Hip-hop was been around for nearly 40 years and it still isn't a serious art...

yep. agreed

dubs check 'em

literally pushing the genre forward and the whole music industry

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>hip hop not a serious art
GZA has used more than 6000 unique words in the first 35k he put to music. That is almost 1 out of every 7 words.

I fucking dare an user to try and write something that complex

nah not really. i disagree strongly faggot

hate to be a cracker but clearly you have never listened to kendrick or kanye (or deathgrips if youre one of the people that count them as hip hop)

you're entitled to do so friendo

>protip: OP never can.
OP is officially a big faggot who ain't afraid to suck a cock for a dimebag of marijuana

hip hop isn't even real music, libtards. deal with it. facts dont care about your feelings.

eat shit off a dinner plate faggot

I'm not your friend, buddy

>kendrick
Sucks
>kanye
Only good as a meme
>deathgrips
Literally only ever seen anyone talk about them on this board. They also suck

wow this thread is shit

>hip hop isn't even real music
prove it, sweaty ;)

triggered snowflake

>hey guys im a contrarian, im so cool
shit tastes

Facts as in quantitative analysis? Like GZA using more than 6k unique words in his first 35k? Yeah you sound really smart and not like a dumbass user

The fact that so many books still name N.W.A. as "the greatest or most influential" rap group ever only tells you how far hip-hop music is from becoming a serious art.

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I know you're being ironic or whatever but it's true

Hip Hop is music in the same way that playing video games is a sport

why would you so willingly expose yourself as an ignorant pleb like this

I'm not a contarian. I've never enjoyed a single song I've heard from Kendrick Lamar or Deathgrips. Kanye is fun to listen to but he's only a genius if you have extremely low standards, which hip hop does.

It had a chance in the 90s and into the 00s but then dirty south happened

k dude

Shut up Ben Shapiro.

>a single song
To Pimp a Butterfly is an 80 minute concept album about Kendrick talking to Tupac. You're not going to get what Kendrick is doing if you only listen to "this dick ain't free" in isolation on YouTube.

Was it the ying yang twins?

Hip Hop is objectively not a very technical genre of music. Neither are punk, folk, or country.

That killed it?
I guess
But it was almost the entirety of rap in the mid 2000s

not only is playing video games a sport, it's almost the only sport i'll watch at all

It is okay to have ill-informed opinions, that doesn't make you any less wrong or stupid though

hip hop has been around for probably over 40 years, and the first recorded hip hop song was 40 years ago (maybe 39 years and 5 months to be precise) ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapper's_Delight )

You could argue any acapella that ever existed is just Proto Rap

that's your opinion

It goes on and on and on on and on
The beat don't stop until the break of dawn

>folk, or country.
You ever tried to play a fiddle or steel guitar?

Yeah but I have quantitative analysis on my side proving the worth of hip hop. You just keep talking bullshit all the while not possessing a creative bone in your body.

I look at you the same way I would an 8 year old

No but I play fretless banjo which I think is of comparable difficulty to playing fiddle. In fact I'm quite well versed in old time banjo playing, which is why I was qualified in the first place to say that folk is objectively not a very technical genre.

That's not to say that folk doesn't require any technical ability whatsoever. Far from it. But the range of techniques, tempos, melodies, and harmonies used in American folk music is fairly limited. Especially when you compare it to something like jazz or classical.

you sound like a narcissist. i don't speak to narcissists. so goodbye

I sounds like someone who can form an argument. You sound like someone whose feelings get hurt when they are shown how ill informed they are on a topic. A lot of 8 year olds might act the same way.

Dubs CHECK EM

nice dubs, can i have some

>Especially when you compare it to something like jazz or classical.
I think that's fair to say but it's a couple orders of magnitude above hip hop still.

Quite possibly. And also a couple orders of magnitude above punk.

But my original point is anyway that you can't judge a genre of music by the technicality required to play it competently. Some genres of music are by nature not very technical. But they can still be great.

I'm not shilling for hip hop either. I just don't consider the fact that hip hop isn't a technical genre to be a problem in and of itself.

Ever since recording was invented the "technicality required to play it competently" doesn't matter that much. At least to me.

Sampling has made niggas lazy. They need to pick instruments again.

You have to be competent with some number of techniques in order to generate interesting musical ideas efficiently.

>Completely ignoring artists like Lamar or Kanye

ok retard

*blocks your path*

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Right, but this is the point many Anons have in regards to music. It's no longer about the musician, it's about the fucking '''''workflow'''''.

Yeah I don't buy that argument.

That the act of creation is now strictly outlined to work within the marketing and managerial schedules of corporations is certainly a killing blow to artistry. What informs what? Does workflow inform style? Does style inform workflow? Are they one in the same?

The fact that you have to efficiently express ideas is mindlessly spurted out despite the very need for the efficiency is solely for the use of recording companies. Nobody takes a lifetime to write down a sequence of chords. Shit, you can memorize them if you have to. Come on. This is just flat out iron cage rationaliztion. It's not even poptimism at this point, it's stockholm syndrome.

Jesus Christ, the state of this board

What I meant is that I don't buy the argument about workflow being more important than technical ability/creativity/whatever. Wasn't criticizing your point.

It is, the workflow is totalizing now. Splice, NTM, these are all things that teach you the style and substitute the creativity needed as all this is, is a fucking churn for consumer hobbyists. If you really wanted tools worth a shit, they don't have pretty websites with marketing budgets. They're ugly and come with big manuals. Now my question still remains, user. I'm genuinely intrigued about your answer:

>What informs what? Does workflow inform style? Does style inform workflow? Are they one in the same?

Dude. You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm agreeing with you.

Neither one of us is using very precise wording and that's making things confusing.

Artistry _should be_ more important than workflow. Workflow _currently is_ overvalued.

I'm agreeing with you too, but I'm just asking the question to you, fampai. I think you're being pretty crystal clear and I may be a bit ambiguous, I apologize.

This is why hip hop is going to die. You see all these rap faggots name dropping kurt cobain but you never see them name dropping thom yorke. Because they know rap is too stupid to pull a radiohead and if it did pull a radiohead it would basically mean the deconstruction of rap and attack on everything rap values

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That being said, I do think that being able to generate interesting musical ideas efficiently is important. I know lots of musicians who produce shit quality music because they really don't know what they're doing. They come up with melodies that don't make any sense at all and just aren't memorable. And their music ends up sounding quite repetitive. Because it's all arrived at purely through trial and error. They try to reinvent the wheel, when just knowing a basic array of techniques would allow them to arrive at much more interesting musical ideas.

Music is largely about experimentation, sure. But one should avoid having an extremely large proportion of their experiments end in failure. Otherwise they'll be unlikely to have enough successes to produce more than a trivial amount of worthwhile music.

Ultimately workflow and style shouldn't be correlated. Once one has a basic array of techniques under their belt, "optimizing" their music making is a non-issue. They'll be likely to arrive at interesting musical ideas pretty frequently (assuming that they have at least some degree of innate talent).

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Yeah now pop is being called art, so that hip hop can have a reason to be elevated. Pop can still be fine, but it’s still just pop. That’s being fucking forgotten by everyone who give high marks to pop releases on the merits of pop music, but then this just produces something being lost in translation when they give equal or lesser praise to supposedly “serious” art

I think that the rationalization of production and creativity has been a goal by many post-80's producers as the word of the day for a while has been 'speed'. I think that Paul Virillo got right what Adorno got wrong. Whether or not you believe in the latter fellow, this is the final art project, unfortunately. The ability to take not only what is good, but how to make good, and distill it's steps and form into an optimized flow in which anyone can 'enjoy' the 'trials' of creative endeavor. I think is somewhat wrong because of this, because pop is the final art. I think many poptimists are right in this case, but ultimately I think they take it as a badge of honor instead of the death badge that it is. I don't know what comes next, irony is easily coopted, authenticity is easily won by feigning irony at the moment and there's nothing to escape it. Until people stop clicking pitchfork links and reviews and start, enjoying music in the obscene way we did before the internet, there may be hope. The same goes for producers and creatives. Stop fucking consuming so much.

As for the arrival of creative ideas, frankly, any idea is a good one so long as you follow through on it. It's a daily ritual. You just do it. Metal might not be your speed but I came up with this on the shitter with a copy of reaper open two mornings ago. vocaroo.com/i/s1zJv2FDGI1a. It's always just been the confidence to say, "I like what I do."

Now marketing it is a whole different animal, but I've always likened music or art, good music and good art that is, to be something that matches the terrain of your immediate life. It's to be enjoyed with friends, circles of people who seek to connect with that which makes the world around them. Instead we live in a homogenized heap now that has been replaced and coopted by phones and other, I fucking hate saying this word, totalizing forces. Now the very act of creation is being invaded by these things.

>vocaroo.com/i/s1zJv2FDGI1a
not the other guy but i wouldn't mind listening to 45 minutes of stuff like this

Unironic hip-hop hate is one of the biggest cancers Yea Forums has yet to recover from. It started with the advent of "meme rap" in 2013 and now you have full blown autismo plebs larping as the arbiters of music and art. It's just so fucking reddit-tier.

I generally transfer a good deal of my shitting ideas to guitar, though a problem with some of them, it requires me to set up esoteric and hemorrhoid-inducing tunings to play them-- but I think that the only way guitar will grow is with playing it like a fucking synth, now. (hot opinion that many post-rock fags will step on me for because all this is is double-baked metalcore to some)

Zillakami actually enjoys Radiohead.

>Literally only ever seen anyone talk about them on this board.
Well that settles it, if it's obscure it's not art! Only famous things are art, that's why The Velvet Underground (which in many ways lead to people thinking of rock as a serious art form) sold millions of copies

When you say hip hop you are talking about the shitty parts of hip hop automatically, a mistake that many people make.

The problem with "hip hop" is the lack of focus on the instrument as integral to the music. There's no such thing as an iconic hip hop riff.

Doom doesn't even like hip hop, why would anyone else?
>I write rhymes and shit to get money. Other than that I don’t listen to hip-hop music. I listen to jazz music and instrumentals and shit like that. I only do this for the simple fact of points-per-rhyme, the point game. It seems to be a profitable thing these days, and nobody else is really paying attention to it. You can be about your points, and if nobody else can do it, you can get some change off that joint, because you’re the only one doing it like that. That’s what I get out of the rhyming.

Yeah that's actually decent

Just practice your writing everyday and don't sit and wank about if it's any good.

>t. Didn’t listen to the album

>but you never see them name dropping thom yorke.
Brockhampton and Kanye have literally name dropped Radiohead as influences before you dumb nigger.

youtu.be/aWYk99l3BC4
I think this is a very fair choice
youtu.be/hMoGGb9OBAs
As is this
But hip hop is overrated as a whole

>KILL WHITEY

Unironically true (besides the part about pushing the genre; they may have inspired Bowie on Blackstar, but hip hop is taking more out of the handbooks of Waka Flocka Flame and Lil Peep), but no one will agree because this has been said so many fucking times on this board

GZA is 200% based

Israel

>After a short period of time, genres like rock and jazz developed more complex scenes and compositions like bebop and progressive, which are discussed more critically.
Rock and jazz never became serious art either. You'd have to a t least be a little delusional to believe that. Nine of the "more complex" fprms. of this music ever meaningfully elevated it, and the critical.discussion has always been a farce.

none of thier music has been on par

It's still just empty complexity. Like some sort.of awful ELP or Maynard Ferguson performance.

A 5%er will never come up with anything meaningful to say no matter how slick he sounds.

When u played in middle school jazz band for a year and skimmed through “giant steps”, wow user you’re so interesting let me just hand you all the pussy you’re attracting Mr “my music taste is superior”, kill yourself faggot no one cares

>Rock and jazz never became serious art either
You're fucking retarded.
youtube.com/watch?v=5IsNHDuwJrM

Frank Zappa didn't listen to rock either, he listened to jazz, classical, world music, that kind of thing.

Zappa was a fan of 50s doo-wop music which I would consider closer to rock than jazz

Sentimental swill made to appeal to the masses for profit. It's as far from art as you can get.

i used to like rap a lot when i was younger but it gets old fast

99% of rap lyrics are either money guns bitches nigger shit or socially conscious garbage and sadly as long as black and white teens exist they will continue propping up garbage redditcore "artists" like kendrick lamar and run the jewels or whatever shit niggers are listening to now

most of the standout artists (good or bad) from the last 10-15 years have done something different, eminiem and tyler with the edgy randumb shit, xxxtentacion and lil peep with the emo shit, kanye rapping about dropping out of college, mf doom with le quirky supervillain shtick, lil b and soulja boy through memes & the internet etc

rap is one of the most stagnant genres, its been limited heavily by the boundaries of the genre itself as well as its retarded fans, at least now with the soundcloud fad they dont have to be successful to be good but theres still just not much interesting music. syringe and young thug are the only 2 rappers i listen to from the 2010s

>isn't a serious art
it is, but you wouldn't know cause you've never actually listened to hip hop beyond radio shit. Fuck off, I'm not gonna spoonfeed you

>and it still isn't a serious art
who says that? white men? the same white men who are getting replaced everyday by millions of minorities? getting breed out of existence?

Yeah, I'm sure people who listen to rap care about this shit

Hip-hop is like what Nick Cave said about the free expression zone in Copenhagen. "You have total freedom to do anything you want and what do you choose to do with this freedom but make bad paintings and sell love beads."