Exile kills all the jedi masters

You were gaslighted by a megalomaniac, you idiot.

>act with malice and blind rage during every encounter
>deliberately ignore kreias teachings
>call her an old hag every chance i get
>after defeating her on malachor don't talk to her just kill her immediately
That's the only way I can get any satisfaction out of her as a character.

Charge up her loading ramp? YES.

>Morality works in 1/0 and white/black binary systems, didn't you know?
Someone missed the point.

she didn't even try to kill them
she inflicted upon them what they inflicted upon the exile
their deaths were entirely due to their own weakness

>still arguing about an unfinished and heavily rushed 17 year old game
Surely you've got better things to do.

on Yea Forums ? no way

yeah well no one's arguing about how cute master vash is so it makes sense

>>still arguing about an unfinished, heavily rushed but well written 17 year old game
ftfy

force rots your brain unironically, that's why you're supposed to either purposely die or posses someone

Revan understood KOTOR 3

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shes a schizo

Morality is black and white. It is objectively morally good to do an act charity even if it does result in that person getting mugged. You're confusing morality with ethics.

>Jedi and Sith cunts for different reasons
>People in the middle are still cunts for even more reasons
Fuck it, the force is just gay and anyone who uses it is a cunt; been shooting people for thousands of years and it's worked just fine why do you need some gay telepathy and a lightstick

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what was the best planet in the game and why was it dxun and onderon?

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fuck off atton

As interesting as her ideas are her apprentice showed us pretty clearly what happens to an universe devoid of the Force, you're fucking dead and not everyone gets to become a Force zombie like the Exile.
And even if they were they would die anyways because even force zombies need the leech the force off others to survive.
Her entire ideology of killing the Force is simply not achievable, the best she could hope for was for the Exile to create an enclave of force sensitive "insensitives" to police its use and reduce its influence to the universe to the bare minimum, which I think was her final aim.
But again, that's just a fancier way to create yet another order of Force busybodies interfering with the universe which is exactly what was she's trying to prevent.
She's basically gone mad with age and stubbornness and taking her ideals seriously means you truly have understood nothing about them and how both stupid and dangerous they truly are.

Enter the Yuuzhan Vong, who were the main villains in the ongoing novels when those games were written and which were directly hinted at in KotOR by Canderous.

Also, a True Sith empire living beyond the edge of the Galaxy? Revan and the Exile going off to fight them alone? Pretty sure Obsidian were planning on having the Exile cut the Sith off from the force permanently in a potential KotOR 3, who would millennias later turn into the Vong.

kreia had also kinda been broken by the fact that shes been to literally every part of the force and got the shit kicked out of her and was regarded as a failure

Using sith alchemy to create an unimaginably horrifying beast is more fun than building a robot. Shocking someone with the force is more fun than using a bothan stun stick. Ripping open an impenetrable door with the force is more fun than lobbing a thermal detonator at it.

My point is, they didn't even have the time to completely write it with that retarded deadline, did they? Yet you still argue despite it having gaps bigger than your mom's ass.

You know the game has been restored for over a decade, right?

Always thought she was a twi'lek.

because
youtube.com/watch?v=FWdCpYse1Es

>My point is, they didn't even have the time to completely write it with that retarded deadline, did they?
Never really thought Chris Avellone was quite the brilliant writer most gamers seem to but one thing that man can do is write something fairly decent impressively fast. That man can just churn it out.

>She killed them to prove them wrong.
Wrong.

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youtube.com/watch?v=Nx6_gdBqWZI

She cut them from the Force just like they planned to do to the Exile, she didn't kill them. That they died from it was due to their own weakness. As she's drilled into your hear since the beginning of the game, Jedi rely on the Force far too much to a point where they depend on it. "Take it away, and what remains?" In many ways, non-Force users are more capable and strong than Jedi or Sith.

I remember the original thread and I never even knew there was a video of it. Nice.

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Like handmaiden but no echani tomboyishness and more crazy and like Visas.

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>In many ways, non-Force users are more capable and strong than Jedi or Sith.
That's such a fucking load of shit. It's like saying a man in a wheelchair is in many ways more capable than someone with the use of their legs. They have the force. They use it. What's the fucking problem? They should just not? Artificially cripple yourself for... some... reason.. or something? It's never really explained or justified. It's just said as if it's something deep and meaningful. It's not. It's nonsense.

Did you even play this game? The three villains are characters that all have become slavishly reliant on the Force to their detriment
>lord of hunger, who is literally incapable of sating his greed due to his reliance on the Force
>lord of pain, who is in constant agony and wants to die but the Force keeps him alive in perpetual torment
>lord of betrayal, who explicitly states that her sight has atrophied because of her obsession with the Force's mysteries, and despite bitching about the will of the Force still is utterly devoted to using it

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You wouldn't say "You should never ever eat anything because becoming obese is a possibility", would you? You'd certainly never say "A man starving to death is in many ways more capable and stronger than a well fed man because the man starving to death is not obese." Kreia's "lessons" are nonsense. You can be cut off from the force at any time? So what? I could be crippled in a car accident tomorrow. Should I stop using my legs right now for that reason? Her bullshit is beyond fucking stupid. And it's meant to be. Again, she's the villain. She's a bitter crazy old lady with delusions of grandeur. That's why you kill her ass in the end. Do you people actually think her crap is deep and meaningful?

Like the prequels, fans regard KOTOR2 as an evil, satanic, work because it dares to question the fundamental assumptions of the rest of the star wars EU (and movies).
They'll never get over it, because the works are unassailable without first conceding that "good guys" of star wars are really dumb and evil.

The more apt metaphor would be someone that intentionally gets into a wheelchair and lets their legs atrophy.
"Wuhh, why would I have to get out of the chair? I have it, I use it, what's the problem? Look at my sick wheelies, couldn't do that with legs lmao"

It doesn't take a genius to notice children's media is simplistic. It's kind of meant to be. It's for kids. Everyone knows already. Nobody cares. Only a pseudo-intellectual fucktard thinks he's being really clever when he deconstructs children's media.

Don't you fucking dare sullying KotOR2 with prequel shit.

Are you actually trying to argue utilizing the force is akin to deliberately crippling yourself? What people can achieve with the force is far beyond what they can without it. Surely that goes without saying?

Star wars is pretty good if you actually take the time to analyse it (or "deconstruct" or whatever you think that word means) though. For "childrens movies" there's a lot of philosophy, religion, and politics in it that are not just window dressing, but makes a larger point.

KOTOR2 is the only piece of star wars media that actually takes a critical look at star wars.

It's the point of KOTOR2 that you shouldn't be reliant on one thing and think yourself "complete" because of it.
Arrogance and hypocrisy (springing from a that lack of self-reflection) is a major theme of the star wars movies: specifically as a criticism of the Jedi and how they see being able to do cool backflips as a sign that they're chosen by God and can do no wrong.

>Trains and heals the Exile's Space PTSD
>Reinvigorates the Jedi Order, leading to thousands of years of peace (TOR isn't canon, fuck TOR)
>Springs a vast and delicate trap that acts as the only possible way to stop a world devouring monster from destroying all life
>Draws all the Sith into the open to be destroyed by the Exile, ending their threat for thousands of years
>Revives Hanhar, which is kind of a dick move
Ah yes, "villain".

That's the gist of Kreia's argument, essentially. She's been wronged by every side of the Force and feels it twists things instead of truly helping. It comes from a place of pain, sure, but there are still valid points to her argument. Where a non-force user can be cut from the Force and still essentially function the same, and the Exile was cut from the Force and managed to live through it, the Jedi masters died instantly from being cut as they were too reliant on it.

>KOTOR2 is the only piece of star wars media that actually takes a critical look at star wars.
Apart from the prequels obviously*

>That's the gist of Kreia's argument
And she's wrong. That's my point. For some reason I don't understand people seem to just take for granted Kreia is definitely right. That don't analyze her position at all. If you do it's very obvious it's mostly a load of bullshit.
>the Jedi masters died instantly from being cut as they were too reliant on it
And they're reliant on oxygen too. She could have suffocated them. Is that some sort of failing on their part? The need to breath? This is not some great gotcha. It doesn't even so much as count as a Faustian bargain or something. Not that Star Wars didn't already has that covered anyway. It's basically what the dark side of the force is.

>Springs a vast and delicate trap that acts as the only possible way to stop a world devouring monster from destroying all life
It still staggers me that people are too dumb to get this part.

>exile does literally all of the work
>Kreia: "I did this."

>"from the moment you awoke, I have used you. I have used you so that you might become strong, stronger than I. I used you to keep the Lords of the Sith from condemning the galaxy to death with their power unchecked. I used you to lure them to Telos, where they could be, at last, fought and killed. I used you to reveal Atris’ corruption, so that her teachings could be ended before they began. I used you to gather the Jedi so they could be destroyed. And I used you to make those who wounded me reveal themselves, so they could be killed by the Republic"
>did nothing

Attractive enough for General Yusanis to cheat on his wife for her.

"She's wrong lmao" isn't actually refuting the argument user, and using the force is not something natural like breathing, it takes years to master that skill.
On that point, there are three interpretations on how the force works, two from the OT (anyone can learn it if they spend years mastering it/it's all just bullshit and hocus-pocus simple tricks and nonsense), and one from the PT, it's just a genetic mutation (effectively X-men powers), that still requires lots of time and effort to hone.

Again, this cannot be divorced from the fact that they're assigning and deriving religious and moral authority from and to these powers, that's where the real critique comes in.

She does admit it.
On the other hand, she has, for a second time, trained a student who went on to absurdly powerful mastery of the force, and delet sith lords. So she's got that going for her.

kotor 2 is last jedi if it was good

Was getting caught part of her master plan?

The Dxun jungle had the best atmosphere in all of Star Wars, that's why.

OF COURSE

honestly, yeah, jesus
kinda fucked up that it came out on a shoestring budget and hideous timecrunch and was still better than the mouse's billion dollar IP handling

Force is a tool, but jedi/sith completely rely on it for everything they do.
Whats worse, its semi sentient, so both of them are essentially slaves to it.
Remove its influence and even a mighty jedi would fall to a reasonably skilled mook.

>anything that requires effort to achieve shouldn't be attempted because once you've attained that ability it becomes a disability because... it just does, okay?
right
>Again, this cannot be divorced from the fact that they're assigning and deriving religious and moral authority from and to these powers, that's where the real critique comes in.
Kreia is literally doing the exact same shit.

If you rely on cheese in vidya you will use it as a crutch and be shit when you don't have it is what Kreia was saying.
For zoomers to easily understand, you didn't beat the game if you used the force.

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>Was getting caught part of her master plan?
Yes, and killed.

>you are greater than any I have ever trained. By killing me here you have rewarded me more than you could possibly know.

Crashing the force... WITH NO SURVIVORS

The point is that you can survive from being cut off from the force though (like the exile). If people were able to live without oxygen but some of them chose to then your argument would make more sense. Kreia's argument is that relying on an external and definitely not always benevolent force is not at all a good idea.

You're an old girl

Utilizing the force is not a cheat code in video games. It requires great effort to have that ability. It's fascinating to me that people are genuinely arguing training to become good at something is bad and you should just not ever get good at anything or something? I'm not actually sure what is supposed to be the "right" thing here. Kreia never practices what she preaches. The exile sure as shit didn't. The game is just nonsense. It has way more holes than the original star wars lore did.

you're as bad as the bronies, fucking faggot

>And they're reliant on oxygen too
Oxygen is required to live, using the Force isn't. They made a conscious choice of becoming reliant and dependent on it, and they act all arrogant and mightier than thou because of it. Kreia's point is that without it, they're nothing. Even worse, they can not even live without it any longer, like a drug almost.

>>anything that requires effort to achieve shouldn't be attempted because once you've attained that ability it becomes a disability because... it just does, okay?
Are you having trouble user? You seem to be intentionally misconstruing my argument :)

Why do you think it means when Kreia is (rightly, I might add) criticizing the republic and the jedi for being arrogant and set in their ways?
In the specific case of the force, she's criticizing Jedi for being dependent on it, and the republic for being dependent on the Jedi, and the broader point is against complacency and stagnation: that they feel that they've figured out everything, it's the end of history, we just have to implement our wonderful ideas (even though they keep failing horribly).

The specific case of being dependent on the force is just a part of this broader argument, and it works just as well against the whole of the star wars EU and the fandom, it just keeps going around in circles and never leaving its safe space of riffing (badly) off the movies for all eternity.

The force is a tool to be utilized. It's not inherently good. It's not inherently bad. This is established in the first fucking film where they talk about things like "the dark side of the force" and exchanges like
>You mean it controls your actions?
>Partially. But it also obeys your commands.
This great criticism of Star Wars by KOTOR2 is not even a thing in Star Wars in the first place.

The force is a tool to be utilized, I agree. And the Jedi, in Kreia's eyes, use it as a crutch- so much that when it's stripped from them they fucking die.
Unlike the Exile who overcomes his lack of the Force.