Doom Eternal retroactively ruined D44M for me. It's too slow...

Doom Eternal retroactively ruined D44M for me. It's too slow, and the combat arenas all kind of suck even if the level design of 2016 is better.

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And water is wet. 2016 is a beta and Eternal is a full modern doom game

Doom 16 was such an unbelievable slog that I don't think I'll ever play Eternal.

D44M 2016 ruined the whole franchise by attracting the worst kind of console-fag zoomers on board and turning the entire game into a first-person God Of War ripoff.

No, your beloved Fecesnal ain't any better.
You praise either one of these clusterfucks, and you instantly signal the entire world that you HATE DooM.

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>zoom eternal

>kind of suck even if the level design of 2016 is better
How is it better? Literally 4x4 square arenas. Visual design is also lackluster

>it has executions = gow but in first person
Fuck off retard

gameplay is fun rest of game shit besides graphics and the soundtrack is considered like god's gift because it was the only game with metal in ages yet
it's honestly the most obnoxious fuckin game i seen since the last of us because it's so stuck up it's own ass with epic slayer shit since the day 16 came out

well the arenas are underwhelming but the D44M levels all kind of wrap around themselves in an interesting way that feels more classic fps than the completely linear design of Eternal.
First 4 missions of D44M all have some form of non-linear progression, either in the way of upgrades or in objectives. Going back to D44M after having spent like a month with Eternal it's quite apparent how different the level design is in 2016. Eternal is way more fun to play, it's so much more fun to play that 2016 feels like a boring slog by comparison but Eternal really could have used some more involved level design instead of everything being a straight line.
>visual design is also lackluster
I both agree and disagree. I prefer Eternal's aesthetic for sure, especially when it comes to enemy design and weapons, they are WAY fucking better, but I like the atmosphere of 2016.

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>if the level design of 2016 is better.
I'm not sure if I agree.
But yeah, mechanically speaking, 2016 was a stepping stone, and retroactively, it's very unsatisfying compared to Eternal.

This is actually very easily explained: 2016 was a game that was suffering a massive identity crisis throughout the whole development. The team was really meandering, and was really unsure which direction to commit. They did end up (probably partially unintentionally) the core design principles that Eternal then perfects. But it's REALLY obvious that with 2016, the studio had no idea if it's going to work. Even Beth had very little faith in the game, if you remember what preceeded the release.

With Eternal, the they just said "OK, now we know that people do enjoy this whole far more fast paced gameplay and combat, so let's focus everything on that and that pretty much alone".
Eternal had very focused design. 2016 was the opposite. And gameplay-wise, this is very obvious.

2016 is deliberately basic but it has some fledgling ideas like weapon swapping and having multiple alt fires for your weapons that had potential for expansion, It's basically the skeleton for Eternal, the DMC1 to your DMC3, you could say.
I really like how sparse the characters are in 2016 and how Doomguy is showing up on the scene after everything has already gone down like some kind of legendary janitor. Tonally Eternal missed the mark for me a bit, even if everything else was way better.

>Doom 16 was such an unbelievable slog that I don't think I'll ever play Eternal.
16 feels almost fun compared to eternal which is the definition of a boring padded slog
Even halo infinite feels more like marathon/early doom clone and more fun especially with the grappler and vehicles only thing it needs is coop

Dunno user, 2016 are still linear shit to me
You just make things in different order, the result is the same. You can't skip hitting switches by finding a secret passage to the end of the level for example

>16 feels almost fun
>passive enemies
>small enemy roster
>2 weapons melting every enemy
>boring walking through empty corridors between arenas
Yeah FUN

>Even halo infinite feels more like marathon/early doom clone

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Eternal is just as bad they both suck
Doom without mod support isn't doom either fuck modern id Bethesda and zenimax also that vr game sucked too

The imps are great enemies, love those guys. They tried to beef up the enemy roster so they could stand up with doomguy's buffs in Eternal, but everything short of a marauder still kinda just feels like fodder. He's so strong that you can chuck musou levels of demons at him and still win.

>Even halo infinite feels more like marathon/early doom clone
It's true go play it.
It's more enjoyable than doom 4 or 5 imho the last doom I actually enjoyed was doom 3 vr on my quest 2

He grew up thinking Halo 3 is the best shit ever, what would you expect from him.

>It's true go play it.
I don't remember playing og doom like a pussy waiting for my health to regenerate

and MetaDoom?
now that's epic

Got gud

>but everything short of a marauder still kinda just feels like fodder.
Sure but there is more enemy variety in Eternal, like prowlers made to punish turtling playstyle or you have another support type enemy like carcass or you have quick/agile enemies like Whiplash

This is such a retard take. All of the points in your pic enhance the game otherwise it would be the most boring linear shooter. You don’t have much ammo cuz it incentivised you to use a variation of weapons which wasn’t the case in 16 (you just use the shotgun the entire game and it was so boring)

how come loltaku types have the same thoughts and opinions as r/doom?

for me,it didn't make doom2016 suck,but it certainly made the game look worse in some ways.

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>replay DOOM 2016 after finishing Eternal
>game now seems easier than sneezing, im finishing all the fights before the music even kicks in
>spend 90% of the game time looking at the map to find all the secrets and all the hidden shit

ill be honest here.
the only thing better in 2016 than Eternal is several aesthetics choices like weapon and armor pick-ups and no rainbow vomit when using a chainsaw.

but other than that, Eternal absolutely blows 2016 out of the water.

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its like playing megawads after playing the originals (excluding Plutonia),its such a jump that it retroactively makes the older stuff worse.

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I will still argue that Doom 2016 actually has a lot better story than it has any right to have. Not only better than Eternal (obviously) but actually quite good for AAA shooters in general.
There is a LOT of effort put into things like animation, voiceacting, and the characters are quite interesting and memorable. It's not a complicated story, but I think it's REALLY well presented and rounded up.

So I think that is actually the most high-quality aspect of the whole game.

>and no rainbow vomit when using a chainsaw.
Yeah instead you get piss vomit lmao.
I gotta admit, finding weapons earlier like plasma/minigun in 2016 is one of the few things it has over Eternal. Eternal having linear order in finding weapons actually hurts classic mode.
>dude what if you have combat shotgun at the start of the level against cyberdemon lol

I mean go back and play the first 4 levels of 2016, not just foundry, if you’ve recently played Eternal you’ll immediately notice a difference in how the levels are designed. Eternal is much more linear unfortunately

I'd argue it might be the best FPS story ever, at least in context of the times. It is perfectly on-brand for the kind of game it is. It's the triumphant return of the original FPS hero as he does what he does best. There's no questioning or narrative bloat, just "get out of the way and let me do the right thing" with just enough fluff to paint a setting beyond that.

>Eternal having linear order in finding weapons actually hurts classic mode.
>>dude what if you have combat shotgun at the start of the level against cyberdemon lol
If you're talking about SGN Master Level, you also have blood punches, grenades etc. It's not even hard to kill that Tyrant, fully upgraded SG is great.

caring about story in DOOM is like caring about a Ferrari not having a built-in coffee maker.
would be nice to have? i guess? but thats not the point of the car, now is it.
oh yeah lol that master level fucked me up really hard.
totally didnt expect a god damn tyrant when only armed with a shotgun, lol.

>difference in how the levels are designed. Eternal is much more linear unfortunately
True, but I think there is a good reason for this. The key element here is quality of encounter design.
I'm really not particularly fond of the whole progression system in general, with how formulaic the secrets are and all, but the linear nature of the levels clearly does give the studio a lot more control over the encounters and with that ballance, and the game benefits from that.

Looking back at 2016, I'm realizing how VERY FEW encounters actually stuck with me. Meanwhile, in Eternal, I remember pretty much every single battle the game sets up for you vividly.

It's not really a revelation that Eternal is laser-focused on combat. The game got a year-long delay to brush up on that alone. I don't think it's a terrible thing, to be honest.
I'd imagine a freeze followed by two frags/auto shotgun dump at the same time would be enough to handle it.

I wonder if a nu-Doom 3 will be made. It'll be hard to top Eternal.

Replaying 4 reminded me of some things I took for granted that are no longer in Eternal. Like not having to play the tutorials on ultra nightmare or being able to find some secret weapons early.

It's probably stockholm syndrome from Ultra Nightmare but I remember most of 2016 pretty well.

It helps that 2016 took me months of on again/off again attempts whereas I finished Eternal UN in a week.

>If you're talking about SGN Master Level, you also have blood punches, grenades etc
I know but still you have no excitement at finding "new" weapon. It will always be cs - ar - pb, etc just like you get them in campaign

>caring about story in DOOM is like caring about a Ferrari not having a built-in coffee maker.
I do just like to examine it on it's own merrit. Sure, if I was told to make a decision between 2016 and Eternal, my vote will go for Eternal, the good gameplay is more important than the story.

But since there is no reason for such reduction in the first place, why not look at 2016 for what it does actually contain? I'm not saying the story is important in the grand scheme of thing.

But I am saying it's pretty good on it's own.

I don't get D2016 story. Can you explain one thing to me, if you like it so much: if Hayden knew about Olivia doing bad shit, why didn't he prevent it? Why didn't he change the kill sequence for Red Dudes at least? Why did he let her have her own laboratory and commit horrific human sacrifices, and his only protection was a fucking coffin?

The only thing you could say is that her research was just THAT important, but come on, even before the Seraph reval Hayden is a super-genius with a genius level AI at his disposal. Did he want the BFG that much? Also, isn't it weird that demon-worshippers under Olivia made and worshiped a gun which only hurt demons?

Maybe if you add punches. You can also just lob stickies, they're way more ammo efficient and can deal crits if you hit the head.

Really? Oh I see. I thought it would be different. Last time I tried SGN I actually missed the Ballista completely.

If you want randomness and excitement, there's the Horde mode, I guess.

Tyrants are also total pushovers in Eternal. The only time they're ever a threat is if they're surrounded by other enemies.

Oh look, it's an OlDoom dinosaur fapping over their obsolete twin stick shooter.
Real FPS started with Quake, and I wish they'd have called Zoom '16 Quake V instead, leaving these tards to wallow in obscurity.

>Ferrari not having a built-in coffee maker
could you not have just used a porno for comparison instead

Tyrants are area denial and they work well at that. Some enemies are pressure and some are just mobile turret kinda slabs of meat that exist to divert your attention and let smaller enemies get an opening. It's good design, IMO.

Doom >>> Quake

>a shit game ruined another shit game

I don't really care about the plot holes that deeply. It's more about the broad strokes. In an average modern shooter, the player would be forced to really give Hayden's ideals a good consideration or if their character is stubborn and refuses they'd pay for it by causing issues down the line. Doomguy shoves all of that out of the way at the start of the game. The purpose of Hayden and the UAC is to be the irritating, corrupt, and contrary narrative voice for Doomguy to refuse to tolerate.

Tyrants don't really deny anything. They're way too slow and their attacks are too easy to dodge just as long as you don't stand still. And if you do manage to get hit, they don't do that much damage. Compare that to the original Cyberdemon that can one-shot you unless you have over full health and blue armor.
>It will always be cs - ar - pb, etc just like you get them in campaign
Is it? I don't remember all of the levels on classic because I've only played them one apiece, but Mars Core gives you the Plasma Gun to start.

they will probably try to make something new,its hard to go further forward without filtering console players and casuals.
other than enemy roster (the DOOM2 enemy roster is one of the best ever made), quake is a natural evolution of DOOM,if DOOM is not a shooter,quake isn't either

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Tyrant's railgun attack is pretty damn tough, but I do agree that as a rule, they just exist to be a tank that you have to devote more time than usual to. Spirit Tyrants felt way more like the old cybies.

The 2016 story is almost masterful. There are a few moments that bog it down a notch but it is genuinely impressive, which feels kind of weird to say because who'd ever really care about a Doom story, but they did it so well that you can't help but be engaged.
The first like 5 minutes of 2016 is literally perfection. It could not have started better. That line "We did it for the betterment of mankind" as Doomguy looks down on the dead man in the elevator. It's so perfectly succinct. The level of intelligent restraint the story has is just beautiful. It's a shame that all of that went out the window in Eternal, I mean it's two different approaches, I don't want to shit on them for what they tried with Eternal, but I think it sucks compared to 2016 in terms of story. It's great that Eternal has no points where you are stopped and forced to stand around listening to exposition, but also the story you have in cutscenes is not good and there's too much codex shit that I'm not interested in, there's hardly any environmental storytelling which is what 2016 excelled at.

I can only hope that the next Doom game goes back to the minimalist and restrained form of storytelling that 2016 had.

>they will probably try to make something new,its hard to go further forward without filtering console players and casuals.
Doom Eternal already kinda did that. They thought they had to dial down the general intensity for the final DLC and it's only in the aftermath that it's clear that the problem wasn't that the game was hard, it's that people didn't understand the game's design.

I don't remember any spirit ones aside from at the end of the Holt, but even that one wasn't too dangerous. The trouble came from the tentacles, blood makyr, doomhunter, and carcasses that spawned in with him.

>Can you explain one thing to me, if you like it so much: if Hayden knew about Olivia doing bad shit, why didn't he prevent it?
Unlike the retconned Hayden in Eternal, Hayden in 2016 is a very human character, and a completely blinded one. The game makes a very clear point about his priorities in the first minutes, when he talks about everything that happened was done in the interests of humanity, while Doomguy scans the mangled human bodies in the elevator.

Hayden simply under-estimated how far Olivia has gone. And he also thought her actions being still INTEGRAL to the whole project. He knew she is commiting human sacrifices, but then again she was the only one in his team who both had success, and understood the workings of hell enough to allow him continuing her work.

He simply miscalculated the risk she presents. Plus - it's also possible he relied too much on his safeguard in the form of doomguy to fix shit in case things go south. I think he severely underestimated how hard it will be to control Doomguy.

Even after the fucking Lazarus Wave, Hayden still is entirely convinced that the situation can be fixed, without sacrificing anything of his plan.

The whole Hayden is Seraph reveal obviously throws all of this into the garbage. Under Eternal/AG perspectives, Hayden's actions make absolutely zero sense.
Because Hayden being Seraph is a retcong, and a very painfully obvious one.

They're extremely tanky and because spirit enemies are faster it's more capable of pressuring you. Cyberdemon's damage is actually pretty high, it's just usually so ponderous that you don't have to worry about it, and Doomguy's damage output is so high that you can kill them quick if they get in close. With the spirit cyberdemon you actually have to respect them because they can't be faltered and they have a ton of resistances.

The attacks come out faster, but they're still really easy to dodge and they still move very slowly. Aside from their bulkiness, they're not really a factor. Again, the enemies that spawn in that fight are way more dangerous.

Neat, so I'm not the only one who noticed this stuff. Though my personal favorite moment of 2016's story is one that is massively underused, it's literally dedicated on missable text dumb: which is the reveal of Olivia's true motivation.
That is such a nice and dark character reveal. They should have made that more prominent moment, but in terms of story writing, it's just great.

The cyberdemon IMO is what pushes you into those things. If it walks up on you you don't really have a choice but to retreat because it's just that tanky where a standard cyberdemon you could just put up chaingun shield and burst it.

which codex is that? Got a link to it?

that's fair but they are at least trying make it up with the master levels,they can't go further than a certain point,and they have already reached it and will have to go a different direction (and making a totally classic campaign won't work wither cause id just be a poor-mans version of what fans have already done better,like how dimension of the machine for quake was just diet AD,which can be fine,but not ideal for ID)

They both work and are designed around their speeds. Doom Eternal obviously destroys Doom 16's performance in the strict FPS gameplay terms, but then Doom Eternally just has the best FPS gameplay we've seen in ages, striking a fine balance between adhd trickery and longer form resource management.
If it could function in a more branching twisting kind of level design there would be no recent game to offer something better.