Does Jesus's death make sense when you really think about it...

It symbolizes God's ability to not be bound by the laws of nature. Recurring theme, you could also look at how the youngest brother (Jacob, Joseph, etc) was chosen over the older, who would have normally taken the birth rights. Also plays into Greek mythology, since when he died he conquered Hades and"paraded" him.

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Jew god couldn't give salvation away for free.

>why did he have to die for sins?

Christianfag here

in Jewis law in order for sin to be forgiven the blood of a lamb just be spilled for sacrifice. That's a over simplification but it's the jiss of it

Now Jesus was the perfect lamb of God and when he died for our sins it was a perfect sacrifice. Unlike the flawed lamb. Again a gross simplification

You don't understand SIN?!?
You are what's wrong with this cuck liberal generation

Abrahamic religions suck ass.

It's pretty fucking simple.
Remember the tree in the garden?
Adams original sin of defiant curiosity went into all the unborn little men in his nutsack, and all the unborn little men in their nutsacks, and all the unborn little men in their nutsacks, and all the unborn little men in their nutsacks, all the way to the unborn you, in your unborn fathers nutsack, and that sin is the feeling you now call "curiosity".

but i mean, how is that a bad thing? There was a tree, of knowledge. Who wouldn't go for that? The talking snake thing, yeah, bit of a deterrant- but Is it some metaphor for the dangers of knowledge or curiosity? I just cant see how this is even punishable

It would be totally unfair that many were never born to be placed in hell and that we just so happened to have been born.

and one more thing, if a dude eats a fuckin apple or even kills a guy how in any manner does that atrocity carry onto his progeny? why would i be at fault for my dad being a curious piece of shit

Why did voldemort only 7 horcrux? Gotta love those fantasy novels like the Bible.

Think if you were held hostage and your captor had you locked in the basement. Next to your feet was a key to the lock. But you don’t use it because your captor said he would be very angry if you did.

That’s why.

Ignorance is Holy Innocence.

Jesus's sacrifice and death makes even less sense than the Adam and Eve story, but I suppose that they're both connected.

Christianity was a means to make people submissive. It celebrated servants and was a rule book on how to be a good servant. It also served as a scare tactic for those who didn’t want to serve.

watch jordan peterson you're wrong

it's a good story and that is all it is a story

hmm it says something about him being a bad carpenter and incompetence being a sin

quads of falsehood

Whoa, christly quads brah.
So uh basically the less you know the more innocent you are? Why would god want a bunch of inexperienced jerkoffs at the helm of his creation? Our brains are literally hard wired to recognize patterns, observe, analyze. Why would engaging in the act of analysis end up offending god?

Im really trying to process this, is it the concept of being content in unknowing is honorable?

feel like thats bretty reductionist bro but youre not really wrong. I just think thats like saying the practice of meditation was made for bored faggots who wanna sit around all the time. Im pretty sure theres a bit more to it.

I believe the whole point of the story was when Jesus asked for God’s forgiveness on behalf of the people.

God used Jesus knowing that he would ask this on the crucifix.

Is it possible that it was folklore that had no motive but was just continually passed down?

Millions of unborn men live inside your nutsack, and millions of unborn men live inside theirs, and millions of unborn men live inside theirs, and millions of unborn men live inside theirs, and millions of unborn men live inside theirs, and millions of unborn men live inside theirs, and millions of unborn men live inside theirs, and so the entirety of humanity was alive inside Adams nutsack to be infected with this Sin you fucking hominculus!

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Nope because meditation celebrates mindfulness not servitude.

The entire story was plagiarised fiction. He didn't exist.

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It absolutely started that way and as an explanation for the world. But that’s ancient religion and Christianity adapted it to rule over people after seeing how these religions were accepted by the masses

you didnt explain anything, dude.

Knowledge corrupts innocence.

Are you saying that god, according to the story, originally intended to send us to hell but jesus persuaded him not to?

well, thats definitely true. I hope my point wasn't lost though, I still think that to anyone with enough of an IQ to look passed the dark ages indoctrination acts that the metaphoric imagery painted in many scenes of the bible is pretty relevant and valuable to any scholarly minded individual.

Added point, it is a very simplified history of religion and has evolved over the years. But it is not a mistake to say it was intended to control people. The content of the Bible and it’s early history lays it out pretty plainly.

Don’t forget the Pope was once the highest position of power in the world

It wouldn't just be you, but the millions and millions of people who live inside your nuts that are also affected by your actions!

No he sent Jesus to the cross knowing Jesus would save us. It’s part of that all-knowing aspect of his power

Good news! He resurrected on the third day.

Absolutely, but I do think you can get those same teachings and images in other religions

But that sounds more like what Catholicism did around 1200 - 1800. I consider it to be a slightly different religion.

Huh. That seems pretty true. Fuck though, dude. Knowledge is some pretty dank shit. Its universally unfavorable to attain knowledge under the christian mindset? is that tied to the "dont be worldy" stuff? Sounds pretty culty under a certain lense dude but im following you, whats the advantage for christly innocence in comparison to sharp knowledge?

Not if you killed your goats every month you wouldn't

Yeah I feel you there, and without the servitude stuff and indoctrination gymnastics. youre definitely right, but shit I have a softspot behind this autistic wall of skepticism that kinda wants it to be true.

Jesus gave his life for your goats.
A human sacrifice is worth 100 animal sacrifices, and the sacrifice of a son of a god is with infinity animal sacrifices, but the choice is yours.

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are you implying that my entire lineage is responsible for literally every action I make? That's a disgusting worldview.

I'm sorry, but it makes no sense. The whole need for a sacrifice escapes my cognition. According to the story, jesus, who is god but also his son, sacrificed himself to himself to redeem the sins he made inherent in us. It's a mind fuck.

Yes but all the other Christian religions come from Catholicism and the others were created specifically in response to political movements

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Immortality.
As the mice spring from the inanimate rags, flies from the dead meat, geese from the barnacles, and corn plants stalk up from the dead kernels unto the light from the Sun of the Prime Mover, imbued by the cloud Angels with life itself, so must you hate your friends, your family, and yourself, for as dry, miserable and lifeless you make your existence, the more your eternal life will flourish, but just as no new corn can sprout from living ears, so he who loves his wild and juicy life shall have no afterlife at all and shall simply lose his life completely after he is dead.

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>and then i don't give it to you anyway, cuck

>be Flavius Josephus
>messianic prophecy pissing off Nero
>hold off three of his generals
>after Caspian comes Vespian
>revolt gets its shit pushed in
>brought before Vespian for sentencing
>tell him you think he's the messiah
>"lol you just don't want to be executed"
>puts you in jail instead of execution, just in case
>he keeps winning, your bullshit goes to his head
>he brings you out of jail and makes you an advisor
>leverage your "prophecy" to get everyone to expect Vespian to be the next Caesar
>Nero's out, Vespian's in
>produce "gospels" you wrote about superjew from 80 years ago
>everyone else from your town died so no one is around to call you on your bullshit
>Vespian (now Caesar) thinks you're legit so everyone else in Rome has to say you're legit
>catholicchurch.parchment

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Also why masturbation is mass murder Onan.

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That’s normal because it targets human nature and our awareness of death. That’s also the reason why these stories survive time

Not a good place to post religious questions Mr. Bergstein Rothschild

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But catholics killed protestants during the inquisition, making it obvious that two unrelated christian religions must coexist. In either case, they're both insane.

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Trinity fucks me up too but you need to start thinking less of the sacrifice aspect and more of the forgiveness

The sacrafice was merely the plot device to get to him forgiving humans at the largest scale

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*worth not with

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Agreed

Most of those conflicts arise from the inability to convert. When that happens the religious group feels threaten that they may lose followers so they resort to stomping out the threat

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Jesus was crucified as a common bandit for being a threat to the established order of the jews and romans of the time.

It has nothing to do with sacrifices or sins or forgiving Yea Forumstard who shoot rope at waluigi hentai on a daily basis

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He didn't die for our sins. He came here to teach us.

so youre jewish

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fucking this

Whoa now this is what im looking for user.
Is that not basically a call to let go? Does that tie into seeking knowledge as well, as in letting go of the hunger for knowlege is the acceptance of placid innocence?

So much value is placed on knowledge, the concept of letting it go entirely would essentially be ego death to me. How do you go about relinquishing your ties to this kinda shit and going all christian monk mode? does it /literally/ mean be a miserable person all he time? Doesnt that go against christly kindness?

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The sacrifice is too hard to ignore, everything else in the story relies on it. I really feel that if the Old Testament or New Testament were written today, instead of thousands of years ago, they'd have chosen a different concept than "sacrifices". It makes no sense that jesus had to be tortured to death and rise from the dead three days later in order for us to go to heaven. If that makes sense, then anything does.

He doesn’t mean literally

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>be God
>have only son out of wedlock
>kill him to appease sentient apes
>bring him back to life for tax exempt status
>lol

fuck the jews

...

what other way is there to even consider?

I wonder why an infinite being is so obsessed with dead animals and sacrificing himself to himself.

Metaphorically and how it relates to the development of western culture

you are also a "son of god".

The church has corrupted Christ's image so it's much harder for everyone here to recognize that you too are similar to him.

Does life make Sense? Does an Anus have spiritual possibility?

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Think of it like a movie. A scene in a movie doesn’t have to happen but it’s a creative choice and the viewers job is to decipher what meaning we are supposed to extract from that choice

Sacrifice is the greatest action you can take to show you care for something or someone. Sort of like when someone donates a kidney to a family member.

Rising three days later is a whole other story

Right.
It had nothing to do with replacing and ending the constant animal sacrifices.
Meat is murder!

Life makes sense. The question is does life have meaning.

The answer is no, but that doesn’t justify nihilism

Yeah but I really don't know why we should debate this fairy tale more than any other though..

The explanation of the metaphor is pretty clear in itself, and the bible is full of pretty obvious moral tales. It was written for first century commoners, so it's not exactly on the level of a thesis on quantum field theory..

Jesus instructed people to eat his flesh...

Well a short easy answer is that God is perfect. He cannot allow any sort of imperfection.

Imagine you have a dog that you let outside, he comes back in covered in shit that he's rolled around in. In the same way, you literally cannot tolerate his uncleanliness. Obviously you would give him a bath, but if you couldn't? If he became feral and bit you and refused to be bathed? You'd probably have to put him outside, at the very least, possibly even get rid of him at some point.

The sad, sorry fact is that most atheists don't understand this simple concept.

It's one thing to simply not believe in God.

It's quite another to go to war with God, as I believe most atheists on here do, because they don't understand the totally hypocritical position they put themselves in.

In the case of Jesus dying, the Old Testament set out the method by which you could be 'cleansed' and Jesus by his death cleansed everyone once and for all, so that daily sacrifices are no longer required.

That's the closes I could come to explain 'why'. There needed to be some time before Jesus died to demonstrate that there could never be enough sacrifices to totally do away with our sin, I suppose.

You can't murder the dead

I agree partly with you. I would say that it isn’t any more significant than any other moral text or religion. I think it should be studied for its historical context and influence in culture. Sort of like how Shakespeare is studied for its impact on literature.

But it also wasn’t written entirely by commoners. That’s just what the book says.

He was never dead...

Dogs don't become feral

Then it's not murder

I came here to fap and ended up discussing the teachings and significance of Jesus

Christianity does have a positive influence I guess

So then it wasn’t saying meat is murder

A person refusing to believe that mice spontaneously spring to life from sunlight is like a dog catching rabies?

That analogy is very poor, user, because you never mentioned that I created that dog and predetermined him to roll around in shit, as would have to be the case in order to be analogous with the Bible.

Also, I'm not an atheist. I'm really uncertain about anything. But the sacrifice and death of Christ makes no logical sense to me.

bible camp really fucked you up, user
nobody goes to wars against something they consider to be non-existent
atheists just like to point out the flaws related to, for example, christianity and its holy book, in an attempt to make you realize that it shouldn't be taken literally nor control your life

Animals die when you eat them

Yep but the Bible didn’t say that was bad

That’s why atheists are twats and agnostics are cool

That question requires a long answer. If you really want to know the most profound detailes you will need to not only read the bible but, as much commentary as you can find.
As far as I know these are the reasons why christ was the messiah and the hero of mankind.
At the most basic level all abrahamic religions are based on two fundamental principles.

Life is suffering, because of mankind's conciousness.
Those who make good sacrafice reduce the amount of suffering in the world.

These sacrafice are hard to describe, because making sacrafices is a subconscious process we do nearly constantly. For example to give up your free time to study, or even to give up your preconceived notions and admit that you are wrong is a type a sacrafice. It was a basic survival skill human being developed throughout prehistoric past since the discovery of time.

There are two major question that are answered by Christ's death and rebirth. They are what is the greatest possible sacrafice that would reduce the greatest possible suffering, and why must the conscious man suffer.

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Christ had to sacrifice himself for the goats as a message for humanity to stop the wholesale killing of animals

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God sent his only son to be your sacrifice so you won't have to kill your animals anymore

I agree with you too here, but small nuance, I mentioned it was written for commoners, not by them necessarily. It's designed to appeal and be understood by as many people possible.

This whole thing in a historical context though? Super interesting. But OP is too far in the realm of superstition.

yikes

The bible only works as long as you don't pull the switch on your brain.

Because knowledge is a curse. Fucking purple man in infinity war said it too.

kekd
that doesn't really make sense but ok

I said the same thing earlier but I didn’t mention the consciousness part as I don’t think the Bible answers that

Could you explain? Sincerely interested

Curiosity is Sin.
Ignorance is Holy Innocence.
Remember the Tree in the Garden.

Is this sarcasm or are you being serious? I originally thought you were joking but your persistence makes me wonder.

I'm pretty sure an infinite being could find another solution than being tortured to death to sacrifice himself to himself and then rising from the dead three days later.

>In the case of Jesus dying, the Old Testament set out....
Cites talking snake & zombie book to bolster his point. godtards. Just imagine being that stupid.

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because creating the universe in it both infinity small and large scales makes it to complicated to have children, so creates humans, also created sin, only fix to there being no problem is to murder ur own son after raping his mother... Now NY will allow late term abortions up to 432 months of development.

THEY MADE THE FIRST WOMAN WITH ONE OF OUR RIBS AND THEN SHE ATE A FRUIT AND IT FUCKED EVERYTHING UP FOREVER

My mistake I read it as by commoners not for commoners

What’s interesting tho is that the Bible was in Latin specifically because commoners couldn’t read and wasn’t until much later that it was translated. As a result of the translation you also begin to see the religion splinter off into different factions

custom discord game bot

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He’s either trolling or blind to the evidence that contradicts his statement.

Either way, discussing it is a waste of time

But, you do believe they spontaneously sprang into life, either through the big bang, or a stroke of lightning hit a pond and sparked the first cell....

Sorry, but that doesn't explain Jesus's need to die. We're not talking about just any sacrifice, we're talking about god's supposed need to sacrifice his son, who was also him, in order that all should not perish, even though they were predetermined and created to do so.

No it wasn't. It was the highest position of power in the Catholic world.

>Watch someone misinterpret Jung
Sure thing, kiddo!

Have you never read the Bible?

>predetermined him to roll around in shit,

Nah, it's a great analogy, your point holds no logic whatsoever, unless you believe God is controlling you with a remote control. Sorry your thinking is a little out of whack.

But go ahead, pick apart every analogy I make, it's the easy way out after all. Without analogies all you can describe is the thing the way it is, which is what OP doesn't understand.

Yes. More than most.

Do you see people out constantly sacrificing goats anywhere?

It isn’t the most powerful today but it absolutely used to be the most powerful position in the world

Every world history book will tell you this

Believing in neutron exchange is just like rabies.

Every Passover in Jerusalem to name one

You don't seem to understand the sheer numbers of goats that had to be killed for our sins.
It was an animal holocaust.

he died because the theme of sacrifice, resurrection, metamorphosis and enlightenment is a common theme in human mythology. end of story.

Sorry I assumed you lived in God's Nation.
Enjoy Hell.

Why did the goats have to die?

>shouldn't be taken literally nor control your life

You've fallen into the trap of thinking that my statement was trying to 'prove' Christianity in any way (it was not), when I was merely addressing why Christ needed to die in the context of Christian belief, in response to OP's questoin.

So sayeth the Quads, for those who know little but speak with condemnation, I shall send unto them a false prophet who shall be called the Trompe, and they will don his hats of red, and spoil the land with waste and greed until the garden is rotted and burnt, and the Trompe will deceive the red hats and spew upon them his blessing of foul sayings, and they shall rejoice, for the Trompe has shown them how to know less and speak more. But then the LORD will put on his smiting gear, for He greatly enjoys smiting, and will grind the Trompe and his foul redhats into his holy mouth so that they may be hunks of his Stool, for they have laid waste to His garden, and then the LORD will smile and say. LO! Verily I say unto thee, now this is some fucking WINNING.

I do but I also read. I’d say enjoy hell but I think, mentally, you’re already living in it

>God's Nation
what even the fuck is that?

well, certainly you can't argue with someone with a closed mind

If you’re Mormon, it’s the United States

yeah alright then, just replace "your life" with "the believer's life"
the point stays the same, it just doesn't apply to you it seems

You don't need to precisely control everything someone does, down to the minutest detail, in order to have predestined someone, in this case to hell. The sacrifice jesus did in the bible is absurd. Nothing you've said so far has touched on the obvious paradox of his sacrifice.

sooo.. anyone not mormon and outside the US is going to hell?

Conciousness causes suffering inherently. knowledge of our true shortcomings gives us shame, our knowledge of our fragility us fear, and our knowlege of our inevitable death makes us yourn for meaning. The knowlege our conciousnes bestowed upon us is a blessing and a curse that mankind must always contend with.

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>believing in god

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Preach dude. People that shit on Christians for believing in "fairy tales" believe in the Big Bang etc. Hypocritical as fuck.

Go back and read my statement again user, you missed an important sentence.

In your case, yes, as you are being intentionally obtuse and combative, for really no apparent reason.

I will say again that my statement was not an attempt to 'prove' Christianity, but to answer OP's question in the context of Christian belief. You do not need to undo my argument, because the argument itself is sound. What you struggle with is anyone presenting a rational argument for God being real to begin with, as clearly evidenced by your replies.

The one that believes in Jesus Christ

Jesus us a member of the trinity that composes the Christian God, so he is sacrificing himself to pay for the sins of man. People that live in far away places or before the time of jesus had no way of being saved and would die unfairly, thus they are seen as inocent by god, and Jesus dies as a way of saving them

Not what Mormons teach either. If you’re gonna troll you’re gonna have to tried harder than that. I suggest first re-enrolling in grade school

i'm a girl btw. ;)

10/10

there's a lot more than one, user..

im asking a question based on the previous comments, calm down chad

The Big Bang isn’t a belief it’s a theory and doesn’t assert itself as a definite answer to the origins of the universe

You did not make a point, other than to assert that your belief system should be imposed on the masses. It should not, as each individual is free to practice any religion they choose, and if they notice significant difference in their life to continue if they desire.

You also failed to cite or demonstrate a single flaw in the bible, which was the basis of your argument.

Sorry, I thought you were the same guy that told me to enjoy hell

You can choose to do the work of Jesus or do the work of Satan.
Satan doesn't care if you call it Confucianism, Buddhism, Daoism, Atheism, Judaeism, or Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, as long as you aren't doing the work of Jesus.

>Nothing you've said so far has touched on the obvious paradox of his sacrifice.

I've addressed OPs question in the context of Christian belief. I have addressed his question, regardless of whether yours have been answered or not.

If you have additional questions, then ask them. That is no fault of my own, nor does it detract from the points previously made, none of which you have been able to adequately dispute.

Believing in neutron exchange or the existence of uranium is the same as being a rabid dog the the Lord Noble.

who the fuck knows? everything dies.

Correct
The Big Bang is the most plausible model we have and where all the evidence points to, but there is still room for refinement (for instance, confirming without a doubt the period of inflation that followed it in the first instants)

Thanks man, I pointed out his hypocrisy, which is plain for all to see at this point.

But as with all atheists, you are always arguing with a moving target....

Yes that’s the story of genesis but I was more interest in how you believe it ties into the story of the crucifixion

But the point is, why does he need a sacrifice, let alone for the sacrifice to be himself?

oh and also finally working out the quantum theory for gravity, which would be extremely helpful to our understanding of singularities (black holes and big bang)

Not a valid counterargument to anything said thus far, just a failure to read the post in it's entirety.

Thank you, next.

>Bible
>Sense
This again?

nah I wasnt haha

Heh-heh-heh. God en stuffs. Lame, right brah? Let’s talk about steam games.

You didn't explain why his death was necessary. You merely gave an unequivalent analogy.

I'm not doing the work of jesus nor anybody, I'm doing the best I can to be a good person and be helpful to my community
your fictional stories have nothing to do with our morality, and Satan is a scam aimed at keeping you in line

>why does he need a sacrifice,
>let alone for the sacrifice to be himself?

As a Christian, I will admit I don't really know the answer to these. I think too many times we try to explain away everything and just end up making ourselves look worse in the process.

I don't know exactly how electricity works either, but I don't let that stop me from using it. In the case of Jesus, there is enough physical, tangible evidence to prove his resurrection in a modern day court of law, so I feel confident trusting in the resurrection without understanding the rationale behind it fully.

source: Google world record holder for most cases won in a court of law.

the difference is u don't understand electricity because ur a fucking moron

whereas u don't understand god because he isn't real

...this might be the most reasonable post I've ever seen a religious person make, thanks for not being an asshole user
this being said, check out electricity, it's fascinating!

If you aren't doing the work of Jesus then you are doing the work of Satan.
Enjoy Hell.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but is it widely believed, because when entering a black hole the object is pressured into an infinitely small point, that many connected this to the Big Bang and our origins may be the result of something entering a black hole and popping out on the other side

thanks Cletus, keep trolling

Believe and belief are two different words. I know the Big Bang is a theory, but a lot of people do in fact believe it's true. Then, some of these people are the same people that will diss religious people for believing in God.

...

Even if you're not religious this makes sense. It shows that there is more than the material world and Jesus was greater than his physical form, so it didn't matter if he was matter ;)

What tangible evidence proves his resurrection?

Only killing animals cures curiosity.

I just feel the god of the New Testament makes more sense than jesus, and that's not saying much. Not trying to be offensive at all (I have friends who are Christians) but I'm just being honest.

Christ did not simply die. After the crusifixion Christ suffers in hell an entire eternity for each and every man woman and child past present and future. Christ needed to die to burn in hell for everyone who ever lived and will live concentrated into 3 days of torment. Such measures needed to be taken otherwise God could not justify forgiving any sin. What Christs crusifiction represents is taking the suffering of the entirety of humanity into himself.

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yeah it could be, I wouldn't say it's widely believed but there are models for it
at some point people though that if there were black holes there must be "white" hole too (where the stuff pops out), so some theorized that our universe might be that, but it ended up not being the case
the closest things you're referring to is that a crazy warping of spacetime like in a black hole could create a new "bubble" of spacetime with different properties in a higher dimension
this is all highly speculative; it wouldnt violate any current understanding of the physical world, but there isn't much proof for it either other than mathematical models that don't break completely

*Old Testament

Curiosity is a deadly disease you have contracted from your father, and only through the systematic killing of your animals can you prevent its ravages.

Refer to this

>After the crusifixion Christ suffers in hell an entire eternity for each and every man woman and child past present and future
But that's not even biblical. The Bible says he returned to heaven right after he rose from the dead. Not to mention, that sacrifice, like all other sacrifices for sins, would make no sense.

Interpretation depends on the religion.
I was told the miracle was the resurrection - that there was life after death, and that his resurrection was proof that he was the son of God. That the dying for your sins thing is a guilt trip created by some churches to coerce you into behavioral compliance, when the message was supposed to be that God loves you and that the life we live on Earth is material, temporary, and a lesson.
Church: "Do as I say."
Jesus: "This is how it is. Make the most of it."

Too lazy to read if someone said it already but here’s the actual answer if you seriously wanna know

Backstory:
>the wage of committing any sin (any wrongdoing such as lying, killing, stealing, worshiping something other than God) is DEATH (physical as well as spiritual- eternity in hell)
>God is perfect and holy, and choosing to sin separates you from the standard of the universe that is perfection, so hell is a place outside of God’s prescense where there is no more contact with God or hope for leaving, you’re stuck there because you literally cannot be with God.
>Satan does not “rule” there, hell was created for Satan and the demons
>Satan and his demons brought sinfulness to humans to bring God’s creation that he loved down to hell with them
>God loved his creation so much that came up with a plan to save them from that fate he never intended for us

Fast forward
>God’s son (Jesus), is God but born in flesh and blood through a pure, umblemished virgin.
>Jesus (God as a human) faced every temptation to sin that we faced, lived a perfect, sinless life while being a human.
>Despite never sinning, he allowed himself to die. This essentially breaks the entire system of the universe that is the price of sin = death.
>Because he died without sinning, he chose to bring upon himself every sin that humanity had done and ever will do and covered the cost of spiritual death on humanity’s behalf.
>Because he is God and perfect, he also rose from the dead, which “sealed the deal” and broke the system of how death works, meaning we can also spiritually choose the “life” option instead of the spiritual death we earned.
>With our sin is paid, instead of hell we can go to heaven- the sinless, perfect place of pure happiness- because God will see our slate as clean.
>All we have to do is make our decision- to accept Jesus’ payment our sin, or reject him and pay our own price that we “deserve” but God never wanted.

>suffers in Hell for the goats of every man woman and child

cont. the particularity of the big bang is that you don't need "stuff" prior to the bang to trigger it, even spacetime itself isn't a thing (it's hard to picture!)
but since Einstein proved that matter and energy are interchangeable concepts, the mindblowing amount of energy of the bang would account for the whole universe, and it's rapid "cool down" would have created the matter we observe everyday
it's a shamefully short summary, but here we are

That’s semantics and people who believe the Big Bang to be true would gladly discard it is evidence proved something different

The same can’t be said for some religions, which has had claims disproven repeatedly only to then adopt another justification

As the mice spring from the inanimate rags, flies from the dead meat, geese from the barnacles, and corn plants stalk up from the dead kernels unto the light from the Sun of the Prime Mover, imbued by the cloud Angels with life itself, so there is life after death.
Go read John

What makes you think time exist outside of the human mind. three days on earth could be eternities in hell or heaven.

Where in the Bible is that mentioned? I’m not doubting you, I’ve just never read that passage

Jesus was an alien.

Jesus' purpose was to make humanity more civil.

Jesus will return.

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This is just the typical answers that sparked the OP question.

Also, if satan rebelled against god in heaven, then why couldn't people who go to heaven potentially do so as well?

this is a very important nuance
the "belief" in the big bang and other fundamental scientific discoveries comes from and incommensurable amount of corroborating evidence all re-enforcing the same conclusion

zero blind trust or faith involved

He lives on planet kolob

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time exists outside of the human mind because of entropy and it's a property that arises from the fabric of the universe itself (spacetime)

if "hell" is outside our universe, then it's possible, but good luck with your argumentation

>What makes you think time exist outside of the human mind
I don't believe it does actually. But the idea that christ went to hell for eternity in the three days he was dead is conjectural and nowhere mentioned in the bible.

And once again, why would these sacrifices make sense? If the god of the bible doesn't want sin, why does he create beings with the capacity to commit them in the first place?

I’ve had Einstein’s books on my shelf for so long and I’m too intimidated to start

But I always heard that that point referred prior to the Big Bang contained the basic element of all matter in the universe. Do you mean that the point was energy?

Also the cool down and eventual freeze death freaks me out

Would’ve been TL;DR but I read anyways and made a lot of sense. Almost too much. Haven’t been in years but guess I’ll try out church this Sunday and have a talk with God, see how it goes. Thanks for the info user

>You didn't explain why his death was necessary.
yes, I did. Quite adequately, in fact. Can't' help you if you don't like it.

It isnt scripture its implied by the scripture. There are more interpretations of the crusifixion than mine. I'm not sure where I heard it originally, but the more i read about historical interpretations and the scriptures themselves it makes the most sense to me.

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>thanks for not being an asshole user

thanks user, for being cool. One guy thinks I'm a moron, the next says thanks. Thanks for making it all worth it

I gave my sources user, do your own research.

not trying to be a dick, you'll just shoot down anything I tell you anyway, let's be honest. I've played that game before, too tired to do it tonight.

I gave you my source

>I just feel the god of the New Testament makes more sense than jesus,

What? I don't know what you're driving at

I immediately corrected it and said "Old Testament". The story of jesus is more absurd than the Old Testament was what I'm "driving at".

well dudes, as another user said on here, I was fulling intending on spending the evening watching porn and edging myself silly, but instead here I am defending Christianity and too tired to fap. the lord does work in mysterious ways as they say, and if that won't convince you damn atheists then I guess nothing will (cue edgelord teenage atheists missing the friendly sarcasm). goodnight everyone

my mistake, didn't realize that was you.

i'm going to bed, but i'd be interested in knowing why you think the old makes more sense than the new one day.

...

I went to catholic school for 18 years and have been reasonable with my responses to all the other anons

I’m sincerely interested

That other user was me here

Yes. Good bye. But in case you read this, the Old Testament makes more sense where god is just a dictator without any literal child. God having a child makes no sense in my mind, but maybe it does for other people.

ho shit i gotta save this one. made me spit out my water. ya should have posted this to ylyl

Because God didn't make puppets.
He gave his creations free will if he made them bound to his will they would not truly be alive. God bestowed them a soul that gives them a will of their own that could imagine it's own fantasies and dreams. he gave to his creations a piece of his own divinity so they could take part in creating things of their own.

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what does free will mean?

Wouldn’t a more plausible explanation for the number three be that it’s a reference to the trinity?

But nobody asked to be born. Us being born violates our supposed free will. Also, it's not fair that most of us, according to Scripture, will spend eternity in hell as a result from being born, when infinite other beings who were never born will not. If the bible was correct, aborted fetuses, as well as those who were never conceived at all, are very fortunate.

Free will doesn’t exist even in a scientific sense. Every desicion you ever made and will make is predetermined by our neurochemistry

>believes that neurochemistry is not scientific

That is actually a very interesting perspective that I’ve never heard.

I’m familiar with the moral paradox of having kids that has been proposed but never heard it from a spiritual angle. Did you read that somewhere or come up with it?

I never said it isn’t scientific

I was saying the existence of free will can be disproven from a scientific perspective

Came up with it. The bible is too contradictory. But not just the bible, but all of existence.

Cont: I was saying this because free will is one of the corner stones of Christianity

God “having” a child is just a phrasing we use to comprehend the difference between regular God and Jesus.

God is omnipresent which means he is everywhere and all-seeing. One “person”, but can be anywhere and in multiple places at once. Jesus is God choosing to reside in human flesh and take on human form. He’s the “Son” of God because he was physically born into earth. He’s not literally an offspring of God with his own intentions, he’s just God using omnipresence to have a part of himself live in human flesh completely.

God resides in heaven, but part of himself resided in human flesh to fulfill the mission of paying for the sins of humanity. They’re separate forms that coexist but are the same person and of the same mind.

That which is active in creation. The logos.
God bestowed your will upon you what it means is up to yourself

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Do you see corruption in this world?

Very good

But, would you say free will is given at birth? Saying that being brought into this world violates our free will suggests that there was a “you” before being born and that you could act on free will prior to birth

What does that even mean? We’ll do things because we think of it beforehand, whether it’s consciously or subconsciously? That’s hardly pre-determination in the sense that everyone else is talking about. As in before you were born you were predestined to trip over that branch when walking in the street at that specific time and that specific day.

Numbers don't exist scientifically either doesn't make them any less true

>if he made them bound to his will they would not truly be alive.
If a god were responsible for the creation of all beings, they would still be bound by the form god willed, so they could only act within the confines their forms allowed, so their will isn't free it is limited by the form god willed them to have.

Your genetics are your puppet strings and you can't flap your wings to soar with an eagle any more than a hawk can give you a thumbs up for doing it.

the reason we made sacrifices before Christ's death were to atone for our sins, however, as animals are imperfect, we would have to make multiple. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice to atone for our sins, sent to us from the Lord.

It’s a hard concept to wrap your head around as I struggled with it but you should check out Free Will by Sam Harris

The best example to explain it is the red pill blue pill scenario. The idea is that whichever pill you select was always the pill you would’ve selected. Thus consideration of your two choices was the illusion of having free will

>But, would you say free will is given at birth?
Honestly no. There are too many genetic and environmental components. The only christians who are logically consistent are the ones who believe in predestination, which also, in my opinion, suggests that god is rather cruel; creating people to damn them for eternity or send them to heaven for eternity.

And I don't see a logical reason to believe there was an "us" before we were born, unless everything is predestined.

That’s because numbers can be imprinted on reality. The idea is that free will is an illusion and can it be scientifically mapped out

Yes they do, numbers are a way to serialize quanitity and both order and quantity can be scrutinized by the scientific method to demonstrate that a particularly defined number set can be shown to be physically and logically consistent over time and space.

Are you fucking retard? A baptized Christian? He Was a religious Jewish man... Christianity wasn't even invented until 100 years after he was already dead you dumb faggot

You said this much better than I did

Cannot *

Exactly- can it be mapped out? Not really. It’s never happened before in our records. You’d have to have some religious-level faith to believe that free will can be mapped out since you’ve never seen it happen or physical proof of it happening. Only “well it makes sense to me that it could happen”

Yes. But how does that change my previous statement?

So then you don’t believe free will to be true? At least in so far as to how it’s defined in the Bible?

If so, im 100% in agreement and suggest you check out the book free will by Sam Harris

It’s very tricky though because many people believe the consideration between two options proves free will. But actually you can trace back the final choice through to the moment you were born and see your choice was already made years ago

This post actually answered most of the questions in the thread that are actually related to the crucifixion

Yet it’s been mostly ignored

Almost seems like no one really wants answers, they just want to ask questions and have their “GOTCHA!” moments

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>So then you don’t believe free will to be true? At least in so far as to how it’s defined in the Bible
Yes exactly. But, after eliminating the bible's concept of it, deciding how much free will we individually have is difficult.

Also, I will check that out.

>Think about it
You're Jesusing wrong...

Lol
> was a baptized christian
Nope

I worded that poorly. The bible's concept of it has no effect on other concepts of it. Just want to clarify that.

But the final choice would not have happened if you didn’t choose that same specfic action to lead to the choice. If you did something different, the final choice would also be completely different.

It’s all about how you view time. Do you think time is linear? Then free will exists, as you can only view things from past to future, not future to past.

Do you think time can go in multiple directions, such as freely going backwards and forwards, and side to side (parallel universes)? Then free will doesn’t exist in that case, as you’re able to view things from future to past, and parallel universes means the one specific universe you’re in is predestined to the T, with one minor difference meaning an entirely different universe what that path is predestined.

The difference is that linear time makes sense logically in terms of the fact that we physically see it right now.

Time going in every direction is only a theory that has not been seen and not physically proven. The faith it takes to believe that is equal to religion. Which is fine and totally up to what you choose to believe, but you see what I’m getting at.

Now if we have proof of time travel or access to parallel universes, that can become a physical fact and we can universally agree that free will does not exist.

Bump

Because by having inherited our sinful nature from Adam, we are all basically doomed to sin. The consequences of this is greater than you think, God is a being of justice and MUST punish those who sin. God can not be a being of justice and reward those who have sinned otherwise he would not be a just god, he would be a corrupt god. For god to get around this obvious barrier for connecting with man, he had to pay for the sin of man. Before Jesus was sacrificed, the jews who were originally gods chosen people used to sacrifice animals as a way to repay for their sin. However god saw that people continued to sin regardless of the sacrifices and thus rendered them worthless. To become a Christian requires accepting Jesus genuinely into your heart. Not only does accepting Jesus as your lord and savior pay for your sin that you commit on a daily basis but also transforms you as a follower. Your hardened heart from sin is reborn when this happens, and you will begin your spiritual journey. This reborn lifestyle is called being Christlike and is basically the ultimate lifestyle that god wants us to live that honors him and makes us better people.

youtu.be/zmEScIUcvz0

>For god to get around this obvious barrier
Why does he need to get around any barriers? He's god and can make anything possible.

Christians gave their lifes under oppressive, anti-christian regimes, thus they were badly controlled.
The sources of Christianity are historically accurate, search for cold case christianity.

Bump