Untranslatability

Translating Finnegan's Wake would be incredibly difficult, but by no means impossible. It certainly wouldn't be a direct translation, anyway, but you would certainly be able to communicate the same ideas with different words.

Mallarmé comes to mind, his work is untranslatable. Unfortunate for us english speakers

>You might have to use more words to get the exact same idea across
Thats exactly what I mean. People who speak more than one language know that there are certain parts of a language that are unique to that it, such as sentence structure etc. Sure you can translate the idea, but something that is said beautifully in one language may not sound as beautiful in another, even if the idea is communicated

It's like that in english too.

When linguists talk about whether something is translatable or not, it's purely about whether you can communicate the same idea or not. Not whether you can do it in as few words or not, or whether you can do it as beautifully (which is entirely subjective anyway).

I'm not saying works can't be translated, they can be. I'm saying that there are certain aspects qualities unique to every language that are untranslatable to others, even if an idea is communicable. Just because something is deemed as "translatable" because the idea can be communicated, does not mean that the qualities and nuances of a language are also translatable

>does not mean that the qualities and nuances of a language are also translatable
But they are. That is what it means that you can communicate the same idea. You just have to use more words. Claiming otherwise is some Buzzfeed or Cracked clickbait-level incompetence akin to "10 Untranslateable words (that we still somehow have translated for your convience)."

I imagine A la recherche du temps perdu and Der Mann ohne Eigenschaften are a mess to translate. You definitely loose things in the process.
Most poetry, or style-heavy novels, anything, really, that relies heavily on musicality and rythm, will be a challenge.

A la recherche du temps perdu has a great German translation because there are structural similarities. Der Mann ohne Eigenschaften wll be completely misunderstood in translation because Musil uses a Wienerisch inflection to humorous effect. It's obvious when people talk about it like it's a serious novel about philosophical ideas, when in fact it's a mockery of those very same ideas. The difficulty in translation for Ulysses is vastly overstated by solipsistic English Lit Majors by the way.

You have to understand that there is more to language than as a means of communicating an idea. For example, structurally, Bangla is vastly different from English. An idea written in Bangla can be translated to English and vice versa, but obviously the language is different and therefore the sentence will be completely different. There is a certain rhythm of Bangla that is not translatable to English, and I'm sure other bilingual anons will agree that each language has untranslatable aspects. Of course there are languages that are similar enough to eachother that certain structural aspects and nuances can also be translated. But certain languages like Bangla and English for example are so far apart that even though an idea can be translated, certain qualities of each language will not be captured in the translation. You don't have the framework to appreciate this unless you are fluent in another language

>and therefore the sentence will be completely different.
I've not disputed this. This also has nothing to do with whether it's translateable or not.

>I'm sure other bilingual anons will agree that each language has untranslatable aspects
I am bilingual, and no, there's not.

I think user is talking about specific feelings or images that words in one language might evoke, that any reasonable translation might lose, because those feelings/images are so inherently tied to the culture of the former language and where it is spoken. It's less a case of something being traditionally untranslatable, because it might be, and easily so, but there being no way to recover that feeling of the original word, because it's simply the wrong language; the association cannot be made in the new language, nor could it be made by someone who isn't intimately familiar with the original language and the place where it is spoken.

An example is this little poem by Nils Ferlin;

>Inte ens en grå liten fågel
>som sjunger på grönan kvist
>det finns på den andra sidan
>och det tycker jag nog blir trist.

>Inte ens en grå liten fågel
>och aldrig en björk som står vit -
>men den vackraste dagen
>som sommaren ger
>har det hänt att jag längtat dit.

It evokes images of white birches in the Scandinavian summer; a tree and a season that very much evokes feelings in me that no birch during a summer anywhere else might.

>Not even a little grey sparrow
>that sings in the greenwood tree
>exists over there, on the other side,
>and how sad such a place must be

>Not even a little grey sparrow
>nor a single silver-white birch.
>But the loveliest day that the summer gives
>have I longed in my heart to be there.

It's still a nice little poem, but the translation, through no fault of its own, fails to conjure up the specific images that Ferlin was looking for.

As already said, sometimes, in particular in poetry, you'll have to decide which aspect is most important to translate. But nothing is impossible to translate.

Some languages just lack the associations that similar words in another language might have. It's about culture at that point, and how languages are both shaped by the culture, and shape it in turn.

I think you're missing my point. I'm not debating that languages are translatable, but that languages are not comparable 1:1, surely you can't disagree that each language is different?

>I am bilingual, and no, there's not.
What other language do you speak? Are you saying that it sounds exactly the same as English? In my case, there is a specific rhythm to Bangla that does not transfer to a language of a different family. It is these sorts of differences that are untranslatable

Are there any books where the translation is better?

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I'll take your word for it; my german isnt good enough that I can hope to check for myself. I only mentioned Proust because his work is such an absolute unparalleled masterclass on what the french language can accomplish, it always struck me as a hard job to give it a proper translation.
Read Musil a while ago, it did have that constant ironic vibe to it. The french translation comes from poet Philippe Jaccottet, so I trust it to be fairly good ; although again, it's not like I can pretend to check that it really is.

Exactly, a choice has to be made of which aspect to translate. Thus, the entire essence of an original may not be translated as tradeoffs have to be made to recreate it in a new language

>Some languages just lack the associations that similar words in another language might have.
Yes, languages rarely have a 1:1 correspondence. Which is why you sometimes have to use more words to communicate the same idea or concept. That's not the same thing as something being untranslatable. The only people who believe this are the people who write Buzzfeed articles.

>but that languages are not comparable 1:1
Literally no one has disputed this in this trhead. People in this thread have, however, made claims like
>You cannot translate Finnegan's Wake.

I suppose you'd have to look at famous writers translating each other. Baudelaire with Poe for example? Not that I think Baudelaire's translation is any better, but some other similar example might hold your answer.

You could translate the entirety of it, but it might make it overly long and cumbersome to read. For example, I wouldn't be particularly interested in reading the same poem two or three times but translated differently to capture different aspects of it.

An author might be great for the themes and philosophical ideas present in his work whilst still being nothing but a decent prose stylist. A skilled translator could in theory improve on such a work as far as prose goes.

However, there are certain aspects of language that are simply impossible to capture in a translation, no matter how many translations you read

Ok, Buzzfeed.

Well, if the idea's to make a better book that the original and not necessarily to translate if fairly, I'd take the competence of an accomplished writer over that of an accomplished translator. Not that this debate has much sense though.

You agreed with me that languages are not comparable 1:1. It is the things that make them incomparable that are untranslatable. I doubt you are truly bilingual or fluent in your second language if you really can't appreciate the uniqueness of different languages

Any translator of worth is going to be a competent writer in his own right.

>It is the things that make them incomparable that are untranslatable.
This is simply not true. For example, the Swedish word 'lagom' is often cited as having no corresponding word in English as is sometimes, erroneously, claimed to be untranslatable. However, I can still explain to you what the word means in English by saying "a moderate amount or just the right amount," which is a translation.

>I doubt you are truly bilingual or fluent in your second language
English is my second language.

Not in my book. You get to be considered a writer if you write. Not if you solely translate. Not that I don't believe a translator's skills to be potentially transferrable to actual writing, but one still has to prove it.

>However, I can still explain to you what the word means in English by saying "a moderate amount or just the right amount
You have to look past mere meanings of words to understand my point. I'm not disagreeing that meanings of words can be translated. For example, a swedish sentence might have a certain rhythm that can't be translated, even though the underlying meanings of the words can be translated. I know this is certainly the case for the languages I speak. And like the user who quoted nils ferlin said, there are certain cultural connotations to words that are also difficult to capture in a different language

Most notable translators do plenty writing themselves, afaik.

>a swedish sentence might have a certain rhythm that can't be translated
If the rhythm would ever be important to translate, though I can't think of a single case where this would be the case, you could still so it.

>there are certain cultural connotations to words that are also difficult to capture in a different language
Which you can explain by using more words. I don't know how many times this has to be said for you to get it through your head.

Well shit, nothing left to disagree about then!

Yes certain things can be explained using more words, but I'm talking about things like poems that have certain artistic qualities to them. To use that user's Nils Ferlin example, I'm sure if you used more words you could translate the beauties described in the original language, but that that point a tradeoff has been made. Thats what I mean when I say some things can't be captured. Also, I don't know how similar Swedish and English are, but there is most definitely a beautiful rhythm to Sanskrit languages that cannot be captured in English, no matter how many translations you read. Thats also what I mean when I say that there are certain aspects that cannot be translated.

I recall looking into this subject a while ago but all I could find was this tvtropes page
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoldenTranslator

That other user exaggerates. The translation conjures up about the same images. English and Swedish being (though somewhat distantly) related certainly helps in this regard.

>there is most definitely a beautiful rhythm to Sanskrit languages that cannot be captured in English
Ah, so this is just a simple case of regular old Indian nationalism and linguistic exceptionalism. Sorry, but no. Many languages have exotic, maybe even strange or straight up unique, features, but none is exceptional.

I have read Ulysses translated, it's not as good as in english but it was very enjoyable.
It depends wildly on the method the translator will choose. On my case, the translator was a bit ""liberal"" and gave himself the freedom to do a more loose translation but that kept the humor, the nasty parts, so it is a translation of a work that already exists but at the same time it is its own thing, a new creation...I have also read excerpts of other translations and they were truly awful and were sterilized, ripped of its nastiness, zero humor.

You could probably translate it to swedish.

Gabriel Garcia Marquez publicly claimed that the Rabassa English translation of 100 Years of Solitude was actually better than the original work when it was in Spanish

There is a popular translation of Finnegans Wake in chinese.

Edgar Allan Poe, I've heard.

Wrong. You said it yourself, if you are making concessions you are also not translating fully.

There is a swedish translation so yes.

two

det var som fan

All of you anons arguing about translations are missing the central fact that language is an inherently imprecise medium.

Most words refer to abstractions, ranges of generalized concepts. A cat is a cat, but two cats are not identical. Few sentences relay unambiguous content.

Пaдeниe (бaбaбaдaлгapaгтaкaмминappoннкoннбpoннтoннeppoннтyoннтaннтpoвappoyнayнcкa- yнтyхyхypдeнeнтepнaк!) пpeждe пpямoгo кaк cтoлб cмopчкa пepecкaзывaeтcя пoyтpy в пocтeли, a зaтeм вce вpeмя бытия в тeчeниe иcтopии хpиcтиaнcкoгo тpyбaдypcтвa. Beликoe пaдeниe co cтoль кpaтким yпoминaниeм pyхa Финнeгaнa (впpoчeм, выpaжaяcь пo-гэльcки, мyжчины плoтнoгo), чтo eгoгo кpyглoглaвиe cкopo oтcылaeт вoпpoшaтeля к зaдy, к зaпaдy в oтнoшeнии игo тoлcтocлoвия: и их пoпepeвopoпoтнoe мecтo pacпoлoжeнo нa иcхoдe из пapкa, гдe yлoжили opaнжи зpeть нa зeлeни co вpeмeн любви дyблинeйpa пepвoгo к cвoeй лиффe

Zettels Traum

There exist even polish translations of both Ulysses and FW, they are accomplishments of decades of work and people who read english versions claim they are as fine as they can possibly be.
Sure, all books resonate best when read by *native* language users. But Yea Forums's hatred for translations is nothing more than pseudery.

I don't hate translations but the amount of times I've found things mistranslated or even completely left out in translations of Japanese literature has shown me that mistakes are not so uncommon as one might think.

>Btw it’s hilarious to me that Derriida could not speak English but still pronounced Finnegans Wake the most important book ever. Tells you everything about that clique of French “intellectuals.”
Also Yes Derrida could speak English:
youtube.com/watch?v=7s8SSilNSXw

lol what a fucking BTFO. as proven by the second reply, Derrida's English is actually very good, better than many native speakers, with only a slight accent.

get out of here you posturing pseud. don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The translation to Spanish from Salas Subirat is really beautiful (I have read both English and Spanish versions).

Translatability refers to whether something can be translated at all. Nothing is untranslatable.

>You might have to use more words to get the exact same idea across
What if the message lies in its brevity? Dumbass

Murakami and anybody whom Goethe translated

Shakespeare would not have perdured throughout the centuries and across many mediums in numerous cultures if his only worth lied in his poetry. You are doing a disservice to him if you think that and out yourself as a pseud.

>chinese
If it's popular they probably butchered it and is something completely different to the original. And unless you know chinese and can tell for yourself that it's faithful to the oriignal, you should shut the fuck up with this chinese translation shit.

Mallarme is shit, dude.

You are a monolingual cuck, aren't you? How can you even spout all that trash in your posts if you can't even compare a novel or a poem in the original and translation?

>the difficulty in translation for Ulysses is vastly overstated by solipsistic English Lit Majors by the way.
Wrong. How can you even translate a chapter like Oxen and the Sun when the entire concept behind it is rooted strictly in the English language? Have you even read Ulysses?

Read Ulysses in both french and english. Both french translations are great, in fact. You guys are childish. If Mallarmé is translatable so is Joyce (even Finnegans).

Then you can get that across by taking liberties in other areas (granted, of course, that it can’t be translated in a direct enough to not have to use them to begin with).

Am I missing out on donquixote by not reading in spanish?

No

That’s good. I’m reading a version with tons of footnotes explaining the jokes and historical contexts, so if the prose isn’t meaningful then I’m recieving the intended message.

>Shakespeare would not have perdured throughout the centuries and across many mediums in numerous cultures if his only worth lied in his poetry
Yes, he would have. Dostoevsky, Faulkner, and many writers with no real genius at all are world famous.

>If Mallarmé is translatable so is Joyce (even Finnegans).
I'd go as far as to say even an esl could never appreciate Finnegans Wake

How can you even translate a chapter like Oxen and the Sun when the entire concept behind it is rooted strictly in the English language?

There's a dude on Amazon who thinks George Chapman's Homer translations are superior to the originals

amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RA6KXWRV302V5/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0691048916

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Don't even bother reading The Knight in Panther's Skin if you don't speak Georgian. It's great but its "essence" is Georgian and does not translate properly, if that makes sense

How do you know they aren't?

damn it. what a shame. i was really really eager to read "The Knight in Panther's Skin"

In what way is it rooted strictly to the English language? I think you're being too reductive.

Taking for example, the user says that a translation of Der Mann ohne Eigenschaften would be misunderstood because it couldn't transmit the "Viennese inflection" and thus the ironic aspect of the work would be missed in a direct translation. However, this is only the case if the translator is inept and themselves miss the satirical bent to the novel. A translator worth his salt would incorporate that into the novel. Sure you might miss some cultural nuances, you might have to take some liberties or exaggerate in order to make the parody clear (you could also remedy some of these issues with a preface by the translator, which are often included in translation works). But at the end of the day, any idea is transmissible in some form, even dumbed down, even if it doesn't conform to the exact shape it would have had in its original language.

No. I’m bilingual with some basic knowledge of a handful of other languages. More than that though I come from the academic world of linguistics.

>Oxen and the Sun is written in over twenty different styles, each one parodied chronologically. The episode begins with literal translations of early Latinate prose, moves into Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse, then the Renaissance works of various authors, then up into 18th and 19th century novels. In the last few pages, the style dissolves into a mix of Irish dialects and Dublin slang.
Its untranslatable.

If it’s the feeling of historical progression you want, then you could just base the translation on literary periods of the language you’re translating into instead. In the final chapter you could just substitute the Irish dialects with dialects from that language instead.

But then what’s the point? It’s no longer Dublin and it’s no longer Joyce.

The point would be that it’s not untranslatable.

>and it’s no longer Joyce.
I mean, a translation is by definition going to be different from the original text. Where do you draw the line between when it stops being a work by the original author and when does it become an original work inspired by the original author’s text?

culture.pl/en/article/the-strange-case-of-translating-finnegans-wake-into-polish

German poets, probably. Mostly because it's a very autistic language while still leaving you with a reasonable room to play with details. I have only read them in German because it's my mother tongue but I could very well imagine that especially Goethe's works would lose a lot of value when translated to, say, English for example.

Dante

The one thing that I find really untranslatable is regional dialects or slang, I know there are writers who wrote characters speaking specifically in those tongues and there just simply isn't a good way to go about translating them if you think about it. It makes no sense to match it up with like a regional American accent for example and in most cases that would make it a hundred times worse so it seems most translators opt to just ignore it completely when it does happen

Trakl is my favorite poet and I wonder how much I am missing only knowing the English translation

I don't know any German at all