So socialist fags. Why should I do the work of five people just to watch four people get just as much as I do for doing nothing?
>AOC
"we should have a universal income even for those who CHOOSE not to work"
if socialism is all about fairness across the lines, how is it fair to me, that I have to work five times as hard for one fifth the reward?
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how do you get 1/5 of a some reward idiot the idea is to give everyone some cash so rent and food and basic needs dont take up 3/4 of lower income peoples budgets. people always abuse any system who cares if they are sitting in their den smoking crack and jerking off with their shit all day you still can use the money to better yourself. and they can get the money by not actually stealing our taxes and funding a war machine
>fuck you, got mine
lol americans. socialism works pretty well here in europe, have fun paying $100k for an ambulance ride because the people who own the ambulance had the same idea as you
you didnt answer my question user
why should i work so hard just to have my work given to someone esle who refuses to help themselves?
socialism is still a form of welfare, i work so taneesha can spit out kids.
you dont have to work buddy someone else will....unless you would like to make more than the ubi then go ahead work and get ahead. you think it's more humane having people struggle to survive?
yeah and thats why basic income experiments never take hold amirite?
its takes production to make things, production requires work, the less people working, the harder it is to maintain that socialist crap, the fewer people workimg, the less happier they are u til they get fed up and stop working so that someone else can take care of them. eventually you run out of other peoples money
thats why your entire continent is full of cucked nations. you just dont care because everyone is brown.
Under Socialism, everyone will work. OR FUCKING DIE.
but socialism requires that everyone gets the same amount, that is what the liberals are saying.
its nature in its purest form, if you dont work, you dont eat except what you can beg for, as for stealing, giving people free shit isnt going to stop them from stealing, especially if they see others better off than they are, theyll think its unfair that someone who works gets more and will demand that they get the same, and then the progs in the world will feel bad for them and take more from the producers to give to the parasites so that the parasites will want to keep them in power lest they lose their meal ticket
so basically capitalism without the freedom of choice because the government makes the choices not the individual
you seem highly confused. you seem to think money is some universal constant. you seem to think that if someone makes a billion dollars they definitely did it fairly using a 100% fair system and using 100% fair methods.
this is wholly false. if a company gets "too big" that is not a sign that they earned getting that big, it is a sign that the system is fundamentally flawed to have allowed it to happen. attempts at preventing this from happening are band-aid solutions applied to a broken system. a system that subjugates the average citizen for the benefit of a tiny minority.
of course this is just reflective of the natural order of primate existence (humans being primates). primates have a strong hierarchy, with primarily alpha males being allowed to mate, while the majority of males dont get to mate. this is highly evident in human dna, where it shows, on average, only 20% of males breeding in the not too distant past.
we have tried to get past this, and rightly so, when we invented civilization. however, you will always have greedy, sinister people. capitalism, especially the rampant out of control capitalism you see in the united states, is the result of sinister people using humans natural competitive, primate behavior patterns for the benefit of the few.
Any attempts to prevent this sinister, greedy, minority from exerting control over our lives is justified.
nice thumbnail
You fucking neets have probably never achieved anything in your lives and have always relied on other people to do shit for you so you could be looked after, when you look after yourself and grow up you realise everyone could be a neet if they wanted to, the only real providers in society are the ones that go out and do it, allowing everyone to stay in their neet phases from children and never man up will just destroy society when nobodies stepping up to do the work
You yanks are fucked regardless, you work way too much for very little and are told it makes you better people, six days a week, one or two weeks off a year?, you are fucking mugs.
and so you think that human nature is naturally altruistic? no matter what system you put into play the smart ones will always figure out a way to benefit themselves to the detriment of others.
in commu ist russia we saw that the party elit ate very well while the proletariat had to stand in line in the hopes of getting a little bit of food. in Venezuela right now the party elite are eating very very well while the normal people have to dig through garbage and kill rats to eat. in that glorious nation of cuba they still have bread lines while the castros are fat as fuck from food
no man, human nature isnt a good thing. too big companies should be broken up into smaller companies to increase fairness, but our government wont do it and under a socialist government, the government would just absorb it to enrich the few at the top while the plebes are left wanting
I think its important to realise that all you capitalistfags would be junglemen with clubs without the state providing the structure and stability you need to keep us going forward with civilised life and not devolve into something like raiding based economies.
You've all seen the walking dead or another zombie show... ofc its a caricature, but there is truth in it... Without a central government having the monopoly on force to keep the order society will devolve into smaller governments, if they fall they again will devolve into smaller parts all the way down to the individual killing someone on sight to loot their backpaks.
Then again, if the government takes every labour you have in you and distributes it egalitarian or equally alike, no one will be incentive to work... and the net total of labour made would be whatever people could either be forced to or feel like depending on how you enforce that. It would get to a point where people start to act in their self interests really fast.
The only solution that works is a solution that has been SHOWN to work over and over, a healthy balance of both. Centrism.
The US as an example has slowly been drifting more and more to the Capitalist anarchy side, and the cracks are starting to form, really. Companies lobbied for this but are now leaving because they see that they can always find even cheaper labour in a slavelabour style hellhole. The current position is not sustainable, even the romans knew to implement the breadline to keep the poor from just taking what they need and overthrow the government.
Bernie however might be more socialist then the desired center, but its very very questionable if he will be able to pull the government all to his side in 1 or 2 terms. I feel he at the very least could restore order and balance on the socialism / capitalism scale, and make it so the opportunity culture is restored.
You can disagree with his solutions, but disagreeing with the problem is just national suicide.
>I have to work five times as hard for one fifth the reward?
do you work right now? how much do you make? how much does the CEO of your company make? do you think the current system is fair? really?
socialism can't be all fair, but it can even the playing field a bit, at leasts it lifts the burden on the poorest and most ill in a society, enables them to survive, while giving the richest of the country, aka the millionaires and billionaires, some of the burden to carry, not that they'll notice of course in their daily life, there's limited amount of time to spend near unlimited amounts of cash for these people.
I can't see anything wrong with that.
>people not starving to death is paramount to a stagnant society
this is bait and your image is stupid on multiple levels
Hey fag have you ever considered the bigger image? People who has the slightest to live with are not usually satisfied with what they have, instead these people tend to work harder to achieve better, this is just about being a fagy kek who's just to shy to ask for a fucking raise!
If you feel you are not appreciated at work and you deserve more just leave the fucking job don't blame the entire system for it.
ammendum:
The state does more then just "provide stability" too, loads of works are publicly funded and are the direct source of entire fields of our economy.
Imagine trying to set up a business today without the public road system... Risk reward management would be insane without these "common sense" works that end up saving everyone, including consumers a ton of money if we just do them with taxpayer money...
Some social projects planned by bernie have the same exact benefit. Social healthcare for example. If we have single buyer (the state buys healthcare for the taxpayer from the same companies we have now) IS cheaper, IS shown to work better then the system we have now by example of all over the world...
Its a common sense idea, it benefits everyone except for monopolistic healthcare insurers. And guess who funds the opposition to that? Is that Democracy? Capitalism? No.
the top one percent pays nearly 80% of all federal taxes. youd know that if you didnt watch cnn or read the nyt or listen to hypocrite bernie
Thank you for citing movies and series instead of actual historical facts.
Thoose bitchs just can't rational shit from rl anymore
>drifting more capitalist
What are you talking about? Obamacare? Fight for 15? CRA? Name a single free market policy implemented by a democrat in the last 50 years. They don't exist. I agree that the government has a role in regulating the free market, but only where it's entirely necessary. For instance, preventing monopolies. However, we should ALWAYS err on the side of libertarian policy. I'd rather be a jungle man with a club than a caged animal.
what the fuck happened to the ten trillion dollars obama spent? did you recieve any bemefit from that? government in control of everything isnt the answer
and yet we have businesses like dominoes fixing our roads when we're already taxed for road repair by the government
Id state historical facts but i doubt anyone here would know what i am talking about if i do... Everyone here however has seen or at least understands zombie movies and why people end up in individualist survival situations once the government gives way.
Also it prevents flamewars from historical revisionists trying to shoehorn their own explanation of why X or Z failed.
Guess i can never please everyone though. But ask yourself, did it work in conveying the idea i only had 2000 characters to explain in?
Somalia currently
Afghanistan post soviet retreat
The countless times china governments got toppled and the country fell into a few years or decades of national anarchy.
The fall of the Roman empire, before the formation of the reformed states.
How in the name of fuck do you think you could possibly do the work of five people? This smacks of the delusions of grandeur so typical of conservative thought; "no I'm not just another dirty working peasant, I'm a temporarily embarrassed aristocrat, so don't tax the rich because surely I'll take my place among them any day now." No, you are not a multi billionaire, and you never will be, not because of social programs, but because the actual rich people are quite free to keep the little people like you and me from ever challenging their supremacy.
Strong social programs and a well regulated market are the solution, not the problem.
>we have proof that single payer works
we have a single payer system here in america and its rife with failures and substandard care. its called the VA. in england it can take up to two years for hip surgery, and thats only if the government deems you worthy to get it. rationing care is not fair nor right, and under a single payer system, some would just be left to die because the government wouldnt want to pay for it.
sorry man, you cant have the operation because theres just no value in keeping you alive
are you seriously ok with living under the threat that life saving measures could be taken from you because someone somewhere decided that youre just not worth it?
china has been communist since the forties, before that they were flirting with democracy, but once mao took over theyve been commie ever since
the best cure to socialism is a proper course in economics
Exactly. If it wasn't for such massive social drains on funds, we could actually get the government to spend a reasonable amount on infrastructure. But we have ridiculous policies like social security.
>pay in $100 a month
>take out $2000 a month
>this kills the economy
Read up on communism thats what your thinking of and even that shit works in several places.
If my work provides a job for 10 people, I've benefited the economy more than any one of them. How do you people continually forget this?
That's not hard at all. People who earn 150k or more a year are doing the work of 5 people who earn less.
why the fuck should i work hard only to have most of what i earn taken from me to give to fuck nuggets like you who only sit in their room jerking it to trap porn you fucking weeaboo?
Socialism works, so does common sense.
Not from USA so my opinion might not count to you.
But that's okay, cause where I'm from, we have universal mandatory healthcare insurance, disability insurance, social security, free higher education.
Instead of a two party system, direct pure democracy, instead of getting shot all the time we get mandatory military training and a state issued assault riffle we have to take home with us once boot camp is over, but no gun deaths, no mass shootings.
We also have rather low taxes, and are one of the richest countries on earth, if you look at how much wealth the average citizen has, the third richest.
Life is good here.
where does it work in pure communism without capitalist overtones? china? north korea? nop and nope, the only reason chinas doing good is because theyve adopted capitalist schemes for their economy
Obamacare is not single payer, its a free market solution that just does not work.
The Affordable Care Act was originally drafted by conservatives under the leadership of Mitt Romney, Obama stripped it of all its teeth then implemented it so he could plant its flag and say mission successful.
I agree its a disaster, it was a compromise to the point of not working. Im looking more in the direction of expanding the VA, as an example.
Obamacare is not socialist or single payer healthcare. Nobody wanted Obamacare but Obunga and Mitt Romney.
are you retarded? are you actually retarded?
>>dont worry bro, you dont have to work, someone else will!
>nobody works
>system collapses
unironically kys
lucky fucking swiss bastard. but then you dont have nearly as many niggers screaming how they are too stupid to know better and a political class whos hell bent on keeping them in economic and literacy chains, who feed them the idea that they are victims instead of humans
please refer to the VA is a disaster in every sense of that word. stop.reading the nyt and watchimg the mad lesbian
>this
Can't believe we're still arguing about Obama care being representative of either system. A true free market system would do better, and a true single payer system would do better. They just wouldn't produce the same benefits.
10 trillion dollars didnt even go into the aca.
several trillion was swallowed up by companies that took the money and folded less than two years later
a lot of it was taken by states and squandered on kickbacks and unions who then gave the money back to politicians, who overwhelmingly were democrats
Old people should be wheeled into gas chambers instead of old folks homes when they hit retirement age, they really are useless. And who the fuck wants to retire anyway, sit around and watch tv while you decay into an ever more useless husk of a person, fuck that.
No, you're still doing the work of one person. Any one of those lesser paid individuals could do that job.
Didn't forget it, and it's more of a point in favor of socialism, because the typical example of such a situation would be a small business, something that could never succeed in a free market due to corporate dominance. Look at all the small towns across america destroyed by walmart, where it's the only store and the primary employer in the municipality.
That's... not how socialism works at all. You're mistaking... IDK what system that is it doesn't have a specific name, with socialism. Socialism just means instead of one private person, a CEO, an owner, a chairman, owning a multi*billion* dollar enterprise, and being paid on that kind of scale, it is own by the state instead and works without trying to turn a *corporate* profit, as in, the Company's bank account it supposed to be 0 at the end of the year (even in practice in Socialist countries, this is rarely the case, but it is the goal).
Public schools in the US are an example of what Socialism is, as are Police Departments; they are owned and operated by the government, but still employ people at all level of control (and pay them salaries).
The best cure to laissez-faire economics is letting economists run a country into the ground.
>see the last X economic depressions
Laissez-faire Capitalism is great a growth, not good at stability
Socialism is great at stability, not good at growth
By your powers combined, Bernie sanders is captain social democrat..
People these days think far too binary. Pure capitalism is uncaring and essentially requires slavery, and pure socialism is shortsighted and essentially requires slavery. Need a mix of both ideals to encourage market growth and success while not impoverishing the masses. It's not nearly as simple as you basement dwellers seem to think
An entirely unregulated market will lead to monopolies, this is true. But the only policy that should be implemented should ENCOURAGE competition, not restrict it. True socialism entirely strips away any motivation for competition, because every level of effort will result in the same outcome. Again, erring on the side of libertarian policy whenever you can is the only smart option if you value progress. If you want to stagnate, then go full communist.
want to know what would bring the cost down for real?
tort reform, the fact that drs have to carry multi million dollar insurance policies is a big factor. but we cant get that because the lawyers stand to lose billions a year then.
allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines like the auto insurance does. under the current system, each state is served only by a handful of companies who can jack up the prices to a greater extant. its why auto insurance is only at most a few thousand a year and why health insurance can eat up half your income
and get rid of the ability of big pharma to artificially inflate the price of their products
Sorry, but that is a retarded viewpoint. All work has a societal value, and some work has more societal value then others.
Would you rather have a doctor in your town or 5 baristas? This easily shows that some work is valued many times over other work, regardless of capitalism or socalism.
I made an app once and got lucky, its basically my income and i do temp jobs sometimes to fight boredom.
I do not contribute to the economy in any way... yet cream off the top without effort.
There are billions of leeches just like me leeching away from people actually doing stuff through capitalism, and there are people starving just from being unlucky enough from living in an area hit by a depression caused by Laissez-faire economics.
Im not even talking about "how that is fair", im talking about how is that sustainable?
>wheeled into gas chambers
Well, it's a bit extreme, but desperate times call for desperate measures.
you guys are keeping those niggers dumb through keeping them economically down? once you guys invest in proper education again those problems will sort themselves out.
Who will have the drive to build those companies without the financial reward for doing so?
>regulations that encourage competition in an otherwise free market.
No user, just take money from orange man and spend it on mexicans. That's the only solution.
bernie shouldnt own three houses and be worth several million dollars, he didmt do anything to earn that money
Tell that to vets and proceed to get punched in the face.
The VA is the most popular government institution in the US, just mentioning defunding it can cost your political career in both republican AND democrat circles.
The only problem with the VA is that its running on a shoe string budget, but making it universal and providing the funding lost through obungacare would basically give loads of opportunities to fix that.
Im not saying it would work, im saying it could work, it could very well be fucked up again by free market fucktards but at least it has a shot.
democrats are the ones keeping them down in the inner cities. just look at our biggest cities, theyve been run by dems for fifty or more years, and youll get the idea of how bad dems are
eventually you run out of other peoples money
>giving people free shit isnt going to stop them from stealing,
Believe it or not, but it really does stop most stealing. The only theft that remains once base needs are met are typically the white collar crimes that hurt society more but are fought less. Because paradoxically we care more for the less effective focus.
But it turns out giving the homeless homes is cheaper than not, same with food, medical care, and responsible amounts of recreational drugs.
Because unless you're going to murder massive groups of people we have to do /something/ with them.
No shit, that isn't what i was saying though retard. Go reread.
Well yeah, but that mixed system would be called socialism by most people. Without the economic regulation and social assistance there wouldn't be the upward mobility for people to start new businesses.
You produced a product that society deemed valuable. How are you a leech?
Is a person who "gets lucky" and works in a few movies a leech? How about someone who invents and patents a product?
A compromise solution is clearly far superior to both extremes, free market only leads to boom and bust cycles that decimate the middle class and make everyone poor but the people rich enough to sell nooses and graves.
refer your dumb ass to this post about how to bring the cost of health insurance downalso, dont you ever put words in my mouth again you stupid fuck. i never even hinted anywherr in this thread about defunding the va, but for some reason you had to build that strawman to knock down
My uncle is a 20 year vet, and he would agree with getting rid of the VA. Better budgeting by congress for the military is the real answer. Not some bureaucrats, who nobody elected, demanding that congress should divert tax money to pay for what SHOULD HAVE been taken care of by the military in the first place.
>socialism works pretty well here in europe,
Faggot we don't have socialism in Europe. We have social welfare policies to varying degrees but our countries are primarily capitalist. Whether capitalist or socialist, people who choose not to work are parasites and should not be supported by generous welfare handouts.
>most people
Then apparently most people don't understand what socialism is. A minimally regulated free market is not socialism. It's not even close.
>this
Several European countries have called out Bernie for referring to them as socialist. He even publicly apologized for it.
What society deems valuable is not the same as what is beneficial to the economy.
Lets say my app is literal crack cocaine addictiveness, and you get hooked by just watching others use it.
How do i contribute to society? How will that not just cream off the labours of others? how can you not see that?
Sometimes you need laws that go against free market economies, just to make sure that tomorrow the economy is still there. Just like you shouldn't be able to easily buy an atom bomb capable of destroying the planet you shouldn't be able to set up a system that puts people in an impossible position and leeches them dry.
Providing a base line of needs for people allows those people to have a jumping off point where they can actually contribute to the economy themselves. People who are starving cannot enrol in an intern ship or start a business... How can you not see that this is a problem?
I make 48k a year and pay 30% off it in taxes (actually 29 but we'll round it) .
every paycheck the taxes deducted is enough to cover someone's rent, so 2 paychecks a month, I'm paying someone's rent with one and contributing to our social programs with the owner. this is in NY btw.
all in all I wholeheartedly think the tax collected is too high. why should two months worth of rent be taken out every month? i know plenty of people who pay 50%, and that's just ridiculous. taxes shouldn't exceed 35%, paying half your wage in taxes is just bs.
Those who advocate for socalism are of the highest arrogance. For they purport to know the end results of interplay of complex government systems with individuals in said society. For a system that doesn't exist, and despite others having tried to do what they are suggesting and failing. Their lament is "they didn't try true socialism."
Those who advocate capitalism are simply looking at the results of the current world, empirical evidence and saying "yeah, we tried that, it was a fucking mess, let's not do that again."
Remember, socialism is essentially the idea that everyone else should get less on average because people don't like the idea of others earning an obscene amount of money.
funny how the "free healthcare for all".crowd dont wanna talk about how there would by necessity need to be rationing of care, and people who sit and determine if you get the care you need or if you just get wheeled somewhere and left to die without dignity, or how you would be pressured to just kill yourself.
Lol that already happens it’s called the irs
wut
The irs does that already
>WAAAAAH RICH PEOPLE ARE EVIL I WANT WHAT THEY HAVE BUT I'M TOO LAZY TO WORK FOR IT SO PLS GOVERNMENT STEAL IT AND GIVE IT TO ME
Commies, man. Jesus.
If your a socialist your a fucking loser. Period.
Who set up public schools? Who set up Police or Fire Departments? Who set up Medicade/Medicare? Who set up the Army/Navy (which is a textbook example of what a socialist organization could be, and people *fight* tooth and nail to be in charge of those organizations)? Who set up the Parks Dept?
There are PLENTY of people who want to set up organizations that are both a) successful and b) government run. If you or others are too lazy and too greedy to do so without owning majority stakes and/or massive profits, why should we care about you? Plenty of people would set up breweries that were government run, or hotels or anything.
And fyi, plenty of Capitalist states have failed, as have Democratic, as have Communist, as have Parliamentarian, as have dictator ships. Should the US abolish democracy because it failed in Cuba? Should the US abolish gun ownership because it didn't work in the UK? Should the US abolish Freedom of Press because it didn't work in the DPRK? Should the US Abolish supreme courts because they didn't work in Russia? Governments and economies are made up of people, and people are inherently flawed, and failures of a people should not reflect on a failure of a system. Socialism already exists in many ways in the US, and I think it's just the health care debate that turns people off because YES, it involves giving people of all stripes the SAME free costing healthcare, that is true, but bear in mind, that's because it's eliminating a middleman who does not ACTUALLY provide anything but a bag of money that it hopes to never ACTUALLY pay out of. You can still become a doctor, you can still own a hospital, you just can't collect $1500 a month premiums *and* never pay out when a person is sick.
People in the US who oppose socialism because it failed somewhere else have no respect or belief in the power of American work, as they think they are incapable of making a system that HAS worked else (and also has failed elsewhere).
Your app example is absurd. Nobody is forced to use an app. If you allow yourself to be controlled by an addiction to the point of losing all your money, it's not the government's responsibility to bail you out. The only laws that go against a free market economy that should be allowed are ones that encourage competition. Forcing equality of outcome destroys any motivation for competition.
I'd rather have a world where we continually move forward, but some people get left behind, than a world where we sit still in the dirt and slowly die together.
that just means your wages are to high to begin with, for you, wages out strip cost of living, for the majority, the opposite is true.
microsoft, amazon, aol/timewarner, google, walmart, they should be broken up into smaller companies to increase competition which will lower prices, same with comcast and spectrum, the fewer companies vying for a piece of the pie, the more they can charge for their services.
but those big companies can buy their way out of being broken up, which is wrong
I don't agree with that viewpoint. The economy serves the society, not the other way around.
If society deems something valuable, let's say, shiny blue rocks, then those who dig up, polish and sell shiny blue rocks will have prominent positions, earning a decent salary for them and their families.
Capitalisms strength doesn't lie within it's compassion, it lies in the ability to operate independently of government regulation, which is slower to react and generates waste.
That lack of waste results in a better average standard of life.
Socalism sucks. A basic economics course will show anyone why.
>samefag fagging up the thread
Social democrats. Its called socialism or democratic socialism in the US because people are dumb. Where are all the apologies from mainstream pundits calling social democrat ideas "socialism"?
Where are all the apologies from people here calling social democrat ideas "full socialism"?
Couldn't give a rats ass if they did or dont, but socialism and social democrat is used interchangeably as a way to poison the well. People in this thread did it all over the place.
Social democrat
Wants -> single payer solutions for problems that are best solved by single payer, like fire brigades, road networks, healthcare... ect paid for by taxes coming from a strong and vibrant laissez-faire economy. A hybrid solution
Socialism
Wants -> to abolish capitalism, and replace it by a single state run entity economy managed by the government.
Does not want -> to compromise
Socialism 'works' in Europe because the United States pays for over 90% of the cost for NATO and European defense.
It is a form of military welfare. Be thankful that we are so generous
Because we've largely eliminated the progressive tax that existed in the 40's and 50's. The so called 'Great America' people want to go back to also involved a tax rate as high as 82.8% on the wealthiest 2% of American earners and had far fewer loopholes. When EA games get's a Tax Refund on top of paying 0 dollars in Taxes, THAT's why you at 48k a year are paying 29% in taxes. The problem isn't taxes, it's WHO is being taxed. That great economic growth, the one that put the US on top and made the $ the reserve currency of the world? That happened during the period of the highest Corporate and personal tax rates in the US's history. Also the repeal of Glass Stegal is a huge problem but that's a whole other issue.
Can you please be a facist agitator somewhere esle?
user you are doing god's work ;)
I didn't say minimal, when I did specify I said a well regulated market. I do agree that most people don't understand or purposefully misunderstand what socialism is.
The fallacy here is that the people "left to die" in a single payer system are somehow better off now (and that the VA is a single payer system; it's not). They already cannot afford care and it would only help more than it would hurt. Given the choice between substandard care and no care, I know what I choose.
>A basic economics course will show anyone why.
read this book, its an eye opener written by a former laissez-faire economist. Im not saying it will make you see the light, but at least it will show that comments like you just made are retarded, and coming from a place of ignorance on the subject. Economics as it stands today is ruled by people who directly benefit from the middle class destroying boom and bust cycles.
People set up public schools, police, medicare, etc.
What is your opinion of public schooling? Why is private schooling seen as better? What is your opinion on how police departments are run in our society? How about medicare? How about roads even?
The core issue here is that you don't seem to understand that governmental oversight adds a layer of cost and regulation that doesn't allow any one business to be as efficient as it can be. This results in lower pay, lower output and shittier service.
When you spread this out to everything, this results in a lower standard of life for those who live under it.
And while some captialist states have failed, it's true, all socailst states have either failed or are abject failures compared to their captialist counterparts.
Just FYI universal basic income means business make more money; it's not like those lazy 'parasites' just pile the money under the bed: they go spend it on all sorts of crap. Go be the guy selling them the crap and make a fortune.
This is the problem with endstate Capitalism: you've become lazy and complacent and do stop to think about how to make these ideas work FOR you. Go ahead, give everyone in Compton $800 a month for free: I'll go set up chains of food, beer, and clothes retailers and take every cent they are given.
the real difference is that you get to vote for it, and when it fails those in power wont let you vote for something else
So, retard OP. You realize that the USA already has socialist programs, right? Why don't you try to opt-out of those. See how well that works for you. Enjoy watching your house burn to the ground because you can't call the fire department. Enjoy getting robbed and not being able to call 911 because you didn't have the foresight to shop around for your own protective and investigative services.
Three words, you malodorous pervert: NET SOCIETAL GOOD.
That's why. God help you if you are unironically too stupid to get it.
Yaaaay communism. Retard.
go be a fag somewhere else. naziism is a left wing ideology.
youtube.com
i don't know why, but this reminded me of this movie i watched tonight. it's a tough thing to watch but it's pretty dope. it pushed my buttons.
Read anything by Thomas Sowell, he's a good introductory person on how economies work and how people operate when they are incentivised to do things within an economy.
Regardless of the pitfalls of captialism, you cannot deny that the average quality of life of a citizen is better under captialism rather then socialism. And thus, it's the better system.
the va is very much a government run healthcare system. you cant take private insurance in there with you. the government pays for everything in the va, from the mops to the drs
the same people who set up the government.
Social democracies are viewed as among the most successful countries in the world. Most of the free world is some form of a social democracy. Even the US has small parts leaning towards social democracy style government.
I dont think anyone here is arguing for Marxism, but for the tried and proven benefit of the social democracy.
What you're describing as social democracy is actually just a basic tax system. The key difference is that taxes pay out equal to what you pay in. Social democracy pays out greater to those who contribute less. That's the entire premise of redistribution of wealth.
Not everybody can do every job/not all jobs require equal skill. Even with education, some people just can't grasp certain concepts and would fail miserably at my job (and do all the time). You want the average joe designing radars on warships, or do you want to maintain a standard of intellect and compensate them higher for their skill? I'm gonna tell you, a great way to ensure talented, intelligent individuals go elsewhere is to pay them the same as an easier job.
I wasnt arguing for socialism though.
Regardless of the pitfalls of social democracies, you cannot deny that the average quality of life of a citizen is better under a social democracy rather then capitalism. And thus, it's the better system.
Then personally contribute. Pull someone out if debt. Feed the hungry. You feel like you didn't earn your paycheck, so redistribute your wealth. Nobody needs to hold a gun to your head to do what you think it's the right thing.
go shove your dildo down your throat til you choke and die. ill call 911 for cleanup after i shoot the robber.
as for the rest of your dribble that you spewed, you apparently have no clue the difference between the cops, (who by the way have no legal obligation to protect you as an individual) and a bureaucrat telling you that you cant see a dr because youre just not worth the expense
>What is your opinion of public schooling? Why is private schooling seen as better? What is your opinion on how police departments are run in our society? How about medicare? How about roads even?
I went to those private schools. I went to Hackley. I grew up as part of the '1%', Their better not because they are PRIVATE, but because the BEHAVIOR of the students is better. And the behavior of the studients is better because they come from higher class families, and understand BAD behavior (when done in the open) has REAL consequences, that if you act like an idiot thug, you will GROW UP to be an idiot thug. That has nothing to do with the cost, just opportunity.
why though? even social security is going under because instead of it being what it was meant to be, the politicians have made a right for illegals to suck on the tit of the taxpayers
Actually, in your post, you said:
>Yeah, but that mixed system...
Referring to the system that I proposed, which IS a minimally regulated system. "Well regulated" is a vague term anyway. I think a well regulated market is a minimally regulated one. Whatever is the very least we can get away with while keeping the economy moving ahead successfully.
How is it different from expensive healthcare for some? You still have people left to die without dignity, but now they aren't even seen for preventative care.
> What you're describing as social democracy is actually just a basic tax system.
no
> Social democracy pays out greater to those who contribute less.
no
>redistribution of wealth.
no
Id argue further with you, but your comments made it clear that you still think im talking about socialism, im not?
I cannot argue with you factually if you refuse to acknowledge what i am saying, and just set up a hurr durr socialism straw-man as what you think the argument is.
What you're arguing against is not something anyone is suggesting. My point is that you still do the work of one person, not the work of multiple people whose income adds up to yours. Do you think you could run an entire restaurant, the whole kitchen while simultaneously waiting tables just because you make more than all the people who normally do that combined? Of course not. Just as no one would want to equalize your pay and theirs.
There is already rationing of care
If you can afford it, you get it, else you dont. That is in effect a rationing system.
The problem is that people who contribute loads to the system still might not have enough money to pay for healthcare, since prices are so inflated under a monolithic free market system.
People go to Cuba for healthcare ffs... how is that not showing there is a problem?
in america right now, if you go to the er and need life saving treatment for say a stroke or heart attack, you are to be given that care, under a rationed system, they can deny you that treatment even in an emergency.
please please read my post eralier about how to make healthcare cheaper and better for all without the need to ration it out.
tort reform, allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines and reigning in big pharmas abilty to rape us on the cost of drugs
then make it only for citizens?
How is that not an easy fix?
It is a "single payer system", but the funding has been gutted over and over and its only available to a small portion of the population. It's not integrated into the existing infrastructure at all. You have to go to the VA to use it, and offices have been closing down like crazy over the last decade. It's hardly fair to use it as an example. It's like starving a dog and then saying "All dogs are weak, look at him!".
read this
try it once,
I'm not even sure WHY you're arguing. I've never said that an entirely unregulated free market is a good thing. All I said was that minimal regulations, which are designed to encourage competition, are not the "social democracy" that's being pushed by the left right now. If that's YOUR definition of social democracy, then fine. We can agree that's the way to go, and we'll just call it different things. But the social democracy proposed by Bernie or AOC is not anywhere close to that.
>Why should I do the work of five people just to watch four people get just as much as I do for doing nothing?
You won’t .
Typical cheerleader for the establishment status quo, just flat out fucking lying for your corporate overlords with no critical thinking applied .
Must really suck being you, faggot
You specifically said
>any one of those lesser paid individuals could do that job
They can't. Their value is lower.
OP I was about to type out a serious response for you but then I realized you’re a giant fag
the va is for veterans only to begin with so its not going to be "integrated". its part and parcel of going into the military. and why has it been gutted? its so that theres more money to go into other government programs for people who could work, but refuse to. the last estimation i saw for the cost of illegals in this country is upwards of 200 billion dollars, through foodstamps, medicare, education, and housing, yet our vets, who the government promosed to look after are homeless, and dying so that manuel can come here and leech off the taxpayers while working for cash under the table so he can send it back home to papi and abuela so that they can then pay a coyote to smuggle them across the border amd i to this country so they can get even more free shit. aided and abetted by liberlas who want even more people here from other cou tries so they can give them more free shit so that they can maintain power over the citizens
>you are to be given that care
Not necessarily. People are denied life saving care pretty often via "triage" as a loophole. Hospitals can make a profit and be the only game in town.
"Allowing big pharma to rape us on the cost of drugs"
Spoken like a true child with zero understanding of the world, but with a hand out crying gimme gimme gimme.
Pharma is a business, not slaves. They can make whatever they want, charge whatever they want, or simply close the factories and shut the doors tomorrow.
They are under no duty to provide any product to you, and likewise under no duty to make sure you can afford it.
This is a free society, and just because you want something does not mean someone else is under a duty to give it to you.
Lol, same.
Half typed a post outlying the clear benefits of socialism and the obvious downsides of unbridled capitalism- then remembered OP is a shit posting faggot who’s actually a liberal
Any civilisation that invented a cure for a disease; and then withholds that cure from mankind for their own profit, is by definition morally bankrupt
>i work so taneesha can spit out kids
You wanna live like taneesha, go ahead. The rules and laws apply to you too. If you want better, then you go to work and have a better life, along with the few drawbacks that go with it.
the establishment that you rail against want an eighty percent tax rate, "only on the tippy top". however history has proven that it wont stay just on them, they want a sixty percent on the rest of the workers. im not cheerleading, but you are being disingenuous in your argument.
oh wait, you dont even have an argument, your just mudslinging just like this faggot heremaybe you two fags should get together and peg one another while asking for more nigger cock
Triage is not a reason to deny someone care, it simply decides the order in which they receive it. If they die before they receive the care, that's not the same as being outright denied. Or are you implying that a hospitals have a top secret policy of killing people who can't pay?
then how to recover cost of the research and development of said cure?
You clearly still don't know what socialism is.
Why do so many retards fear socialism? Schools are 100% a socialist system. So is every branch of the military. Socialism has been a part of all of our lives and always will be. You conservative snowflakes are scared of something that already exists and will never go away.
obvious troll is obvious
i literally got to ask, why do you go to work to make 361 times less than the lazy a-hole who goes to parties, hob knobs with rich a-holes, and pays 0 dollars in taxes
Because you've got it completely wrong..
A basic income would not provide a lavish lifestyle. You would still have to work if you want anything more. And the basic income would be available to you as well.
The system works better than wellfare because with welfare you get, say, $1000 a month which is fucking nothing to live off of. Then if you work for less than that even they take it away. The system actually rewards not working, because for people to just get their foot in the door they'll be punished with less money.
With basic income they get to keep it, so there is an actual incentive to work. Any job they get will immediately improve their quality of life.
Bruv, when it comes to these things you should never use rhetoric. Don't just imagine scenarios.and principals and base your opinions on it. Go look into where basic income.has been tried and see what actually happens. People don't stop working and the economy improves.
Not to mention there is a potential for mass unemployment in a few decades. They're really just trying to get this system in place so it's ready for when you can't work.
Calm down, Senator Paul.
Because you get the basic income too you fruit. And the people who don't work get bare bones. It's not a way to live.
at some.point in time the cost is recouped and it should go down, not up
just look at what that faggot did with the epi pen, it used to be twenty bucks without any insurance, he bought it and jacked it up to over three grand, how is that responsible ownership. that had been around for decades before he was even born
>schools and military are socialist
I can't believe there are still idiots making this argument. They're public goods. You going to school doesn't affect my ability to go to school. The military defends both of us in equal measure. A sickly/irresponsible person running up an insane healthcare cost and expecting a healthy individual to split the bill DOES impact their ability to pay for their own care down the road.
and the schools are failing at their one fucking job. i wonder why we should fear socialism,
>it doesnt work
Like I said, the VA is a bad example. You're still pointing at the starving dog instead of using your head. It's been gutted because it's an easy target/it only serves veterans. We only care about Vets in the US when it serves us politically, then turn around and sequester the government positions/cut programs. A better example is Tricare, which works relatively well.
Stop trying to appeal to me about the vets, btw. Those 'poor veterans' had a lot of opportunity to get education and training while in (tuition assistance, Navy COOL, USMAP, etc.), but are homeless, jobless, and starving anyway. Most of the homeless ones were bottom of the barrel while they were in. A bunch got kicked out on general discharges or ADSEPed. I'm active duty and I volunteer helping these homeless vets, but I see it for what it is rather than what people spin it into.
Just because people are affected the same does not mean it is not a socialist system. If you think otherwise then you clearly do not know the definition of sosialism.
Not every school receives the same amount of funding, and not every state receives equal benefits from defense spending. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
I think policies applied to try to "fix" schooling like No Child Left Behind are more to blame than any socialist boogeyman.
How much do you think people on a UBI are going to receive, exactly?
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.
They get to decide who is more important and those homeless slobs that can't pay are usually the ones dying outside hospitals. There are stories about life saving care being outright denied petty often. Your argument that we have requirements toward lifesaving care now don't hold water, when it's obviously not the case.
Taxes, retard.
Right now that money goes into the pockets of singular billionaires who route it into offshore accounts where it ceases to be of any functional use for anyone else.
In a working global economy, there would be no safe haven for thieves
social security is going bankrupt. our infrstructure is crumbling, our schools are failing, our military is being outclassed now, our politicians are corrupt, and all you wannabe Che's want to hand more money and more power to corrupt, rich elites and thi k theyre gonna look after you. socialism is the true opiate of the masses, free shit=power for those who dole it out.
>But socialism requires everyone gets the same amount
That's communism, you mouth breather.
Actually, people being disproportionately affected, either positively or negatively, by the system is an absolute requirement for socialism. Go talk to an economist.
>citation please
Well, no, the corrupt rich elites are the problem. Every billionaire is a policy failure, after all.
A retards grasp of communism too
Not if there's some kind of system that determines how much you can pay and has you pay accordingly. Some kind of "graduated tax". Also, payment isn't distributed between you and I; it's distributed among the entire working population. You're not splitting any bill, you're contributing to a small portion of the budget with everybody else. There's an upper limit to how much you would pay.
Karl Marx said that socialism is just the first step to commu ism and that socialisms main goal is to set up the need for communism.
>fucking retard
Because you have conservative values. And conservatives should be enslaved.
Do a search, faggot. I've seen plenty of articles over the years. You should be able to find them if you're not retarded.
youre not aelcome here you horse toothed socialist, get off Yea Forums AOC.
or better yet
>tits or gtfo
how about a flat tax with no loopboles and a balanced federal budget?
Well, now you're just hurting my feelings.
your the fucker who comes up in here with an argument and no proof, its up to you to provide sources, im not doing your work you filthy socialist
Socialism isnt working well in europe faggot. Look at all the sand niggers that stormed europe especially germany and france. These fuckers even arsoned Notre Dame. Youtube is constantly banning video showing sand nigger in his kandura that was spreading fire @ the tower...
Are you part of the top 1%? Didn't think so. You never will be either, so why the fuck do you care about them?
That fake requirement was invented as a scare tactic by conservative snowflakes too afraid of change. There is nothing real about it.
i dont give a whit bout feelings, feels dont feed anyone
Well to be fair, I don't think schools should be funded at a federal level. I also don't think federal funding should go to state defense like police either. I think that should be handled by the state governments. Federal spending should be restricted to federal military operations only.
But my main point is, there's a huge difference between things like the military, and things like healthcare. Mainly because of how your usage affects mine.
But you're ok with doing the work of five people so that this country sending Isreal $30 billion+ per year so that THEY can provide free health care, free college and their version of welfare for THEIR people? Its funny how you "patriots" think.
did you read what that post was i. response too?
i dont think you did
Why is it the problem? They provide jobs for everyone. What, you're pissed they make more money than others?
Just because someone is being rewarded for being smarter or working harder than other people doesn't mean you're entitled to take some of it for yourself. And they are doing exactly that, by paying taxes. But even that isn't enough for you.
Quit bitching and get to work and earn your own way, you lazy nigger.
I did, and I asked you a question. Clearly it hit a nerve, sorry to point out that your dreams of joining the 1% is just never going to happen.
>So socialist fags. Why should I do the work of five people just to watch four people get just as much as I do for doing nothing?
Why do you do the work of 5 people? Why do you do it for shit pay?
Sounds like you're mad at the wrong people.
I seriously doubt you are European, because if you were you would know there are no socialist countries in Europe...
thats for a different argument user,
but to answer your question, no i dont think we should be expending either capital or blood on another country unless we have a direct benefit from it, helping europe out with thwir defense? sure, its a stop gap in case russia or a sand nigger country gets uppity, we can use thwm as a shield until we can respond.
Josh.
Your Ramens Ready!
The retards who think anything coming out of AOC's mouth will become law are the same ones who believe Trump will be re-elected in 2020.
Do insults?
I think that some federal cohesion is absolutely necessary in cases like education and defense. Our country already failed once with a weaker federal government under the articles of the confederation. We are the United States of America, after all, why weaken the unity further?
And I'm not sure what you mean by federal military operations. Do you mean the outbreak of formally declared wars? Should disaster funding be handled on a state-by-state basis? Invasions from foreign powers? I apologize if I come off as curt at all, I'm just not sure what you mean.
Socialism wasn't even a concept when Marx was around, he was talking about communism. Lenin popularised socialism.
Did you get dropped as a baby or something?
They're going bankrupt because the republicans keep stripping it to give to the ultra rich ya mook.
>until we can respond.
You mean, do nothing - have Europe do all of the fighting - and then show up for the victory parade once the war was over?
Sounds about right
>has you pay accordingly
Sure. Like this:
>Earn 10,000 a year, pay 3,000.
>Earn 1,000,000, pay 300,000.
>Earn 1,000,000,000, pay 300,000,000
Fair
Socialism works like this:
>Earn 10,000 a year, pay 3,000.
>Earn 1,000,000, pay 600,000.
>Earn 1,000,000,000, pay 900,000,000
Robbery.
>there's an upper limit
Not the point. If my money is paying for a service that I'm not using, and I have no choice in the matter, then it's just being stolen.
was never under the illusion i would be.
the user i was talking to had said that the top one percent doesnt pay their share, they pay nearly 80% of ALL federal tax revenue
democrat politicians have written more iou's to SS than republicans have
Havent you learned how to avoid paying tax yet? Work smarter not harder.
completely over your head user.
>If my money is paying for a service that I'm not using, and I have no choice in the matter, then it's just being stolen.
So, you only want to pay for the upkeep of the roads that you drive on?
So long interconnected road network allowing the transport of goods and services !
There are actually retards who think like this .....imagine being that retarded, insular, isolated and naval gazing
You clearly misunderstand how corrupt the system is.
Au Contrare
YFW it’s over YOUR head
>So, you only want to pay for the upkeep of the roads that you drive on?
Roads are paid for out of the tax on gasoline fuckface which are paid at the pump locally.
I think you're projecting a little too hard.
Admittedly, I'm not worried about the top 1%. I'm more worried about the top .001% or so.
>taxes
And pay for roads you don’t drive on...so THeFT
Brainlet faggot
I agree that SOME federal cohesion is necessary, but I'm not sure that's the area where it should be. I feel the same way that I do about the market. Give the power to the head honcho ONLY when it's absolutely necessary.
>invasions from foreign powers
Affect more than just the state in which they occur, so they would be considered federal at that point.
>disaster relief
Yeah, let the states handle it. California, a state that I live in, and love, is receiving immense amounts of money, and not doing the necessary infrastructure maintenance that is required. That's why we had the wildfires. The year before that, we could have had floods because of the poorly maintained dams. Really just got lucky on that one. Not saying it would have been better without funding, but the funding didn't prevent shit, even though it was supposed to.
That's not how it works jackass. You don't make 1,000,000,000 then magically owe 90%.. a marginal tax ratebod "70%" which was quoted would mean you would pay 70% on all you make *after* the 10,000,000.
You pay the same as everyone else on your first 40,000, then a higher rate on the NEXT 40, and so on and so on wherever in they put the tax brackets.
So aside from consistently getting this shit wrong, I don't think you people realise what an obscene amount of money 1,000,000,000 dollars a year is.
I make 10k a month and I can't even spend faster than I make money, and the happiness cap is around 70k, as in your quality of life does not improve much due to money after that point.
Even a million is a fuck tonne of money, but there's no issue having millionaires. A billion dollars a year is one hundred more million. Literally no one on Earth needs or deserves that kind of money, and yet they're out there.
They’re not retard.
The money you pay at pump is not earmarked for road upkeep. It goes into the general treasury
>pay for roads that I can drive on whenever I want
FTFY you fucking mong. I can't go get your medicine whenever I want, but I CAN go drive on your roads.
U r truly retarded...eurhanasia would apply and is appropiate in your case.
Glad I'm not on the same side as this dumb fuck, he doesnt even know how to use punctuation.
Another thing you raging fucking moron? Only apportioned taxes are constitutional and what you are suggesting is an unapportioned tax (don't even pretend you know what I'm talking about shit for brains narcissist, we have already established you are fucking stupid...
Why are you worried about them? They're not bothering you. No matter if you take their money away, there will always be that .001%
Maybe if you spent more time working and making money and less time worried about how others have more than you, you'd actually make money.
Hint: You cant make much money smoking weed and playing video games.
Yes, I know how marginal taxes work, it's called hyperbole. It's still disproportionate taxation, which is the EXACT thing this country rebelled against during its foundation.
>no one on earth needs or deserves that kind of money
And who the fuck are you? What makes you or anyone else fit to decide what I deserve? And what gives you the right to steal it from me once you make that decision?
See>The money you pay at pump is not earmarked for road upkeep. It goes into the general treasury
Prove it scumbag.
You’re making a strawman out of socialism. You already have a form of it that’ very close to Norways regulated market.
Everyone pays taxes, This money is pooled. The money covers needs that everyone in the society benefits from: Healthcare, Welfare, Roads, Safety inspections and regulation.
You’re probably paying the same income tax today as you would in a socialist country.If people arojnd you are healthyc Happy and not fearing for their life there tends to be less crime.
Inb4 Venezuela. That’s communism. Norway is a regulated market economy.
To be quite honest, I'd be happy with the head honcho (executive branch) having a bit less power. Bush and Obama made me feel like we're sliding back into this idea of the President acting like a king, I don't think they should continue wielding such expanded powers.
In the case of the invasion from a foreign power, would it necessarily affect more than the state? In a hypothetical case, Cuban soldiers invade Florida. Would Federal intervention be contingent on Cuban boots touching over the border of, say, Alabama?
And in your case of California's disaster funding, it seems more like the projects are being mismanaged. In this case, I'd say that the Federal government should play more of a role in stepping in and ensuring that those funds are allocated appropriately, rather than doling out money and leaving it at that.
Much the same way universal health care is there IF YOU NEED IT, but might not actually use it, huh?
So why are you arguing against it?
Look at the thief try to justify their theft as altruism...
Socialism is about democratic control of the means of production by workers, not about welfare programs in a capitalist economy.
>deserves that kind of money
Who the fuck died and made you the Arbiter of Morality?
But they are. Look at the Citizen's United Ruling equating money to free speech and billionaires like George Soros and Jeff Bezos. If you don't think they're not bothering you and me, you're either misinformed or lying to yourself.
And thank you for worrying about my job security and giving me advice, that's significantly more empathy than I would receive from those billionaires.
>Why should I do the work of five people just to watch four people get just as much as I do for doing nothing?
I'm not saying this is true, but suppose unemployed people turn to crime, or starve and get sick and cause epidemics, so it would literally be cheaper to maintain them.
Disregard my answer if you're willing to shoot them all.
>Trump will be re-elected in 2020.
So you think America is going to vote themselves into poverty by electing a democrat? Not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you buddy?
You prove it faggot.
There is only one circumstance where your version of reality is correct,
In that version of reality of direct tax, the money spent on road upkeep would be EXACTLY THE SAME figure as the tax levied.
Show me the money faggot. Yours is the burden of proof
Either you've never read any theory written by solialists or you're a low effort troll. Fuck off. You're no comrade.
You don't think there are people doing 1/1000 the work you do and getting paid 50 times what you make, yet have the same qualifications as you as it is?
>why should i work so hard just to have my work given to someone esle
You mean, the work you perform being valued under market value, in order to be resold by your capitalist owners for their profit, having done nothing to earn it?
Why are you mad at scenario A, and not at scenario B?
Oh, because you’re a brainlet faggot
Wait, are you Javert? It was just a loaf of bread.
Are you saying you'd be better for the position, or that inaction somehow equates to not taking a position on moral matters?
The same people you are voting into office are the ones who okayed these PAC's. The same people who you hired are putting the justices in place for the rest of their lives.
But no, if we tax rich people enough, or put limits as to how much money they can make, that will suddenly get rid of powerful people - a concept that has been around since before we came out of the trees. Yes, in your AOC Utopia everyone will be equal and nobody will be big meanies and every tranny will be asked what their pronouns are and nobody will ever bully anyone again.
You're a ridiculous person and nobody will ever take you seriously.
Fist of all scumbag the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim you pompous fucking twit. (pic related)
Secondly
> Where Does Your Gas Tax Go?
The only revenue source for road and bridge improvements is the Motor Fuel Tax (MFT), commonly referred to as the gas tax.
The federal gas tax hasn’t been raised since 1993. Motor Fuel Tax (MFT) revenue and fees are calculated based on gallons sold, which means as the price of gas goes up and down the MFT remains constant. Regardless of whether or not you are paying $20.00 per gallon or $4.00 per gallon, the Road Fund is receiving the same amount of funding from the MFT. Combined state and federal gas taxes equals approximately 37.4 cents per gallon. This includes state (19 cents) and federal (18.4 cents), as well as associated fees. In addition to motor fuel taxes, residents pay a combination of local and state sales tax when they purchase a gallon of gas. Sales taxes are based on the purchase price so as gas prices increase, sales tax revenues also increase. Chicago residents pay sales taxes that go to the city, the county, the Regional Transportation Authority (RTA) and the State at a combined sales tax rate of 10.25 percent. The Department of Transportation's Conditions and Performance report estimates all levels of government would need to spend $105 billion per year to maintain and improve the condition of roads and bridges. New or increased revenue sources are vital to fund our nation’s and state’s
Oh, fine. That hypothetical you invented sounds bad.
I guess we should just allow unfettered capitalist to own us then and do nothing.
>right wing retards thinking
Tl dr
Yeah I get it you know everything in the world but are too lazy to read anything I guess knowledge just diffuses into your brain huh? You pick up electrical signals in the fillings in your teeth?
Cuckoo...
I don't vote for candidates who accept money from shady PACs, and I didn't hire anybody to put justices in place for the rest of their lives? There will always be a top earner, or a top .0001% or whatever number, I just don't feel comfortable with them having more wealth than a small country.
And you are very right, more societal change is needed than changing taxation policies or our perspectives on egalitarianism. To equate fiscal change with overarching societal change would be fallacious - it'd be important, but not a silver bullet solution.
It's okay, you can think of me however you'd like. I won't stop fighting for what I believe will lead to a better future for you and everybody else. It's like you said, nothing gets down just by smoking weed and playing video games - let us agree to work passionately to build our better futures!
It is easier for Amerifags to imagine themselves in a post-societal Mad Max style future than it is for them to imagine themselves living under a ‘slightly different” economic model.
Gee, I wonder why the idea of taking money off thieves is so unpopular with the thieves stealing money?
And you'll do what exactly?
Bring 'em down a peg? Get rid of all powerful people? What exactly are you suggesting people do to make things more equal?
>You prove it faggot.
you see this?
and then this?
I did what was asked even though the burden of proof wasn't on me and then you say the proof is to long to bother with reading. Holy fuck the level of stupidity is fucking frightening.
Socialism is just a concept for lazy people who know they'll never achieve anything, if you want something earn it.
How is this even a discussion.
Kek
Wrong again, disgusted. I'm not surprised all commies are dumb as fuck.
>if you want something, earn it
Billionaires haven’t earned it either.
You will never make a billion
Kek
>Why should I do the work of five people just to watch four people get just as much as I do for doing nothing?
That's not what socialism is. Read a book, then come back.
>Socialism
>USA
Pick one
As opposed to now, where five people work their asses off so that one dude can take all of the profits of their hard work.
Funny how your retarded brain works
Socialist policies and capitalism are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to provide a safety net for society and still reward innovation, merit and success.
Fuck these assholes I have no prolem with equality of opportunity that is fair, but these lazy freeloaders want equality of OUTCOME, which means that those who do well should not be rewarded for doing well and then conversely failures should be rewarded as well as those who bust their asses to get ahead. Everything should be equal no matter how stupid and or lazy you are. Fuck that. Only 8 percent of the country thinks like these assholes, but because 100% of twitter is these 8%, they THINK they have broad support because, as I have have stated previously, commies are fucking stupid.
So , at what point in the upper tax bracket does the % tax change from “sound republican fiscal policy” to “communist socialism”?
Is it an extra 1%, 5%, 10%?
Where’s the “all of a sudden it’s communism!!!” % lie?
This is my new Porsche! If you work really hard all year I might be able to get a new one next year.
This uneducated white nigger has no idea how single payer works, just as his ideas of the VA and England’s health system come from fucking comments off the Fox News board. These types are worthless swine and should be treated accordingly
>lazy freeloaders want equality of OUTCOME
I think being a trust-fund-baby multi-millionaire never-done-a-days-work-in-their-life inherited daddies money are the lazy ones , faggot.
If hard work equals monetary reward, then show me a rich donkey
What kind of person steals other peoples thoughts?
A socialist.
Why so mad?
Kek
What kind of person steals the fruits of other people labor?
Capitalists
You have clearly never taken a course in economics outside of high school, otherwise you wouldn’t be regurgitating old right wing comment board bullshit. Go take even two actual Econ courses on a university level, you dumb white nigger; you’ll find they don’t espouse your quasi laisezz faire libertarian bullshit
It's intellectually dishonest, in this instance, and completely counterproductive to a rational discussion. If you argue with emotion, rather than fact, maybe you should stop arguing and let more rational individuals handle the decisions.
If you proposed a more reasonable, likely scenario, and then said it's ludicrously high, we could possibly come up with numbers that might appease everyone. By using hyperbole, you've shown that either no number would be reasonable to you, or you don't understand the taxes required for such a program.
>then show me a rich donkey
I can show you a rich farmer you stupid fucking idiot, no one is fooled by you snarky condescension or hyperbole. You aren't the smartest person in the room here, narcissist, go the fuck away.
No one is calling for equality of outcome. People are calling for a slightly more equal outcome. I hardly think allowing people to be able to live a somewhat comfortable life off a full time job is the same as everyone making mid 6 figures job.
There is no reason any executive should be compensated over 1000 times what thier lowest payed employees make. If you make $10m a year that next million dollars doesn't really improve your quality of life. If you make $28k a year the next $2k you make makes a huge difference in quality of life.
Well glad we could agree on something. The executive branch certainly needs to be reigned in.
No, but there are externalities to a Cuban invasion of Florida. They could inhibit free travel of American citizens through Florida, stop locals from paying federal taxes, etc. It also would most likely be considered an act of war, so definitely a federal issue at that point.
As for the California issue, I'd say I don't trust the federal government to do that type of control. That we can maybe just agree to disagree on.
You already do that. You’re clearly uneducated trash
I'm not, why do you think you know things you can't possibly know? It's quite pathetic.
>steals thoughts
probably sounded better in your head huh
The roads are there, if I WANT to use them. I can't use universal healthcare at my own discretion. It needs to be approved by a doctor, who has to use guidelines set by the government. The government can't make a law that I can't use certain roads. See the difference?
>I don't vote for candidates who accept money from shady PACs
And that's why they never get elected or chosen. I'm sure the world seems like it's going to be a big bernie kumbayah, but the reality of the situation is that money purchases influence and has since we've been keeping records.
It's not going to require societal changes. It's going to require basic species changes. Even if you win, there's ALWAYS a more powerful person. There's always a leader. Chickens have a pecking order. Apes have the big brutish leader. Wolves have an alpha male. And humans have all of these. Or even if they're not strong enough to, a couple of the weaker guys said "hey, we want to get in on this" so they used money as power instead.
There isn't going to be a socialist utopia. it's been tried, and it keeps failing over and over and over. Whats the saying? Insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result? Even the chinks have embraced capitalism as an economic model. Although they're still embracing that socialist mindset in their day to day. And it's really useful that they do - nothing gets rid of chinky chinamen spammers on MMO's faster than typing "tiennamen square 1989 protest" and suddenly you see them all drop because of the great firewall of china. In any case, you loons have been whining about socialism since the 50's. And really the only difference between those that read Marx and those who read Ayn Rand is that most college students that Rand tend to grow out of their stupid ideology before they leave school, while marxists tend to stay idiots their whole life.
>not mad
You seem mad tho
Why so mad?
Kek
As you post that tired ass boomer meme that equates funding a government social safety net is going to make us all commies. A safety net the old farts are all happy to use including socialized healthcare under Medicare. They just don't want to pay and would rather fuck thier kids and grandkids over while they enjoy the last vestiges of socialism in the USA. FYIGM
Ambulance costs $600 dollars but only if you actually go to the hospital. Otherwise it costs nothing to get checked out by the emts.
I run my own business, and trust me, because I know the world is full of assholes if I need help I hire one of my friends to help me and I pay them. You just want free money like you get from mommy forever and you see the government with all that money and you think gimme gimme gimme, why should I have to work? So you justify theft through mental gymnastics and explain it using buzzwords you heard other, more polished losers spew retardedly.
>The government can't make a law that I can't use certain road
Yeah they can
It's not dishonest at all. Did you miss the part about disproportionate taxation? If I pay 20% taxes, and everyone else pays 10%, the only fair solution is that I receive twice the representation by the government. That leads to a plutocracy. Not exactly a socialist utopia.
>you pay your buddies
You pay them less than the value of their labor, or you’d be losing money to hire them.
I suspect you do not own a business, considering you have the business acumen of a Yea Forums shit poster
Not where I live m8
What state are you in?
Funny how you only care about fairness in this hypothetical imaginary future you invented in your head where socialism has taken over,
And care nothing about the unfairness currently in the existence system that actually exists and affects your life
Not public roads. Perhaps a select few that are designated for specific purposes. Still not an apples to apples comparison. I can go drive on 99% of roads whenever I feel like it. I can't go get 99% of any medical drugs I feel like taking.
>No one is calling for equality of outcome.
Bullshit you dumbfucks can't stand the thought of the corporate ladder you want to be paid to sit on your asses playing video games or watching videos or posting on social media. You have convinced yourselves you are all geniuses I watch the fucking threads here, and because you have convinced your self you are the smartest people in the world you also believe you shouldn't have to start off with nothing like every other generation before you. You look areound see older people with more money and don't think how can I achieve that? No no no you immediately start complaining about the unfairness of it all. Dave Thomas the founder of Wendy's died a billionaire and he was fucking adopted at three by some old woman in Indiana.
Retarded newfags need to lurk moar
I own my own business and I pay my employees based on their production and after my costs of setting them up in trucks is covered if they are working out I give then ownership stake in the buisness. Turns out fairly compensating people and giving them skin in the game makes them work harder and are better to our customers.
Of a traffic cop stands in front of your vehicle and directs you to a different road, you have no choice but to obey.
I understand how highly you think of your opinion, but I'm not your mommy and I don't give a fuck what you think, dork.
Communist
All this groundwork for such pitiful presence. Patience is the horn that is honked dry, friend.
Oh, I care about it. I just don't think that handing over rights to the federal government will solve any of those issues. I think it'll only cause more. Typical liberal attitude though, call me "uncaring". At least I'm not in favor of robbing people for being successful.
No you dense motherfucker, people are calling for workers to be able to live off a full time job. If that means that Bob Iger gets $20m a year instead of $66m a year so the guy picking up trash at a Marvel set can afford to put food on the table and live where he works so what.
Boomer. That is a word with a real meaning, but like everything in your lazy fucking life it's easier to phone it in a repeat a forced meme than think of some both true and original.
>you guys are all retards
>I’m the only smart one
>not recognising every group thinks this about every other opposing group
Truth is, you’re all fucking retarded.
Yey for equality
Still not apples to apples. I don't have to go to the police and get permission to drive on every single road. I do have to go to a doctor and get permission to use any medical service that isn't OTC.
itt: bootlickers
Nope. Im a Mutualist. Works great for me. Made 6 figures last year and you know what? So did my oldest employees. They are out fixing shit like I am. So in a company of 5 we have 3 making 6 figures (we keep what we kill and help each other out). 2 more making about $60k as they pay off thier costs and are on trial.
Being a greedy asshole is a choice. Just one that is sold to us as the only choice in the US
I agree with you on the executive branch and agreeing to disagree on California, but what it comes down to with the Florida invasion hypothetical is that the relationship the average American has with states within the United States is too closely interlinked to phase out the Federal Government more than we have. I completely agree that such an invasion should be met with a full federal response, regardless of it being constrained to the Floridian territory or not!
But they do - AOC, Omar, Tlaib... We're seeing the dam cracking, and I'd much rather continue to see those cracks expand than give up halfway!
Of course there's always going to be a more powerful person, I'd just rather they not have the wealth of a small country or something egregious like that. And heck, maybe it won't be a utopia, but at least it will lead to a better way of life.
I'm thinking of the Nordic countries as potential inspirations - Capitalism absolutely has not been phased out there, it's just not quite the same as it is in the United States.
I don't want Capitalism to entirely go away, it's been extremely good to my family and me! I just don't want to continue feeding its more egregious excesses.
Now imagine if the government came in and taxed your ass so hard that you couldn't offer your employees that level of pay anymore. Imagine they force you to subsidize those greedy assholes so their employees make the same as yours. That's socialism.
No like my old fart parents on Medicare and collecting SS but vote however that millionaire Tucker Carlson who is paid by Koch billionaires tell them to vote. They don't even realize that the people that are robbing us blind they have never met and will never meet as they have insulated themselves so far from the US plebes. Fucking stupid.
>robbing people for being successful
Even if those “successful people” rob taxes from their operating countries by offshore loopholes.
The money in their offshore accounts is, by the spirit of the law - if not by the letter of the law (because those laws are unduly influenced by those stealing the taxes) -
You’re fine with the rich stealing from the poor... but not the poor stealing from the rich.
Ok hypocrite
>Of course there's always going to be a more powerful person, I'd just rather they not have the wealth of a small country
You keep saying this. Why? Do you think this is something that most people would agree with?
No you don’t you fuckin retard.
You could buy private medical insurance and see your own doctor if you don’t want those restrictions.
First of all tell me what I pay them? Since you seem to know. What school did you get your MBA in? You are saying the product I produce is worth less that the labor to produce it right? Are you a fucking moron? What you just described was a method of bankruptcy. His labor is worth more than what is being produced jesus fucking christ. I don't care if you believe me one iota it doesn't alter the fact that I'm sitting in a 200,000 dollar house my fiancee and I bought in January, or the fact I drive a Volvo. You doubt does not (thank god) impact my life at all. There is a real reason I fucking hate freeloaders like you. You are just full of bullshit and hot air. that's why you want free shit. Bullshit and hot air are what soy boys like you produce in copious amounts.
That's not how stock ownership works you dumbass. We are a S Corp and all taxes flow to the shareholders personal returns on a schedule K1. They are shareholders.
And I would be glad to shit can our expensive ass insurance and pay more taxes for universal health care because be it would be a net savings compared to the $5k+ a month we pay out of pocket for it now.
>You’re fine with the rich stealing from the poor... but not the poor stealing from the rich.
/thread
I am 95% sure I make more than you - and that my job is harder to automate. When you get replaced by a robot, do you want to starve to death or go on basic? I'll be happy to have some of my and the robot's productivity keep you starving to death if you admit the basic soundness of the principle.
Why the FUCK haven't you joined this server yet?
discordapp.com\invite\6H9PzSX
[-q8q
Economic incentives aren't real because people play Minecraft for free and that's actually an argument socialists make.
Never said I was okay with tax loopholes. I'm entirely for closing every single tax loophole. That's the best part about insanely high tax rates, it encourages people to weasel out of paying ANY taxes. Go ahead and jack it up to 100%, they will still pay $0.00.
Close tax loopholes, flat tax rate, everybody wins.
Yes. Do you think most people would disagree with it?
>greedy assholes
Corporate tax evasion
Strange how the accusations of greed is punched downwards, to those exploited by the current system, and not upwards, to those exploiting the current system
that's communism, socialism just wants people to be treated equally in the government, like a true democracy and no way to avoid taxes and less taxes for the poor and slowly ramping up the rich.
You're just guessing at what socialism is, aren't you?
Yet this cuck probably still holds up Venezuela as an example of socialism, instead of say Norway, Sweden, France, the United Kingdom, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, or one of the 10x as many working examples.
Not to mention subsidizing drug costs.
That is what I do in a free market system, but having the government butting in would jack up my rates substantially. That's the exact reason United States healthcare costs are so staggeringly high. And you're proposing we make it worse on those who would go for privatized healthcare.
>You are saying the product I produce is worth less that the labor to produce it right?
I actually said the exact opposite, you gormless fucking retard.
How hilarious
>attempts at preventing this from happening are band-aid solutions applied to a broken system.
Government in general is a bandaid on the state of nature
>primates have a strong hierarchy, with primarily alpha males being allowed to mate
This is only true for some species.
>this is highly evident in human dna, where it shows, on average, only 20% of males breeding in the not too distant past.
Not trying to argue this just genuinely interested in a source
>capitalism, especially the rampant out of control capitalism you see in the united states, is the result of sinister people using humans natural competitive, primate behavior patterns for the benefit of the few
Capitalism is a method of decentralized control. You get paid for doing things people want done but that you don't want to do. That's why everyone hates their jobs, no one is going to pay you for work you'd do for free. American capitalism suffers from excessive market concentration (individual corporations are so large they can set market prices rather than having to sell at the price the market decides) this is unfortunate and needs to be fixed but all governments and economic systems are at risk of failure and markets are highly efficient at some things and should not be unused.
No, no, I was referring to the same greedy assholes you were. The rich bosses who don't want to pair their workers a fair wage. I'm saying you'd have to subsidize them so their workers get paid.
200,000 house? That's not even a studio condo where I live. Protip: If you're gonna talk down to people, make sure you're actually better than them
pay their workers*
No. We’d have eaten the rich by then.
Yes, certainly. Super wealthy people don’t put money under their mattress. It’s held in banks, assets, invested, and builds massive infrastructural wealth. Millions of Americans are employed by the top 1%. Just saying that someone “has the wealth of a small country” doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t matter. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean the system needs change.
>>No you dense motherfucker, people are calling for workers to be able to live off a full time job
You don't mean live you mean "live in a fashion I am accostomed to". there is a big difference, you want to live like you are wealthy without putting in the work to get wealthy. If I was TOLD how much work it would take to get a small business that can almost eek out 100,000 a year would actually be I wouldn't have done it. Only looking backwards now do I think what the fuck was I thinking? But I did do it, and it worked, and I realize there are only a handful of countries IN THE WORLD I could have worked my way out of a Salvation Army homeless shelter in Olympia Washington to a 200,000 thousand dollar house in upstate NY and I will die in the streets before I let some smartassed commie punk motherfuckers destroy it.
Well, then that's another area we agree on, even if we don't agree on what it means.
Civil dialogue on Yea Forums... I don't like it. Call me a faggot already.
I know right?
I consider myself a Silicon Valley wage slave, and I just took on a mortgage for 1.2mil.
What a Fucking bumpkin
Not we need a bracketed tax rate. But probably only 3 brackets. Those brackets probably shouldn't kick in until at least the high 6 figures, maybe the low 7 figures. Highest bracket should kick in at maybe $10m.
The kicker here is that capital gains taxes needs to follow those brackets rates too because most high wealth individuals make thier money from ownership.
BTW I am for eliminating all corporate taxes except on retained earnings because ultimately all taxes are paid at the consumer level.
PUT THE BITE ON THE SONOFABITCH
I know, I get it you are just smarter richer and better looking...a power lifter who fights MMA professionally and only dates supermodels and I will forever live in your shadow a weak meek looser. Go outside and take a picture of your big beautiful place I want to see it.
>I consider myself a Silicon Valley wage slave, and I just took on a mortgage for 1.2mil.
Like I said to that nposter you fucking pussy can't even direct you comment ot me. Go take a picture of your 1.2 million dollar home I want to see it and then a picture ogf the mortgage proving it's yours' I said I BOUGHT a fucking house you loser, not that I MORTGAGED one.
Not really, though. Offshore accounts alone provide great ways for billionaires to avoid paying taxes. I think the problem is that you're conflating the top .0001% or so with the 1% - there are 540 billionaires in the United States, far short of coming to even .1% of the population of ~330 million. The top 1% are far more equitable, in my experiences. (Which are admittedly anecdotal!)
I don't want to do that, or contribute to the idea that political discussions have to be hostile. Thank you for talking to me, user! It was a pleasant experience, and I hope you have a good day.
See, I just can't jive with that. Why is the line okay to draw there? Why NOT 99% of anything above 1 mil? Even IF that arbitrary placement of the line would work, why give the government that control, if it would also work without it?
Ok sure.
You got a deal
Right after you take a picture of yourself, standing outside your business, with you proof of ownership and a timestamp while I seeing a sharpie in your pooper
>give the government that control
Why give billionaires that control?
Oh come on. On Yea Forums, hostility is how we show affection.
Quite fair enough, you... jabroni!
Suck a bunch of aidsy nigger dicks you commie fuck.
Why give them control of their own money? Really?
>80%
Keep sucking your corporate overlords' cocks. It doesn't make you right, or smart
Because they can afford to be taxed more. The government is for the people and therefore it is a value judgement we as a society need to make. And a 90% top tax rate isn't going to be that much of a disincentive to work anyway. Making 100k per million earned is still fat fucking cash. It's not like a CEO can work 6 months out of the year and say peace I'm out because I owe taxes.
A progressive tax supports mobility. But as I said the brackets should not even exist until you get into truly high incomes.
NO U! ROODY POO!
In case you haven't been paying attention they are one and the same
You want to compare healthcare but you don't even have a clue what you are trying compete against. Take your own advice faggot.
Suck a dick!
Suck a dick EVERYBODY!
Oh goodness! You jerks!!
Taxation is the cost of living in a functioning society. Police, fire, an educated workforce, roads, research, military defense all cost money. If you spend every dime you make just getting by you can afford less taxes then Mr. Caviar Bentley Boxseats.
>value judgement we as a society need to make
Well, there we can agree again. It is certainly a discussion of morals. I just don't think it's moral to disproportionately tax someone just because "they can take it".
You misspelled OP
>their own money
It’s your tax money they have put into their own offshore accounts you ducking brainlet.
Would you let a nigger stick his hand in your pocket and take 20% and then thank him for it, and jump to his defence when the government police showed up to take it from him ?
I think you would you retarded shit eater
Taxation is the cost of governmental representation. At least that's what I thought we kicked England's ass over. That cost should be proportional. In other words, if I pay 20%, and you pay 10%, I should get double the representation. Blah blah plutocracy. I said it earlier in the thread