If he wins

If he wins the world cup is he official the GOAT? or he only needs to win the Euro 2020?

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For the love of all that is good in the world, shut up with this 'GOAT' shit.

What if the USA wins the 2022 world cup

This meme is not funny

He'll never be better than Messi. Argue "greatness" all you want, I care about "best."

Thats a big if.

he can't be GOAT because he's a statpadding ball shover. Even renato gaucho is more talented than him. Who is renato gaucho you ask? exactly.

holy based post from a burger

Literally no one will stop portugal. Team is just too much stacked. In the world cup even more if the talents rise as they should. Take the portugalpill

Yes. It will be like Pelé in 1970. Everyone considers him slow or detriment to the team then miraculously won the WC one last time.

Oh yes, forgot to mention. Adding to everything I said, Messi also played in the most stacked team in history. Thus making Ronaldo's achievements that much more impressive. But yes, to answer your question, they are 2-0 in UCL KO stages in favor of Messi. Encounters were in 2008/2009, and 2010/2011 UCL. This alone does not at all compensate for the massive gulf in class between Messi and Ronaldo in CL.

Ronaldo will never be the GOAT, unless he will get reborn as a better player

>Messi also played in the most stacked team in history.
Yup, which means people expect Barca to win the treble which they don't expect from Real so they can throw the league and cup and only focus on the CL. Despite this Ronnie has only won one more CL than Messi while Messi is one of only a handful of people that have won two trebles when Ronnie hasn't even won one.

So yes, Messi shitting on Ronaldo when they actually face each other in the CL on top of winning not one, but two trebles makes up for only winning one fewer CL.

What if FRA wins the 2022 world cup

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btfo

Ronaldo has won 2 more CLs than Messi, and has been to 3 more finals. 2005/2006 UCL does not count for Messi here given that he literally didn't even play in the quarters, semis or finals. And only scored one (1) goal in the entire competition, and it was in the group stage. His team was just already stacked enough to win without him. Meanwhile Ronaldo was the single top UCL scorer in each of the 5 successful campaigns (with 2 teams no less). Messi just 2, as in 2014/2015 he was tied with Neymar and Ronaldo. Also, were not just talking accomplishments, in which Ronaldo obviously has more. But also their individual stats, in which Ronaldo stomps. So no, it is not enough. Get over yourself Ahmed. Pic related is their CL stats while Ronaldo was at Madrid. Their gap is laughable isn't it?

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look how this amerimutt is desperately trying to move the goal posts after being exposed. look at him seethe.

look at that cope.

Sorry sweaty, Messi has the medal from the 2005/2006 CL so he's only one CL win behind. But sure, if you want to disregard his CL win then we can disregard Ronaldos Euro win where he watched his team win the game from the bench because they're good enough without him.

>Ronaldo is better during this cherry picked period where Ronaldo broke the transfer record to join Real Madrid at 24

How about their all time stats, where Messi has a better goal per game ratio? And why did Messi score twice as many goals as Ronnie this CL season when Ronaldo isn't being carried by Bale, Ramos, Modric, Marcelo and Kroos?

And read my post again, Messi is playing on a team with the ambition to win the treble every year which nobody expects from Ronaldo so he focuses only on the CL and Messi still has a better goal per game ratio in the CL across their entire careers.

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Big brain soccer aficionados will never recognize him as the "GOAT"

What if CHI wins the world cup only with boomers?

I'd fuck messi

Nobody cares about a leafs opinion on this matter.
Go back to your general.

Poonaldo couldn't make it in Barcelona team not good enough! So he went with Papa Perez marketing fraud! He is even that stupid to believe he is better then the goat! Madrid know he is fraud and marketing product they know how and why they created him and got rid of him at once!

It is not the same thing at all as the Euro because Ronaldo played in every single KO game, and scored or assured 66% of the goals in the KO stages. Messi literally did not play and was involved in 0% of KO goals.
Oh yes, how arbitrary the time period of 2009-2018, a fucking decade. Incredibly cherry picked.
Tell me, why do you think Ronaldo's stats look so different entire career wise, vs say 2006-2009 onwards?Any ideas? Well, Cristiano played as a traditional winger in Sir Alex's 4-4-2, in other words he was essentially a midfielder for the first several years of his career. Look at pic related, UEFA TOTS 2008. Ronaldo is deployed as a midfielder, Messi as a forward.This is why his stats are so skewed, it was not untill around 2007 that he began to play a more aggressive role (Since 2006, Ronaldo has had a higher goal ratio than Messi in a season 10 times) . He did not score a goal for the first 30 or so games in the CL. Which obviously skews the stats, and is not an accurate representation of Ronaldo's dominance over the past 13 years or so. That fact you say 2009-2018 is cherry picked, again a fucking decade, honestly makes you look so fucking stupid.
Yes, Messi scored twice as many goals as Ronaldo this year in CL. But Ronaldo did the same in in 4 separate occasions. Go ahead revel in the fact he outscored Ronaldo fo the first time since 2012. Really makes you think.

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Doesn't Neymar have more World Cup goals than Messi and Ronaldo?

;tldr

Lol, you typed all that wall of text just to admit that he's being carried because he didn't score at Manure and scored half as many goals as Messi when he doesn't have Marcelo, Ramos, Bale, Modric and Kroos to carry him.

And yes, picking a limited part of a single competition during a limited time period when the player is in his prime is the literal textbook definition of cherry picking.

I'll ask again, why can Ronnie only win the CL if he doesn't face Messi? Why did Ronnie do fuck all against Messi who scored against him in the 2009 final and 2011 semis?

Because Messi was the best player in the world with the best squad in the world in 2009. Funnily enough, Ronaldo still had the highest goal ratio in UCL KO stages this year, he scored 100% of Juve's goals, 5 goals in 4 games. Messi scored 6 goals in 6 games, scoring 50% of Barca's goals.
Pic related should refute any argument you have, and if not, I'd like to see your counter-arguments. It looks at Liga, UCL and NT performances over the past decade.
tl:dr; Messi slightly better in Liga, Ronaldo much much better in UCL and NT.
I'm not addressing your
>Ronaldo was carried by Modric Bale etc.
argumento because it is obviously fucking stupid, I'm sure you're just trolling. Given that Messi himself was part of the most stacked team of all time just prior.

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Just imagine how good you have to be to be at nineteen the best player in the best team the world have seen! Can you imagine? Luckily for you even if you don't have imagination Messi is still playing you can watch him! Or to put it in the words of ronaldinhio when asked who is the best player in the world?: Messi, siempre Messi!

so you're telling me that since Ronaldo came to Juventus everyone is incapable of scoring but him ?
sounds to me like he unbalances the team a lot and basically needs to be fed balls like no one else in the world

He was 21 years old in 2009. Messi is a phenomenal player, one of the best ever. I have never claimed otherwise. He is just not quite in the GOAT conversation.

>Because Messi was the best player in the world with the best squad in the world in 2009.
Yup, which again means people expect Messi to win the treble which they don't expect from Ronaldo so he can only focus on the CL. How many trebles have Ronnie won compared to Messi?

>Pic related should refute any argument you have, and if not, I'd like to see your counter-arguments.

I don't need to, the picture refutes itself because a direct quote from it is "Many people will then point to Messi's superior dribbling and passing/vision, and say that makes him better than Ronaldo, completely ignoring results.
The truth is they are both the primary offensive forces for their teams, and so goals are ultimately what matters--not play style."

The author himself literally says individual skill isn't measured on individual skill but on team trophies won and says goals is the only thing that matters when Messi has scored more club goals than Ronaldo across their entire careers despite being two years younger and have a better goal per game ration for club and country combined.

>Given that Messi himself was part of the most stacked team of all time just prior.

Just prior? In the last two CLs Messi has scored more goals than the rest of Barcelona combined, the second most amount of goals comes from the opposing team scoring own goals and Pique has scored more goals than Suarez.

How many CLs did Ronaldo win at Real before Bale joined the team? You retards act like one player can win the CL all by himself but the second Ronaldo is in the same situation Messi has been in the last couple of years, he scores half as many goals as Messi and gets knocked out by a bunch of children in Ajax.

You can't make the system argument when Ronaldo has already proved himself with different teams. He literally won every major individual and collective award possible with Manchester and Madrid.
You also ignored the whole quote:
>Many people will then point to Messi's superior dribbling and passing/vision, and say that makes him better than Ronaldo, completely ignoring results.
The truth is they are both the primary offensive forces for their teams, and so goals are ultimately what matters--not play style. With Messi, Barcelona plays elaborate and beautiful football that perfectly complements his aforementioned strengths. With Ronaldo, his teams play a much simpler football: he can score from anywhere, at anytime. So their playstyle is often reduced to "just lob a bunch of crosses into the box, he'll put a few of those away", or, "just give the ball to Ronaldo near the box; he'll figure out the rest." This may not be as aesthetically pleasing as Messi's playstyle, but it is no less effective, and it is more adaptive (look at Messi's Argentina performance for example), as the statistics and trophy case show.
Yes, Juve were eliminated by Ajax. You will notice Ronaldo scored in both legs. Messi on the other hand, was part of one of the biggest choking events in UCL history for the 2nd year straight. Meanwhile Ronaldo does the opposite like Wolfsburg 2016, or Atlético 2019. There are levels to this.

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But poonaldo is?

>How many trebles Ronaldo won?
0
>How many consecutive times Messi won the CL
0
>How many CL's Ronaldo won Before Bale?
1
How many CL's Messi won before Xavi/Iniesta
0

I don't make the system argument, I make the "football is a team game" argument and rating individual skill on team trophies only is the most retarded thing you can do, and which you keep doing when you post that picture.

Messi is better than Ronaldo at every single aspect of the game except for penalties and headers but the only argument you can present is that Ronaldo has won more team trophies.

>You will notice Ronaldo scored in both legs. Messi on the other hand, was part of one of the biggest choking events in UCL history for the 2nd year straight. Meanwhile Ronaldo does the opposite like Wolfsburg 2016, or Atlético 2019. There are levels to this.
Ronaldos only job is to score, Messi is both the main goalscorer and main source of creativity in the team and your argument for why Ronaldo is better is that Messi doesn't pull full back duties on top of that when his team has a defensive meltdown and lets in 3 and 4 goals? Just admit that you've lost the discussion.

Statistically, Messi dominates Ronaldo but in terms of prestigious trophies won Ronaldo is ahead. Anyone who values La Liga League Trophies over a Euro is certifiably insane.

Never mind statistics! You just need to watch them play it is clear as day and night

I find Ronaldo the more aesthetically pleasing to watch during play compare to Messi but Messi is in another level on how much he makes the game look so easy.

>le dribble the ball man
>le wins lots of titles man
pick one

What exactly you find more aesthetically in his play compared to Messi? really curious!

>why won't messy score in an international final or perform outside of uefalona bros? i just want to stop raging all day using faulty logic to discredit Ronaldo but i can't i'm obsessed. it was higuains fault messoy couldn't win, leliga is more important than an international final because it's a team game and messoy had no chance to win the 2014 worldcup on his own, none at all because his team let him down

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even better angle

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Statistically, they're on par. But Ronaldo dominates in the biggest stages. While Messi does better in smaller stages.

thanks m8, I just chose that angle because during the debate I first used the pic it came up that it wasn't a one on one chance cause he had defenders around him but on my image you can see both of them are behind him so they can't affect his play

No they are not! Messi has better goal scoring ratio by far! Also he take less shots per goal and has the heat map of midfielder! Messi has score more goals outside the penaltery and has score more goals involving at least three touches on the ball-tapins! Also Messi has way more assist than poonaldo! So no!

Wow unbelievable Messi miss the goal from time to time! Really makes you think!

His fans really are shameless for saying that wasn't a great scoring opportunity. That's why I don't waste my time arguing with them, they'll ignore every fact if needed in order to deny Cristiano's greatness.

Now actually look at the relevant stats. Here I'll do it for you:

2009-2018 La Liga:
Ronaldo:
292 games, 311 goals, 95 assists
goal ratio: 1.07, g+a ratio: 1.39
Messi:
309 games, 329 goals, 124 assists
goal ratio: 1.06, g+a ratio: 1.47

UCL during same period:
Ronaldo:
101 games, 105 goals, 28 assists
goal ratio: 1.04, g+a ratio: 1.32
Messi:
(92 games, 83 goals, 20 assists)
goal ratio: 0.90, g+a ratio: 1.12

NT competitive 2009-2018
Ronaldo
55 games, 49 goals, 13 assists
goal ratio: 0.89, g+a ratio: 1.13
Messi:
70 games, 29 goals, 22 assists
goal ratio: 0.41, g+a ratio: 0.73

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Thats not the relevant stats and it doesnt show the whole picture!

It’s not possible to shoot more efficiently from outside the penalty area than many players shoot inside it. It’s not possible to lead the world in weak-kick goals and long-range goals. It’s not possible to score on unassisted plays as well as the best players in the world score on assisted ones. It’s not possible to lead the world’s forwards both in taking on defenders and in dishing the ball to others. And it’s certainly not possible to do most of these things by insanely wide margins.

But Messi does all of this and more.

More efficient shooters tend to take more shots. Despite this, Messi is still a trend-breaker:

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Of the 866 players who qualified for that plot — by playing in 50-plus games and averaging at least one shot attempt per game — Messi is the ninth-most efficient shooter overall (Ronaldo is 173rd), and he’s by far the most efficient of anyone with a similar shot volume.

Are you trying to tell me shot efficiency is more important than the stats hereor here ???
If so, I'm fucking done, because you're brain dead. And honestly, I'm just as bad for having ever even attempted to argue something so obvious with you.

Just showing you that if you shoot 100 times per game you will score at the end! it's just to say what everyone knows poonaldo can't score if the whole team is not feeding him balls so he can shoot

To generalize a bit, some of the value
(this metric is known as expected goals). The difference between a player’s actual goals and his expected goals is called “goals above average” (or GAA). Because Messi takes shots that are more likely to go in, his average attempt has an expectation of .182 goals, while the average Ronaldo shot has an expectation of .124 goals — so we would expect Messi’s shooting to be more efficient based on that alone. However, Messi has also exceededthatexpectation by a greater amount than Ronaldo has. Messi scored .220 goals per shot attempt for .038 GAA per goal. Ronaldo scored .139 goals per attempt, so he had .015 GAA per goal.

The percentage of shots Messi makes from outside the penalty area is absolutely stunning. He scores almost as often per shot from outside the penalty area (12.1 percent) as most players do inside it (13.1 percent).

Of 8,335 players in our dataset who have taken at least one shot from outside the box, only 1,835 have scored from that distance at any point. There are 47 players with 50 or more attempts from outside the box without a single goal, and about 500 with at least 20 attempts and no goals. Messi leads the world with 21 goals from outside the penalty area, on just 173 shot attempts.

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Ronaldo takes more than twice as many shots from this distance, but still has fewer goals overall. Messi, meanwhile, scores at a remarkable rate. Adjusting for shot quality with the GAA model, Messi is running 12.6 goals above expectation (based on shot-by-shot expectation, not the trend line in the chart). Ronaldo, with more than twice as many shots, ran just 5.5 goals above expectation, and no one but Messi is higher than 7.5 goals.

UNASSISTED SHOOTING

Despite dishing a large number of assists (more on that to come), Messi sometimes gets called “selfish.” But maybe he isn’t selfish enough.

About 44 percent of Messi’s “open” (non-set piece) shots are “individual plays,” taken without an assist.5This is lower than the 46 percent of unassisted shots for players overall, but Messi scores on these shots more than 23 percent of the time, compared to all players’ 5 percent. Additionally, he gains .089 goals above average on each unassisted shot. Ronaldo gains .023, and the average player is slightly negative at -.004 GAA.

Let’s look at how Messi’s assisted shooting compares to other players with 100 or more shots both assisted and unassisted6:

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>no mention of messi
>romanian paranoia
pottery

Ronaldo only has 17 goals from outside of the box? LMAO he has like 60. I'll fix your image don't worry, acting like it's so hard to make blatant propaganda

Not who you are responding to. But why would any of this mean more than actual real results on a scoreboard? Seriously, this is kind of pathetic, and all those stats are meaningless. So what if Ronaldo takes more shots? That could mean he is better at positioning (which he is) so he finds himself more often with an opportunity to shoot.
What's your response to say this?
Or any of the other stats such as

well I can first say that comparing NT stats is absolute trash with the number of literal farmer that Europeans face every fucking year

None of this matters. This isn't basketball. What matters is that when his teams need him Messi never scores even though according to this shit he's so incredibly efficient. Meanwhile Cristiano whose stats aren't as impressive always delivers and carries his teams on his back. Just stop embarrassing yourself.

That does not explain the massive difference between Ronaldo and the next closest European (28 goals) A fair comparison would then be Messi relative to his federation. Is Messi also by far the highest scorer in his federation?

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Let's continue with the stats since poonaldo fans are fans of stats:

Somehow, Messi has done even better when taking it on his own than when somebody sets him up. Moreover, on unassisted shots he shoots nearly 10 percent and .044 GAA better than the next best player (Sergio Aguero for Manchester City) does, despite taking the fourth-most such shots of the 28 players in the group.

To be clear, you could probably choose any skills for your axes and produce a similar graph. Messi can shoot it just about any which way. Here are some miscellaneous shooting stats he’s accrued at Barcelona:

For one, he goes out of his to relentlessly go shot after shot or using his physicality to compensate if he is playing against much stronger defenders. He is a cross between a trickster and a physical power is everything kind of footballer.

About 8 percent of his shots are “weak” kicks (compared to 6 percent for all players in the data set), but he makes 27 percent of them, and does so more often than we’d expect. He has an average GAA of .026 on those kicks (all players: 5 percent shooting on weak kicks with -.055 GAA). Only 5 percent of his kicks are “strong” ones (compared to 8 percent for all players), but those kicks score 36 percent of the time, and have .251 GAA each! All players have scored on 11 percent of their “strong kick” shots and have an average .051 GAA per shot.

About 12 percent of his shots have “swerve” on them (compared to 10 percent for all players); 31 percent of those swervy kicks score, for a huge .202 GAA (all players: 8 percent, .020 GAA).

On direct free kicks, Messi has scored about 8 percent of the time (compared to all players’ 5 percent), with .021 GAA per shot (Ronaldo has scored on 7 percent with an identical .021 GAA).7

Messi has scored on 86 percent of his penalty kicks, versus an average of 77 percent for all players. But put one check-mark in Ronaldo’s column, as he has scored on 93 percent of his penalty attempts. Since both are the primary PK-takers for both their club and national teams, this difference — if it held up in the long run — would be worth about three-quarters of a goal per year.

Every since Ronaldo won the Euro, There have been a massive plot-twist on comparisons. Its popcorn fodder the longer it gets.

messoy only attempts to score from within 1 or 2 meters of the opponents box, but as you can see his stats are laughable compared to Ronaldo

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To make all those unassisted shots possible, Messi has to take on a lot of defenders one on one. There’s a stat for that, and in my view it’s one of the most revealing, reflecting both Messi’s skill and style, and the relationship between the two. Of all forwards in our data set who’ve played 100-plus games, he “takes on” defenders the most, and he’s the most successful at it.

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This may help explain how Messi gets so many better shots, and why his “unassisted” shots are so good. It also points to the main stylistic difference between Messi and Ronaldo: Ronaldo takes more mid-range shots but misses a lot of them; Messi tries to beat a lot more defenders, loses sometimes, and then makes up for it (and then some) by having better assisting and shooting opportunities as a result. That’s not to say one approach is better than the other, but note that it means that the observed shooting gap between them is at least somewhat exaggerated. While Messi appears to shoot much more efficiently, that’s partly because he loses the ball more during failed take-on attempts, while Ronaldo loses it more because of missed shots. Only the second of those is accounted for in shooting stats. (I’ll get more into how we can account for loss of possession in the touch-by-touch analysis later.)

kek that's literally the opposite
we've seen Ronaldo's team advance many times with him being a ghost, if Messi doesn't score Barcelona gets eliminated
Pretty he not only has the most matches by quite a margin he's also been about the only threat of Portugal for nearly a decade during which he specialized in slaying the likes of San Marino and whatnot
Actual powerhouses would just rotate players

PASSING AND ASSISTS

From the above, you might think Messi is a selfish player. Or you might assume that if Messi is so good at shooting, he’d focus on it to the exclusion of other skills. But, in trueWayne Gretzky-esque fashion, Messi is also one of the top assisters in our data set. Once again, that makes him a crazy outlier: No one else (aside from, yes, Ronaldo) even comes close to his combination of goals scored versus goals dished.

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Had he only started his career in 2009, and retired last year, he would still be the highest European scorer of all time. So he has also been incredibly prolific.

to make matters worse, he is also propagandised as a decent dribbler, while in reality he is a choking midget with 0 international trophies and even less expected take-ons. Meanwhile Cristiano Ronaldo is above and beyond everyone

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The biggest obstacle to evaluating Messi’s passing ability is accounting for the fact that he plays for the most pass-happy team in the world. Watching Barcelona can be a bit like watching a playground game of keep away. Barcelona’s players are infamous for their “tiki-taka” style of play, which relies on an enormous amount of short, high percentage passing. Above all else, they try to maintain possession of the ball until a chance opens up. This sounds like a great strategy, but there’s a reason it isn’t employed universally: To make it work, a team has to be stocked with amazing passers, and it has to have strikers capable of creating chances against set defenses.10

Messi is both of those things. And what’s more, his passing profile is nothing like the other Barcelona forwards, who typically send 72 percent of their passes back or square. Messi is far more likely to try to advance the ball toward the goal, and far more likely to succeed:

theyre both statpadding frauds
ronaldinho was the goat
end of discussion

After all these stats however, messoy still ended up crying despite the best efforts at shifting facts with incomplete datasets and arbitrary statistics such as expectedgoals or expected assists, because football is played on the pitch not in the dank basements of a sweaty foureyed midget who can't face reality. All this is in a stark contrast to Cristiano Ronaldo who delievered whenever it mattered.

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One measure of the quality of a group of passes is how many are completed successfully, but it also matters what happens when those passes get where they’re going. It doesn’t help if a player passes 60 yards to someone swarmed with defenders. So a useful metric (made possible by play-by-play data) is the percentage of a player’s passes that lead to “successful” plays on the other end — meaning the receiving player manages to get off a shot, or passes the ball to someone else, and so on.

As it turns out, not only does Messi pass the ball forward aggressively, he does so accurately, and the balls he delivers are “successful” a very high percentage of the time.

For example, let’s look at Messi’slong ballforward passes from the midfield area. I’ve created a scatter comparing each player’s completion percentage for these passes to the percentage of them that are “successful,” and I’ve shown the volume of long pass attempts for each player as bubble sizes:

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Messi is among the most accurate passers for both metrics, and no one with as many attempts is more accurate.11There are players who complete a higher percentage of these passes and/or are more “successful” with them, but they’re typically being more selective in their attempts. For example, Ronaldo’s “success” rate of 60 percent beats Messi’s 54 percent (with a slightly lower completion percentage), but Ronaldo has only 35 successful long ball passes to Messi’s 81.

Given that, it’s no surprise that Messi excels at the through-ball, the delicate and gorgeous play that requires perfect circumstances and perfect timing to be successful. Messi attempts almost twice as many of these passes as any other forward, and still manages to beat the trend.

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I just counted for Cyprus, Andorra and Feroe Island and he got 12 goals just against these
All of them being "competitive matches"

messoy continues to pass with frightening accuracy despite all his failures and then hang his head in shame when the referee refuses to reward him for it on the scoreboard in the big games. You see, you need to put the ball into the net against top quality teams, not dribble drobble sideways in the midfield, otherwise you are going to get knocked out.

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And then there’s the bread and butter of aggressive passing: moving it toward the goal on the opponent’s side of the field. In attacking territory, no one attacks as often as Messi does, and no one has more success doing so
These passes are where most assists come from, and indeed, Messi has the most assists per game from these kinds of passes of any forward, by a large margin. And again, despite making twice as many attempts as most people, he beats expectations.

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TOUCH BY TOUCH

By this point, it should be evident that Messi has at least a little bit of skill. But there’s still heavy lifting to do: We have to show that he actually makes his team better.

Between Messi’s shots taken and chances created, he is responsible for about 48 percent of Barcelona’s regular (non-penalty, non-set play) shot attempts. Yet he and the players he assists score about 60 percent of Barca’s goals.

In fact, the more involved Messi is in a shot attempt, the more likely his team is to score. He has scored on 22.1 percent of his regular (non-set, non-penalty, non-shootout) shots for Barca himself. The people to whom he’s dished assists and chances have scored on 18.1 percent of their shots. Meanwhile, Barcelona shots that didn’t come from Messi’s foot12or Messi’s passing scored just 12.5 percent of the time.

imagine coping this hard, and thinking "through ball percentage" and "shot efficiency" is a more important statistic than actual goals and assists in a game. Or, you know, winning. messoyfags have been reduced to this.

Sadly for messoy, all these agressive passes invariably end the same way, an embarassing defeat and more autistic coping for his sad fanboys

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Even though Barcelona is one of the best teams in the world, there’s a huge difference between when Messi is involved in creating shots and chances and when he isn’t. Here are the equivalent differences for all players since 2010 with more than 100 games played and four or more shots or assist chances per game:

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*2-1

07-08 Barca-MU semi

Of course, these are raw shooting percentages and don’t account for the types of shots each player is taking or assisting, or the number of attempts. It’s generally harder to stay valuable over a larger number of shots, and we haven’t yet factored in that difficulty.

For that, we turn back to the goals above average model, which compares each shot or chance outcome with its expectation. From this, we can tell whether a player has exceeded expectations for all of his shot attempts and chances created. Then we can do the same for all shots taken by his team without the player’s involvement, and compare the two. For example, if the player scored .02 goals above expectation per shot attempt, and the rest of his team scored -.01 goals less than expectation, that player’s value-added would be +.03 goals per shot (the value above replacement for that player on that team). Now let’s plot that added value against each player’s13total offensive participation (the percentage of team shots he’s involved with):

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Messi's well known for dribbling and trying to get a better shot

Missed shot however is nothing more than a turnover

Now post total turnovers for both (hint: Messi more than doubles Ronaldo over the last decade)

Finally, after however many charts, we see a diminishing return. At least for everyone not named Lionel Messi. He once again tops the field, impervious to the burden.

But that’s just what happens once the shots are lined up. If we want to explore a player’s efficiency, we have to look into his touches more deeply. For this purpose, I created a stat called “possessions used.” It’s a little bit analogous tousage ratein basketball, and incorporates the number of touches in which a player:

Takes a shot;

Passes the ball to a player who takes a shot;

Turns the ball over;

Tries to pass the ball and fails;

Tries to take on a defender and fails.

In other words, it’s a stat meant to reflect anything that ends a team’s possession, whether that outcome is positive or negative. Events that simply prolong the possession (taking on a defender and succeeding, or passing the ball to another teammate who does not take a shot) aren’t factored in.

Obviously passing the ball is an important skill (which I covered a bit above), but for this metric I just want to know about the relative likelihood of good outcomes (goals, assists) to bad ones (misses, turnovers, etc.) when the player does something possession-ending.14Looking at players who “use” more than 15 possessions per game, we can plot possessions used against scoring and assists like so:

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However, I must also add that these stats give the same value to a goal against huesca in the gamper trophy and a goal against a Juventus team in a CL final that conceded only 3 goals across the whole season. As you can see, it's just a very contrived way of coping for midgetlovers.

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>so after all that Exceljerking Messi comes out 0.002 G/A per possession ahead of Ronaldo which amounts to an one more goal contribution every 500 possessions or about 2.5 G/A per season
>all of that while playing with superior offensive talent around him, better coaching and system wholly tailored to him

bravo

Cutting out all the passing that doesn’t end in a shot, Messi generates the most points per touch of any player with a similar usage rate. But there are a couple of other important things to notice in this graph: Despite not taking as many shots, Messi uses more possessions per game than Ronaldo does. This is generally because Messi is much more likely to take on defenders, and thus is much more likely to lose possession of the ball or turn it over entirely. (He is also relatively more likely to set up a potential assist.)

Importantly, turnovers in soccer aren’t as big of a deal as they are in basketball or American football. Shots, even bad ones, are more of a limited resource in soccer than possessions. Risking a turnover to increase your chances of scoring a goal even by a small amount can be worth it.

Finally, Messi’s defense is consistent with that of a high-volume striker.15That he’s practically munchkin-sized (he’s only 1.69 met —ahem, excuse me — 5’ 7” tall) seems not to matter.

To look at Messi’s defensive skill, I combined successful tackles,16interceptions and blocked shots, then adjusted for number of opponent possessions (as I did with offense above).

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It's just proving what you can simply see if you watch the game with stats so your fat ass can understand. And Messi still has more goals and assists than Ronaldo and won more games relative to their professional careers.

As we can see gents Messi comes on top by great distance over penaldo on every aspect of the game apart from penalties kek! Never mind the style with which he is producing those unbelievable stats rather then camping in the penalty area like poonaldo!

I refer you toIt is dishonest to use the beginning of Ronaldo's career as he played far from goal, thus skewing his stats. Messi has always played as a forward, and has over 100+ more games more than Ronaldo as a centre-forward. If you look at their (((relevant))) stats since they've both been considered the two best in the world, Ronaldo is simply better.

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That he can statpad against farmers in leliga and noone can score against osasuna quite like him? Everyone can see that. Too bad his shortcomings are far more visible and hilariously apparent even if you make up a thousand stats that don't account for even a quarter of the factors that decide a football game.

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fpbp

it's too bad they can't make a stat to quantify higuain's fault in messi's failures, I'm sure it would come in handy lmao

Hahahah watch out man if you give them any ideas they're gonna be doing that next

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What if UAE wins the 2022 world cup

>all this missifanboy cope

>t-that was clearly a low cross bro, why wasn't higuain at the end of it that fat pig

Not his fault they kept choking early.

In 30 years, after 6 UCL, 2 Euro, 1 UNL and the WC, people will still bring up that 2011 tie, where Messi emulated his Leganes form and, after his partner opened up the scoreline, he scored a MAGISTERIAL goal vs 10 men.

So you're saying CL and international finals don't matter since Ronaldo has been useless in more than half of the ones he's played in?

>T-t-the competitions where Ronaldo and Messi face each other and the same competition doesn't matter!
Gee whiz, I wonder why that is, maybe because Messi shits on Ronaldo when they actually face each other?

Omg...you are actually retarded

LMAO, you were one of those kids who said: "we want to face Madrid in the semi finals" then you got knocked out by ROMA in the quarters AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Maybe the midget could face Ronaldo if he didn't choke to FARMERS LMAO

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We all know deep down inside that Ronaldo would have buried that if it were him
>12 yards out on your favoured foot
>don’t even hit the target
Wow, some goat