I don't watch WWE or really any wrestling anymore but every time they push a face champion everyone turns on them in about a month no matter how many people supposedly wanted it. I used to think it was just contrarianism but even the usual smarks on Twitter are shitting on them. wtf is up with this? Why do people only like heel champions these days? When was the last time a face was successful in WWE? How do they apparently work in other promotions but not here?
Pic unrelated
Other urls found in this thread:
because they can't book faces and haven't been able to for years, they look and act like geeks
Vince can't book faces, he never has been able to
People like Kofi and Becky. It's just Jasethetty that the crowds are booing/apathetic towards.
>he can't book faces
Yeah my question is why. I don't watch enough wrestling to know why faces work in other promotions but somehow they can't work in WWE ever
I've seen nothing but complaining over Kofi winning on twitter
they have no idea what makes a face "cool". look at Kevin Owens. clearly they want him to be their next Stone Cold; they even gave him the Stunner. but would Stone Cold lose his first round KOTR match, beg Vince to lift a fine, and then let Vince fire and then beat him up after calling a clean match as a guest referee? no fucking way. it makes KO look like a pussy faggot. even if he gets one over on Shane eventually he lost a majority of the feud and looks like a simp.
now look at Seth. he lets his girlfriend call him "the man's man" and acts like she wears the pants in the relationship. he's barely bigger than a cruiserweight. does this make him appealing? no it makes him look like a wuss
then there's Braun. a guy that is twice the size of Seth and should beat him easily. but no, they have him eat finisher spam and lose matches because he's a fucktard that injures himself. it makes Braun look bad, and it makes his opponent look bad because there's no rational way someone like Seth should be beating him. with Rey Mysterio, he could put up a hell of a match but come up short and people loved him. instead they do the reverse, the smaller guy wins and the bigger guys come up "just short". it makes no sense and people are tired of it.
Well the thing is, from a story telling standpoint a good guy holding the championship doesn't really make a lot of sense to progress a story arch. Like usually when good guys, lets take comics or cartoons or fairy tales for example, when a good guy WINS that means that peace has fallen around the "land" (in this case the WWE Universe) if good guys hold the titles too long then there's no real conflicts going on at the very top.
WWE championships aren't like trophies or boxing belts, they make a person in a position of power of sorts from a kayfabe perspective.
Now good guys don't just exist either, good guys have to be created and they cycle out too, you need a Heel (bad guy) to create a conflict. Faces are supposed to look WEAK , and a face can lose a lot and still come back at the end to "save the day". That's why we get underdog stories so often in Anime, because anime follows very basic story telling. Now Heels can lose and still look strong, Faces have to overcome a conflict and conflict doesn't really exist until a villian comes and creates it and in the same sense the villian creates the hero. All these face champions overcame an odd. But Heels just keep evolving and evolving and always will get stronger, smarter, more capable. etc. Faces don't do anything until the climax (see DBZ for an example of that happening every story)
I don't know exactly, it seems like as soon as a face wins the title that is the conclusion of their story. They stop doing anything cool that got them there and just start cutting promos about winning the title. Becky is still talking about winning at Wrestlemania like it is relevant.
It is an endless cycle where e-drones push for someone to become champ because they are sick of other people who have been pushed more (Roman for Seth, Charlotte for Becky, etc.) The problem is the men have no character/personality/gimmick and pretty much every woman can only play a cunt. E-drones only realize it belatedly after the people they wanted to get pushed are champions and then they start pushing for the next set of shitters to replace them.
Yes
Literally all of this. Also factor in that Vince is terrified at making another star that can hold him up for a paycheck. That why Zack Ryder was continuously buried, he had all the momentum in the world behind him, including massive fan support but Vince didnt want a wrestler to be a draw, he wants the company to be a draw. That is the biggest problem that they have when making babyfaces, cant have them be more over than the company itself.
I hate vince is stupid enough to keep trying to push his brand as the draw. I get why but damn its just so pathetic and why he's losing so many viewers. dumb fuck genius that he is
Simple, 'heels' are much more interesting and entertaining so you can't get behind the face as they 'overcome the odds'
Pretty much everyone sucks at their jobs.
A true idiot savant. Hes a brilliant businessman but an actual shoot retard as well.
...
You are shoot retarded. Even using your weeaboo analogy you're wrong. Shounen protagonists are always strong, that's why we root for them. They can lose to the villain but its the belief that they will win that makes people watch.
You guy tickets to a show to see your heroes beat the shit out of thr wrestlers you hate. It's basic booking but in WWE there is no faith in this, it's always HEAT. And the faces aren't likable, and the heels are never strong enough to be taken seriously other than Brock.
That's pretty shitty way of looking at it. There have been plenty of good long reigning babyfaces before, just because they can't now doesn't mean it can't be done.
Vince has been fucking up since Cena. And when he gets a guy who's loved by the fans he buries them with crap booking: Bryan, CM Punk, Ambrose, Braun, Seth, Broken Matt, etc
You both are stepping out of bounds to try and tie meaningless points together. Shounen and wrestling have some things in common but not everything. Amuro, Shinji, Renton, etc... drew mega dimes and weren't always strong. But a dude crying in the ring weekly wouldn't work unless it was the greatest storyline ever. No need to complicate things, the formula is simple, WWE just refuses to do it correctly. Vince knows how to book big money angles, he chooses not to. NJPW turned their business around, so did AAA, there's not much complicated about what they did, they just did the shit correctly without letting shit get in the way. Seth was supposed to drop the title but Vince reversed it and gave him two belts to spite the bad crowd reaction.
I really do think that the way Babyfaces have been presented in the past 10 years in the WWE has done irreparable damage to the way they can present characters. People now are only over if they were over prior to 2010, over ironically as a joke, or if they are heels that are allowed to be 'cool' and constantly mog the fuck out of the face on the mic.
>People like Becky
Yes cause when I think of heel champ, I think of Tanahashi's lengthy reigns where the crowd was behind him. Also, again babyfaces did fine was champions. If you want WWE examples, Bret Hart in 94 and Austin in 99. It was only after 2000 they started getting hard over heel reigns with Triple H and Angle.
Cringe
Seth is boring and Kofi is a comedy midcarder who has held the belt longer than anyone expected or wanted him to. Becky is still beloved.
The people who wanted Kofi still like that he's been given a long reign
The people who wanted Becky still pretend she's good
The only one people "turned" on really was Seth.
I think it has a lot to do with how and what people watch on tv. Over the past couple decades now, we’ve seen a substantial increase in shows that have antiheroes as their main characters. Clean cut, smiling, optimistic, goody two shoes baby faces aren’t popular in other shows, so why would it translate better in the wwe? For example, people like Walter White in Breaking Bad because he always talked about overcoming the odds, never lost hope and always did the right thing? Fuck no. He cooked meth, killed who he had too and didn’t give a fuck about what anybody had to say about it.
Other promotions at least have a general idea of what makes a babyface cool in the current year. WWE is stuck in the 80s where every face is a happy go lucky retard whose entire gimmick is
>Smile
>Signature sequence of moves
>Catchphrase
Modern fans don't like squeaky clean good guys but WWE either doesn't get that or doesn't care.
>Why do people only like heel champions these days?
Okada and Tanahashi
Kofi's chest is disgusting. They need a champion with an actual chest.
It's not like WWE doesn't get this. Stone Cold was their biggest draw
youtube.com
>Becky is beloved
>gets yes! chants as bayley beats her down with a chair
Neither Seth or Kofi are long term champion material. Only Roman, Cena, and Bryan are, and Cena might be retired. You have to have good matches, make the crowd excited, appear vulnerable, and beat Vince's shitty booking.
He can book faces on the chase, but not as champions. Kofi was extremely well done up to Wrestlemania.
People dislike Seth because he acts like a faggot in real life/on twitter. You can't act one way while your performing in the ring and then act a completely different way outside of it. There is no line between kayfabe and real life anymore. If they want to make successful babyfaces they either need to create characters that are extensions of the individuals real personality, or keep them the fuck off social media so that they don't ruin the illusion of their in ring character.
Biggest problem might be that no one has heat in the WWE (or NXT) right now. It's as much the fans fault as WWE's, though.
>It's the fan's fault that the people in the current roster can't work the crowd
Part of the problem is once they overcome the odds™ and win the title they never evolve as a character. Just look at Kofi, he's done the same promo every week and it quickly becomes boring
>it's the roster's fault they can't connect with the crowd when everything from their promos to the fucking individual moves they use is directed by Vince
The only thing WWE wrestlers can do with their characters are name them and color their gear, this has been widely known for years. Literally everything else is Vince's decision.
No, it's that fans don't want to boo people much anymore. Cena and Roman are the last guys I remembered being booed and if they had become real heels, the fans would have decided to cheer them. Dirtsheet following fans don't want to boo the bad guys as they're more interested in tweeting about muh workrate.
Because every fucking babyface they try to push, they write to either be an insufferable, smug faggot about everything in order to mimic Cena (Sheamus, Becko2Borts, Roman, current Seth), or a perpetually losing "underdog" impotent weeny because they think that's what got Daniel Bryan over (basically every other babyface). They do this even though it's blatantly obvious that neither of these things make a good babyface. Even people who have never heard of pro wrestling understand this, because it isn't specific to pro wrestling, but inherent in fiction, broadly speaking. The babyface/hero/good guy who the audience/viewer/reader/whatever is supposed to cheer for and want to see succeed can't be either a complete faggot or a total pussy.
>Yeah my question is why.
He's a senile malignant narcissist. As such, he is completely incapable of relating to other people, and therefore completely incapable of writing/booking characters and angles and shit that other people can relate to in any fashion.
>narcissist
Wanna know why I know you need to go back?
Typical faggot with low test. Every man more confident than me is a narcissist
A good babyface champion should have charisma so that the people want him to win and be booked strong enough to not look like an idiot whenever he talks. Imagine if stone cold would have begged to vince not to fire him or hogan would have lost to the sheik or andre.
Seth is a generic "muh dream" guy that basically begs for cheers to the audience, Koffi was the blandest member of a comedy stable whose gimmick is trying to be funny by trowing pancackes and Becky is trying to be steve austin without ever developing any personality.
Plus, the later two are there to push the diversity meme and please the "you deserve it crowd" which got behind them because they were the least popular of their group/stable.
It’s their business model now. They don’t need stars anymore. They make money off the brand. That’s what brings in the sponsors and tv money. They’d rather have a roster full of 6/10’s where everyone is replaceable & nobody draws more than the brand.
They don’t get it though. The people that did have all left. They have a bunch of failed sitcom writers doing the job that proper wrestling people used to do. WWE couldn’t recreate that again even if they wanted to.
Also he never really had that much of an idea about this stuff. He always had people around him to put ideas out. Now he’s surrounded by arse kissers who are terrified of him.
>Faces are supposed to look WEAK
Hark, there he is! The King of the Retards!
Things like "vulnerable" or "imperfect" or "flawed," don't mean "weak" or "impotent," you fucking turnip brained cocksmuggler. The only shonen anime I can think of where the protagonist was a blubbering, nutless faggot is Evangelion, the most overrated anime of all time. EVERY OTHER well regarded anime I can think of had/has protagonists that are strong, fierce, and mostly in control, not impotent geeks. Berserk, One Piece, Kill la Kill, Akame ga Kill, Cowboy Bebop, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Hunter x Hunter, Black Clover, Ghost In The Shell, Gurren Lagann, Ruroni Kenshin, Casshern Sins, Fist of the North Star, YuYu Hakusho, Megalobox, and on and on. All of them have stalwart, strong protagonists/babyfaces.
>Amuro, Shinji, Renton,
But Evangelion is the most overrated anime of all time and Eureka 7 was so fucking terrible I had repressed all memory of its existence until you mentioned the cockless spud of a protagonist.
1. all their feuds are lackluster at best and fucking horrible at worst
2. WWE doesn't want them to get "too over" because the Rock bailed on them years ago
3. they're portrayed as morons and losers that have no friends(cedrick alexander gets his ass beat, no one helps him)
4. Roman is still number 1 guy everyone else is below him
5. terrible promos written by idiots delivered by robots
6. nothing is serious and nothing matters.
You can write a book about the time period of 2007-today on how they fucked and buried every new guy they got.
>It's the fans' fault the The 'E makes all of their faces complete faggots and the heels relatively cool in slapping those insufferable dweebs around
Sure thing, sport. It's the fans that ruin the product, not the people who actually make the product.
The level of Stockholm Syndrome that 'E Drones exhibit should be the sort of thing studied in university courses.
You know you've hit a sore spot when the 'E Drones seethe too hard to be able to manage anything more than weak soyposts in response.
Hogan was champ for one of the biggest booms in Wrestling as a face. For fucking years. Stone Cold held the belt and business went up. He stayed at the top and business was big. You put heels on top all the time and people tune out.
>get credible faces
>get hated heels
>maek monay
It's just that narcissist has become some kind of overused trend word all of the sudden. I keep seeing it eveeywhere
>Their feuds are lackluster at best and fucking horrible at worst
This is the number 1 issue in my opinion. How the fuck do you expect somebody to get over when you give them a dull as fuck or straight up awful storyline? How do you expect fans to care?
t.retard pedant
if a hero wins ALL the fucking time the audience has no reason to give a fuck about him. Why would ANYBODY care about a dude who wins all the time? Heros are supposed to lose and overcome odds. Not just be there from the beginning and win all the time.
heels don't really exist anymore. when someone is a good heel the fans cheers them, the only time a wrestler gets boo'd is when they are a shit wrestler. it's all fucked
It depends on the babyface whether this is true or not.
Better to chase the title
>Ron Simmons
>The Rock
>Booker T
>Eddie Guerrero
Better to reign as champion
>Sting
>Bob Backlund
>Hulk Hogan
>Stone Cold Steve Austin
>John Cena
Don't look for any patterns here.
well my point is, heros get created
heels were always there, a hero doesn't exist without a villian to motivate them but villians are universal.
>a hero doesn't exist without a villain
Who was Hulk Hogan's villain motivation from 1983-1993?
well to be fair it was a different time and he was more a grand champion than the hero/villian dynamics you got later on in wrestling.
Piper, Orndorff, Bossman, Savage, Warrior, DiBiase, Andre... He always had long feuds with guys while he was on top. They might not have beaten him but to usually took something away from him and fans wanted him to beat them.
Shit part of the reason his feud with Piper drew in 96' was because he never beat Piper.
As for the rest of that list... Austin never held the title for all that long. He was chasing it more than holding on to it because he constantly kept getting fucked over.
stay woke
Yeah Austin was obsessed with the title, even more than a guy like The Rock, who wanted more to be face of the company. Austin was a sicko who would do anything for the title.
You're not making any sense. There have been long-reigning "grand champion" babyfaces as far back as the 1910s, just as well as there has been long-reigning heel champions as far back as the 1910s.
Hogan spent much of his 10-year Hulkamania run beating some monster-of-the-year nobody, like Zeus or Hercules Hernandez.
Don't forget undiagnosed autism. You ever wonder why wrestlers always say in shoot interviews that Vince is heavy on facial expressions? One of the signs of autism is an inability to read emotions in people's faces, they literally can't grasp subtle changes in people's faces when they're sad, or happy, or angry.
Other signs of autism generally include
>a tendency to only eat certain foods
steak wraps, anyone?
>an obsession with a single concept
Everyone who's met him says he virtually doesn't watch any TV, sports, or even other wrestling beyond micromanaging his own product. Constantly makes analogies using old cartoons from the 60s (looney tunes, mighty mouse) and old films he watched as a kid (Prichard IIRC liked to mention how he loved the old western movie "Shane")
>a resistance to change
People have said he'd rather lose a million dollars on his own idea than make a single dollar off of someone else's.
>a tendency to self-harm
Have you seen some of the matches he did? Apparently wrestlers who've wrestled Vince have said that Vince told them to go extra stiff on him.
All this is exasperated by having an abusive childhood in a 1950s North Carolina trailer park, with his stepdad beating him and his mother molesting him. I guarantee you that if his biological deadbeat dad didn't happen to be a wrestling promoter operating out of the largest city in the United States, Vince McMahon would be a crazy old coot probably still living with his mom in a bit of a trauma-induced Oedipus complex situation.
They just can’t book for shift. Not that hard to understand, brainlet
>CM Punk
>loved by fans
yikes
>"shift"
>brainlet
yikes
>Vince is Principal Skinner
>Inb4 Sneed
Dont know how Kaffir Kingston is a babyface, but I predicted he'd keep the strap.
seth is a natural born chicken shit heel, he can't escape the smarmy smugness that drips from everything he does and people fucking hate smug assholes. another factor is that seth has beaten everyone way before he should have in combination with them fucking up their top heels which leads to natural conclusions. its not a surprise that he beat braun since braun isn't protected anymore, its not a surprise that he beats lesnar since lesnar doesn't have the same worth after losing like a fucking bitch and all of this adds up to no one caring about his chase or defense.
becky is/was rather well liked, but they decided to stop start her for a few months when she was a hot as fuck fucking sun and she never recovered. problem two is that she has literally 3-4 people that she can ever have a match with since the wwe can't build women up to save their fucking life. problem three is that ramming her relationship with seth rollins down everyone's throat didn't help her at best and massively hurt her mystique at worst.
kofi is the biproduct of title fatigue while also suffering from being being a merch cash cow. no one really cares that he is champ, they care that he became champ,
all of this adds up to a few simple points:
1- they don't know the feel of a real champion anymore.
2- they are chasing social media clicks more than strong storylines.
3- they have forgotten how to protect a champion.
4- they don't know how to give up on a project past its due date.
5- they never let a personality reach its natural conclusion and instead give the wrestlers a personality they focus grouped
other promotions keep their baby faces in top condition by making sure they never lose to anyone clean unless they are another top star or a fledgling main eventer that needs an investment. they also let a personality sink or swim giving a survival of the fittest aspect to the scene of top talent (this obviously being on a per company basis).
This is accurate and redpilled
To Vince, there's two kinds of babyfaces
>Red, White, and Blue jacked up hero that beats up evil foreginers (Hogan, Cena, Luger)
>People who get wildly over after constantly getting beaten down for years (Daniel Bryan, every other failed push since then)
It's maddening if you look at anything any babyfaces has done for years now, and replace their name with Austin or Rock.
It doesn't help that the shows are constantly rewritten to the point that long term plans are the ones that last multiple shows
>being a shoot contrarian
oof