Why can’t socialists ever critique Capitalism properly?

why don't you do something helpful and shoot some billionaires instead?

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Back to your trap threads sheep

**when white people do it for other white people

>”Me tribe better den u tribe!”
What’s it like being the living embodiment of retardation?

Or even when other races do it for other races. I have no problem with Ba'athists or Synarchists or other, non-white fascists who want that kind of system for their own countries

why wont white people go back to their own countries

do you know what socialism means?

You’d be one of the first to get killed in a society hijacked by socialism, and the whole time you’d be thinking “politics doesn’t affect me” and “its always been like this, this is the best system we have, even though its not perfect.”

So like i said, get the fuck back to your pen sheep, intelligent people will do the thinking for you, so you can continue living your worthless existence in peace.

No and let me guess, its YOUR nuanced definition that’s the ‘correct definition’ and all the examples of mass genocide and starvation all done under the name of socialism in the 20th century is “just because they didn’t follow your nuanced definition.”

Because, my disingenuous friend, the white settler nations are our countries now. White blood is in the soil, you could say.

Yea totally. Shit flinging about whose cock you want to suck on a Japanese-inspired anime imageboard is very beneficial to the political field.

Apply yourself, or better yet, kill yourself.

then you made your bed, now lie in it

Pretty cringe. Tbh I'm optimistic.

The average illiterate nazi gamer kid doesn't realize how awesome and prosperous Europe is. They repeat "the muslim immigration crisis has turned Europe into an unlivable hell hole ruled by Sharia law" over and over until they believe it. Meanwhile Social Democracy policies make the quality of life and average wealth in northern Europe fucking amazing. Oh well. This board is full of shit for brain failures and illiterates. Cheers motherfuckers. Good luck to you crazy dreamers.

optimistic about what, dying from ecological collapse from out of control consumer economics?

this is accurate. too much cheetoh dust in their eyes to outside the red white and blue wage slave pit

Communism and Socialism are not the same thing retard

Well, Graph Twitter is right that that's probably going to happen, but the collapse of the great Satan is hardly a bad thing even if it means I die. And that's the worst possible outcome.
>muh succdem
It's also full of w h i t e p e o p l e.
The succdem helps, without a doubt, but talking about systems instead of people is faggot shit.

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if socialism is so bad why do nigger countries like italy have a higher life expectancy

shouldn't everybody be dying in line to see the doctor

>politics is cancer hurr durr
>ends up having an emotional response to being told how it is, and defending the field of politics

Holy fucking shit, you need to consume more bull shit television, you’ve had too much to think

Yawn

he's right though

1. social programs = taxes are used to fund public good

2. socialism = all workplaces are democratized, the production is held in common, produce is divvy up amongst the workers (in a way decided by the people)

3 communism = an achievement where 100% of all of your people get enough food, clothing, medical care, housing, work and so on

marx predicted that Capitalism would be unable to achieve Communism even with social programs. He believed that socialism would be the only way to achieve communism

ever since the invention of autogestion capitalism has been obsolete

Marx's predictive and prescriptive power is fucking zero. He was a good sociologist and a decent economist, and that's all.

his works are only 250 years old, give it some time

>decent economist

the entire field of economics has been developed on purpose to exclude marxist thought lmao

obvious bait but here

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for real economists are just cheer leaders for capitalism and high finance

Where is the revolution in Britain and Germany? He didn't even predict fascism, and no, rendering fascism as a degenerate form of capitalism is Third International propaganda and not a legitimate understanding. The man was intelligent, but Marxism is hardly the be-all end-all of socialism and it's distinctly outmoded on top of that. A lot has changed in 250 years, and calling your ideas "immortal science" doesn't make it so.
Indeed neoliberal economists don't like Marx. But he was an economist even so, and it should tell something to you that capitalists use the language of Marxism far outside its actually useful sphere.

when the hell did i say immortal science? quit putting words in my mouth you piece of shit

why dont you just go and fuck off if you're gonna do shit like that

Except that the father of Communism said Socialism’s aim is communism.

So he’s correct in that socialism is one or two steps from the complete and utter shit that is communism.

But my original point was referring to those things done under the banner of Socialism AND Communism. So the original point is moot

>Marx
>good economist

Sorry, you’re retarded, and so is Marx. What kind of idiot understands markets and capital SO little that he literally thinks a static two dimensional socio-economic theory would last more than a decade in its accuracy, if that.

That's the Marxist line on their "scientific socialism." That it's immortal and ever improving, when in fact the dialectic has completely passed it by.

The most important Marxist of today is called a fascist by liberals. Because fascism is what they really fear, not the post-1968 neutered lapdog with no revolutionary potential that is western Communism.

Capitalists are faggots too, but I don't have time for your boomer shit, I'm browbeating a communist.

imagine distilling ignorance to such a level that this shit is taken seriously, even with the lmao at the end

Not even woth responding to

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>say communist are stupid
>take them seriously when talking shit about socialism
>quote a communist with little to no thought of what or why the statement is made
>use it anyway

well that would be cool and all if I were a marxist dogmatist but science develops and continues

like you're just arguing with a book, whereas i'm trying to tell you what I've come up with

Theft demands that something that someone owns be taken from them entirely.

a) how can one “own” a wage
and b) when has anyone involuntarily been given a wage?

no cohersion doesnt mean that its fully voluntary, and its not that you own your wage its that someone is feeding off directly from what you produce affecting your potential wage ergo living means

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you realize, that because taxes are taken at full cohersion, that for consistency, you must join the "taxes are theft" crowd right?

>a) how can one “own” a wage

you own the wage by having a contract and fulfilling your end of it.

>b) when has anyone involuntarily been given a wage?
it isn't really voluntary if there's an implicit threat like
>take the pay cut or you're fired

>movements and societies that espoused socialist theories, policies and views for decades
>all j-just joking right
>they were just playin' i promise lol just jokesters

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sorry lad no workers control over the means of production no socialism

sorry jerry mc boomer youll have to see a litle bit more educational videos or something because you are just ridiculing yourself

you can't own a wage, you can own the capital that is paid to you by that wage but only after you've sold something in exchange for that wage. i.e time and labor/expertise

>it isn't really voluntary if there's an implicit threat like
I missed when Wal*Mart and Amazon had roving gangs of brownshirts forcing everyone to go to work for them

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Game over thing's going to be 'it', going to do a massive schoolshooting discord.com\uzAtczX
PUQw

..so why didn't the workers take control in those societies? they had ample time and all the backing of the relative state

Also why don't the worker's control the means of production now, nothing is stopping them from banding together to purchase manufacturing equipment and shouldering the risk of owning a business. They've had over a 100 years since the industrial revolution to do this.

What gives?

yeah I believe taxes are a form of theft but oh...
what is this!? 70% of my labour turned into profit,
and the remaining wage has to give up 20% to the government?! Gee I wonder who steals more from me

that for consistency you must join the ":private property is theft" crowd right?

first question: no they dont
second question: ever heard of cooperatives?

>what is this!? 70% of my labour turned into profit
That the business owner uses to pay other workers, and their own bills. Stock/gear to continue the business so the wages continue and the worker stays employed. Utilities for the business so the worker can still do their work and stay employed, rent/lease on the business so the worker still has a place to work and earn a wage.

>the remaining wage has to give up 20% to the government?
That goes toward giving politicians high wages and congressional pensions, corporate welfare funding for war

Yeah... the worker is the one getting screwed over, damn those business owners they're the bad guys here!

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there are real arguments against socialism, its sad that most of the people against it use arguments that rather than having some moral stance or ideological concept its some overused argument that can be debunked even by capitalists

Why not, the state all promised and got power saying the worker would own the means of production, and when they didn't why didn't the worker do something, you know actually hold the powers accountable?

oh right they couldn't because in giving the government all the power to acquire the means of production they also got given secret police and military states. Huh it's almost as if the theory/ideas are faulty at their core and only serve to empower the powerful with false promises to workers

Yep cooperatives, all them in the Forbes top 100, oh wait..

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first of all Im talking about personal profit not expenses that the buissness needs

Sexond of all that tax is obviously falling into some high wage oplititians but as you know taxes maintain the integrity of the government which is supposed to I dont know enforce law, goive healthcare, invest it into schools, transport roads.

Your government may be shitty but gee america isnt the whole planet

>state all promised and got power saying the worker would own the means of production
ever heard of how nazis got popular with the lower class?

Its a fucking lie user , believe or not many people want humane working conditions but are not informed enough to know what the concept of socialism is

That right there isnt socialism it is demagogy

Socialism is a concept that has been thrown around in many occations but it really has never been fully implemented into a country

expenses the business needs come out of personal profit. Where the fuck else do you think it would come from?

Jesus fucking Christ, get a basic education in business accounting or something, before you comment on this shit, seriously you're like a 12 year old in how you think and believe the work and business works.

all governments are the same, if you think governments are any different in any other country, you truly are a 12 year old

so what you're saying is, we shouldn't trust any politicians or person who uses socialist rhetoric or promises socialist ideals, because in all likelihood they are Nazis.

Good finally we're getting somewhere, and you're learning politicians are lying assholes with only their own personal gain in mind.

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yeah and that graph tracks "exchanges of time and labor as modified by expertise" that were not compensated in the transaction. the businesses in question did not fulfill their end of the bargain.

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just don't look at an archaeology book or an anthropology book, because those are not science, they are (((science)))

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First of all no

What I meant is that the concept is popular between the lower class, which was the main reason the nazi party got popular but as you know nazis represented the opposition to the communist and somewhat socialist parties which wanted to handle private pproperty differently

It isnt about judging at face value, its about informing yourself instead of being an ignorant asshole. As simple as making research about the promises and recognizing if they resemble socialism in at least a basic way.

remember user the answer to anything is always proper education and research

Which theb people that voted for maduro and the ones who accuse his government for being socialist lack off

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//

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thats a real argument right there

but the Nazis used socialist rhetoric, for a good decade.

So how the fuck do you know, anyone else who does the same is going to be any different? You have no more evidence than any German had in the 1920's to make the discernment, so tell me how you're going to know the difference?

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Are you mad with someone user?
Thats creepyly specific for being a piece of criticism

As I said the concept was used because of its popularity with the lower class, such as chavez and the communist party in china does nowadays

Gee you are falling to the same lie

You have the intelligence of a german peasant or a venezuelan one

Let me repeat it for the last fucking time
no workers control over the means of production no socialism

when you have to use the seven up guy to strawman someone

your argument might hold up if business subsidies didn't exist

so what you're saying is, the workers are too stupid to know the difference between Nazis and actual genuine socialists, but these are the same workers who should control the means of production.

So we should trust any modern proponent of socialist ideals because they're not Nazis, even though there's no genuine way to discern this because the workers are too stupid. Gotcha.

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So you're arguing for less government intervention in markets and business... freer markets?

uh no my argument is you're full of shit and business subsidies is my evidence retard

you seem to cast a negative light about business subsidies, almost as if we should eliminate them and make the market freer. oh we're back here

no, lets examine your argument:

>expenses the business needs come out of personal profit.

why can't the expenses come out of this government subsidy, do you think the corporations should be free to leech off a people and not contribute?

the same people who dont want to put in the effort to move to a country where socialism is already established, want to establish socialism where everyone has to put in effort for the system to function

because who pays the government to provide the subsidy, either the same business or another business in the economy. Or it's funded with debt, which means it will be taken from business/the economy in the future plus interest

Which means you're literally just filtering money through a feedback cycle, and nothing but turnover would matter. It would fuck with a whole bunch of things like price signals

this

sounds like you're arguing what should be and I'm arguing what is

come back next year when you're in junior year debate kiddo

Do you live in Europe?

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i'm not the person you quoted but this shouldn't matter

First hand knowledge matters.

That's exactly what's going on with US sugar based in florida. It's subsidized like mad to offset the added cost of growing it in the USA. It provides no benifit to the tax payers, it's just a scam.

nationalreview.com/2018/05/sugar-subsidies-cost-taxpayers-billions-time-to-end/

>why can't the expenses come out of this government subsidy, do you think the corporations should be free to leech off a people and not contribute?
>asking for potential policy not discussing a current existing one
>sounds like you're arguing what should be and I'm arguing what is

you dumb asf nigga

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The government is dumb asf, it doesnt matter if its Dumbocrats or Republican'ts they're both economic illiterates

most of your post is just strawmans

3.6 roentgen. not bad but not terrible

>OMFG THE WORLD IS GOING TO END IN 12 YEARS BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE
>TRUMP IS LITERALLY HITLER AND AMERICA IS UNDER CREEPING FASCISM
>Conservatives big on fear study finds

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I demand you listen to my racist cousins anecdote and document it as 50 personal experiences

i am directly quoting you, how is that misrepresentation of your argument

it is, quite literally, your argument

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have you ever noticed that these fag liberals are trying to keep me from calling these moolies niggers?

this is censorship and these fucki n mud people are depriving me of my first amendment right to call these nogs nigs

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oh how about that, okay what is your rebuttal then?

granted, I can guarantee they are not as similar to religious eschatologists as AOC is

>religion

uh

>eschatologism

is this star wars lore?

>doesn't understand the definition fallacies
>doesn't understand how these fallacies operate
>gets called out on it
>demands a rebuttal as if they've displayed even the tiniest bit of intellectual substance prior to this post

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filename

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When you're too stupid to realize they're both strawman, but it's okay because you're a fucking retard and see every issue through a lens

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oh so you're above argument? its not that you can't back up your criticism its that you won't?

if you believe in biblical fairy tales, i don't think we have anything more to say to one another

I should get a tax credit for this, as I am being charitable

writingcenter.unc.edu/tips-and-tools/fallacies/

udemy.com/topic/reading-comprehension/

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socialism is about benefiting everyone. how does killing someone benefit them? you can tax the dead 70%

theres worse shit on the internet where you absorb everything from than TV

you're gonna tell me a snake made some bitch eat an apple and oh by the way some guys rib made that bitch

Game over thing's going to be 'it', going to do a massive schoolshooting discord.com\uzAtczX
NMhF

this goes to show how little you know about business. expenses for a business are taken right of out the gross income that business made. whatever is left over is personal profit and taxable

youre gonna tele socialism works?
the snake story is more believable

> you can tax the dead 70%
wat

and that "left over" you can set. its called a draw. you draw off what you want from the business and the rest stays in the business and usually get reinvested in shit the business needs or not to avoid paying tax.