Why is it jazz was able to “legitimize” itself as high art, while rock and metal haven’t really?
Nowadays, despite being a form of pop music, Jazz is often on the same level as classical. However, despite rock and metal becoming more complex over time (especially with genres such as prog, math, even drone to an extant) I don’t see people argue that rock or metal is on the same level as jazz or classical. Why is this, what separates high art from wankery?
Why is it jazz was able to “legitimize” itself as high art, while rock and metal haven’t really?
Alexander Martinez
Michael Garcia
usually the transition of a genre into high art comes from the musicians in the genre itself. there's a reason that jazz and classical are usually music for musicians rather than to be listened to casually/without much barrier to entry. it's because the people who perform jazz and classical have rigorously trained to become talented and breathe their craft -- as opposed to rock musicians who just see music a hobby/job that you can retire from. most jazz/classical musicians die performing live while rock artists move on.
that being said rock can be exceptional, transgresive, avant-garde, etc., TVU is a pretty good example of that and they're one of my favorites.
Jace Anderson
>what separates high art from wankery
the potency of the farts you're huffing
Angel Adams
You're asking why hasn't a children's breakfast cereal with a cartoon character on the box hasn't legitimized itself as fine cuisine compared to a fancy restaurant.
The pop and rock industry got rich by selling musical garbage to children and manchildren. Kids and working class plebians by and large dont listen to jazz because it doesnt come in an easy-open plastic package.
Chase Bell
Retard
Ian Jones
White people stole it and threw it into colleges where other white people can go and study it
Gavin Harris
Because jazz and classical are good while rock and metal are borderline aspergers
Wyatt Garcia
When a rock or pop song is good enough to be considered art, people begin arguing it was never a rock or pop song to begin with.
Sebastian Powell
high art is pissing in a jar with a cross in it, art is shit and anyone that cares about is a faggot
Gavin Adams
go lick boots somewhere else
Andrew Sanchez
/thread
Benjamin Ross
Because for the most part the jazz that is studied and analysed is form-wise, harmonically and texturally far more complex than most rock and metal music. However I'd argue that especially metal music began to get very interesting towards the end of the 20th century, mainly when it comes to timbre, but people don't usually analyse or talk about that parameter that often.
Julian Cooper
>Jazz is often on the same level as classical
No.
Brody Gutierrez
>people don't usually analyse or talk about that parameter that often.
You are mistaken. Timbre has been analysed to death since Debussy.
Easton Collins
I meant in general. Most music listeners don't even know what a timbre is and on Yea Forums people definitely don't talk about it as much as with other parameters.
Brandon Watson
White people ignore it
Black people say they are oppressed
White people engage with it
Black people say white people stole it
Conclusion: black people are whiny self-designated victims
Cameron Scott
I think part of it is the fact that within the jazz world, there is much less of a focus on vocals and lyrics in comparison to rock and its associated subgenres. "Vocal jazz" is a style of its own, whereas the vast majority of rock music contains vocals and lyrics - it's essentially a convention of the genre. For this reason, rock songs seem to convey emotion primarily through words as opposed to music. Jazz compositions usually require more in-depth analysis than rock songs as a result. Any English speaker with half a brain can make sense of a rock song's lyrics, however the amount of people who "speak the language" of music is far fewer than those who speak English.
Justin Nelson
Yes, because it's even higher when were talking about improvisation
Ayden Baker
I disagree with rock conveying emotions mainly through words.
Successful rock stars of the 60s 70s 80s were selling millions of albums around the world to people who didn't speak English.
Nathaniel Wilson
jazz is mostly really niche music for jazz nerds nowadays with a big focus on technical skill, "substance over style", etc.
meanwhile most rock and metal is still essentially flashy pop music and there isn't really a set canon for the stuff that is more technical - it also doesn't help that most metal is d4rK 4nD 3dGy
Blake Perry
Rock has legitimised itself through the means of prog rock and beatles nostalgia. It hasn't reached the heights of jazz, though, but jazz had to change a lot before it got recognised as part of high culture and not just nigger music. is in many ways correct.
Brandon Price
I know it's a lot to ask that Yea Forums know anything about music history outside of the mainstream but does anyone know how jazz actually got around to being taken seriously by classical musicians?
I'm aware of isolated incidents like the Stravinsky-Parker story and composers like Gershwin, Copland, Ravel, etc. being interested in jazz from quite early on but you also had people like Adorno writing in and around that time too.
By the mid 60s you've got some of the most widely celebrated works in jazz being made and already recorded and Bernstein does a Young people's concert with Eric Dolphy, so it's got to be before that right?
youtube.com
Grayson Murphy
>jazz
>high art
Juan Howard
>White people stole it
Jazz might be the only genre were it was blacks stealing white people shit.
Michael Hill
>but does anyone know how jazz actually got around to being taken seriously by classical musicians
it isn't being taken seriously by anyone who is not jewish, lmao
Blake Cruz
Neat, this is going into my arsenal of clever comebacks! Thanks user!
Benjamin Robinson
>Jazz is often on the same level as classical
Absolutely not true by the way
Easton Roberts
Well for one, metal is much much younger than jazz
Traditional heavy metal to metal would be what vaudevile and ragtime was to jazz.
Prog rock was mainly rock incorporating elements of classical, jazz or folk, it wasn't a new style harmonically or rhythmically.
If society doesn't collapse then maybe technical death metal will be accepted in the academic bubble within 20 or so years.
I believe they already teach metal basics at some music universities.
There is also a problem with tech death currently, the most interesting tech death albums harmony-wise were made in the mid-late 90s and early 2000s, what we have now are bands coppying necrophagist, fallujah and gorguts.
There have been a few recent original tech death bands though like exlimitir and archspire, so it may still turn out well for the genre.
Brody Cooper
>people don't usually analyse or talk about that parameter that often.
>what is the entire history of western art music since ca. Varese and the entire field of sonology
Carson Wilson
>metal music began to get very interesting towards the end of the 20th century, mainly when it comes to timbre
sampler requested
Jack Davis
If you don't consider rock 'high art' then you have not listened to
The Shitty Beatles
Easton Wright
When a hack author wants to make their character look smart, they have them play chess, read Joyce, and listen to classical or jazz.
Kayden Jenkins
Luis Jackson
So what? A common stereotype does not imply truth.
Parker Ramirez
I'll take your lack of argument to my post that I have won the thread
Alexander Price
This is a thread about common stereotypes, user.
Caleb Bennett
What’s the difference?
Parker Howard
something something black people bad I got into epic european culture because /pol/ told me to praise kek
Jordan Flores
Around the 1920s thanks to the French. Milhaud in particular was one of the main reasons as to why it took off. 1920s France was fascinated with exoticism, which is why Josephine Baker became such a star. French composers began using elements of jazz, which was in its adolescence, so to speak, and arguably becoming the first kind of pop music through musical theatre, beginning with Jerome Kern (who began incorporating 4/4 dance rhythms and typical jazz styles in his music, being a revolutionary in musical theatre) and culminating with Irving Berlin in the pop side of things and with George Gershwin on the musical side of things.
What's going on is that the US, at this point, has already had the infancy of its classical music with the Indianist movement and the 2nd New England School, which are distinctly Germanic in origin. The composers of the Great American Songbook, however, operate in smaller forms at first (songs), and create a jazz-based school, mostly divorced from the Germanic storyline. This captures the attention of the French when the music that is played in jazz clubs (during prohibition, a lot of wealthy Americans and intelligentsia went to France - see: Hemingway) now displays a genuinely higher level of composition. Thus begins a highly incestuous musical development of French and American classical music. A new generation of American composers go to study in France (starting with Cole Porter studying with d'Indy and culminating in Aaron Copland's studies with Nadia Boulanger), and a lot of jazz artists begin taking inspiration from French impressionism. The two sides will begin a new development around then, using similar means with different results. Modal jazz, whole tone scales and increasingly complex harmony and rhythm in post-bop, as well as in the Americanist school mirror the means of Dutilleux, Messiaen and to a lesser extent Boulez.
The two then split, but for a good half a century the two were very closely intertwined.
James Campbell
So do you reckon seeing that cross pollination as a positive thing was a mainstream opinion around this time?
Was Adorno's essay in the 30s against or with the grain in classical circles?