My friend says jazz and classical are on the same tier. Is he right or wrong and why?

jazz is better

Not comparable.
They have different languages and thoughts.

You're comparing apples and oranges. People get confused because Jazz was popular early on. But it was always deeply embedded in the theory side of things too. It went on a different tangent and didn't become the thing that pop music became.

While we're on the topic of music that pushes the boundaries of theory and art:
Metal is arguably breaking that barrier too given it's increasing complexity in some cases and the fact you need to write shit down to make it. I hope EDM and hip hop do this more too as musician incomes switch from selling records to selling live audience tickets. EDM might not do that because you can't really write what it does down on paper. Hip hip is not like that and is missing an opportunity with jazz sound. To me, Jazz rock and hip hop/funk are all derivative musical theories that developed from simplistic blues and earlier classical, folk and gospel music. The best music today does it's theory best I think. Gone are the days of punk on it's own. It just doesn't make new interesting sounds anymore. It needs to flirt with theory a bit, then let it go after swimming in it for some time.

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Jazz plays with the cats that classical music ignores. It hits mode ideas that classical can only dabble on without full indulging with the sound for sake of finding the most satisfying sound.
You never really see classical do what bebop and cool jazz did for example. Classical barely even keeps a consistent obvious rhythm.

>not comparable
>because they have different languages and thoughts
So we can't draw ANY comparisons between Beethoven's 14th String quartet and, say, my clanging and banging on pots and pans in a crack-cocaine-fuelled stupor?
The comparison between different languages and thoughts are EXACTLY what we are discussing here. We are comparing musical philosophies, what they stand for, their intentions, and what they actually accomplish.

I actually listen to a lot more classical than jazz. I'm not interested in having a bad faith discussion about the emotional depths of jazz music, the niches it fills that classical music doesn't and the incredible dedication it takes to play well though.

>So we can't draw ANY comparisons between Beethoven's 14th String quartet and, say, my clanging and banging on pots and pans in a crack-cocaine-fuelled stupor?
Considering drugs weren't illegal back then I wouldn't call that a fair question (I bet he was on the pony himself or something like it as many people did that back then without realising the consequences. That's part of why sugar is so widely used today even though it's so unhealthy for us and impacts our thought).

Regardless, I think comparing two things without an objective marker is impossible. You're simply comparing the two fruit and assuming a human collective "subjective" taste on the matter. That's stupid. I like both of the fruit. They should even go in the same pie now and then.
Yet we continue to distinguish the two. We almost label them with the brands "classical" and "jazz" simply because we like doing that and we think that is the best way to get a satisfying "flavour" of sound.

Now I'm hungry.

Jazz is much better. America has always been much better than Europe at making music.

jazz sounds like car horns, classical sounds like fuckin bumblebees
somehow i knew your ass was gonna say metal

This is /post-mu/. Please leave your shitposting in /bleep/.

Per OP's question, the "objective marker" in this case (in other words, the objective of this discussion) is the "tier" on which the music is on.
We will perhaps need OP to further clarify what they mean by "tier."

>emotional depths of jazz music, the niches it fills that classical music doesn't
Classical has more soul than jazz, get that nigger cock out of your mouth

Without Europeans making music, jazz wouldn't exist moron

I said more than that though. I think hip hop is almost attachable to jazz as well as metal. Hip hop has that colour or tone, perhaps part of the ethos too. Metal has the theoretical nexus with it, you can thank alternative metal for pushing that (I think even bands like the Melvins still recommend jazz artists, because the shit they did just works so well with it).

The only exclusive musical genres theoretically is EDM and the Avant-gardebecause they detail the textural side of sound on another level to other forms of pop, or jazz and classical. EDM tries to limit it's scope to make it accessible and interesting to more people. Avant-garde pushes the boundaries of the idea of music to the point where it's arguably not what most people call "music" at all.

Honestly, music is like programming languages, they have their applications and uses for certain scenarios. You, as the musician or listener, choose that "genre" or "language" for whatever purpose you want it to fulfill. 9 times out of ten it's for some form of satisfaction with sound. It's like sex or a drug almost.

hip hop samples alot of jazz
extreme metal is similar to hip hop because theres no melody in the vocals usually
i dont think edm is exclusive to itself because its basically pop music with synthesizers and dancy beats
and i agree with you avant garde is bullshit and it sucks

>i dont think edm is exclusive to itself because its basically pop music with synthesizers and dancy beats
EDM is more experimentation with productive techniques. Many EDM songs have simply "musical" structures, but deeply detailed productive techniques that make it interesting. It's a more micro level of music to me. Instead of doing a chord change, you just screw with the intensity or timbre in order to transition one part of the music to the next. While that isn't exclusive the EDM, it is by far EDM's most distinctive features. It emphasises changes in the quality of the sound at a more particular level than other genres of sound.

yeah its textural but in terms of composition it aint much different from pop music

>Without Europeans making music, jazz wouldn't exist moron
So we did it better. Who cares?

>in terms of composition it aint much different from pop music
No, I'm saying the focus of composition shifted to the textual and particular tonal aspects of sound. It's not held back by instrumentation, hence you cannot coordinate the sound like you do with older genres. Yet there is a goal - make it engaging to people.

anything it wants to be

The three god-tier genres are Classical, Jazz, and IDM.

try listening to steely dan and get back to me on this. I'd love to talk about it with you more

but What IS Jazz?

>IDM
Or electronic music generally perhaps.
It's unfair to ignore the importance of hip hop and rock/metal to electronic music. Hop and rock tend to overlap with electronic music with regards to compositional techniques. Makes sense as they all involve electronics. Jazz and classical music is a bit more restricted in the type of instrumentation useful for it. When you add electronics, the sound tends to become what we call electronic music naturally by the sound of electronic instruments. Jazz gets away with it more because it's musical components or parts are broken into rhythm, bass and "lead" parts. As long as it has those parts in a particular fashion - it's jazz. Classical doesn't have that when you add more and more electronic parts, it seems to require a sound made with the natural vibration of non electronic components.

ao your answer is no, you dont have any examples to provide

I'm talking about the immense complexity and deep feelings.

It's a sound we attribute almost to a type of ethos or "culture of sound".

So you're a troll?
Rock and hip hop do that fine. In fact trip hop seems to do it best for me and it combines both and jazz and electronic sound. Sometimes you need a hook and perhaps even a context to things as well.

Cool jazz has a few remarkable compositions that I don't think the classical niche of sound could explore in the same way. It has that bustle of modern life.

>Hip Hop and Rock, both being 4/4-fests with simplistic beats and limited atmosphere are anywhere close to as technically complex and intricate as something like Music is Rotted One Note or Come On Primates Show Your Teeth.

bro in hip hop you have a person literally saying "im sad" through rhymes, not the instruments. theres no emotion classical can show that hip hop cant

DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY DOODLEY

>Deep feelings need to be a full orchestra, a complex composition or a weird production technique
Well that's like your opinion man.

Tantric 4/4 rhythms and musical patterns can install emotions that complex patterns of music or music without patterns cannot.
It almost becomes "ambient" in a way.

having a nigga actually communicate what he means is actually better than some fairy ass white boy doing gay beeps on the piano an calling it deep