Will we ever witness a footballing peak this high again?

Snejder or milito deserved it. Xavi or iniesta deserved it more than messi.

Maybe if you're old enough and Italian to have watched prime Maradona you could make an argument for him, but most boomers just speculate off a WC every 4 years and some faggot pundits comments.
Every single one of Messi and Ronaldos games are critiqued by the entire world. It then becomes clear whenever you watch the game of football and look past the stats of Messi and Ronaldo (which are comparable), that Messi is the GOAT. Sad to see him declining these days though.

It should have been him or Xavi.

I used to think that, but as the years went on it became clear Messi alone can't do much. His performance relies too heavily on his team mates - particularly the midfielders - and if the players don't click with him or don't sacrifice their entire game for him, he's nearly useless. Yeah, he was easily playing at the highest level between 2010 and 2011 but he had prime Iniesta, prime Xavi and prime Dani Alves assisting him or playmaking for him. Did he ever play at the same level for Argentina back then? No. He never did and that's the biggest reason he's called a pecho frio and is hated by so many argies.

Then as soon as Uefalona midfielders weren't all time greats anymore he could only win irrelevant crap like copa del rey or lel liga (which is a 2 horse race to begin with), and he was part of two of the greatest choking displays of all time. Two years in a row to make it worse.

tl;dr: he's great but massively overrated, a bonafide system babby

Retard

He was as good last year and this year and they only gave him 5th and now will be snubbed by a defender. "Anyone but Messi" is real.

I have no problem calling Messi the greatest system player of all time, but calling him the GOAT is ridiculous.

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>mutts talking about football

you need an entire team to make the perfect system for a baby like him, so i believe it will take some dedication

>slavs

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he looks like a vulcan/elf in 2009

yes slavs are better at football than mutts

I thought it was Iniesta

Anyone But Messi

>has the same number of world cups as USA
BRUH OH NO NO NO NO NO

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why does he look more plastic each year?

are you implying cristiano ronaldo is the greatest footballer of all time?

What? Slavs are betters at football that mutts by any measure

Excuse me sweatheart but USA just won the World Cup, something Slavs have never done

ok mr. tyrone rodriguez gronkowski

>Muh Sneijder
I bet you thought Modric deserved it last year for losing the WC final too

Do you have any proof of that?

>Scored 50 goals last season
>He's declining

>bragging about winning a competition no one else cares about

just look at the world cups placings over the years
or the number of slavs vs americans in top leagues

>Did he ever play at the same level for Argentina back then?
Yes he carried them to a Copa America final in 2011

>slavs in top leagues
>still on the same category as USA
You are just making it worse

>Messi alone cannot beat the opposing team of 11 players
>this somehow disqualifies him from being the GOAT
???

his eyes are getting wider and wider

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last britbong who won Ballon d'Or was Michael Owen

since then 3 Slavs won the award

no burger ever did

yeah stop talking shit and train more, maybe the football will 'come home' one day

How many world cups do you have?

>bongs can't even compete with slavs that have been ravaged by communism and wars for decades
embarrassing
maybe brexit will be good for them, toughen them up a little

England made it to the WC semi-final meanwhile Poland came last in a group with Senegal, Japan and Colombia

That literally never happened, go have your greasy brain checked out.

Here he only had to beat one and he still screwed up. Huh, go figure.

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>muh Pelé

What never happened? Argentina didn't make it to the 2011 Copa America final? I think you need to go get your own brain checked first

>had to beat one
That camera angle is so deceptive lol and you're a pencho frio

>it's a chicano has no clue what he's talking about
Just mow the lawn, Pedro.

>Americans

>greatest system player of all time
With this logic, any player who plays at RW in Barca should be successful, but yet Barca can't even beat Osasuna in Messi's absence

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they won against real 5-0 without Messi

System player despite having different literally-who coaches without any systems except Guardiola?

>its an obese castizo that tries to fit in
Cringe

Last season's Real lost 4-1 to Ajax. So what?

yeah lets focus on poland while ignoring the finalists

Argies worship a fat coke addled mess over Messi, that says more about argies than it does about messi

And how has he done since Guardiola and Xavi left?

Breaking records year after year?

No, I'm not saying anyone could replace Messi. Absolutely not, the system at Barca is built around his special set of skills and talents.
But when he is taken out of the Barca system, he pales in comparison, still excellent, but not GOAT-tier.

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This. Forlan deserved it

But did they win the world cup tho?

His hair looks really good in the 3rd and 5th pic. Why can't he just keep a normal haircut?

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Bad b8 m8

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How many UCLs? How many NT trophies? He has not scored an away goal in UCL KO past RO16 since 2013 . What he's done in Liga is impressive yes, part of why he is held in such high regard. But in the biggest and most difficult club competition in the world, when playing against the best of the best, he is a shadow. Likewise for Argentina.

I don't think you're taking the time to even read what you're saying. It looks like you're implying Ronaldo doesn't also have a system built around him or any other player for that instance...This is such a dumb and lazy "argument" mostly due to how incoherent it is. Ronaldinho would suck if he played for Everton

Where's the bait? Can you read?

>away goal in UCL KO past RO16 since 2013
Ameristats are something else.

Ronaldo has succeeded at 3 different teams, winning everything possible (individual and collective) with Manchester and Madrid, whilst also excelling for Portugal and helping win their first ever titles. He is the antithesis of a system player when we've seen him successfully adapt his play style across several different teams.

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And who did he play alongside in Manchester and Madrid? A bunch of farmers?

irrelevant

How long did it take for them to win a UCL before he arrived at both clubs?

I'm trying to figure out the supremacy argument granted how Poland was one of the "whitest" teams in the tournament but finished last against teams from Asia, Africa, and South America.

Caring about race in football is stupid, but that's a case study for you to let go of any supremacist views you may hold.

The same Real that were so fucking shit that they lost to CSKA Moscow at the Bernabeu and were raped by Ajax?

You don't get the ten dollaros until you trim the trees, I don't pay you to skimp out on the job like you do with our immigration line, Paco.

Just dropping in to say that watching brits downplay Messi because he never graced their shit league with his presence really is hilarious.
Yet he still consistently destroys english teams whenever he meets them in the Champions League.

>Dodges question
Well Man Utd had won the CL in 1999. He debuted in 2004...They won the CL 4 years later. He debuted for Madrid in 2009, and Madrid won the CL in 2014, 5 years later. It was hardly an immediate impact, and it was hardly solely because of him, because prior to Madrid going out and buying world cup winners and elite EPL players like Modric/Bale/...and Di Maria for record fees, Madrid kept crashing out of the last 16 against Lyon at least 3 years in a row while he was there and they never won a trophy till Bale showed up.

Definitely not. He had a great team, but Messi also had the better team for the majority of their careers. Let's not forget Manchester did not win the EPL untill he season he randomly exploded in 2006/2007, and they win their first UCL in a decade the next year, with Ronaldo being the star man.
This is actually one of the things that bother me about football: it's so often just a who's richer contest. These star studded teams are almost always going to win the league, and Messi and Ronaldo have excelled in part because of their amazing supporting cast. They are still trascendental talents, but it's just a lot more impressive when dominance of this level ocurrs in say the NFL. That's why Brady for example is far greater than either Messi or Ronaldo, for his respective sport of course.

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Did you watch the last UCL?

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>and it was hardly solely because of him
So nevermind the winning goal that lead to the victory or him being the top scorer?

he is

>they win their first UCL in a decade the next year, with Ronaldo being the star man
Don't see how United win the CL without Van Der Sar clutching it up and Terry Slipping after Ronaldo had essentially handed the trophy to Chelsea.

This is nothing about star studded teams. This is a matter of you not posting demented opinions about how Messi is only good because of "the system" It's a hilariously dumb and amateur argument. I rate both Ronaldo and Messi so I'm not a blind hater, I'll hate the day when they both won't be playing, and I despise anyone who tries to downplay their achievements. They're both really good players, once in a generation, but when it comes to style of play and versatility Messi plays more positions and does way more for Barca and Argentina than Ronaldo does for the teams he plays for. Portugal won the euros without him and Madrid essentially won 3/4 CLs with him being marked out of the game. Messi also pulls off disappearing acts but he does it in Argie colors and that's why it's more noticeable, but in terms of choking, I'd rate them both equally. They're both just so good that when they "choke" it feels like an anomaly.

>Handegg
Not even once

Mirin' that 2009 racist incel haircut.

>the winning goal
Huh? He only scored the winning goal in the Juventus final.

>Madrid kept crashing out of the last 16 for at least 3 years in a row
They lost in the RO16 in 2009/2010, since then they made the semifinal every single year Ronaldo was there.

In 2010 Forlan, Iniesta, Xavi and Sneijder deserved the award more than messi.

Sorry. But his goal against Chelsea is one of the factors that lead them to the victory. You were talking about me dodging the question but you did the same la

Messi was barcelona's best player in both games. There was a webm going around of him creating tons of chances in the return leg only

You said he scored the "winning goal" when the game ended as a 1-1 draw, and when it went to penalties he missed the penalty. He was the best player in the world in 2008, no argument there, that's not what is being discussed though.

What is being discussed here is that he was one main factors for Both team's on winning the UCL. Yes he missed the penalty but there would be no penalty shoot out if it weren't for him.

Why are you talking about Poland while slavs in general were the subject matter?

Man Utd. won a CL 5 years prior to him joining so it's not like he went to a poor team and carried them to a trophy they'd never won before. He plays in stacked teams full of legends and that's his "system" I'm not gonna take anything away from his hard-work and talent but trying to say he carried anyone to anything is hilarious when you look at the supporting cast around him. Even now at Juventus, he's surrounded by elite players, and Juventus are due a CL trophy any year now.

>Yeah he choked but it doesn't matter cause he scored earlier
That's not how it works.

What slav team has won the fucking world cup retard. Them not winning none puts them on the same level as America.

You have a clear bias if you say Portugal won the Euros without him, or saying Madrid won 3/4 without him (though he scored in half of those finals). Ronaldo scored or assisted in 67% of Portugal's KO goals in the Euros, and you saying Madrid won UCL without him is sufficient evidence for me to claim you are clearly biased. He was involved in over 50% of KO goals in each successful UCL campaign for Madrid, (2016/2017 66%, to put it into context, Messi was involved in 31% of KO goals in 2014/2015 victory, and has never been above 50% in any campaign, notably being 0% in 2005/2006).
I obviously have a bias, but I also don't say shit like
>Barcelona won La Liga without Messi
because that's obviously false. Without Messi, Madrid win every single Liga except maybe 1 or 2 flukes, I also would never say
>Messi was carried in 2016 Copa
He was clearly the best player in the tournament.
Ronaldo is almost universally regarded as more clutch in the biggest stages. Simply look at Atlético 2019 or Wolfsburg 2016. Messi has the two opposites in Roma 2018 and Liverpool 2019. Or the stats in which Ronaldo more than doubles Messi's numbers past the RO16.

This

ok so a team that never qualified for the world cup is at the same level as the 2nd place team

guys,
I think that one of the two is greater player than the other.
We've all seen them both play numerous times over the last 15 years. So we all can form an opinion of our own based on what we've actually seen combined with statistics and what not.
Both have a lot of fans and I want you to try to be as neutral as you can when evaluating these two.

Before I say who I think is the greater player, I'm going to say this, and I'm trying to be as general as I can:
The player I think of is, for the past 10 or so years, the far better player of the two. And it isn't even close. I think he's in a class of his own and the other player is a class or two below. I actually think that this player is the greatest I've ever seen.

Now most of you figured who I'm thinking about.
Why? Because advocates of that player often think the same way. On the other side, advocates of the other rarely think there's a big gap between the two, more often describing them as very close but one slightly better of the two.

And that, for me, is evidence enough who is the greater of the two.
You can say that fans of the one are cockier so they say stuff like that, or you can straight out lie and say that you thought I was talking about the other guy.
But you can't escape the truth. You've all thought of the same guy. No matter what you say. We all think the same. He's the greatest.

And I'm not naming him, because I know that it's not necessary. This debate was never really a debate and, deep down, you all know it.

It's not a bias if it's true. When it comes to Ronaldo fanboys, sadly you lot have tunnel vision in that you think he's this majestic superstar who gets things done all by himself but Messi has to rely on the system he's in being perfect. That's the false narrative you're trying to push.
>Ameristating
I clearly said I rate Ronaldo, however I don't buy into your false "system babby" narrative that you employ for Messi but ignore for Ronaldo. Portugal beat France without Ronaldo on the pitch, this is a fact.

>Ronaldo is clutch but Messi isn't
Yet another false narrative fanboys love to push. Where was Ronaldo's clutchness this year against the mighty teenagers of Ajax? Barca collapsing two years in a row in the exact same fashion has more to do with Valverde's tactics than it does to do with Messi. Barca shouldn't have even beaten Liverpool 3-0 in the first place, they were getting outplayed in their own home.

Basado

based

And you don't... everything you're spewing is bias

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>USA never qualified for a WC
They even got 3rd place. Something Pooland never did

I also like Ronaldo.

>he plays in stacked teams full of legends
No one is arguing that either one of them carried mediocre relegation teams to victory. But Messi has played in even more stacked teams, having Xavi Iniesta, Busquets, Neymar, Suárez, Puyol, now fucking Greaseman. Ronaldo has had Modric, Ramos, Bale, Benzema, Kroos, Cassilas.
Xavi > Modric, Iniesta > Kroos, Suárez > Benzema, Neymar > Bale, Puyol=Ramos, Cassilas>Ter Stephen, Greaseman > any other offensive teammate Ronaldo had at Madrid. Now at Juve Ronaldo has better defense probably, slightly inferior midfield, and inferior forwards.

Messi has never been as good for another team other than Barcelona. He has never won anything for a team other than Barcelona. Of course one can suspect him of being a system player. The only reason Messi is not winning all the individual awards this season is because he was actually objectively shit for Argentina this year, again. And this was right after his 51 goal season for Barcelona. You see this stark difference?
Yes you said you rate Ronaldo, how bold of you. Then you go on to say bullshit like Madrid won UCL without him (honestly how have you not retracted this statement). Yes Ronaldo only played for 25 mins in Euro final, but you can't say they even get there without him when he scored or assisted in 66% of goals in Euro KO, and every single game was close. Had he not played in Euro KO, okay fine yes, but that's not what happened. Messi literally didn't play past RO16 in 2005/2006 UCL, and didn't score or assist a single UCL KO goal yet he gets credit for it.
Ronaldo scored 100% of Juve's KO goals in UCL KO, including both legs against Ajax, right after engineering a historic comeback against Atlético. Losing =/= choking. A choke is Roma 2018, Liverpool 2019. Yeah Messi should not get all the blame, this does not mean he is devoid of any however. When you are in the running for GOAT, you are expected to perform in times like this.

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based

Not trying to say Messi is shit. In fact he is really good. But when it really matters Ronaldo often shows up more than Messi. If I went to a final and I had to pick 1 of the two I'm pretty sure that even those who think Messi is better than Ronaldo would choose Ronaldo.

I believe fan boys from both sides are dumb, but Ronaldo fan boys take it to another level with the stats and the ">" You're giving your awful opinions but presenting them as if they're facts. It's clear you're a casual cause you liken these two players to handegg players probably cause you don't know any better. Your ameristating is equally just as cringeworthy and exposes how stats oriented your mind is wired and thus exposing the fact you pretty much don't know what you're talking about.

>Madrid won UCL without him
If Ronaldo wasn't on the pitch against Liverpool and Atletico both times, they would have won. He was marked out of the game and did virtually nothing. Portugal beat the current world champions without him on the pitch. Your fan-boyism is annoying to say the least, cause you're downplaying a great player with stupid arguments to prop up yet another great player with the same invalid arguments. That's why you have dumb infographics like that saved. You are clueless.

Poland got third place twice you braindead animal.

>using the word fan boys
>mfw

>Portugal beat the current world champions without him on the pitch
La that was before they won the WC are you unironically retarded? By the way, it's not like it wasn't Ronaldo who put them in the finals or anything. Ronaldo is more of a clutch than Messi. In the UCL RM won Ronaldo was the top scorer. How did they win without him? Didn't you complain about Ronaldo missing the penalty against Chelsea? But when he scored against Atletico it suddenly doesn't matter?

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Peaked for almost 10 years.
Truly the unrivaled GOAT.
Even winning his shit country silverware, things some other goat candidates couldnt even do at stacked NTs.

Yes but is any of half as stupid as
>Madrid won 3/4 UCLs without him
I at least use my cherry picked stats and make an argument, not just say 100% bullshit.

Ok, not worth arguing with you anymore. If the top scorer in the competition was carried and did nothing, then I don't know what to say anymore. I guess not scoring in every single games means you did were carried by your team, and that you didn't play the largest individual role in getting to the final in the first place. This entire discussion has been you saying random shit, me trying to use my cherry picked stats in my favor, and you ignoring them and not having the decency to use cherry picked stats to back your own claim.

MIDGE

Are you trying to say the 2016 French team was any way different than the one who won the world cup? This is pure stupidity.
>Ronaldo put them in the finals
They could have gotten there WITHOUT him because they played garbage teams like Poland and Wales on the way there, and they benefited from a stupid group stage rule.

Argue about what? You already admitted you were biased, which makes you a fanboy. What's the point in "arguing" with a fanboy? It's a giant waste of time and you're posting cringe statistics that most football fans don't even care about like, "most goals scored when team was losing in the 66th minute"
> I guess not scoring in every single games means you did were carried by your team
All while you can't stop shutting up about Liverpool's comeback despite the fact Messi had scored twice against them a week prior. You're just a clueless biased fanboy without the ability to view things rationally or objectively, that's why you post meaningless statistics and make erroneous statements like, "Ronaldo never chokes like Messi"

Di Maria and Bale won the 2014 CL final for Madrid
Ramos scored a clutch last minute equalizer in the 2016 CL final
Bale clutched it up in the 2018 CL final

Ronaldo always overperforms when playing against Juventus so the 2017 CL final was all him.He's a great player and I'm not a dumb hater to take away from his talent and skill, but he's not some untouchable GOAT like you're trying to present with your skewed statistics and false narratives.

>Are you trying to say the 2016 French team was any way different than the one who won the world cup? This is pure stupidity.
Different tactics and they didn't have to deal with Mbappe and many others. Did you even watch the euro you dumbfuck?

>They could have gotten there WITHOUT him because they played garbage teams like Poland and Wales on the way there, and they benefited from a stupid group stage rule.
Nice way to take the credit from the team that won. They played by the rules and won. Poland was in a group with Germany. Croatia was actually playing well. Wales got into the semi-finals playing good football and crushing Belgium. How are those shit teams? Poland was shit in the WC but not in the euro.

About the group stage rule. How is that their fault? But lets go in your way. If Ronaldo didn't score those 2 goals and made that assist they wouldn't even go past the group stage. How the fuck he didn't benefit the NT on winning the euro? Just because he wasn't able to play in the final? Just because he didn't play in the final all what he did to get them there doesn't matter? How fucking stupid can you be?

doping peak*

Yeah I watched the Euro and that's why I precisely know that the French team didn't radically change other than being extremely unlucky not to win the final despite being the better team and Gignac hitting the post in the last minute.

If Portugal lost you'd be saying they would have won if he didn't get injured. That's how deep your mentally ill fanboyism goes. If you read anything I've actually said ITT, you'd know I'm not saying Ronaldo sucks, all I'm arguing against is the narrative that he doesn't benefit from being part of a good system of players while Messi does. Portugal beat France WITHOUT HIM, you can't get around this fact, they would even have won that stupid international friendlies cup this year without him showing up last minute.

Somehow bringing up facts to Ronaldo fanboys is offensive, all while they want to bring up their selective facts about how many goals Ronaldo has scored in the air in the 74th minute compared to Messi

Most Brits would cry that the refs are protecting him just like pep is a supposed cheat cause he has found success in England without English pashun and desire!!! Messi having 24 goals and 6 assists in 31/32 cl games against English clubs that's a poty nomination in every year since the prem started

Good way to dodge the fucking point dipshit. Would those teams be in the finals if it weren't for him? No. Was he the top scorer that got them in the finals? Yes. How didn't the French team change? Go compare their plays style from 2016 to 2018 and then tell me that lmao.

>international friendlies cup
Sweetie, all teams were using their main teams. The finals didn't look like friendlies at all. All the players tried to give their best. You dumbfucks only call it friendly because it's a new competition.

You even admitted that Portugal won with luck against France, did you notice how you are contradicting yourself? Go compare Messi and Ronaldo's NT from 2016 and tell me with a straight face that Portugal had a better team than Argentina.

Ronaldo is more of a clutch than Messi. Take pic related as an example.

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>More demented fan boy infographics
It's like you're incapable of not falling into fallacious reasoning and false narratives.

You're saying the French team's quality increased over 2 years despite the fact they were a top quality team and the reason they lost was because they were unlucky. Need I remind you that their road to the final involved beating Germany convincingly.

>Rating that stupid friendly cup
Yeah this is the height of Ronaldo fan-boyism. That, and stupid infographics out of context, of course Messi scoring against AC Milan looks awful now because Milan is now a joke team but I wouldn't expect you to deal rationally or objectively with data. You just whip them out and toss them around carelessly. And this is shown in how you always try to funnel the discussion into CL talk because that's the only arena where Messi and Ronaldo are relatively equal stats wise.

2010 Sneijder was robbed

No he wasn't

no one will ever reach his peak
he was virtually uncoverable. He could do and did anything he wanted. He also did it while eating pizza and sprite before matches, and taunting guardiola on the plane while downing more sprites. There was nothing you could do to ever stop him, all you could do was put 4 or 5 guys in a circle and eventually wait for him to pass it and hope the guy receiving the ball fucked up the attack. If messi was the player receiving the ball, it was likely a goal already even before he shot it. I feel sorry for any 18 yr old zoomer today who has no cognitive awareness of how greate Messi was a decade ago because at 8 years old you cannot appreciate his game. He's still the best player in the world, but his past is the reason a 50 goal + 20 assist season is not enough for him to get any award.

Why? Ronaldo has been shit in most finals he's played in

/debate

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Messi fanboys bootyblasted ITT
When will these people grow up from their boycrush and see how much of an overrated system babby he is?

not my point, retard. that was just an example of your shitty logic.

a team that has never won a world cup can't argue with one that already has. And you can't say you are better than Americans when you both have the same fucking perfomance in every competition. Being shit

>both have the same fucking perfomance in every competition
alright you're a retard

>no arguments
k

my argument is that not every team that fails to win the cup is that same level

I understand but you slavs are all on the same category as USA. Don't even try to deny it.

certainly not at the moment and not historically either

both are shit.

You're retarded and your arguments are among the most common and most debunked. Save your limited IQ for breathing and eating and avoid having any more opinions on things you don't understand, monkey.

totally irrelevant to the point

What? Every slav team is equally as shit as USA.

croatia got to the final, us didn't even qualify

But did they win the world cup?

It must be sad to be Iniesta and know how Messi got all of the fame for your efforts.

based. ronaldo is superior

>Stats are comparable
>One is "objektivully" better than the other

You also voted for brexit, didn't ya fat fuck?

Debunked how?

Pre 2015 Messi was winning everything (individual and team awards). See OPs pic.

After 2015, Barcelona has not accomplished finals in UCL, Messi lost 2 Copa Americas gainst fucking Chile without outstanding performances. He also lost a WC on 2014, again, without an outstanding performance by him (more was expected of him and we all agreed that at that time). He has also won his last individual award on 2015. Guess that do all these historical events have in common? Yeah, after 2015 Barcelona started to crumble piece by piece, and of course, with Argentina, the real star players were not there.

You fucking malnourished communists cant into anything.

irrelevant, they placed considerably higher and that was the question, not whether they won

Croatia 0 world cups
USA 0 world cups
They are the same. Both are shit.

are you retarded or ijust pretending?
even if yes both are shit, then one is less shit than the other and that's the question here

Shit is always shit. Doesn't matter the way you look at it. It is still shit.