Elden Ring

You can use fast ranged weapons to force them to move because they will do scripted dodge animations that close distance. It's stupid and bad design but we can use it for that at least.

It really makes bossfights feel more like minigames with restrictions than a real fight. It removes the panic of healing at a bad time too. In old games seeing the boss charge up a dash move while I'm healing made me shit my pants, but in ER it's a given.

>Enemy clearly doesn't move until after the healing glow
>INPUT READING
unironically kys

I couldn’t get him to do this in my game so I’m still mad but for the opposite reasons

Filtered

>use ranged weapon at godrick
>he will permanently roll around in a circle

>getting one-shot
Vigor my nigger.

Speaking of inputs, does this game not feel like it has some sort of wonky input queuing or animations? I have been getting fucked by inputs not working moreso than any other Souls game. Not sure what precisely they changed.

>dodge heavy attack
>it's estus time
>slightly scared the boss will cancel his recovery and sperg out anyway
this game is fucking with my feelings

bosses will still sperg out even if they don't catch you with the input read

>use marionette soldiers at Red Wolf of Radagon
>he spazzes the fuck out and never attacks since he needs to dodge every single arrow

Not him, but I went to Dragonbarrow super early and refused to turn around. Getting one-shotted was a given with everything there.

>This blatantly flawed and unfair design is something Yea Forums would relentlessly mock, not praise.
It's okay to be a contrarian when it serves the purpose of the Fromsoft cult.

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Oh yeah that's the "bad game design."
It's a stupid noob trap. That's all these games are.
>heal
>get hit
>"oh he's input reading so I have to heal during recovery animations"
>don't have that issue every again
Wow so hard. So cool. So innovative. You really got me Miyazaki. I've learned that you like BS programming and now you won't catch me with your shit again. Such game design. Game of the year.

I know Crucible Knights are so aggressive that you can't drink even after parrying and riposting them.

>"oh he's input reading so I have to heal during recovery animations"
except when enemies cancel recovery to punish you, like that funny video of the big wizard guy in the Haligtree.

>just heal during recovery animations!
What recovey animation?
You must have imagined it.

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I think I will drop Elden Ring. I just killed Maliketh with no gimmick, just a shitty two-handed weapon, and the game is basically "Punch Out": you memorize the enemy's pattern and then give the same response to each of his attacks in the right timing to eventually have time to punish him in a counterattack. It's sheer memorization and timing when you play without "tools" for noobs, which is not the best design. Good games, at least in my conception, are those that like a real life sport or fight, allow you to use not only knowledge and technique but also your instincts, making the battles dynamic, forcing the player to go adapt in real time, changing the approach, trying creative things in the middle of the combat, etc.
Elden Ring has none of this. It is a game where attacks are unpredictable so you have no solution but to observe, learn and then apply what you have learned in the right timing.

>dropping after Maliketh
might as well get it over with

You're just bad.

>you memorize the enemy's pattern and then give the same response to each of his attacks in the right timing to eventually have time to punish him in a counterattack.
you just described every single SoulsBourne game

Post the video where you kill Kalimeth without any "tools, otherwise I will consider you a noob by default.

I tried this and it didn't work

it doesn't work anymore I tried because I felt like being lazy and getting bloodhound step early

How...? When the NPCs heal I do the same thing to them. It would actually be more robotic not to attack you

See Every game is the same. Run around and find 3-4 safe punishes, hit the enemy once during them, then wait for those punishes again. Once you learn that the games genuinely get boring. I felt the same as at almost exactly the same time. I just slogged through the last couple fights to finish the game. It wasn't fun once I saw the man behind the curtain.

the game automatically makes you attack when an npc heals?

>This blatantly flawed and unfair design
While this is the case with fighting games, it is an necessary evil without actual real AI. It is how all games need to be to counter

>are those that like a real life sport or fight, allow you to use not only knowledge and technique but also your instincts, making the battles dynamic, forcing the player to go adapt in real time, changing the approach, trying creative things in the middle of the combat, etc.
What are some games like this that are not multiplayer? Not trying to bait, im interested.

>I think I will drop Elden Ring. I just killed Maliketh with no gimmick
Are you fucking spying on me you piece of shit? I legit thought the exact same thing right after beating Maliketh.
I finished the game since I was told there were only a few bosses left after that though.

You're fucking retarded.
What would make you happy? If the enemy had an arbitrary delay before attacking you when you heal, to simulate human reaction time?

if they finished the game and didn't rely on such lazy programming

>He has nothing but ambiguous statements and doesn't expand on anything he said, completely ignores any and all arguments
And nobody was shocked.

That's not what he said. He said that the enemy being scripted to immediately attack you IF you heal is bad.
The enemy should just stick to the way it's supposed to fight.

Why is that bad, though? Why is the enemy punishing you for healing without an opening a bad thing? This has been a thing since long before Elden Ring.

what's so hard about polishing a game before release

Because the enemy goes out of his habitual pattern, which you learnt through the battle because of one of your actions?
If it was a mechanic that the game advertised as part of most of the enemies's AI, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
There's also those shitty attack baits that last for 15 seconds.

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Hate how you never know when the Tree Sentinels will cancel into their horse bodyslam.

>Input reading bad because... um... LOOK IT EXPOSES ME AS A SHITTER AND THAT CAN'T HAPPEN OKAY!?

There is literally nothing 'unpolished' about enemy AI reacting to the player's actions.
>Because the enemy goes out of his habitual pattern, which you learnt through the battle because of one of your actions?
Punishing the player for healing without an opening IS part of the habitual pattern, brainlets just can't get that through their thick fucking heads.
>If it was a mechanic that the game advertised as part of most of the enemies's AI, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
This is the most retarded thing I've heard on the subject yet. The game teaches you that healing carelessly will be punished the first 2 times it does it to you. Any time you get fucked while healing afterward is 10,000% your fault.

>after the healing glow
It's the second press of the button actually. If he only did one drink the guy would still stand there doing nothing.

>Punishing the player for healing without an opening IS part of the habitual pattern
I never said it wasn't, if you decide to heal while the boss is mid-way into a combo or something, it's obviously on you.
The problem is when he immediately stops everything he's doing to attack you because he input read that you used an estus flask, which is what we're talking about and what the problem with input reading is.

>if you decide to heal while the boss is mid-way into a combo or something, it's obviously on you.
Did you even play the fucking game? This is the time you SHOULD be healing, because the boss is in the middle of another attack and can't punish you.
>The problem is when he immediately stops everything he's doing to attack you because he input read that you used an estus flask, which is what we're talking about
This literally doesn't happen. As I stated, the appropriate time to heal is when the enemy is preoccupied. The only time they 'input read' and punish the player for healing is if you try to heal when the enemy is in neutral, ie when they're not doing anything.

>There is literally nothing 'unpolished' about enemy AI
lol okay

How do people not remember this being an enemy quirk all the way back to at least DS1?

>lmao I'll just clip out a piece of his sentence and act like that's what he said, nobody will notice!
Dumb fuck can't argue, so he lies instead. Many such cases.

>This literally doesn't happen
Use your summon, wait for the boss to attack it. When you drink they WILL stop what they're doing and run towards you as long as the summon doesn't re-agro them.

Faggot. Might as well give every enemy buckler and give them 100% chance to parry you because why not

Sekiro has a nice back-and-forth dynamic because of the posture system. Every single second you're in melee with the boss is progress towards killing them, and every single second you're not is a waste. It's not just about looking for openings, because every single parry is progress. Bosses do different combos based on whether or not you parry or perfect parry a move, and constantly staying on their ass makes them easier to manage because they're less likely to use gap closers, charged attacks and ranged attacks. It's a simple game, but its simplicity is satisfying.

>IF YOU'RE OK WITH THIS THEN WHY DON'T WE JUST DO THIS COMPLETELY UNRELATED AND WAY MORE EXTREME THING?? WOULD YOU BE HAPPY THEN??
NTA, but you're a fucking dumbass.

I think the best example is racing simulators, but I think this comparison is a bit unfair because good simulators have real depth and are stupidly complex games, while Elden Ring is a rather simplistic game.
Anyway, in simulators you have something extremely intuitive, you can carry your knowledge from car to car, from track to track, even from game to game, because there are no "catches" like in Elden Ring. You develop a skill that just works and the process after that is just honing that skill which can take years.
The races are always dynamic and you are always adapting in real time, changing approaches, etc., even if you are playing against simplified AIs.

You're right a better comparison would simply be every enemy that has a weapon that can parry does so when you swing instead of giving things like lobsters bucklers.

Not those Anons, but I do want to mention that everybody gets so caught up on the estus reaction that they really ignore the actually annoying part. If a boss is neutral you're generally not allowed to attack first. In most cases unless you have a quick ranged attack or really fast melee weapon you'll get punished for attacking the boss in its neutral state. This just isn't fun gameplay when sometimes the bosses will simply walk around waiting for you to make the mistake of wanting to attack. Lots of Elden Ring bosses do it. It's just boring.

I was saying in that exact reply that it wasn't an enemy quirk but a chance thing. In ER estus punish is essentially guaranteed and removes that panic.

>Punishing the player for being a retard and healing when the enemy isn't doing anything, leaving them with every ability to punish them, is the same as the enemy having a 100% reliable way to counter every attack you make
Just admit you're retarded.

How is attacking when the enemy isn't doing anything, leaving them with every ability to punish them different from healing when the enemy isn't doing anything, leaving them with every ability to punish them

Some classic FPS also have a very dynamic gameplay even if the AI is braindead like Doom and Serious Sam. If you play well-made maps where there is a clever combination of monsters, you are always using your knowledge and instinct to try to solve the most complex situations. Because of the attrition that exists in these games (and that was discarded in Doom Eternal, by the way), you are always needing to adjust your approach in the middle of the battle, if you spent more rockets than you should have to kill a certain enemy, you will have to figure out an alternative way to kill the next wave, if you took more damage than you should have in the beginning of the battle, you will have to try a more defensive posture in the next one, etc. None of this depth exists in Elden Ring.

it just needs to be delayed based on enemy type to be realistic
>agile enemies, take .2-.3 seconds from start of animation
>slow clunky ones take .5-.7 seconds from start of animation
there, fair and balanced

>Give npc invader a shield with ability to parry, he whiffs the parry and gets punished
Good design. Soul.
>Give npc ranged attack that he automatically uses thanks to input reading. Every. Single. Time
Bad and lazy design. Soulless

All the souls games had input reading. Bosses would react differently if you guarded, or attacked, or healed. It was just way more subtle and involved a lot of RNG, basically something like "increase chance of attack A by 20% if player uses item". It was certainly a lot more subtle than the shit Elden Ring does.

If you want to stick to FS games, Armored Core gives you way more chances to adjust on the fly. Hades and Binding Of Isaac both come to mind as "Here's something new, react accordingly." Half Life series is always a shoe-in for single player recommendations. In all honesty this series biggest issue is the whole "reset to one" style of play. You get hit? Get up, back up, heal, reset. Wait for the punish. Do it again. Oh they did something new? LOL GOTCHA! Back to square one! It has to try to trick you into dying because otherwise the game state only changes for a couple seconds at a time. Something about the experience is just so procedural and robotic. If I get hit in Skyrim (+1 Todd Howard Credit) for example, I do heal, but also the game state feels notably different than a second ago. Maybe I'm staggered, the enemy is now closer and dealing with that feels different depending on my build. I'm glad they're close because I use 2 handed swords. I'm disappointed because I missed my block on my shield. I'm panicked because I use a bow and I dont want to fight this way. In SoulsBorne they up the damage so much they can't do this. The combat has to break and stop, otherwise you would die in every fight so easily. They actually made the game less interesting by trying to make it hard. I don't mean to shit on these games too hard, I enjoyed Elden Ring at first, but the magic fades.

.... what? Are you implying that the game is bad because every enemy isn't controlled by a human?

The key to sekiro is still just memorization and timing though. Memorize the attack patterns of enemies and use the appropiate response (parry, mikiri) and just mash r1 when they are not attacking, the battles don't feel that much more dynamic than souls imo.

Yes every game has input reading. No one cars.
The problem every has is push button > do single action instantly

>There is literally nothing 'unpolished' about enemy AI reacting to the player's actions.
user we saw the boss kill himself in the OP because of it

>attacking when the enemy isn't doing anything, leaving them with every ability to punish them
Oh right, I forgot that hitstun just doesn't exist in this game!!!
>>he whiffs the parry and gets punished
This isn't what the other user said. He said the enemy would parry you 100% of the time.
>>Give npc ranged attack that he automatically uses thanks to input reading. Every. Single. Time
>An enemy using the options available to them to punish a retard healing in front of them is a bad thing
filtered.

>the first guy was implying him reacting to enemies is the same as input reading, so I wouldn't be surprised there's somebody even more retarded than him

I could buy that. Now rhat I think about it ER boss design really does feels like the rng for boss's reactions are not properly tuned.

>I forgot that hitstun just doesn't exist in this game
So you admit you didn't play the game

>The problem is when he immediately stops everything he's doing to attack you because he input read that you used an estus flask
This is not possible

Have you not played the game?

>He thinks enemies can't be staggered or hitstunned
>"You didn't play the game"
Nice projection.

0/10, last (you) enjoy doing this for 5 more years though

Not from one hit, no. Unless you use the really slow weapons in which case they should rightfully parry it with their dinner fork and insta kill reposte you.

aren't you the same guy every thread? aren't you the guy who is doing this for free for over a month?

>He thinks you can parry colossal weapons
So you really didn't play the game, huh.

>what happened? This blatantly flawed and unfair design is something Yea Forums would relentlessly mock, not praise.
It's in every souls game and the majority of the games you play. You just never noticed it because nobody on the internet told you to get mad about another game you don't play.
>b-b-but they don't read inputs, they react to your state-
like Elden Ring, which reacts to the end of your casting animation, or your flask animation. There is no difference between hundreds of other games you praise.

You play games where the AI ignores fog of war, spawns units outside of your view, ignores central mechanics that bog you down, and increase the stats of their units by 20% which would otherwise be identical to your own, and you're complaining that you get hit every time you drink your flask when standing adjacent to a boss who is standing ready to attack.

I'm here to kill the Elden Beast. That's my mission.

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Enemies literally stop everything to attack you when you estus tho. You gotta either had insane distance from them or wait for a big plunge or finishing move.
If they start doing a combo you've seen a thousand times and heal at a safe distance they'll instantly interupt it and do their gap closer/lounge at you.

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These niggers are the most blatant and I don't feel guilty for rot breathing them.

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I killed them before they completed their first wing when I invaded them so I never had the chance to find out