honestly It's understandable why, it's really disheartening to see that hundreds of other people have translated every important text ever and the skill gap between them and you is insurmountable.

This is one of the best parts of studying medievalism, tons of important medieval Latin texts haven't been translated, same with old french/Italian, making it really easy to make a name for yourself. Avoid Old Norse though.

This. I'm not a medievalist but it's underrated and intensely rewarding.

>Avoid Old Norse though.
And old english.

>a lot of people lie and take the B plan without any knowledge of the language, skip the classes and pass the exams with the absolute bare minimum, sometimes involving cheating.
That's pretty brazen and bizarre, and I could not imagine what their motive is, as I could not see the motive being pecuniary. It would be like developing an extremely cunning system to steal pennies people drop in fountains with nobody noticing, which I would be surprised if anybody could pull off and have a living wage. Now, I could imagine somebody would have a passion for philology or the classics, and not petty theft, but why would they not bother to gain some competency in their passion by learning languages that were once requisites to make a gentlemen several hundred years ago?

I could only imagine that some people have a passion for the classics, (especially the Greeks), but only in their primary language, (like those insufferable faggots here who go on about Plato's Republic, as if we haven't all decided what we thought of that long ago, or never had an interest). This is imaginable, but if there were a significant number of classics majors who would not only stay ignorant of the both classic languages, nothing could better indicate the sorry state of classics study. This would also make create a generation of genuine intellectual frauds, (genuine, as opposed to merely mediocre intellectuals), who know they have pretentious to abilities they have unjustifiably not obtained.
This doesn't matter. This might justify less familiarity with the language that was once required, but there might as well be music professors who can not read music because of how wide-spread and high quality recordings have become.

This would be an instance where changes in society actually lower the standards required for academic support, while the standards should be higher than ever in the face the difficulty of justifying academic pursuits in society that more efficiently ever means to economize resources.

The solution to this paradox, I suppose, is that that, in response to certain academic fields becoming less lucrative, cretins seek to fill the niches of intellectual pursuits that are now open to men of little minds, so somebody who could before only be suited to something like accounting might now find certain subjects in academia to be of such a low and degraded character, that it might be financially lucrative enough for somebody of his capacity.

I don't know if there is a solution to this. If society values certain academic subjects less, supporting them to a lesser degree seems to be justified, and with lowering standards, it has to be decided whether standards have sunk so low that it would be a disgrace for an individual institution to support it.
I'm not utilitarian, but at some point, one has to ask whether the pursuit of an interest is justifiable in light of the world likely being totally uninterested and unsupportive.

Unfortunately medievalism is HIGHLY politicized right now and some absolutely bizarre shit is coming out of it.

I would presume that nobody could make a name for themselves in Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Oxford and Cambridge, (not sure about MIT and Stanford), in classics and philology without a deep knowledge of language. However, as the pool of intellectuals interested in this pursuit decreases, so must the standards required of the highest echelon of intellectuals in this particular field, and at some point, these institutions would be supporting academics merely for the pretension of supporting all interests of learning, no matter how low academic standards have fallen, or how useless or uninterested is the rest of the world.

This is largely why I see the great public schools in England largely still teach Latin and, (to a lesser degree), Greek, which, while useful in their way, in my opinion, should have been replaced long ago with more useful subjects. If every Latin class were replaced with a composition class that improved the compositional abilities of students to a degree that was equal in labor and value to acquiring another language, (even a dead one), I would find this to be a valuable change, especially in a world where, in the first time in history, one language can be said to have truly reached the status, or come as close as any language as ever come, of a lingua franca.

>This is largely why I see the great public schools in England largely still teach Latin
Prestigious private schools are the only ones still teaching Latin FYI.

Could you go on?

>Prestigious private schools
What else could I have meant by "great public schools"? You do know that is what is meant by the term "public school" in the context of British education, correct?

I'm not saying you're wrong but there is an argument to be made for the classical education system. Of course that system doesn't exist anymore, the halfhearted attempts at teaching students Latin and greek notwithstanding, but the way it was once taught had its value.

Nock gives this sort of defense of the old curriculum:

If education be a preparation for living, rather than for
getting a living; a preparation for getting the most and best
out of this gift of existence which has been dealt out to us
unasked, undesired, and which at times seems specious,—if
this be so, our equipment gave us two advantages which could
hardly have been come at by any other means. I have never
seen either of them mentioned in any apologia for the ancient
regime, though they are so obvious that they must have been
noticed by some one. Perhaps they seemed too obvious to be
worth mentioning; or more probably, like the names of countries on a map, they are so obvious as to be easily overlooked.
80]
The literatures of Greece and Rome comprise the longest,
most complete and most nearly continuous record we have
of what the strange creature known as Homo sapiens has been
busy about in virtually every department of spiritual, intellectual and social activity. That record covers nearly twentyfive hundred years in an unbroken stretch of this animated
oddity's operations in poetry, drama, law, agriculture, philosophy, architecture, natural history, philology, rhetoric, astronomy, logic, politics, botany, zoology, medicine, geography,
theology,—everything, I believe, that lies in the range of
human knowledge or speculation. Hence the mind which
has attentively canvassed this record is much more than a
disciplined mind, it is an experienced mind. It has come, as
Emerson says, into a feeling of immense longevity, and it
instinctively views contemporary man and his doings in the
perspective set by this profound and weighty experience. Our
studies were properly called formative, because beyond all
others their effect was powerfully maturing. Cicero told the
unvarnished truth in saying that those who have no knowledge
of what has gone before them must forever remain children;
and if one wished to characterise the collective mind of this
present period, or indeed of any period,—the use it makes of
its powers of observation, reflection, logical inference,—one
would best do it by the one word immaturity.

Not really, it's really fucking retarded and can't be explained in a way that doesn't make you sound like a /pol/tard. The funniest thing that happened recently was at one of the major conferences was a bunch of black medievalists were convinced the white attendees were white suprematists out to kill them so they demanded armed security guards, the conference obviously said they can't do that so they've been trying to destroy the conference, the person spearheading the campaign runs a for-profit OA vanity publishing racket that believes blog posts are valid academic research.

>Not really
I doubt that...
>it's really fucking retarded
Okay
>and can't be explained in a way that doesn't make you sound like a /pol/tard
Quit being a literal reddit bitch you faggot and elaborate. You don't have a name. You can't be invalidated by your fellow anemic faggots you assume populate the board here. For fucks sakes.
>a bunch of black medievalists were convinced the white attendees were white suprematists
So literally we wuz europe. Its about time to start shooting, no?

>So literally we wuz europe
No, well kind of, It's more "muh Berbers" they're more interested in expanding the area studied in medievalism which is currently focused on Europe to include Africa.

>not simultabeously accusing them of cultural appropriation and glorifying slavery and kicking their jiggaboo asses out, turning this gay LARP fest into global news for a month
user why?

>but the way it was once taught had its value.
I do agree, and in my ideal educational system, (though, ideal to the current situation of modern life, and not ideal if I modern life), they would be taught.
>If education be a preparation for living, rather than for getting a living
While, once the hypothetical premise were assumed, the rest of the conclusions follow, if one does not think that education, (in the current age), should be "preparation for living," surely, the rest of the argument does not follow. Maybe if I studied the argument, I would see that too much is sacrificed by having a more practical view towards education, but as of now, I am convinced the primary goal of education generally should be providing the capacity to the students to enter any profession they wished, (though this entails a great deal more labor than you might think).

Skimming this passage, (as I have to, as I don't have the time now to closely examine it), it seems to be me a much stronger argument for a personal study of the classical languages and the classics, and much less so for incorporating it into education generally.

I think there are some skills that have to be learned as a matter of necessity and less because of their ideal nature. Examples include taxes and doing laundry, (which I hope if not offensively mundane). Perhaps there are some so fortunate as to be totally above such pursuits, (because of privilege, or initial labor that has placed them out of want), or that the attainment of such ability should occupy a small portion of their life, even the early part of it. Still, I see some pieces of knowledge to be necessary than beautiful, and I think securing a career of such monumental importance that virtually every part of education should be directed in this way, while giving students as mush opportunity as possible to enter any career path they wished.

I would have Latin taught, but not for the reasons mentioned, but I think the focus placed on it by the prestigious public or private schools in Britain excessive in the circumstances of modern life.

Thank you for the post though, and I plan to closely attend to the argument when I have more free.

what about old spanish?

Your intuition is correct even though the passage I posted, as I realize now, is rather lacking in context. The sort of education Nock is talking about would really be an elective for a small minority of people who were suited to it, and not the subject matter of mass schooling. I just thought I would post it because it always stuck in my mind as a very good argument for learning Greek and Latin and studying their texts.

>burning the Constitution
>setting America up as a Catholic theocracy
>concordat with the Church
The actual state of of Christcucks

You are embarrassing

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what's NOT politicized? i expect classicism and medievalism to be a shitshow currently because they were the last of the humanities that weren't 100% on the progressive train

but they won't last long without bending the knee like everybody else has

classical christian schools in the US BTFO everybody else

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Then I am a great deal more sympathetic to it if that is indeed the conclusion, but I still do not know how it would ever be determined at an early stage of life if one's genius tended to an interest in classic literature, even as a hobby, which would require an immense amount of study and application to ever adequately pursue. We cannot all be so lucky to have enterprising and accomplished parents such James Mill and Leopold Mozart, who just happen to raise children with a natural genius in subjects where we have at least attainments enough to sufficiently instruct them and encourage the industrious exercise of their talents, like those aforementioned men did in the cases of John Stuart Mill and Amadeus Mozart respectively.

The compromise, I believe, would be, with the assumption that one would like to raise a great man or woman if they could, would be to provide an education that would prepare them for anything their genius or passion will ultimately direct them. Progressive education seeks this in some degree, but the lack of rigorous labor imposed on the students, the shallow manner in which subjects are treated, and the results certainly do not recommend this method, that is if the interests of the students were truly the object.

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I agree, I honestly can't imagine how you would incorporate anything like it into our education system. The schools he describes that taught this sort of thing were tiny, and composed of children whose parents typically knew some Latin and Greek and had started them off when they were barely more than infants. He makes it sound almost like a trade that a small group of people practiced and was somewhat passsed down by generation.

So again it's not the most useful account in terms of practical application, it's just an argument that some people at least would benefit from that kind of education.

i went to a public high school in Italy and studied both Latin and Greek

>He makes it sound almost like a trade that a small group of people practiced and was somewhat passsed down by generation.
That's a very compelling interpretation: that he really wishes to reduce classical studies to trades that were once far more common when Western civilization was more primitive, and can still be found in many less developed countries, especially more agrarian ones.

Interpreting it in this manner shows the absurdity, even if well-intended, of this approach, in comparing the sort of trades that were once ever tralatitious within families to intellectual pursuits such as classical studies, in which we see the former crude, mundane, and ultimately suited to lower sort of intellects, while the latter demands a intellect and passion for interests that could never be reliably expected of one's progenitors.

Even in the examples that I gave where one art was effectively bequeathed to one's offspring, with all the encouraging circumstances of incredible precociousness in the child, and ambition and skill in the parents, only Mozart became a composer of the first rank, while John Stuart Mill, (demonstrating astounding accomplishments as a child that were in no way inferior to that of Mozart as a child prodigy), while certainly having done his part of a writer, did not become an intellectual of such towering and contributory influence as might have been hoped from his first attainments.

On a somewhat related note, (as I can not deny that I have drawn myself into a rather unrelated tangent), the lives of Karl Witte, Camille Saint-Saëns, and John Philip Barretier, while perhaps in their emergence, surpass even that of Mozart, show how much or qualities, though principally fortune, it seems, contribute to the making of great men.

Karl Witte, whose extraordinarily abilities as a child appeal to have been largely due to his father's methods of child-rearing, seems to have contributed ultimately little to the world beyond his masterful essay on Dante. Camille Saint-Saëns, while being the greatest child prodigy that was ever known, as a performer, seemed to have settled on being the foremost organist of his time when the instrument was largely ignored in music, and the golden age of virtuosos was largely past. As a composer, he seemed to have been torn between the trends of progressivism and conservatism, producing little of worth compositionally.

Finally, we have Barretier, who perhaps more than any other person in history, may have been the greatest prodigy in literature the world has ever seen. The profundity and multifariousness of his attainments are scarcely believable, and seem to suggest an supernatural cause, or one that is utterly known that would sufficiently explain such a capacity. However, he died in the "20th year of his life, having given a proof how much may be performed in so short a time by indefatigable diligence," and uncommon genius.

You're doing better than all the /r9k/ers currently enrolled in university.

pagliacci pepe is the only good pepe

>becoming a classics major

Would this be your ultimate career path?

Let's assume we could not make our ultimate passion our career, (which is reserved to a very fortunate few, even if they are not necessarily great men). I think one should project as well as one could what would be the minimum income, job security, career achievement, and job fulfillment one would need to be happy.

This is difficult enough, but I know of no other way to ratiocinatively determine a career path if pleasure and passion are not already concomitant.

>career
i'll just get Andrew Yang's $1000 and be happy

I mean to say if passion and a career in which the aforementioned qualities are high are not already concomitant.
K.

Pseud glasses.

I'm doing Mechanical Engineering, user. I just like learning languages and have an interest in rhetoric.

>those glasses
neck yourself desu

Oh, okay.

this basically, a moral and economic order founded on Christian principles, with a foreign policy that reflects Bernie Sanders and Trump (on his better days). An economically statist and culturally conservative party could build a winning coalition that would last a generation

reddit

>classical
>muh culture
It's a white supermacist secret club and all other freshmen except you already knew it

it's not my fault, it's the s o y-christian author

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how do you create the coalition? you don't have a christian majority without minorities, and minorities will never support you

You do not have to frame it in explicitly Christian terminology. Advocating for a more communitarian and producerist society in which the polity's productive assets are widely distributed while ensuring that the administrative state is directed towards achieving these ends (and NOT dismantling it) should satisfy all parties

the intersectional coalition is held together by promising that the wealth and prestige of existing institutions will be eviscerated and looted among their ranks, i don't think you can promise them anything like that

doesn't matter how many "based black men" you find that will take a pic with you

You're a freshman, not a professor. Why are you joining clubs like that and not going out to parties and having lots of sex? You're going to regret wasting the time of your life on this.

2018 is over user

I abhor physical contact and don’t know emotional attachment

t. can't do basic math

>dude just have lots of sex man
Fuck you and you hedonistic views

inb4 t. triggered incel

2011+7 does not equal 2019

look at it again

I did. Still doesn’t add up

I don’t know if this is bait

I’m not baiting, it equals 2018!!!!

>dropped classical languages
>picked up asian languages
>I'm in the highest language level uni offers now and speak to professors only in the language

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>you'll regret not being a degenerate
>can't you see all those happy degenerates around?

How do I start learning Greek and Latin? Would really appreciate a response.

I got recommended “Reading Latin” by Jones and Sidwell. Though I can’t personally attest for the quality, it seems it’s focus is learning the grammar alongside original Latin texts
I like the idea, so I think I’ll get it.

u mad bro

Not him but get btfo

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