What is the best (video) recording of Stravinsky's russian ballets? What about Tchaikovsky's? Also wondering what are some good (again, video) recordings of Strauss' Salome and Elektra, and Berg's Wozzek and Lulu, thanks
Kayden Rogers
what are some essential Gregorian chants
Hunter Smith
Why gregorian? It's pretty primitive, I personally prefer ars antigua and ars nova
Daniel Miller
unironically look up recordings by the Benedictine Monks Of Santo Domingo De Silos. They also have some wonderful mozarabic masses. "Canto Gregoriano" (1973) is probably their best recording
I'm not attacking him I just have curiosity, can you stop misunderstanding everything as a personal attack for a second, please? Yeah Lenoin and Perotin are great
Jacob Nguyen
>I'm not attacking him it'd be less autistic if you were, to be quite honest witcha
i'm the guy he was asking, and I'm not that upset with it. it'd be like asking a fan of breakcore or emo pop what they find so great about it
Jace Lewis
beethoven: i hate mondays!
Parker Miller
I know, but it's the tone of it. It's one thing to ask "why do you like about breakcore" and another to ask "why do you like such primitive music". It goes from honest curiosity to ambiguous derision real quick
Elijah Gomez
Crybaby
Carson Jenkins
*proto-romantic >The romantic titan That would be Berlioz
Austin Allen
>hadn't to struggle much to obtain fame >no serious problems to surpass, just some generic "muh my lover won't be with me" >pompous >not inner intensity to trascend >DUDE OPIUM LMAO This french faggot meme needs to die
Oliver Rogers
ok
Caleb Morris
his music's the best of early romanticism outside of Beethoven, Schubert and Weber, though. On a sidenote, I agree that Beethoven started as proto-romantic, since he pretty much started the whole thing musically (as a continuation of Mozart) but he was full-on romantic during most of his career.
Colton Mitchell
>schubert >romantic >implying
Wyatt Roberts
guys?
Ethan Wood
Transitional figure, sure, but the case is virtually the same as Beethoven's: Early work is classical, quickly became transitional and most of his work (his highlights included) are perfectly within romanticism.
Gavin Long
I like this Beethoven image, very anime-y
Jacob Jackson
>you need to go through hardship to write good music when will this meme end
Ethan Jackson
Berlioz more like "be very far away from me, lolz"
Isaiah Flores
I dreamed I went back in time and met Mozart and he was really funny and smart and we talked a lot
Ryan Campbell
he would have hated you and worte a cantata about you eating donkey shit
Elijah Sanchez
:(
Isaiah Jackson
imagine being this resentful on a user's dream
Mason Reyes
>resentful imagine imagining someone could resent dreams
Michael Kelly
Pretty awesome to have inspired a Mozart piece anyways
Carson Morgan
that much is true
Austin Young
i think about this every time i eat ass, makes me feel better
Ian Baker
Please change the Bruckner 4 to this one, for Faustian epicness
>Celibidache frequently refused to release his performances on commercial recordings during his lifetime, claiming that a listener could not obtain a "transcendental experience" outside the concert hall. What a fucking pseud
Jonathan Perez
then get a less pathetic hobby
Justin Russell
No
Juan Rodriguez
So since this thread is dedicated to Beethoven, here is His piano sonata 27 : youtu.be/Fi9jVgP94ZA
Notice at 2:40 how he stays on the tonic but uses only motivic compression to fire up the repetition of the exposition of mvt 1. I guess using the dominant was just to easy for Ludwig.
What Celibidache said there isn't a hot take at all, most performers in the past just saw the recording format as a way to promote concerts I think Gould and maybe a few others were the only ones who saw the recording format as the future and though of it as a way to "elevate" a piece to a next level that can't be done in a concert setting
It's your job to hand it to me in a comprehensive package, you couch sniffing neckbearded mouth breathing ogre. Some of us don't have time to go searching the web for these things.
Wyatt Wright
go find a different hobby
Parker Martinez
Sorry, just listen to any recording done by Karajan or Maximianno Cobra
Luke Cook
Bc it's a faggy movie. He could have been obsessed with any other composer, it wouldn't have changed anything
Yeah thanks. Look I see how that's good but it isn't great. I mean compared to other violin virtuosos like Biber's Mystery Sonatas or Harmonia artificioso-ariosa.
Oliver James
Do you know about any vivaldi that has the same anger/frustration in it as ?
I agree with you. These guys devoted their whole lives to music. But I mean if you wanted to listen to baroque dance suites, why would you pick petzold over Bach or even other composers from the French school ?
To those questioning the melodic merits of early and middle period Beethoven, his early melodies were highly oriented around the harmony. Most early melodies were simply arpeggios with occasional connecting tones. A good melody is a smooth line that works with and against the harmony (a give and take relationship). It is not until his late period that Beethoven began to conform to this melodic ideal. However, it should be said that the “melodic concept” (if it can be called that) of early/middle Beethoven helped to express his harmonic vision very clearly, which was obviously revolutionary. His melodies were bad by most metrics, but well suited to the concepts that he was truly focused on.
Hunter Torres
>twitter "meme" formatting >on a laotian embroidering chat
It should be noted that there was a lot of weird rhetoric in the 20th century that associates the music of Beethoven with fascistic conceptions of the will and especially with violent expressions of that (ex. rape, there is some prominent feminist musicologist that claims that there are pronounced overtones of rape in Beethoven’s works). Obviously this interpretation of Beethoven’s music works well with the other traits of that character.
Isaac Sanders
>Melody oriented around harmony
What does this mean ? Beethoven had a haydenian method of composition ie using motives as basic building blocks of a piece.
Jeremiah Ward
Fuck off hans
Sebastian Young
>those questioning the melodic merits of early and middle period Beethoven no one is doing this
Nolan Lee
He did. But that can be done with either melodic concept (Haydn’s own music is proof). I mean that the most prominent voice at any time solely focused on harmonic tones with very little variation within a given metric unit.
Zachary Brown
>the brass when the Rheinmaidens start singing about the Rheingold Oh my god my fucking ears
Camden Morris
>there is some prominent feminist musicologist fairytales; no such creature exists
Asher Rogers
Blatantly untrue.
Alexander Lewis
Unironically this is why I love this site. Write out some informative post only to be thrown an epithet by some weirdo.
Wyatt Cox
no group that matters, or is numerous enough, is doing this, you just felt like assburgering out, and that's fine I guess, just don't try to pass it as some sort of righteous crusade
Parker Morales
This was literally happening in the prior thread. It is seriously one click away.
Ryan Harris
shut up hans
Thomas Roberts
Nice quads hans
Hunter Clark
Do you think he tried to put his dick inside a Trumpet anytime?
Owen Smith
Not Hans. But who is Hans? I’ve never seen any discussion of this ilk prior.
Logan Martinez
I don't understand what you're saying
Nathan Morris
>Not Hans nice one hans
Lucas Gomez
To boil it down, a good melody (as it is normally understood) occasionally works against the harmony, obscuring it and complicating it. Early/middle Beethoven’s melodies never did and were solely expressions of the background harmony.
Dominic Taylor
funny, I downloaded that one after some guy who's listened to like 10 different recordings recommended it
That’s basically it, yes. He learned how to write melodies that complicated harmony later on (one of few composers in history to do so).
Aiden Campbell
Because it's a very good performance, it's just that the brass is badly recorded over everything else t. Guy that has heard every single Wagner recording ever released
Christian Sanchez
well, it hasn't bothered me so far, and it's far better than the only recording I had listened to up to now, which is the meme one, you know which I mean
Thomas Hall
objective rating of the orchestra: strings > winds > brass > percussion
is it weird that i like listening to old analog recordings because of the tape noise
Brayden James
not weird, just pop-ist as fuck
John Turner
It's a good reading for sure (not as good as Keilberth's '52 or '53 recordings) but the issue is that Culshaw didn't know how to record for Bayreuth. You see, Bayreuth's pit is extremely deep, and the brass, because they're all shoved into the very back, have to really blare their parts to be heard by the audience at all. To the audience's ears, it isn't *that* loud, albeit very cramped sounding. Culshaw dumped mics into the pit directly however, causing the brass to take great precedence in the balance of the recording. It's weird, because he got it correct in his '51 recording of Gotterdammerung with Knappertsbusch - that is to say they put the microphones ABOVE the pit, not directly in it. Oh well. At least the singers sound great.
Luke Bailey
>'53 FUCK, I almost downloaded that one but my idiot brain decided the 55 would probably be better because it was a scant two years "younger"
Well, it was probably the better decision overall. Most of the releases of the '53 are problematic because they accidentally use Krauss' '53 recording of Siegfried for Act 1 rather than Keilberth's. Definitely grab the '52 if you see it, though. It might be a dull-ish sounding mono recording but it's probably one of the stronger Ring cycles out there.
From a theory perspective, why does Romantic music sound so much different from previous eras?
Nathan Barnes
they turned the Feels knob up to 11
Jeremiah Foster
because their conception of music changed, from yet another way to express classical (in the greek/post-romanic sense) notions of beauty and form to a discipline above others with a life and agenda of its own. In other words, this
Dominic Ward
They started using more modes more often, within the same piece. They started experimenting with ‘far out’ sounds on the iinstruments and really pushing them (Liszt’s Totentanz makes the piano very percussive in the intro, for example). Dynamics not as commonly used became a staple( diminuendo,crescendo, ritardando, stride piano (Chopin and stuff)). Also the piano didnt have all 88 pitches until sometime in the early 19th/late 18th centuries. Beethoven didnt have access to this, for example, which added new layers. Oh and pedaling.
Pedaling became huge with John Field and other early romantics. It’s not all that used in Baroque era like in Romantic era. Also Music became more for the people versus for kings and queens,but that’s another story
Revived counterpoint Expanded harmonic vocabulary Began experimenting with form Began utilizing longer, more vocally-oriented melodic lines Expanded size of ensemble and orchestral vocabulary Began drawing on musics outside of WAM Began to use more of the hallmarks of expressive language (dynamics, grotesque articulations, etc.) Emphasized the personal over the social in compositional aesthetics (also in society at large)
Essentially, they did literally everything in their power to make a more consciously intense, personally direct experience. (Large because of extramusical factors)
Brayden Diaz
tl;dr:
Christopher Miller
>Revived counterpoint But that never left
Liam Evans
That response was alright (too memey). The other was too keyboard-centric, and I resent keyboardists trying to make the whole of musical history about the development of their instrument.
Lincoln Gomez
It was significantly pared down (almost to the point of non-existence) by the practitioners of the galant style.
Joshua Richardson
>that never left no, no, it just went into hiding for a while
Evan Jackson
I think it's meant to be read as "reinvigorated", as in, they took counterpoint and gave it a new lease of life
Brayden Hall
>Began experimenting with form actually the Romantic era is the one musical era that didn't come up with new forms but refined the existing ones.
Mason Jones
What is the tone poem? What is the musical drama?
Isaac Fisher
>refined the existing ones. excuse me how is that not experimenting with form
There's some deep lore behind making Karajan black: >Karajan - 'Yes, it is. It is very strange, but with our race and in our latitude, rhythmic control is the most difficult thing for a musician to achieve. There is hardly a musician among us who can play the same note five times without minor variations. Part of the fault is that rhythm is never taught correctly to young musicians. For the Negro or African, it comes naturally - this sense of rhythm. As for myself, I can tolerate wrong notes, but I cannot stand unstable rhythm. Perhaps I was born in Africa in another existence. Once in Vienna after we had finished a recording session, I surprised everyone by telling them I was going to hear a Louis Armstrong concert. When they asked why? I told them that to go to a concert and know that for two hours the music would not get faster or slower was a great joy to me.' overgrownpath.com/2008/09/karajan-on-boulez-stockhausen-and.html >tfw you'll never be a complete metronome because you're white
Camden Davis
it's kind of funny how much Celi hated Karajan despite the two probably being the closest to one another insofar as their Bruckner interpretations went.
hell, Karajan is basically the ur-Celibidache in that WWII recording of the 8th, which is slow as balls
Easton Adams
>Revived counterpoint Not really. First of all, we shouldn't conflate counterpoint (a way of thinking about harmony) with polyphony (a specific texture). But neither was revived in any real capacity during the 19th century. Sure, there's some composers whose harmony is very contrapuntal (Chopin, Schumann, Brahms above all), but generally, contrapuntal conceptions of harmony becomes less and less prevalent throughout the 19th century, evidenced not only in a shift in music theory, but also in the musical mainstream of composers like Rossini, Berlioz, or Liszt. And when composers write in polyphonic textures, it is usually as a "poetic" quotation of the past - and it tends to stick out from the rest of the musical texture. There's so many cringe-worthy fugues that arrest the texture in Bruckner and Brahms (just listen to how the idea of "fugue as the developmental center of a piano concerto finale" gets degraded from Mozart K. 459 to Beethoven Op. 37 to Brahms Op. 15)
>Expanded harmonic vocabulary True enough. But it's also a process of reducing the harmonic contrast between expositional and developmental sections in the Classical style, a lot of what is considered typical in 19th century harmony can already be found in the development sections of the Viennese troika
>Began experimenting with form In the 19th century, sonata form became ossified and a true formal template, as opposed to the really flexible process it was during the 18th century. This is related to the 19th's century overvaluation of motivic-thematic elements over syntax and harmony.
Camden Miller
romanticism was the best period in music
Andrew Parker
continued from >Began utilizing longer, more vocally-oriented melodic lines That's probably the biggest difference, actually. The most important theories of musical form in the 18th century are basically bottom-up theories of musical punctuation, it's a style where toying with expectations takes place primarily on the level of the phrase - whereas the phrasing of 19th century music tends to be obsessively regular, eschewing all the artful elisions and overlaps that were considered central to the 18th century composer's art. Textures also become far more homogenous, if the Classical style is the art of integrating contrasts (and nobody did this better than Mozart), the Romantic style favors long stretches of sustained textural models - which obviously favors a kind of "immersive" listening, and a slower pace of development overall.
>Expanded size of ensemble and orchestral vocabulary True.
>Began drawing on musics outside of WAM Not true at all. Folk music is essential to Haydn, and can be frequently found in Mozart and Beethoven as well.
>Began to use more of the hallmarks of expressive language (dynamics, grotesque articulations, etc.) True. Earlier notated music expected the performer to infer much more, once we reach the 20th century, everything is made as explicit as possible - to the point where people feel the need to "fill in" the details in Beethoven or Bach.
>Emphasized the personal over the social in compositional aesthetics (also in society at large) That's very, very arguable.
Brandon Russell
>it's kind of funny how much Celi hated Karajan despite the two probably being the closest to one another insofar as their Bruckner interpretations went. There's really no point in expressing any sort of rivalry unless you're fishing in the same pond. The more similar you are, the more acute minute differences become in the struggle for recognition. You can see it on elite college campuses: There's really no space as homogenous in terms of class background and political outlooks, so of course you're gonna clamor all you can about other markers of identity and preference and whatnot.
Hunter Gray
hans pls
Nicholas Evans
this was not read
Owen Rogers
Your loss, keep living in the Matrix of wikipedia-level knowledge about music then
Anthony Garcia
>wikipedia-level knowledge I read your posts and that's all I got from them
Eybler should've finished completing the Requiem instead of that hack Sussmayr
Brody Morris
I couldn't care less about the Requiem, Mozart not finishing the C minor Mass is a much bigger tragedy.
Brody Ramirez
He probably "finished" it if shoving in movements form earlier compositions is what he had in mind from the start
Wyatt Nguyen
I don't think that was the plan originally, given how crassly different it is from all of his earlier mass compositions.
Adam Bell
EEEEEEEE E E EEEEEGOOOOOO
Luke Fisher
SUM A-ABBAS SUM A-ABBAS SUM A-ABBAS
Jason Robinson
Counterpoint and polyphony are righteously conflated. Counterpoint is a way of controlling polyphonic textures. The more richly polyphonic a texture, the more knowledge of counterpoint required to make it successful.
To act like 18th century composers wrote more sophisticated phrases is, of course, absurd. Phrase structure in the classical era (and this is literally the hallmark of the classical era) was obsessively regular. Composers of all eras (going back to people like Josquin and Palestrina) have made use of phrase elision. It does not belong to any era, and certainly not to the classical era.
True, that folk music had, for long, exerted an influence on art music. But, the works of the 19th century allowed for much more pervasive influence (I.e. the direct quotation of folk melodies for extended periods of time as well as the paint of folk forms; this is painfully evident in the music of the later romantics).
That the sonata form became much more standard does not speak to the amount of formal innovation going on outside of this.
Of course the growing influence placed on the individual is not really debatable, and is evident is all areas of European life and all products of European culture. This was very much the era of the “great man”.
Austin Anderson
>*revives renaissance polyphony* This is what I call BASED and REDPILLED
Because of your prejudices; we still live in a romantic era, at least mentally.
Evan Wilson
Hi SDF. Long time no see. Seen the Currentzis recording of Verdi's Requiem? It's pretty up there in my opinion.
Ian Foster
why is it that classical era music tends to be the least understood of all the eras?
Zachary Turner
It is dominated by two giants: Mozart & Haydn who overshadow everyone else. The classical era, more than any other, was about following a formula so everyone else ends up sounding like a poor imitation of those two making the rest of the era even more irrelevant.
>Counterpoint and polyphony are righteously conflated. Counterpoint is a way of controlling polyphonic textures. The more richly polyphonic a texture, the more knowledge of counterpoint required to make it successful. No, counterpoint is a means of conceiving of harmony (in the widest, original sense). Read some actual counterpoint treatises, from Tinctoris through Bernhard all the way to Fux. They primarily teach homophonic textures. Schutz' homophonic chorales are still conceived in terms of counterpoint. A homophonic 7-6 suspension chain may receive a variety of third and fourth voices, giving it different harmonic meanings from the post-Rameau perspective. But to the contrapuntal theorist, it will still be a 7-6 suspension chain, because counterpoint breaks down all sonorities into two-voice pairs, usually with the voices carrying unequal structural importance. Conversely, polyphony without any kind of contrapuntal coordination is incredibly prevalent, from traditional musics to the likes found in Debussy or Schoenberg.
Jose Lee
>To act like 18th century composers wrote more sophisticated phrases is, of course, absurd. Phrase structure in the classical era (and this is literally the hallmark of the classical era) was obsessively regular. Composers of all eras (going back to people like Josquin and Palestrina) have made use of phrase elision. It does not belong to any era, and certainly not to the classical era. Clearly, you a) do not actively listen to the classical style; b) do not read 18th century music theory; or c) follow scholarly literature on the Classical style. Of course the structure of the first theme will be regular. Music can only subvert the orders it creates first. The stability of the classical theme, harmonically, metrically, and hypermetrically, is only established to be broken down and re-established, eventually. No style does this as consciously as the Classical style. That is its hallmark.Go read Rosen and Caplin. And "phrase elision" - you likely mean evaded cadences, i.e. starting a sogetto in another voice as two others complete a 6-8 cadence, is wholly different. Josquin and Palestrina don't establish phrase rhythm to be subverted. It is the norm. A norm is never a subversion, or irregular. Irregularity presupposes the regular.
>That the sonata form became much more standard does not speak to the amount of formal innovation going on outside of this. *lyric ABA forms moving to a flat-side key for the middle section intensify*
>writting an essay of composers that used locrian modes on their works >suddenly youtube starts recomending things like "songs that uses locrian mode" and things like that I'm worried lads
Is there anywhere I can get sheet music for the ABRSM exam pieces without buying the official stuff? Looking for level appropriate pieces I can work on, imslp and musescore rarely have the specific ones.
He's good in 20th century stuff early in his career but JFC his Mozart fucking sucks, he can't even read the cut tempo for the great G minor symphony properly
Matthew Turner
His Mahler is sometimes alright.
Isaiah Sanders
Most great conductors fuck it up with Mozart, further proof that he is severely underrated
Eli Garcia
his Schumann symphonies are actually very good
Nathaniel Jackson
Considering there's no reply to this, I wonder how many people in this thread watch video recordings of ballets and/or opera. I know I don't, do you guys do it?
Noah Brown
ballets, sure enough; operas, not really
Jackson Flores
Omnia sol temperat Purus et subtilis Novo mundo reserat, facies Aprilis..
Most great conductors are good to great Mozart conductors, Bernstein is just overrated
Daniel Phillips
When you're so redpilled you hit random WHITE note clusters exclusively
Kevin Hughes
There are no good Mozart conductors
Christopher Parker
this but unironically
Xavier Wilson
great piece
Easton Lewis
>ywn attend a piano concerto in 1768 to see Mozart conduct the orchestra with his left hand while he plays the piano with his right he probably never did this but I can dream
