Does Yea Forums believe in God?

no

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

this Yea Forums person does not. there are no needs for gods.

>"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Holy shit! What a bunch of nonsense.

If there is no God there is no such thing as Evil.

Get a grip trope minder.

sounds like we have an apatheist here. Lol.

I do.

>this Yea Forums person does not. there are no needs for gods.

Why not?

>evil: profoundly immoral and wicked.
Just because there's no god, doesn't mean there isn't evil in the world. Forget the bible, go read a dictionary.

Yes, there is no objective morality. What if there is a God though? Still applies.

I do not believe in anything that I would call a god, no.

I believe in moot

>Just because there's no god, doesn't mean there isn't evil in the world. Forget the bible, go read a dictionary.

Really? A word in a dictionary doesn't justify it.

Evil exist therefore there is no God begs the question. What would be your measure of profound evil? And who's opinion should I trust?

Mine or yours or someone else's?

yes, but i used to be just as skeptical and nonconformist as you all are.
I understand every point you have to make, i understand the doubt, the disbelief, the "lack of proof" everything. but im here to say that ive been shown the truth through studying, learning, and having an open mind. Now the existence of God is completely undeniable to me and I am reassured of Gods existence every day through everything. It is so obvious that God is real guys, a simple way to see it is noticing how everything mainstream is anti God. If you see things through those eyes, why would so many people in EVERY way go through such lengths disprove Gods existence and go through such effort to try and turn you away from God at every turn? Its just so obvious that everyone any everything wouldnt be trying that hard to disprove something that doesnt exist. We dont spend billions of dollars trying to disprove the existence of aliens or bigfoot or unicorns because they arent real and theres no point. But there is something very powerful trying to turn you away from God every single day and all that effort is the smallest and simplest evidence that there is indeed something more going on here.

Not that user, but objective morality wouldn't exist whether there was a god or not. God's morality would still just be an opinion.

>Yes, there is no objective morality. What if there is a God though? Still applies.

More nonsense. There is no objective morality without God.

i dont understand people believing in god, are they 4 yo and also believe in santa ?

>We dont spend billions of dollars trying to disprove the existence of aliens or bigfoot or unicorns because they arent real and theres no point
Because there aren't literally billions of people who believe in those things and do shit like kill people in the name of them.

There is no objective morality with God.

I believe in Brenton.

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>then why call him God?
you obviously dont know what god is if you think he is a powerful being in the sky that intervenes in everyones life and makes decisions.
Christianity 101 is that God is the creator of all life, not the ruler of all life, we are given free will to live however we please and rule our own world however we please, humans are evil, humans cause suffering and pain, not God. God doesnt intervene because that is his gift to us, to be the dictators of our own lives.

>God's morality would still just be an opinion

I suppose it would.... but it would be the opinion that all others are measured against -- known as the standard.

Nobody is actively trying to disprove God because it can't be done. You're making the positive claim that there is one, we're saying no. You prove it.

>it would be the opinion that all others are measured against
Says who?

>There is no objective morality with God.
Really? Ok. Let's start torturing kids in my front yard for fun.

There is no objective morality period. Killing is wrong? Why? Why is humanity existing objectively a good thing?

If you try then I'll stop you, because subjective morality exists even though objective morality doesn't.

Only when I feel like it. So to answer your question, no.

>Says who?

Ok. Try it. Do whatever you want. You could even put Jews in concentration camps and cook them up. Let's see how far you get.

Still wouldn't be objectively wrong or bad.

>Try it.
I already do, and I've gotten this far.

but absolutely all mainstream media and movies and music ARE indeed trying to turn you away from God. Its evident in almost everything if you have an open mind to see and actually know what is said in the bible. Not to disprove, but to lead you into a path of self destruction, All sin leads to pain and suffering eventually through many different ways, nothing is black and white. but truly following Jesus' teachings leads to a happy and fulfilled life, not every one who claims they are a christan follows the teachings of the Lord, but those that do know the power of it and thats why its such a tangible thing to real believers because there is plenty of evidence in each and every believers life that they dont need to be "Proved" or "disproven"

>Killing is wrong? Why? Why is humanity existing objectively a good thing?

With no God, you are just space snot on a space rock. Killing is just blowing your nose.

With God, you are just space snot on a space rock. Killing is just blowing your nose.

The whole God thing is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

Here’s the straight truth

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>Still wouldn't be objectively wrong or bad.

Try it. Let's see.

Yep

>muh desert fairy tales

Yes

People have. There is nothing intrinsic to reality which prevents it.

>I already do, and I've gotten this far.

Cool. Maybe it will work out for you. Doubt it.

Dylann Roof

Are you this dense? Yes, we all essentially agree that killing is wrong. There are laws. Those are subjective, not objective.

I mean, it already has worked out.

anyone who kills in the name of Jesus christ or in the name of the christian God is not following what is written in any way, shape, or form
Jesus calls us to love our enemies, and do good to those who want to hurt you
The false prophet muhammed was a man and that is why he calls violence on non believers and others who dont follow islam
almost every time violence is mentioned in relation to "christianity" it was almost 100% of the time referring to the catholic church which is a completely different religion than christianity in almost every way

>The whole God thing is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

Oh. So why is humanity existing a good thing?

Get thee hence, baldy!

Yes. Ur dubs confirmed it also.

>intrinsic to reality
Define intrinsic to reality.

Life seems a million times more simple without religion tbh.

We are simple carbon based lifeforms on a planet named after dirt. In the grand scheme of the universe, our species is nothing special or notable.

>There are laws. Those are subjective, not objective.

Really? So why is it wrong to have a different opinion?

That's just your interpretation. People can and do pick out Bible verses to support killing in the name of Christianity.

This

It isn't objectively. Subjectively we say it is because we are humans.

Imagine you and one other person, isolated, thousands of miles away from any other living human. You kill the other person. Are you punished? Does anything happen?

A natural, essential property. Electromagnetism is intrinsic to reality.

If God knew every decision you would ever make in your life before you were formed in your mothers womb, how do you have free will? I'll wait.

>That's just your interpretation. People can and do pick out Bible verses to support killing in the name of Christianity.

I suppose so. Some interpretation are better than others. Do you have a rational mind?

It isn't, but the fact that you even think objective morality is an opinion or up for debate pretty much proves you wrong. You're right! Why bother?

What standard to you use to determine if one interpretation is better than another, and how is that standard not arbitrary?

Uhhh because he’s God. Are you okay?

Right on brother

There can be no free will in a purely material universe, yet you experience the feeling of free will all day, every day, through the same senses that caused you to believe the universe was entirely material. Not a Christian, just sayin'.

yes, but i used to be just as skeptical and nonconformist as you all are.
I understand every point you have to make, i understand the doubt, the disbelief, the "lack of proof" everything. but im here to say that ive been shown the truth through studying, learning, and having an open mind. Now the existence of a flat Earth is completely undeniable to me and I am reassured of the flat Earth's existence every day through everything. It is so obvious that the Earth is flat guys, a simple way to see it is noticing how everything mainstream is anti flat Earth. If you see things through those eyes, why would so many people in EVERY way go through such lengths disprove the flat Earth's existence and go through such effort to try and turn you away from flat Earth at every turn? Its just so obvious that everyone any everything wouldnt be trying that hard to disprove something that doesnt exist. We dont spend billions of dollars trying to disprove the existence of aliens or bigfoot or unicorns because they arent real and theres no point. But there is something very powerful trying to turn you away from the flat Earth every single day and all that effort is the smallest and simplest evidence that there is indeed something more going on here.

>It isn't objectively. Subjectively we say it is because we are humans.

I see. Just as valuable as rocks I suppose? Based on your logic? Or according to rocks?
So humans have the right to devalue other humans that are not like them? If not, why not?

>you experience the feeling of free will all day, every day
Do you?

That doesn't make any sense, pretty par for the course though.

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>Does anything happen?

So because there is a punishment that makes it wrong?

Yes. I'm choosing to Like you right now.

No, there's just nothing objective that makes it wrong.

>A natural, essential property. Electromagnetism is intrinsic to reality.

I see. So its something you can test? You can't test morality?

Humans are more valuable to humans than rocks. Rocks are not capable of thought and thus don't have an opinion on the matter. Humans don't have intrinsic rights, which we can show by the fact that there are still people being enslaved to this very day. Rights are a concept that we invent and enforce ourselves.

Prove that you could ever have done otherwise.

Just like cherrypicking articles and research to support fake scientific claims. Ex. MSG

>What standard to you use to determine if one interpretation is better than another, and how is that standard not arbitrary?

Rationality. Is rationality arbitrary? If you think so, it's probably why you are walking around confused about everything.

Are there contradictions in the Bible?

It's more like you can test morality and we find that there's nothing intrinsic to reality to enforce it. Electromagnetism will work whether you want it to or not, but there's nothing fundamentally stopping you from killing people.

How do you use rationality to determine which interpretation is better than another?

Rationality can't grasp those things, user. Otherwise we wouldn't need politics.

>No, there's just nothing objective that makes it wrong.

Have you ever read Crime and Punishment? I'd say not.

Do you believe in Santa? How about the Tooth Fairy?

It's a little late in the Enlightenment for that kind of laziness, don't you think, user?

Fully rational people come to different conclusions all the time. Are you peak rationality? Or is everything subjective?

Did God write that one, or was it a fallible human?

>but there's nothing fundamentally stopping you from killing people

I see. So anything that is metaphysical isn't real? Like morality, Logic, truth, etc?

not an argument

because knowing dosen't mean he is intervening in some one life, plus i belive he hoping that people do they best in life

>Otherwise we wouldn't need politics.

I see so we need politics to determine what is right and wrong?

How did you reach that conclusion from what I said?

Me too

>Fully rational people come to different conclusions all the time.

Sure they do. Some have better reason than others. No one is perfectly rational.

So you are saying that truth is arbitrary?

>Or is everything subjective?
Would it be true that everything is subjective?

>someone else's?
The golden rule.

Treat all men as brothers. Do unto then as you would have them do unto you.

If you do something to someone you would not want done to you?
You are evil.

See easy stuff this morality.

Rational people don't agree on it, so yes, apparently. In the absence of divine revelation.

❌

What if I'm an extreme masochist and would have people torture me? Does that mean I can go around and torture people?

>not an argument
It would be if you have read Crime and Punishment.

That story tells you what happens to someone who gets away with murder.

Crime and Punishment is a work of fiction. Name dropping it is not an argument.

>How did you reach that conclusion from what I said?

It's not a conclusion. It's a question.

It's still subjective. Next argument?

That ain't even real

>If you do something to someone you would not want done to you?

Why not?

does god believe in Yea Forums

Very well, how does that question follow from what I said?

>Name dropping it is not an argument.
Haha

I suppose you got me. Wrongdoing doesn't matter as long as you aren't caught. I'm glad I don't know you.

If you were a masochist you would like being tortured but not torturing others.

That would be a sadist.

As long as sadists and masochists keep to themselves and consent? I reserve opinions.

>Wrongdoing doesn't matter as long as you aren't caught
I did not say this.
>I'm glad I don't know you.
Ditto.

Evil.

I don't believe in either good or free will.
But as long as i feel free i can accept that.

If you are honest you do. Where did everything start?

Wrongdoing matters because collectively society and humanity have decided that it matters. God didn't, a book of bronze age fairy tales didn't, people did. Simple!

>It's still subjective. Next argument?

I gotcha. So it was OK for the Nazi's to kill Jews? And it was OK to punish the Nazis after the war?

Just two separate opinions?

I agree about the consent part, but the point is that a general rule of thumb like the golden rule is only that: a general rule of thumb. It doesn't hold up to all cases.

In the beggining, God created Heaven and the Earth

Fuck that strawman up!

I saw him throw thunder like a family guy cartoon a year ago

Hell yeah. His name's Zeus.

Where did god come from

Fuck off boy lover his names Odin

In the beginning God.

According to our opinion, no, it was not okay for the Nazi's to kill Jews.

Why?

Another retard. It is written but love ye your enemies.

Before you were?
I am!

Alpha, Omega..

God just always was and is.

Why why?

>Electromagnetism will work whether you want it to or not,

So morality, logic, and truth don't fit into this right. Thus my question.

>I did not say this
Say again so I can understand.

Morality disappears if humans do, truth and logic don't.

>Evil.
Define evil.

Logic and truth do though. Logic will work whether you want it to or not. True things are true whether you want them to be or not. Morality is subjective.

Not an answer, if god exists as everything with no origin where did the heanen and earth come from

>God didn't, a book of bronze age fairy tales didn't, people did

Really? Why do you bother doing what people tell you?

What is there to understand? At no point have I said that wrongdoing doesn't matter as long as you aren't caught.

If there are consequences to your actions then it's not FREE will. By saying "behave this way, or be tortured" you removed all free will. It is coercion. No freedom.

>you have free speech
>but if you say things outside these specific rules we put you in prison for eternity and torture you

Im with Cartman, FUCKING HIPPIES

>Why why?
Can things exist without explanation?

>According to our opinion, no, it was not okay for the Nazi's to kill Jews.

So why does our opinion matter more than the Nazis?

God

yes i invented myself so you can start worshiping me

Our opinion matters more to us because it's ours.

That's how living in a society works.

Malice aforethought.
Doing things to others you would not want done to yourself.

It doesn't. Can you really only win against strawmen arguments?

Yes and often they do.

>Morality disappears if humans do, truth and logic don't
Good one. So morality is only for humans? Why is that?

Theres definitely some skyrim like force/entity thing out there though

Not him but the concept of "morality" requires a species that is self aware.

To be more clear, I don't mean "can things exist that are currently unexplained", I mean "can things exist that can never be explained?"

So basically ernergy/matter conversion ie physics, I think thats called the big bang, or is that a godbotherer euphormism for divine ejaculation like zeus and the milky way?

>At no point have I said that wrongdoing doesn't matter as long as you aren't caught.

Ok. So when does wrongdoing not matter?

to believe in god, you simply need faith. without faith you won't believe. it's as simple as that.

>That's how living in a society works.
Cool. So it was ok to enslave black people?

>Malice aforethought.
Define Malice.

Does God believe in/b/?

I haven't said that there is an instance where wrongdoing does not matter. I say that morality is subjective, not that it doesn't matter.

>It doesn't.
So why would we punish Nazi's for killing Jews?

Which god/gods? If I do, for a God to give you free will, he can't be all knowing and if the universe cannot have come into existence without a creator, why is it possible that such a creator needs no creator himself?

Ill intent.
Now get you some google you are being willfully ignorant.

The tricky thing is that "simply" part. If you don't have faith, how are you supposed to get it?

The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.

>but those that do know the power of it and thats why its such a tangible thing to real believers because there is plenty of evidence in each and every believers life that they dont need to be "Proved" or "disproven
Like what?

>black people
>ignores every race has been enslaved at some point
Just KYS idiot. And yes, it was okay. The bible literally says you can enslave people.

>"morality" requires a species that is self aware.
So that we are self-aware is why there is morality?

Why is this?

I don't believe in a biblical god, but there is a source for our consciousness that will never die.

There is a god and he gives knowledge to the Jews in order to torture and rape the goyim for all eternity.

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>I haven't said that there is an instance where wrongdoing does not matter. I say that morality is subjective, not that it doesn't matter.

I see. So why does it matter if it is subjective? Does it only matter to some people and not others?

Yup.

I'll give you a like if you like mine. Hell, if I get 5 likes, I'll like every post until thread 404's.

You're dumber than a stump. Cya retard.

>Ill intent.
Why is ill intent bad or evil or malicious?

Lets just completely overlook all the passages where god legit says to kill people (mainly nonbelievers) and its okay to take slaves and rape people in the book supposedly guided by gods own words but yea dude god is just super good and doesnt willfully torture people for all of time.

>So why does it matter if it is subjective?
It matters in the sense that any truth matters.
>Does it only matter to some people and not others?
Some people do seem to have a hard time with the fact that morality is subjective rather than objective, yes.

No. I haven't seen any compelling evidence for the existence of God. I don't judge people for their belief though.

Because only a species that is aware of right and wrong can have morality. Animals acting on only instinct can never have morality. Which is all animals.

>Just KYS idiot. And yes, it was okay.
Why is it not OK now?

We can leave the Bible out of it if you don't mind. If you had rather argue that, I'd be more than happy to.

>You're dumber than a stump.
At least I don't beg the question.

Not him, but that's debatable. There are other social animals that appear to have morality.

Amen.

yeah lets just ignore the fact that you didn't cite a single passage in the bible were it says any of that.

>It matters in the sense that any truth matters
Is Truth subjective?

>Some people do seem to have a hard time with the fact that morality is subjective rather than objective, yes

So those who think that it doesn't matter or is subjective can violate it at will?

I know this is going to be impossible for you to understand (btw not the guy you were originally arguing with), but morality is a system of values. Which ebbs and flows over time. The choice is, do you subscribe to a higher power for your morality or do you follow "current year" trends to define your morality?
>leave the bible out
The bible is an important part of modern morality.

>Is Truth subjective?
No.
>So those who think that it doesn't matter or is subjective can violate it at will?
I did not say that, no.

>aware of right and wrong can have morality

Agreed animals cannot have morality.

Where does this right and wrong come from? If it exists. From our conscious?

Nigga you obviously havent read exodus

Exodus 21.
Exodus 21

1
"These are the laws you are to set before them:
2
"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.
3
If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him.
4
If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5
"But if the servant declares, `I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,'
6
then his master must take him before the judges. [1] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
7
"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.
8
If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, [2] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her.
now i can site more verse consider exodus has many rules for owning slaves and the numerous other verses where they permit rape and murder.
Read your fucking Bible faggot

They have, what we perceive, as morality. But they have no sense of self. Which means their morality is limited to their own survival. Show me any animal which will sacrifice itself to propagate the species long term. There are none outside humans.

Because you would not like it if others did it to you.

As I explained after "Malice Aforethought".

Go read the post again the answer was there all along.

>Which ebbs and flows over time.
I see. But it's not better or worse... just different, right?

>The bible is an important part of modern morality.
Sure. One argument at a time.

From a multitude of places depending on the group. It can come from religion. Upbringing. History. "Logic" (aka gay marriage etc). The reasoning differs by group or person. It's why Muslims think it's okay to stone women to death or kill gays. And why liberals think trannies are completely normal and should be accepted as is. Morality is a sliding scale over time. The reference point of each person/group is the main deciding factor.

>But they have no sense of self.
Some do. They will recognize the reflection in a mirror is them rather than another animal for instance.
>Show me any animal which will sacrifice itself to propagate the species long term.
Chimpanzees.

>>It matters in the sense that any truth matters
>>Is Truth subjective?
>No.

Ponder your train of thought there.

>>So those who think that it doesn't matter or is subjective can violate it at will?
>I did not say that, no.

Seems you agree with me that morality is not subjective.

>Ponder your train of thought there.
Okay.
>Seems you agree with me that morality is not subjective.
How did you reach that conclusion?

Correct it's different depending on your current viewpoints. Women not being allowed to vote was moral because they couldn't own property. Because they weren't expected to go to war. A completely rational moral judgment. But today, they (by some) should be given the same rights. Morals are just principals that change as the landscape changes. You are either bullied into new ways of thinking of morality, or bullied into old ways. But at the end of the day, Humans are the only species that can contemplate and rationalize these things.

who is "him"?

why is it a he?

why would god be one of 2 sexes? of what species is God, in which he is of the male type of that species?

the word God as westerners use it, with the implied masculinity, is literally just a patriarchal image of a supreme male king. What a ridiculously myopic view to hold in {{ current year }}

Fortunately not, since if I did I'd be too inhibited to enjoy the finer things in life, most of which are pretty simple. Like getting enough sleep to completely feel the difference when the weather takes a sweet turn, responding to beautiful music with dreams too beautiful to convey, the serenity of knowing that in solitude my thoughts may take whatever flight they will, and it is entirely up to me whether to allow someone else to know what they are.

God killed them it does not say he put them in hell.
We are meant to be with God not here on Earth.
We all die and must die.

It is NOT ok to take slaves.

Read the book don't just believe the lies.
Hebrew slavery was more like apprenticeship.
It lasted only 7 years and after the slave was given a golden ring. They could wear the ring in their ear and continue on in their slavery or leave with an earring that would buy them a house and land.

And most of those God destroyed were trying to harm the Hebrew race and thus prevent messiah from ever being born.

They were celled gheber and were offspring of nephilum (See Genesis 6:4).

People torture people.
God just generally kills them. Although the story of Job gives some validity to God being a dick.

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>Because you would not like it if others did it to you.

Who care what you like. Why is what you like important?

>As I explained after "Malice Aforethought".

Let me see if I got this right:
Evil is Malice Aforethought which is ill intent which is Malice Aforethought.

Did I get that correct?

recognition of self isn't that same as sense of self. Birds don't process "me". Or their place in the world. Chimpanzees absolutely do not do that. Show my any long term evidence. A mother sacrificing herself for her child is nowhere near the same as soldiers fighting for people they don't know. Or pushing a child out of the way of a car to sacrifice yourself. Stop being stupid.

It's a good thing that nobody cares about what Christians think

>Hebrew slavery was more like apprenticeship.
Only if you were another male Hebrew. Women and foreigners were chattel, and a convenient trick to snag even male Hebrews is to give them a wife (who is your slave) while they are your slave. If they want to keep their wife, they have to remain your slave.

Same with gravity, but you can't see it the same as with God. If you don't believe me just go and jump off a tall building to see if it's real or not.

Since you want to talk evidence, how about you back up these bold claims that you are making?

No you are being willfully ignorant again.
Read the first post which I linked.

>The reference point of each person/group is the main deciding factor.

I see. So it is equally OK for Muslims to stone gays as it is for southern planters to enslave blacks? It's fine, right? It just depends on time and location, right?

what does this even mean then?

"I believe there is a god..."
Please define the word god, in your context.

Further, why believe in [your definition of god] at all, if there is zero basis, zero evidence, zero intervention ?

I do.

True, but this whole thread has turned into ignorant rants. I'm out.

> I don't believe in god, but I remain a member of a retarded cult that continually denies and covers up sex crimes against young children

What bold claims? Show me any evidence that animals have a sense of greater good. Any. There are millions of examples of humans doing this. Contemplating your place in the world and having morality goes hand in hand with acting for the greater good. An no, retard, that doesn't mean everyone does every time. But animals have no sense of self. Basic cognitive recognition is not sense of self. Go be dumb somewhere else.

You: Morality matters is the same way truth matter. Truth is objective.

Except i have read the bible. thats why i know its a terrible book that permits rape,murder and slavery. I also love how you conveniently left out the loophole to keep the hebrew slaves forever. Also how you left out the rules for slaves that werent hebrew which can be kept forever. Its also funny how your book you swear is the word of god is filled to the brim with contradictions. its almost like it was written by dirt people who stole many of its ideals from the "pagan" religions before it. The antidote to Christianity is actually reading the bible with open eyes. But keep doing all them mental gymnastics to prove to yourself the book is not a total piece of poorly written garbage

Pretty much. Morality is all about justification. Is it okay to kill baby Hitler? What if Hitler killing jews and gays made the world better (if he wasn't stopped). Morality is defined by perspective. And justification. But it can only be done by species with sense or self and right and wrong. How those groups choose to JUSTIFY it is a different debate.

>Any
Chimpanzees sacrificing themselves to save their neighbors.

Not what I said. You asked "so why does it matter if it is subjective" and I answered "It matters in the sense that any truth matters." In other words, it would be an objective truth that morality is subjective. That truth would matter like any other truth. It could be objectively true that someone's favorite flavor of ice cream is chocolate, but their taste in ice cream would still be subjective.

>No you are being willfully ignorant again.

Please correct me on my interpretation. Your post that you reference doesn't.

>Evil is Malice Aforethought which is ill intent which is Malice Aforethought.

Read the story where the Hebrew slave takes only spotted goats and sheep with him and decides not to marry the offered daughter, He left with more livestock then his master started with prior to the seven years LOL..

Rightly divide the word of God.

This means YOU must read it line after line verse after verse to understand who is being spoken of, why, and for what reason.

It is also worth owning a proper dictionary of biblical words like Strong's Concordance as otherwise you may foolishly believe that unicorns were spoken of in the Bible instead of young rams.

You're thinking of the Catholics, but yeah pretty much.

No. Religious claims don't hold up to scrutiny.

That in no way contradicts what I said.

Yes, and you're going to be punished, alot.

You made up your mind before you ever read it.
I try at least to understand and follow it.
It limits ME not you.

>Pretty much. Morality is all about justification.

What is your standard or justification?

>made the world better
Better for who? Nazis or Jews or gays?

>Morality is defined by perspective. And justification

So from my perspective, I think it's fun to torture small children? Am I wrong?

>sense or self and right and wrong.
You still haven't told me how we know what is right and wrong.

Except i was a Christian for many years. but once again you make assumptions

>Not what I said. You asked "so why does it matter if it is subjective" and I answered "It matters in the sense that any truth matters." In other words, it would be an objective truth that morality is subjective. That truth would matter like any other truth. It could be objectively true that someone's favorite flavor of ice cream is chocolate, but their taste in ice cream would still be subjective.

I follow you now.

So it's ok if I think its fun to torture small children? It's just my taste?

perhaps

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Here is the post again.
>Malice aforethought.
>Doing things to others you would not want done to yourself.

I have spoken in this thread several times about the golden rule and I paraphrased it there to define evil at your request.

Evil is Malice aforethought and defying the golden rule.

How much more simple would you like it said?

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Yep and all thpse dumb black americans should thank the jews and christians for their ancestors apprenticeships in cotton and tobacco picking

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It's okay in the sense that I don't think you should be punished simply for thinking it. I am against thought crime.

>...humans cause suffering and pain, not God.

False. If God created the mechanics of existence, made humanity subject to those mechanics, then it is God and only God who caused suffering and pain.

No it was not meant to directly contradict you.

Certainly when read incorrectly the Bible does appear to say foolish things and contradict itself.

Even the New Testament which for the most part was written by Paul can easily be misunderstood in modern terms.

Again a Strong's Concordance can give you meanings of words that might otherwise confuse you in modern speech.

For example the Bible leads one on the surface to believe that a Rich man can not get into Heaven. After all a Camel could not pass through the eye of a needle!

Unless the eye of a needle was not what we think. and instead was the small night gate through which one entered Jerusalem at night time and had to unload your camel in order for it to fit under the gate. Difficult and hard work but not impossible.

And yet the foolish traditions of the church continue to teach how impossible it is to love god and be wealthy. (unless of course you ARE the church.)

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Thats a whole lot of mental gymnastics to go thru
when you can just say the obvious. your god condones slavery

In this instance I'm not concerned about the Bible being foolish or contradictory, I'm concerned about its morality. As far as whether the Bible is true or not, I don't reject it because of contradictions, I reject it because I have no reason to accept it.

>It's okay in the sense that I don't think you should be punished simply for thinking it. I am against thought crime.

I gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood. I would agree.

I made no assumptions at all.
I did not declare you to be or not to be a christian.
Perhaps the "too wide brush" is yours?

except you did you assume i went into reading the bible to disprove it. which is further from the case. hence an assumption.

Pretty sinilar to Genghis Khans coloured tent system

Just horseshit. Spooky text dictates your life. You can't fathom the immensity of the universe, and one species of talking monkeys figured it out before the invention of modern science. Cults, nothing more my guy

surround a city and raise a white tent. If the people inside the city did not surrender by the end of the day, he put up the red tent, which meant that all men of fighting age would die. Allow another day to pass and Genghis would raise the black tent, telling the city that all living things were to be killed

Pretty brutal.
Yes lord i will just let you take my town and rape and enslave everyone

God condoned a lot of thing we might consider distasteful.

Life eats life to survive.
Greed as need is inbred in all living things
I personally feel that is evil.
But luckily I am not God.

He needs to explain himself to you, not me.

I cab only tell you what I believe and why.

I believe what Christ alone taught in the highest of authority, I worship God because Christ said I should and was willing to die for what he taught. I am not a Hebrew I could not have sacrificed animals to God as I would have seen it as blood thirsty and cruel.

But again I am not God nor did I live in a time when slavery was considered good.

I expect one gay to have a lot of questions for God. But until them I will struggle to follow the golden rule. To teach it. And never to dare to enforce it upon another.

You said it. I did not assume it.

Quote where he said it.

...

Nowhere in there does he say that he went into reading the Bible to disprove it.

Then why worship a quite obvious evil,murderous,vain creature who will literally torture you if all you did was have the courage to say that a book is not enough evidence to prove his existence. i pity you man. truly i do. you have to make excuses for god to come to even a semblance of understanding of why he did and condone all the horrible things he has. You have to make up terms that make literally no sense to cover for him. You follow like a blind sheep instead of just taking it at face value. You god is a monster and so far no evidence has ever been provided to prove without a shadow of a doubt he is real. You just gotta have faith, The literal worst method of finding truth. I hope you wise up someday and realize you were lied to and move on from this death cult

>The antidote to Christianity is actually reading the bible with open eyes.

>antidote

You find in the Bible that which you seek.

What? Are you retarded?
So if we we're ordering pizza and I know that you like cheese and then expected you to order extra cheese and you did, does that mean you had no free will to not ask for extra cheese?

>What if you got it wrong?
Cool. I can get it wrong sometimes, but an omniscient God by definition can't. Hence, he knows everything you'll ever do.

Care to justify that assertion?

>Doing things to others you would not want done to yourself.

So this is EVIL?

So it would be evil to punish someone for killing someone, after all, you wouldn't want to be punished, would you?

Exactly. also like how he ignored the entirety of the points in that post too
Which is what happen when i read the bible to discover gods truth, i read the whole thing cover to cover and couldnt wrap my head around how this "god" that i was told all my life was good, just and moral, could condone rape,murder and slavery. so i did what you've been doing this entire fucking thread and started making excuses for a supposed omnipotent being then one day i couldnt fucking make logic out of it and took it for what it was. LAWS OF HOW TO OWN SLAVES AND MURDER PEOPLE. That isnt moral my friend and if god condones that shit he aint moral either

If there is a god may he give me dubs right now

>Rationality is not arbitrary. There is only one rationale. Mine and it is the only correct one. And if you think not, you're ummmm.. fucking stupid.
Open a dictionary and read what rationality means.
If one can interpret and understand the Bible on rationale, they would have all reached the same conclusion, but we have over a gazillion different cults and beliefs in Christianity and they all have different interpretations.

Well guess I'll continue to not believe

Would depend who did the execution now wouldn't it?

If it was the victims friends it would be evil.
Family or City Elders?

Again you have to rightly divide that word of God. Or you may get it wrong.

PROTIP Mankind almost always gets it wrong.

there is a main problem in there though. Your god is omnipotent also and good and just. But lets child rapists rape, lets people murder. God being omniscent literally means you have no free will cause everything is already set in stone the moment he came into being. All your choices were made the moment he existed

No Because liberals exist. What kind of god would allow that?

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Morality is only subjective because humans aren't omniscient.

>Open a dictionary and read what rationality means.

I'm fully aware of what it means. No one can use rationality perfect. If everyone had perfect rationality then there would only be one interpretation.

Just as an example. Just now, I have proven that I can practice logic better than you.

Morality would be subjective even if we were omniscient.

You read it wrong.
I tried to explain this and you called it mental gymnastics. The obvious part is that you read it not seeking gods truth. That probably started the down hill roll. I mean I read it seeking truth. I am not God so I don't want that much truth. Some times it is better not to know what some one else thinks of you.

Delete the word not please.

>Again you have to rightly divide that word of God. Or you may get it wrong.
>PROTIP Mankind almost always gets it wrong.

I suppose you aren't the guy who made the original argument? The guy that used

>Doing things to others you would not want done to yourself.

as an argument to show that morality is subjective?

its called mental gymnastics cause your jumping thru hoops so you dont have to face the truth that god is a obvious evil being. And you did it again making assumptions of my purpose of reading the bible. Pulling out that good ol' not a true scotmans fallacy. Saying i didnt read the bible correctly so thus i dont know what the fuck im talking about. No man i just essentially took the bible for what it was after doing what you are doing now for years, a whole lotta nonsense

You are good.
You almost have yourself convinced you are right.
But not me.

Of course he doesnt

Just ignore my points and stay on the "righteous path" good sir you obviously know more than I!
Keep making excuses for something that you have no proof it exists. Your logic is sound

>there is a main problem in there though. Your god is omnipotent also and good and just. But lets child rapists rape, lets people murder.
I was just explaining what omniscient means.
But in Cheistianity there is hell, judgement day, and all. No one is entitled for God to personally intervene. That's something up to God.

>God being omniscent literally means you have no free will cause everything is already set in stone the moment he came into being. All your choices were made the moment he existed
No, it doesn't. It's like saying programmers know exactly what their machine learning algorithm will exactly end up with because they closed it up. That's not always, if not never, the case.
Programmers don't know exactly what will happen because they are missing some information about the state of the variables at any given moment. Now what if they knew everything about these values and what their algorithm is learning at any given moment? They'd be able to predict exactly how the machine will end up like. Does that mean that the algorithm was forced to learn and evolve the way it did? No, you dumb fuck.

Programmers arent Omniscent though. If god literally knows everything that is going to happen it goes against free will plain and simple my dude.God created people knowing full well everything in advance. It's all part of gods plan

I did not ignore your points you dismissed my replies as mental gymnastics.

You reap what you sow.

In that case you won't mind when people put words in your mouth using unjustified assertions.

because your replies were mental gymnastics aimed to make apologetics for god. obviously i didnt dismissed your replies since ya know i replied to them.

Not at all I am used to you and your ilk.

>I'm fully aware of what it means. No one can use rationality perfect. If everyone had perfect rationality then there would only be one interpretation.
Sure doesn't seem like you do. Rationality is being based on and with accordance to reason and logic.
I can start with any set of reasons for anything and reach a different conclusions with logic.
Your definition of perfect rationality is everyone agreeing on the same reasons which is very subjective. One can easily put forth numerous reasons for anything, even those that defy what you take for granted.

>>God being omniscent literally means you have no free will cause everything is already set in stone the moment he came into being. All your choices were made the moment he existed

I would say it goes more like this:
There are many paths time will traverse. Cause. Effect. Freewill. God knows all these paths. Humans have the freewill to choose any of the paths before them.

My 2 cents.

You would be ilk.

>so i combat that by making assertions too thus making me a hypocrite

You're the one who has been using intellectually dishonest tactics.

Not even a little.

How? We'd know what is good for all of us in every specific situation. Morality is all about distinguishing good and bad behavior. Highly situational, but we'd have a case for every single scenario if we are truly all-knowing.

>Sure doesn't seem like you do. Rationality is being based on and with accordance to reason and logic.
>I can start with any set of reasons for anything and reach a different conclusions with logic.
>Your definition of perfect rationality is everyone agreeing on the same reasons which is very subjective. One can easily put forth numerous reasons for anything, even those that defy what you take for granted.

So you contend that reason and logic are subjective?

Demonstrably so. You put words into people's mouths and when called out on it insist that those words are implied based on an assumption that you apparently will not justify.

See the issue again with that is god know everything he knows what path you will take regardless of the choices laid before you. He knew Eve would eat the apple, He knew people would commit atrocities in his name, he knew people would disobey him, he knew jesus would die on the cross. But yet he let it happen. He created us to punish us. Kinda vindictive if you ask me. Free will flies out the window when god controls everything

>How
Because whatever methodology you use for determining what is "good" is fundamentally arbitrary. It's like how you would not be able to get people to agree on what the best movie was even if we all knew everything.

Not even once.
Link?

>Link?
Certainly.

>See the issue again with that is god know everything he knows what path you will take regardless of the choices laid before you. He knew Eve would eat the apple, He knew people would commit atrocities in his name, he knew people would disobey him, he knew jesus would die on the cross. But yet he let it happen. He created us to punish us. Kinda vindictive if you ask me. Free will flies out the window when god controls everything

I'd say yes God knows the path you will take, but allow you to take it.

>He created us to punish us. Kinda vindictive if you ask me.

I don't think so. He created us to love.

Ugh dude you must be trolling.
You have twice now said i went into the bible for the wrong reason/to prove something i have already proven to myself before reading the bible.
Thus you made a unjustifiable assertion and put words in my mouth when my post did not justify any points you made

So he allows the child rapist to rape a child...Aight

I used to believe in god.

>be me
>believe in god
>wake up
>fuckthatwasadumbdream.gif

>Programmers arent Omniscent though.
It's not whether programmers are omniscient or not, it's whether their program was forced to take that path. No, it wasn't. If we ran the same program again, we'd end up with something else, maybe just slightly different, but it's not the same.
> If god literally knows everything that is going to happen it goes against free will plain and simple my dude.God created people knowing full well everything in advance. It's all part of gods plan
Okay, take this reply for example. God knows what I'll be sending, but I wasn't forced in anyway. The chain of events that lead to this present were well known, but not forced upon us. If they were, then we don't have freewill. God didn't force me to type this, but he knows I will. Simple.
How is that so hard of a concept to understand? Knowledge of what's gonna happen does not make you devoid of free will.

>So he allows the child rapist to rape a child...Aight
He does. What's wrong with raping a child any way?

>Several of those are not my posts.
Which?
>And none of those put words in any others mouth or make unsubstantiated claims about others.
Of course they do.
>He said he mage up his mind about the bible and decided it was an antidote.
He did not say that he made up his mind before he even read it.
>He made up his mind before reading it.
See, here you go, putting words into his mouth. He never said that.

Logic is not. Reasons can and are always. It's justification for an argument. An argument can be anything you shit out of your ass.

but he created you and allowed you to live knowing full well you would make this post. Thus you made the choice before you were even alive. he knew this eons ago because he is OMNISCENT
You are the guys claiming he is omniscent and omnipotent. not me.

oh boy watch that edge

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Fuck ill bite its not whether or not whats wrong its that god has deem it wrong but chooses to let it happen so that he can just punish the rapist later in hell. but he lets the innocent child still get rape thus causing a massive moral contradiction that god himself has set.

making assertions still. i corrected your claim and you still put words in my mouth

>Logic is not. Reasons can and are always.

You're simply making a semantic argument. I use the term Reason and Logic as a systematically connected method which means to reason logically. You use the term "reasons" as an arbitrary explanation of cause and effect that may or may not be logical.

If one reasons the meanings within the Bible logically with perfection then they would have the perfect interpretation. Humans cannot reason with logic perfectly, therefore, there are many interpretations of the Bible.

Amazing how I reason better than you. (Logic is the standard of my reasoning.)

Not my fault you are presumed to be the liar you actually are.

also ignore the fact i wrestled with what i read for years and then came to the conclusion that its total garbage. I still went to church for years and talked to scholars and my family. i wanted to believe but just couldnt anymore. You're assertion is that you are making it seem that i read it and instantly came to the conclusion i have now. Which is false and i told was false but still fucking putting words in my mouth

>what he literally said involves coming to a conclusion after reading it
>I'm going to claim that what he actually meant was that he came to a conclusion beforehand
Putting words in his mouth.
>And I don't give a fuck if that is an assumption it is the obvious one.
Not an argument, and I would say that it is outright false. There are people who wish that they could believe the Bible but simply cannot, even after reading the Bible.

What is the point of him hoping people will do good when he knows a lot won't?

good job on deleting your post moron

Woah, where has he lied?

>Because whatever methodology you use for determining what is "good" is fundamentally arbitrary.
Just look at the consequences of every single action. If we know everything, we'd know what bad an action would do or not. So if an action is good for someone, but it causes harm for others, then you are taking away good from them. That will result with a net bad. So the action is wrong. If the action causes a net good for everyone and maybe a little bit bad here and there, it is still good. All about intentions and consequences.
>It's like how you would not be able to get people to agree on what the best movie was even if we all knew everything.
Good != best
Not an argument.