I like Joy Division but I'm still in the dark as to what the Nazi imagery is supposed to achieve artistically...

You guys are so fucking young. It used to be unthinkable that a reasonable person would honestly be into nazism (beyond its esoteric and shock value) so it was understood that groups like this and early punks could never be serious because it’s a dumb concept.
This is why punk quickly distanced itself from actual neo nazis.
You guys don’t know shit about cultural context.

It was the cool punk thing to do at the time. The Ramones did it, the Sex Pistols did it, and Siouxsie & The Banshees did it, so Joy Division did it.

Ian's wife claimed that he used to make edgy /pol/-tier jokes with his band so it's quite possible he was right-wing

>punk quickly distanced itself from actual neo nazis.
how fast? like fucking DECADE, eh?

Y-awn.

By 1980, nazi imagery was out. It wasn't cool anymore.

The fact that it pisses off idiots like you entirely justifies its existence in music circles.
If you don't even understand that you're beyond saving.

>By 1980
>Joy Division

I thought this leftist scum started yelling about nazis at mid 80s, so it's pretty much decade since punk turned completely left

Punk was already dead by 1980. The Sex Pistols had broken up and there was no Nazi imagery in Public Image Ltd., the Ramones only sang about Nazis on their debut album in 1976, and Siouxsie was already wearing her famous Star Of David shirt to piss off the National Front after they started showing up to her shows. Dead Kennedys released their söy anthem "Nazi Punks Fuck Off" in 1981.

Joy Division only existed until early 1980. What the fuck are you talking about?

ok, if you wish so,
>New Order

>The Asian family we sold our home to were amenable and very polite, and even though they expected us to leave our meagre sticks of furniture behind, the sale went through smoothly. Ian could be very quiet and polite when it was required and it wasn’t until I spoke to Pete Hook that I realised how racist Ian could be. Drinking spirits always had an adverse effect on his temper and it was only after one of these bouts that he began making vicious, prejudiced comments in an Indian restaurant. He talked about how one family took the toilet out of the house to make another bedroom, defecated onto newspaper instead, and then threw it into their neighbour’s garden. The rest of the band thought this outburst very funny, but this facet of Ian’s personality was hidden from me and at the time I thought Ian shared my ‘live and let live’ views.
- Deborah Curtis, "Touching from a Distance"

I wouldn't be surprised to hear he was a National Front guy, bit of a shame. Morrissey had a few friends in those groups too and that eventually rubbed off on his music. I wonder if the same would've happened if Ian lived.

You don't sound old neither

the imagery was supposed to invoke the strict, stoic bleakness that was key in their aesthetic, as well as highlight the connection between german gothic romantic melancholy and their own influences as poetry.

the second point i made (connection to german gothic romanticism) was important in other bands in what later became the "goth" scene, which also borrowed from german expressionism from the early 20th century.

and of course, in other bands, the appropriation of nazi imagery was meant to be transgressive, to shock the audience and to attract attention. It was no more political than say, GG Allin shitting himself on stage.

If Ian Curtis voted for Thatcher that's beyond the point. Thatcher wasn't a nazi. I personally disagree with a lot of Thatcher's politics, but that doesn't make her a nazi, nor does it make the act of supporting her politically inherently nazi.

Let's try to be reasonable in our assumption's about people's politics.

It doesn’t piss me off at all. The music is garbage.
Being realistic isn’t being pissed off.

>It doesn’t piss me off at all.
You're not fooling anyone

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>It doesn’t piss me off at all.

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WWII is the creation myth of the modern religion of multiculturalism. Its symbols are now as culturally prevalent as the cross. Anybody can appropriate symbols in their art for any reason, reverently or irreverently.

>the second point i made (connection to german gothic romanticism) was important in other bands in what later became the "goth" scene
Joy Division get WAY too much credit for influencing goth and post-punk. I love Joy Division, but they basically ripped off Siouxsie & The Banshees' sound. Peter Hook admits that the first two Banshees albums influenced the hell out of his playing style. They're the true pioneers of goth and post-punk.

and--I know they're not goth, but Bowie and Iggy Pop were basically doing goth fashion before goth. the lipstick, the androgyny, the Weimar theatrics, etc.

Correct. Glam rock like Bowie, Iggy Pop, T. Rex, and Lou Reed along with silent films and classic literature influenced early goth bands like The Banshees and Bauhaus.

>wojak
o no you got him

tasty

Based quads

checked

Does it matter? You can borrow inspiration from someone's art, and not have to adopt their ideological beliefs. That's like saying you're not allowed to read the work of Lovecraft as he thought Africans to be sub-par the other races of man, and disliked Jews despite marrying one.

I blame Americans for being so touchy-feely about everything. So much for being the bastion of freedom; you can't even have artistic freedom, let alone voice your own opinion.

based

literally new order had no nazi connotations what so ever except the name.

literally just edginess
this
zoomers grew up with actual unironic neo nazis all over the internet and it's warped their concept of nazism as an edgelord joke. imagine a zoomer drawing a swastika on a desk these days. even in the early 2010s it'd just be "Oh that's inappropriate" but these days they'd probably be put on a fucking watchlist because people would assume they were serious.

It was considered cool at the time and they were right to think so. It may be hard to believe but punk used to be anti-establishment rather than pro-authoritarianism.

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What exactly is your point here? You say zoomers are the ones with the warped perception of nazism because they find it a harmless joke but then also say they are the generation to get in trouble for making harmless jokes that every previous generation did. Clearly their warped perception is they are the first youth generation to NOT realize it's a harmless joke.

How is expecting them to POO IN LOO being 'racist' exactly ??? If you live in the UK you have to fucking POO IN LOO not in designated neignbour's garden, fuck sake !

>muh scary internet neo 'nazis' !11!
Fuck off, there are no real neo nazis left, there used to be actual neo nazi skin heads.

fucking lmao. based

>You say zoomers are the ones with the warped perception of nazism because they find it a harmless joke
???
you misunderstand, i said a zoomer growing up on the internet today will warp their view of nazism as an edgelord joke. as in they won't consider it an edgelord joke.

Onions Division

RESPECT THEIR CULTURE YOU BIGOT

damn

OP here. I never said the answer would influence how much or little I like their music, that's your own assumption.

name 3 examples of new order referencing nazism.
Except their name

Can confirm. Not underage

Banshees were always a musicians band. Everyone in bands in those scenes adored them, but they never really resonated with people looking back. It's a shame really. Banshees were consistently a couple steps ahead of every other group, even if their songwriting wasn't always the strongest.

Read a fucking book, retards.

there´s a scene of a graffited white power symbol in the Regret video