/gg/ - Guitar & Bass General

Ibby Edition

How do I start learning guitar/bass?
>justinguitar.com
>studybass.com
Guitar chords and inversion
>chordbook.com/guitar-chords/
String tension calculator (D'Addario-based):
>stringtensionpro.com
Music theory:
>musictheory.net/lessons
Guitar Maintenance and other information:
>frudua.com/guitar_craftpedia_en.html
Why is my guitar buzzing?
>frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/BuzzDiagnosis/buzzlist.html
Large repository of tabs, books and other resources related to playing and theory:
>mega.nz/#F!v2oQgKhB!5nEaeUD8xxQYO8ipUoViqw

prev:

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Other urls found in this thread:

youtu.be/2Rzrvc-PInQ
youtu.be/W7KnyKjCwk4
youtu.be/wts2Mw6Nb5s
youtu.be/CMpTzxRHuio
youtu.be/EHeMiTr1cV8
vocaroo.com/i/s1zJMCE8jZDX
vocaroo.com/i/s14VFXHacnO2
clyp.it/rvalp2dj
vocaroo.com/i/s163sfqSs5Tm
vocaroo.com/i/s0cQiZ281CyN
youtu.be/oK9IVy43dqY
youtube.com/watch?v=nAwCcBMQBrc
youtube.com/watch?v=GpKuagodq8g&t=300
youtube.com/watch?v=1uYQ2KrSu4c
files.catbox.moe/e2c60u.wav
danmusikk.no/fender-squier-contemporary-stratocaster-hh-el-gitar?&c=6106
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

First for gibshit

Why is Chord analysis so enjoyable?
I've had a fair bit of wine, but it's so obvious why Mozart would use a German augmented 6th(pseudo F7 chord) to go to a I6/4 chord and then move to a 7 fully diminished in the key of A minor(G#dim7) to prolong the cadential movement to 4 measures.
What would you guys like analyzed?
If you post the sheet music I'll look at it and explain it.

bass guitars are for faggots

I'm getting married in two months. I had the idea of gifting my soon wife with a new guitar at the wedding. It's a tradition in my family to give an expensive gift to your spouse and I wanted to surprise her.

Is buying a guitar for someone else maybe a bad idea, though? Is buying an instrument too personal a decision? I have like a $5000 budget and was going to get her a "Fender Rarities Stratocaster". She has a "Fender Standard Stratocaster" she bought for $800 years ago so I think she'll appreciate the upgrade.

Any other suggestions?

Don't get her a guitar. Get her something she will use like a vacuum cleaner or a panini press.

fuck her good user

buy her a fucking vacuum cleaner, dishwasher, and some pots and pans if you're smart

Should I get a Warwick or a Fender Mustang bass?

I put these chords together yesterday

Emaj7 c form 5th position, gmaj9 10th position, amin7 e form 5th position, amaj7 with this form 5x6654 then dmaj7 f form 10th position

Sounds beachy

bass guitars are for faggots

Fodera

Based retard

Listen to jamiroquai

Thx for hurting my confidence. I'm insecure and music is my only outlet for my issues. I've done live gigs and even though I've done well I constantly think people are judging me. You hurt my feelings.

bring her to a store so she can pick the guitar fucktard

Listen to jamiroquai and git gud

Something I learned too late. You can't be self-conscious and make it as a musician. You have to go out there cock-in-hand and not give a fuck. Or at least be able to fake it well.

Don't buy these.
If she's into it, fuck yeah.

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Can she even play? I bought my gf a 1980 korean classical gor 50 bucks. Thing plays great and fits her babby hands but I have doubts she'll qctually learn it. Fun baby guitar though with a sweet and mellow sound.

Don't spend over 100 bucks on something she wont even use. Also consider that you're buying HER a gift so stop buying a present for yourself because that is absolutely what you're doing.

You should get a precision bass

>tfw migrated from guitar to bass like a little fag

>Fodera

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who the fuck are you quoting?

Not too concerned about the form, but the maj7ths throughout give it a dreamy sound.
Major 7th chords ar stuck in the middle of Major/minor tonality, neither happy nor sad, ethereal. An Emaj7 for example has an E major chord(happy) connected to a G# minor chord(sad).
If we're looking at a "key" for these chords, we're moving around a bunch.
If we start in E, then we're borrowing Gmaj7(III) from the key of E minor, then also borrowing Amin7(iv) from E minor as well. Amaj7 is diatonic in the key of E major, it's our IV chord. Dmaj7 is kind of on its own tonal island, but is dreamy and probably fits what you're looking for.

How much time do you usually spend playing guitar?
2h/day for me

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You are a faggot

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>he thinks im rent free, when in reality i speak the truth

proved my point, he looks like a fag

15 minutes, I don't like my setup and I don't have any vision of what I want to play

How many of you read sheet music instead of tabs? Is it worth it to struggle for a while to learn sheet music if I'm planning on learning some other instrument down the line?

>t. Seething incel

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When I was in college, I played 6 hours a day. My friends hated that I ALWAYS had a guitar in hand while hanging out.

learn piano first, it'll make sense later.

also never touch a bass guitar unless you are a seething faggot

Put it on a down payment and get her her own car.

why too late?

I do lad.
It's very worth it for the sake of interpretation, you can interpret music in many places on the guitar since tablature limits you to one way.(find more efficient ways to play something)
You can also see chordal voice movement/leading.
Please lad, do it. You become so much better/understanding of the guitar as a musical instrument rather than a noise box.

>imagine playing mehduhl bass

I always thought the dude was gay for some reason

when you start thinking of efficiency you become a hopeless lazy ass
just think of the beautiful sounds you identify with

I posted about a clean boost and my experience with the EP Booster a week or two ago and now Sam or somebody jumped on the EP Booster train and is posting about it in every thread. What causes behavior like this?

That looks like the perfect guitar.

>he can't chord solo

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As a general rule, Sax solos (and other instruments for that matter) are always better than Guitar solos.

Do you like solos?

wtf does that even mean, post a sound

That sounds fun and I want to do it. Where would I start?

why do you call it german aug6 like a faggot

It's more a function of knowing a melody you need and then finding the notes you need to voice a chord correctly underneath(or over-top) of a melody.

We almost always need a 1 and 3 of a chord unless it's diminishd in which case we need at least a 1 and a 5.
It's important and useful stuff.

>he only listens to dad-core prog

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Because of the way Mozart wrote it and where it resolves to(I6/4)
It's not my fault m8.

lmao thats like basic intuitive stuff user

To clarify, Mozart wrote an implied F major triad with D# instead of calling it Eb.
It makes a difference in our analysis, even the way we enharmonically spell things is intentional.

it's a 7 chord that turns into dimnished before going to its 4th right? dude that's common even beatles ballads have it youtu.be/2Rzrvc-PInQ

It's basic, but can you apply it quickly and efficiently?
That's where music reading comes in handy. Sheet music is truly basic and intuitive stuff, for guitarists, chord building is often a bridge too far despite being ingrained in piano players at a young age.

Listen to more jazz

sure, im very fluent with the guitar

That's not what happened no.
A German Aug 6th chord(with respect to the Italian and French Aug 6th's) are basically dominant 7th chords, but they can function a little differently to modulate us or take us to a 2nd inversion I/i chord.

>German Aug 6th chord(with respect to the Italian and French Aug 6th's)
roflmao

*despite having the same intervals as a dominant 7 they don't work within a chord progression the same way!

What the fuck are you niggers talking about

I don't like solos at all. I only like rhythm guitar and playing arpeggios on their own.

>actual music talk goin on
>wtf are you talkin about guys i cant keep up let's go back to the mockery

You might like this video:

youtu.be/W7KnyKjCwk4

give an example

I don't understand anything.

The guitar is irrelevant in this day and age and there hasn't been anything innovative done with it since Loveless which is the ultimate guitar album.

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take online lessons with me for affordable prices

Measure 20 of Rondo Alla Turca uses a German Augmented 6th chord(the aug 6 is the D#), which is effectively an F7 chord, to take us to A minor in second inversion.
Then we go to G# fully dim 7 which functions well in A minor as well.

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>the ultimate guitar album
No

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>hey guys, check out my beginner chord progression

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um sweetie, try again.

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Autism

>he can't afford a Gibson, the only guitar which is good enough, because he spent all of his money on issues of Frock Magazine

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what is the second inversion of a minor

im listening to funk grooves

youtu.be/wts2Mw6Nb5s

boi dis is gud
youtu.be/CMpTzxRHuio

woooohooooo
youtu.be/EHeMiTr1cV8

its so damn hot and dry in belo horizonte today

What’s the deal with Jazzmasters?

They're gay, but comfortable and the trem is good.

They don't sound too good through orange crush amps

theyre comfortable for you because youre gay

What’s the deal with bass guitars?

Only faggots play bass

do certain guitars just visually repulse you so much that you wouldnt play them, or are you completely pure?
For me its prs

im completely pure

I hate sunburst les pauls

I agree about PRS but other than that my taste is pretty open.
PRS seems like a compensating guitar brand. Most PRS players I've seen are sloppy and unoriginal

I like the way a beautiful Spruce/Cedar top/Rosewood Back/Sides Classical guitar looks.
Not a fan of many other guitars look like even if the wood is beatifully grained.

Danelectro condor and ibanez

Would never play
>any non solid finish
>especially not flame maple
>especially not sunburst
>especially not black on white pickguard
>any prs
>any les paul

do you like my version
vocaroo.com/i/s1zJMCE8jZDX

Condors look like a mirror of your jealousy

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Buy her a Telecaster pussy.
An AVRI 52.
That or the AVRI 62 if you like hotter pickups and rosewood boards.

>Warwick

get a buzzard headstock bass dont dare to buy that awful headstock with a W on it

>open vocaroo
>hear buzzy out of tune shit guitar
>immediately close vocaroo

Can mandolinfags join the guitar party too?

>out of tune
>beginning is just one string
fuck you

It's not intonated correctly

how dare you reply to me

fuck off

i wonder how many lb this nato/mora guitar weights.

Dumb mehduhl shit

>Gibson, the only guitar which is good enough
If I wanted a guitar without a headstock I'd just buy a Steinberger.

They have a really nice crunch when paired with overdrive as well as fuzz

it's lighter than the tele

I like playing bass. It makes me see music differently. After i been playing bass for some days and then grab a guitar, I play stuff that i dont usually play when i'm playing the guitar exclusively because i'm too focused on doing them bends, licks and riffs.

does anybody like Motown music

Did I choose wisely pol?

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>seething

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what song is this melody from
vocaroo.com/i/s14VFXHacnO2

Not only do you make up your own chords but you have never tuned your guitar.

I like the PRS form factor but despise their tacky finishes. Somehow the cheapest models look better than the more expensive ones by virtue of having solid colors.

I wouldn't touch most of the "heavy" guitars, with maybe some V-style guitars as an exception

hate with a passion the guitars that can't decide if they're tele or les paul style (knaggs for example)

weird as fuck fusion/prog thrash like tosin abasi guitars that look beyond awful

and I'm apathetic towards 90% of stratocasters/superstrats. Only certain color combos/finishes can change my mind

>rosewood neck and fretboard
>natural flamed maple top

What color pickguard should I use?

sambo negro

I'm old

I can't spell, nor am I funny: The post

>idiot

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R8 my new guitar, /gg/

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kek

If that's your thing/10

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Rate my song

Sounds great

clyp.it/rvalp2dj

what kind of genre is that?
vocaroo.com/i/s163sfqSs5Tm

Actually sounds surprisingly good. The intonation is shit, but a cheap tuneomatic copy will fix that.
The neck is also dead straight, a rarity on these.

Cool

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Sure

Somebody got cucked by a bass player

lole yea ur dad

cheers

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Plebs don't

Cute milf on the left

>balls this blue
one yike

ur mom

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mall ninjas get hype

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>how did I get tetanus

puked

its never too late

>Beer!!!

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I'm drinking right now waiting for this fucking hurricane to end my ass.
*spoiler it won't

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i like beer

Got one of those shelters they build into the ground?

what is a hurricane?

No, I live in 135mph rated house 25 miles inland.

Where are you?

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25 miles west of Daytona

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It’s a mixed drink invented in New Orleans.
user apparently has quite a tolerance built up.

I think you know her better than any of us, if she loves playing guitar then she'll probably like it unless she has some kind of attachment to the previous one.

gay in 90% of rock and 100% of metal band but absolutely based if you play literally any other genre

Average of 30-45 minutes a day

>look mom!
>Just like HIS guitar!
>I’ll surely play like Zakk Wylde now!

That is his guitar

oh

Where did you get a case like that? I want a bed made of that material.

youtu.be/EHeMiTr1cV8
youtu.be/CMpTzxRHuio

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i dont get it. do you want to sleep in a bed? or are you a guitar?

It's a stock fender hard shell case.

comfy case, mine came with it.

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I hate Orange amps

hate is not good

Why does everyone in this thread hate Orange amps so much??

Is learning classical guitar different than learning acoustic? I want to try to find a place to get lessons and i'm wondering if it makes a difference.

They also come in black

Me too

Extremely, if you want to learn classical guitar you need a teacher

Because no one here can stand anything that becomes remotely popular. Bunch of fucking hipsters.

Yes.
You might as well be learning a completely different instrument since the way you think about and approach the guitar is totally different.

Because as people start to like them, the used prices go up, and then they’ll NEVER be able to afford one.

>thinline

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Could you elaborate on that?

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Classical guitars are acoustic guitars user

But the techniques and repertoire are vastly different.

Jazzmaster guy here (formerly Flying V guy) I found someone to give me private lessons no thanks to you goofs. I start Wednesday.

How do i play a groovin bass guitar

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Lol you can play fingerstyle on a steel string. Classical guitars are just way easier to play in general because of how wide the fretboard is and how light the plastic strings are. Classical guitars are basically just easy mode acoustic guitars. Plus once you stop using a pick you don't go back.

Learn finger muting, practice with a metronome.

Look up jamiroquai tabs.

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Classical Guitar music is thought of as you would think of Piano music with different voice movements, point/counter-point, etc.
It's very different than what's otherwise played on guitar.

Also I need to get a bag to carry my guitar around in before I go to my lessons. Time to go to Guitar Center and get something I guess.

Bags are $30-50. Just go and grab one.
Just bought a gig bag for my guitar yesterday.

Yeah I'm not going to put any serious thought into the bag, it's not like I'll be using the bag to ship the guitar or fly with it.

This process will require far less time than the Flying V vs Jazzmaster vs BC Rich Warlock that took up several of these threads

My nigga want to play flamenco and that shit all regular majors and minors plus a loco min7 and regular 7th every once in a while fucking loco man

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vocaroo.com/i/s0cQiZ281CyN

It is the lightest Tele I own. And as of right now probably my favorite when it comes down to tone. The neck needs a fret level though. I need to buy some tools. But for $200 I can't complain. The old CV line is fucking top tier.

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Sambo/107

What is the best material for a tune’ omatic bridge?

Paper

why 107

Why does he sing like this?

brass with steel saddles

like what

White or cream

this is 3/4 scale right?

Not that I'm aware of.

Full size

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anyone got some beginner songs for slide guitar, just bought a slide

How gay would this be

I don't even have a kraken

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why is my guitar buzzing when shoegazing? i mean that was really gay.

dark rum is gross

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So's that guitar

Alright guys i'm gonna stop being a lazy depressed faggot and am gonna practice. I miss my calluses.

please answer me

I'm a pleb but you can play some Beach House and old country songs. Also just noodle around with it.

just look at those digits

what in absolute fuck

Does fender have any differences in their humbucker?
Every model that comes with them just says designed, but their single coils are always vary

Ha...4 were me

Every model just says shawbucker*

Not really. It's either a Shawbucker, "widerange", or the same humbucker. I had 2 guitars, 18 years apart that had the same pickups in them.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

>tfw too shit to even remotely justify how much I blew on this

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I do both, but I find myself using tabs less and less. Sheet music is way easier for learning jazz tunes. And it's also easier to communicate with drummers once you get better at understanding written rhythms: you can talk about where a particular beat is supposed to happen in a particular bar or what kind of rhythmic pattern to use.

How much did you blow lad?

My wife got me a guitar for our wedding and surprised me in the middle of our reception with it. Had no idea it was coming. I had been browsing guitars online a few months earlier while we were hanging out in our bedroom and pointed out one that really caught my eye but was well out of my budget; apparently she remembered and set aside some extra cash so she could buy it for me. It really just added something extra special to an already fantastic day, and as the reception wound down our DJ let me plug it into his PA and I played a few jazz chord melodies with my family gathered around.

>Pic-related.

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four thousand dudes

*snap*

~2k

You better play it everyday and write songs for your wife or you won't do it or her justice

Statesboro Blues.

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I do. It's such an amazing guitar. The blue burst finish it came in is no longer in production, so it feels pretty special in that regard. It also plays and sounds fantastic, so much so that actually sitting down to play it makes me want to work on transcribing or incorporating new harmonic ideas into my improvisation. It feels like a proper musician's instrument so I want to use it to showcase the best of my musicianship.

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Damn that's a sexy guitar. My fiancee left me because her dad didn't like me so I had to buy my own un-wedding guitar. I think that makes us like cousins or something.

How long until my fingers stop hurting after a few minutes of playing bros? I want to spend more time playing and learning, but I'm scared my fingers will cut or blister which would slow down callus formation

just play

Why can't they make a Fender usa version of this?
>neck binding
>barrel saddles
>block inlays

Well, cheers to avoiding a potential family trainwreck, I guess. I would have done the same thing in your position. What did you end up buying?

WHy when that exists?

he wants it to be made by a Mexican that made it over the border

Ahhh

s series?

That's a pretty boring lp clone

Does look nice though with the matte black.

does anything other than pups, strings, or scale length actually affect the way an electric sounds? i can understand wood affecting the sound on a semihollow/hollowbody but other than that it's just for looks/comfort, isn't it?
and if that is the case, how are LP-styled bodies in terms of comfort? I like how they look.

They're kind of uncomfortable. The cut is pretty narrow, but you should get used to it.

What would you guys recommend if I just wanted a small amp to play with in my bedroom?

Fender champ 100

Does a metal string suspended between two metal blocks sound different when suspended between two wooden blocks, given the same tension and plucking strength?

Yes, wood affects tone. But not a whole lot, and there is no consistent "mahogany tone" or anything like that since wood varies so greatly even within one tree and then drying methods change it even more, and construction method has an even bigger effect.

Yamaha THR5

but does a real flame maple cap ala gibson sound better than a plain maple cap with a flame veneer ala dean?

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this is exactly what I was looking for. thank you

>guys does wood grain direction affect tone?

for the price of that piece of junk you could get a used low wattage tube head

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based thinline bro

Is buying a new guitar even worth it?
I got a full stock squier strat (XD POORFAG) as a gift two years ago and I absolutely love it
Tuning can be a pain in the ass, but that can be fixed with new tuning pegs, right?

you need a tone bridge, tone frets, a tone nut, and tone tuners for maximum tone.

don't forget the tone cable.

you need a tone bridge and a tone nut as well

at this point you should consider a whole tone-neck

Tuning pegs help a tiny bit but a better nut will help far more. Also if you have string trees you should try and change them. Tbh after having a luthier install the nut and trees in you'll be down like 200 bucks.

Does jazz always change modes?? For example, it a song was a c major 1 4 5, would the bass line change modes for each chord??

Hold on lad, weren't you holding out for a TOTALLY REAL FLAME MAPLE CAP in a color you liked? I guess the TOTALLY REAL FLAME MAPLE CAP wasn't worth the wait.

I believe this makes 3 suckers in /gg/ who bought e-iis aka MIJ LTDs due to ESP shilling. You guys realize that it was ESP being shilled, not E-II, riiiiight?

2 eclipses and one M-II, but M-II fag bought his for cheap so he is forgiven.

Shoulda just got an american strat, same quality, lower price, and you won't look like a james hetfield cosplayer on stage.

never

/gg/ is bad at guitar and bad with money indeed

>no, i need the ESP thin-u neck to play an f chord
>t. beginner too cool for a regular stratocaster
lol whats wrong with strats really? clapton, hendrix, srv, none of them needed a meme nip guitar to sound good.

Muh pentatonic minor players

So it's just bVI7 leading to V7
Just say that shit next time, basic concept all over all kinds of music, why do classical fags have to get all retarded with it

if you were given the pentatonic minor scale you wouldn't even get one good riff out of it

Why would you pay that much to do it? Trees are held in by screws and the nut can just be glued in place and filed, right?

>implying that's worse than muh harmonic minor players aka metal bands

I miss this lil nigga like you wouldn't believe

how much do you charge?

You're right. My luthier though is a price gouging son of a bitch(70 for a setup, 70 for a new nut, 70 for a bridge fret re-fret 350, fret dress 140). Yeah, I was assuming because he seemed to still only have one un-upgraded guitar that he didn't know how to do it

my favorite guitarist. seemed like a really humble guy too.

I need to starting doing this so I can make mad bank off of trust-fund babbies who don't know how to restring their Les Paul

Oh yeah the son of a bitch charges 40 for a floyd rose string change with cleaning.

Lol floyd rose tweetle wheeeew wurrrrwurrrr weeeedle

Fucking dumb

t. too dumb to tune one

>durr grug made flat E normal, now other E flat, grug confused!

All floating bridges are like this, including fenders

Floyd roses get a bad rap because the cheap ones stop holding tune after a year

yes, i got a prestige from reverb for like 430. fantastic guitar.

Is that a es 335? Looks very nice dude.

I fucking hate prs. Half the people who play prs just do it to be different.

No i mean tremolo bridges are fucking pointless because going weedle deedle screeeeeeee isn't fucking musical it's just dumb noise that belongs in the dead genres of the 80s

I know that you did dive bombs for a week and hate trems now, that's okay
Just let the real musicians have fun

Dude you're retarded, trems let you get expressive in a way that's completely impossible without them

Are prs even more retarded than Gibson when it comes to their snake oil memes?
I think they’re fine when used tastefully
youtu.be/oK9IVy43dqY
Like in this video

Thinking about getting a 12 string guitar, what brands should I be looking out for and avoiding? I'l most likely be buying used and it'll be acoustic.

Or maybe they just think santana is cool

>you can only use a vibrato arm for wanking over pinch harmonics

man you're one creative motherfucker

>tfw superstrats can only be played tastefully if they're kaka brown, and yours is virgin pussy blood red

brb dive bombing pinch harmonics to cope

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I think I'll but Azunyan's guitar since I have tiny fucking hands. That or go brass

even tiny handed japanese girls prefer gibson

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youtube.com/watch?v=nAwCcBMQBrc

youtube.com/watch?v=GpKuagodq8g&t=300

This fucking guy

youtube.com/watch?v=1uYQ2KrSu4c

we can come to terms

R8
Just got it today

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lol

shitty pick

I like that pick because my thumb gets sweaty and i like the texture on it :(

is the brown color really from mushing kaka into the guitar body? like poopy kaka?

Just want to play black metal riffs all day

Man fuck my cat

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it looks scared

plop a fartlog into a box next to the cat. use kaka to train it.

She was scared of my nebulizer
I found it funny how she runs from it so I kept grabbing her to see her jump around

Quite funny to imagine you divorced sitting in an empty apartment some years from now with only that Chinese knockoff to show from you marriage

So, you did it to yourself.
Don't blame the cat.

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> that incongruous ESP logo fret inlay on the 12th fret

yuck. why do esp do this?

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I'm wondering if any of you lads have any experience with the fender squier contemporary series, and if you can tell me your opinions of it?

Can you please make that picture public on Facebook so I can find your profile

I have they worth about 300 bucks. Lowest of the low from japan. Weird spyder tremolos and other khaler esque weird shit.

So i shouldn't buy it? I have a 20th anniversary strat, affinity series that i got for free.

Hell why you want another strat then and a worse one

what the fuck is wrong with my guitar? this only happens on the first 2 strings
files.catbox.moe/e2c60u.wav

how much? which tremolo what color is it? is the neck painted black or natural?

I'm new to guitars, so i don't really know what to look for. My guitar just looks really plain. But fuck it then.

Rate my bassline
044444404444440111111076

danmusikk.no/fender-squier-contemporary-stratocaster-hh-el-gitar?&c=6106

>danmusikk.no/fender-squier-contemporary-stratocaster-hh-el-gitar?&c=6106
oof they are bringing back the contemporary name. stay away from this new squier chinese trash. I thought you were talking 90's made in japan. Fender are shit now. Just selling 100's of models at every pricepoint trying to get everyone to buy their meme shit.

Oh, alright.

Please rate, will you
vocaroo.com/i/s0cQiZ281CyN

Heeheehee

No.

I just use my guitar to play Rocksmith, is it a good one?

Epiphone dot studio

Pic isn't mine but same guitar, I turned the hard case that came with it into a gun case for my ar-10

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what are your favourite chord changes, jeejee?
for me? its II-V. absolute riff machine of a change in jazz, blues or rock

all the ones I have played in the store have been beyond shit, but my m8 has a good one. those things need a serious setup