Ladyboys and gentlemen of Yea Forums, we are here today in light of accusations peddled against Queen Marika, that she was a collaborator in the assassination of Godwyn the Golden. This topic has plagued and derailed threads of discussion on multiple occasions, and I am here today to prove that this theory should no longer be considered a serious topic in any subsequent forums.
To begin, we'll examine the relationship between Marika and the Black Knives, the culprits of the plot. The opposition believes that the BK armor description, >"The assassins that carried out the deeds of the Night of the Black Knives were all women, and rumored to be Numen who had close ties with Marika herself." implicates Queen Marika as Lunar Princess Ranni's collaborator. Yet this is a misconception, based solely on the phrase "close ties". In the first place, "close ties" does not indicate the nature of the relationship; in the second, there is evidence that the Black Knives would have actually held animosity towards Marika.
The Numen who made up the BKs, according to Sorcerer Rogier, hailed from the Eternal City. The same Eternal City that after refusing to adhere to Marika's Golden Order, was destroyed by the meteor housing Astel, which though unconfirmable, was at least BELIEVED by the general populace to be due to the Greater Will. In other words, despite being Numen herself, Queen Marika's allegiance was in opposition to her heritage, and puts her at odds with the BKs.
As the item description in question is itself vague in nature, regarding Marika's ties as a mere rumor and being unspecific about the nature of these ties, I believe that the interpretation that these ties were positive is wholly false, and thus cannot be used to implicate Marika in the crime.
The only other evidence connecting Marika to the Black Knives is the fighting style of Kindling Maiden Melina, who uses an identical fighting style. However, this is a non-factor; while the possibility certainly exists that Marika taught the BKs a particular way to fight, with what evidence is available to us, it is EQUALLY likely that said fighting style is one traditional to the Numen as a whole. As either possibility is unprovable, this evidence cannot be used to establish Marika’s relationship with the BKs.
Moving on, we look at how Queen Marika stands to benefit from her son’s assassination. And the answer is, she does not. In order to implicate her in the act of filicide, there would need to be a motive to do so. Godwyn’s death is irrelevant to her plan of creating the Tarnished, and if you assume that she DID kill him, that would also mean the smashing of the Elden Ring was not a spur of the moment act driven by emotion, but premeditated. And yet, Godwyn’s death does not stand to affect said shattering, or the subsequent Shattering, in any significant way, as it stands that the Elden Beast would still need to be faced, and the Elden Ring repaired regardless of who was doing it.
If you propose the benefit was the creation of the Rune of Death, this is illogical on the basis that Marika herself would have much easier access to said rune and superior knowledge of its defenses seeing as she was the one who sealed it away, as opposed to getting Princess Ranni to steal it. Were Ranni to fail, the Baleful Shadow Maliketh would have been placed on higher alert, making Destined Death harder to steal afterwards. This also plays into the Night of Black Knives itself, with Ash Summon Tiche establishing that the act of escaping the city was no easy task, with Tiche herself dying in the process. Were Marika complicit in the assassination, one would expect security to be lightened in order for the killing to go smoothly, yet this is not the case.
In short, it is illogical and absurd to believe that Marika would have partaken in Ranni’s scheme, even solely on the logic behind her theoretical motive and reaped benefits. Finally, a certain quote has recently emerged pointing to Queen Marika’s feelings towards her children: >In Marika's own words. >Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. >Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. >But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. >Amounting only to sacrifices... While advocates of the collaborator theory deem this as evidence that Marika was willing to sacrifice her children and thus Godwyn, this is erroneous. Knowing neither the context or the timeframe, you cannot definitively interpret her words as such. For example, seeing as we know her plan regarding the Tarnished had been in the works for a long period of time, this statement could be read as her telling her children to clean up the mess of the imminent Shattering before they become forsaken and act as ‘sacrifices’ for the Tarnished that would eventually arrive. Now that isn’t the only way to read it, but the main point is that this statement cannot be read in one specific way without context.
In conclusion, the primary evidence brought against Marika that implicates her as a collaborator in the NoBKs in fact does not implicate her at all. Is it possible she did collaborate with Ranni? Certainly, no evidence presented establishes her involvement as an IMPOSSIBILITY. But is it feasible with what we have access to in the game? The answer is “no”. I therefore ask that Yea Forums hereby deem this theory “retarded fanfiction” until substantial proof that firmly implicates Queen Marika’s involvement is unearthed.
>The Numen who made up the BKs, according to Sorcerer Rogier, hailed from the Eternal City Stopped reading right there Nox aren't numen
Elijah Jackson
holy based
Jackson Hughes
Phoenix you’re so handsome and smart and correct, good job!
Isaiah Allen
He is right, Eternal city people are Numan.
Christian Powell
Please make this a copy pasta.
Nolan White
You recall our conversation about the Night of the Black Knives, yes? They say the assassins who carried out the deed were scions of the Eternal City. A group entirely of women, arrayed in armour of silver under cloaks which fooled the eye. The knives they wielded though, were imparted with the power of the Rune of Death through sinister rite.
Nicholas Lee
Cope
Joseph Price
...
Justin Davis
The fucking numen rune outright says that they come from outside the lands between and you autists keep forcing this meme just because Rogier said so, like if he couldn't be wrong. Now say that they're nox because some ants drop them, say it faggot. >Rats are humans because they drop humanities Retard.
Lucas Turner
>coming from outside the country is mutually exclusive with currently living in it Retard
Wyatt Cruz
You can't just assume Rogier is wrong without any basis. The Numen Rune says they originated from outside the Lands Between, that doesn't stop them from settling in the Eternal City.
Julian Nguyen
why do people really want marika to be an evil kinslayer?
David Rodriguez
You fucking retard
Angel Reyes
It's Rannikeks Marika is already a three time genocider, if she was an evil kinslayer it wouldn't be odd, but she isn't looking at everything we have ingame
Lincoln Clark
Trannifags can't cope with the fact that their dollwife is an evil selfish cunt and deflect to Marika to protect Ranni's "honor"
This isn't even a translation issue. This is rannifags not understanding the definition of the world all, and I did it.
Landon Anderson
>You can't use the Japanese translation of what Ranni says because that makes her look good, english only! >this Japanese translation proves Ranni is pure evil This is considered a good argument, to some people
Ryan Moore
b-but muh mistranslation s-surely ranni only meant she made the knives and didn't do EVERYTHING
Liam Jones
ranni did it all, we knw
Ian Reed
Yeah, but people keep derailing lore threads to schizo about how Marika totally planned it with her
Wyatt Anderson
OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR! HEARSAY!
Jacob Morgan
But Marika started looking into the Golden Order, and its generally accepted that she started working against it. Your push that the BK's were opposition to Marika relies on that fact So if Marika was against the Golden Order, your entire argument falls apart?
Josiah Adams
Which plays into the argument about her motive and how she'd benefit. Even if she trusted in anyone enough to confide about her plan, that still means she had to have a reason to kill Godwyn. Whether the BKs or Ranni were aware of Marika's plot is unknown, but absolutely nothing in the game does imply that Ranni at least was aware of what Marika's intentions with the Golden Order were. The first part of the post is just to prove that the BK armor set doesn't implicate Marika by giving the BKs motive to act on their own.
Angel Gutierrez
dont the numen come outside the lands between, while the eternal city is in the lands between
Zachary Davis
...
Brayden Walker
>Ranni as one of the accomplice Uh-huh, we know that she pretty much said it herself.
Robert Gutierrez
Legendary ashen remains. Use to summon the spirit of Black Knife Tiche.
Tiche was one of the assassins who, on the night of the plot, imbued her black knife with the Rune of Death and slew Godwyn the Golden. She was the daughter of the Black Knife Ringleader, Alecto, and was killed protecting her mother during their flight from the royal capital.
Tiche imbued her own knife, how do you know Ranni was involved at all and wasn't just lying?
Owen Gray
>did it all >stole the rune >create the knives Still can't find the part where she admitted about killing Godwyn as usual ,lmao.
Benjamin Edwards
>She said she did it, book her, Lou >But Chief, the assassins are more connected to Marika... >Red Herring, Lou. Marika loved the Golden Order and the BK's hated it >But Chief, Marika was going against the Gold- >She said she did it Lou, we're not here to investigate. We're done here. Real fine police work, boys
The Golden Order, yes. However there is an alternative reading in which she is actually still serving the Greater Will, because the current Golden Order isn't necessarily the Greater Will's, will.
Brayden Turner
...
Liam Thompson
Falseflagging or just retards?
Jason Flores
>The Numen who made up the BKs, according to Sorcerer Rogier, hailed from the Eternal City. The same Eternal City that after refusing to adhere to Marika's Golden Order, was destroyed by the meteor housing Astel, which though unconfirmable, was at least BELIEVED by the general populace to be due to the Greater Will. In other words, despite being Numen herself, Queen Marika's allegiance was in opposition to her heritage, and puts her at odds with the BKs. Then you switch up the goalposts: >It doesn't matter that Marika was against the Golden Order, she's still for the Greater Will and the BKs are against the GW! Just gotta slide that headcannon over to cover whatever bare spots pop up, I get it.
Nathaniel Jones
I want to mating press my cute mentor, sellen
Jordan James
She said she stole the rune and create black knives? Yeah, she keep silent about Godwyn and the assassins but we knew about her part in The Black Night and she is indeed one of the accomplice. The question here is how many big shot were in on it? And who is the boss? We know Rykard was in on it and Marika was more or less very close with the assassins group.
Eli Perry
That's not me. was my response.
It's impossible to verify whether the BKs and Ranni were aware of how Marika felt towards the Golden Order, but nothing related to Ranni ever hints in the game that she had any inkling, so claiming she did is grasping in itself. What matters is that the Black Knives have a motive to work with Ranni on the matter against Marika, who STILL doesn't benefit from the assassination in any way even if she was complicit.
Liam Foster
Breh, I'm on your side here.
Nathaniel Morales
Marika clearly benefits if Ranni kills herself, then the Golden Order doesn't have an Empyrean to replace her with. Clearing Ranni off the table makes it so they need Marika to keep containing the Elden Ring.
They would have replaced Marika a while back if they could have.
Jacob Gray
And the more logical approach in that case would be to kill her herself instead of also meaninglessly sacrificing Godwyn. Marika holds all the power, she has easier access to the Rune of Death, it makes no sense to go along with all this just to see Ranni dead.
Elijah Morris
according to gideon, marika is the most despicable character in the setting. and gideon is all-knowing
James Myers
You seem to be coming from the assumption that Marika and Ranni would be against each other instead of working together towards their mutual goals. >Marika is generally against the Golden Order and wants to keep her position as God >Ranni is an Empyrean being groomed by the Two Fingers/Golden Order as a replacement Empyrean, and doesn't want to go along with this plan >Ranni starts investigating Nokron/previous groups that defied GW >Finds the Black Knives, who hear her out and let Marika know >They conspire together for the NoBK
Daniel Hernandez
>nobody else rp'd as Edgeworth with user Disappointed desu
Owen Peterson
I don't think Godwyn's death alone benefit anyone but with Godwyn and Ranni in a half dead state and this practically bring about the rise of those who live in death do benefit anti-Greater Will faction for sure.
Gabriel Gray
That’s certainly possible, but again my issue is that no other evidence supports the idea that Ranni was in league with Marika. As it stands, the proposition that they were working together is based entirely on the BK armor description which people interpreted as them being loyal to Marika and not merely having some form of relation. Do you have anything that can show Ranni and Marika were directly associated?
William Reed
I'm not that previous user, don't be a schizo. However in reference to your point consider this, >Golden Order is the power structure created and controlled by Marika >ostensibly the Greater Will is the higher power behind this Order, with Marika being the One True God (think God/Jesus Christian conception, Marika is the living incarnate of God) >people are not aware of the realities of the relationship between Marika and the Greater Will >therefore, to the Black Knives and the Eternal City, Marika = Greater Will = Golden Order, they are all synonymous and the BKs are against them all, when in actuality it's much more complicated This is exactly the kind of convoluted situation GRRM would write in.
Liam Kelly
No body said they are in on it together but the implication was Marika is closely relate to those group of assassins which in turn implied her hands on the black night, how much? We don't know. She may not involve in it at all or she can be the real culprit behind it herself and that's just our speculation but the implication was there.
Nathan Cook
Didn’t this hack get exposed for faking evidence? Get the fuck out of here
Cameron Gonzalez
I agree the possibility exists that she was a collaborator, she can't be the sole culprit because of how much involvement Ranni already has, I just don't believe it's feasible because you need multiple levels of assumptions to paint Marika as a collaborator. First by interpreting an unspecific line regarding the Black Knives as them being loyal to Marika, presuming Marika was complicit with Ranni's plan, and then her going through all these hoops just for the result of Ranni ending up unsuitable as an Empyrean candidate. It's possible, but not plausible unless future patches add more details to work with.
Owen Long
There isn't any in-game connection between Ranni and the Black Knives either, beyond making their knives and the "I'm behind the NoBK" text. Its implied that Ranni may have come across them trying to research Nokron, but I haven't seen anything concrete. The one thread we seem to have right now is pointing towards Marika, who also has anti-GO tendencies and she shares at least one major goal with Ranni, i.e. not wanting Ranni to ascend as the next god of the Elden Ring I think we're up in the air until we get more evidence to point one way or another.
Since in game we can see Ranni and her team (childhood friends and a rapist who moved in next door) and her long reach (I can see Nokron but I can't get into it) I don't think she has the leadership skills and powerful reach to fully orchestrate the whole assassination on her own.
Asher Rogers
>There isn't any in-game connection between Ranni and the Black Knives either, beyond making their knives and the "I'm behind the NoBK" text. Alecto is imprisoned at Ranni's church, the Black Knives are actively hunting her subordinates for some reason, she confesses to making knives (plural) which were immediately used for the NoBK. There's clearly some kind of connection, the relationship must have gone sour after their initial collaboration for whatever reason.
Liam Richardson
>Since in game we can see Ranni and her team (childhood friends and a rapist who moved in next door) and her long reach (I can see Nokron but I can't get into it) I don't think she has the leadership skills and powerful reach to fully orchestrate the whole assassination on her own. Not him, but you're forgetting that Ranni would have had her real body at that point, which can reasonably be assumed to be a lot more powerful than the doll she's living in. Doll Ranni has to nap for a while after exerting herself.
Thomas Brown
>for some reason, They're hunting them because Ranni had you raid their city and steal their Fingerslaying Blade.
Grayson Brooks
Iji has been wearing his Mirrorhelm since before that though, and when he takes it off, the BKs come after him. You going to Nokron being the cause doesn't seem right.
Jayden Young
The mirrorhelm is a literal tinfoil hat, the Greater Will is checked out of the Lands Between and has no direct influence on anybody, much less to the point of reading everyone's minds and somehow ordering assassins that hate it to go kill it's enemies.
Robert Stewart
It also wards off Finger influence according to the description
Ayden Perez
Ackshually, the Japanese text says that it attempts to. Not that it actually succeeds. It's a tinfoil hat
The weirdest and most annoying thing about Ranni's confession was she casually said something like "Yeah, bitch, I"'m behind it all, I stole dems rune and create those knives" and dead silent about Godwyn and The Black Knife gang. Yo, that was the most important detailed of it, did you do it or not, you fucking bitch?
Grayson Gonzalez
Sigh.
I hate being autistic.
so:
>"close ties" does not indicate the nature of the relationship This is simply untrue. "Close ties" is a phrase used to explicitly identify an entity as being aligned with another entity not only in terms of strength of bond, but also in duration of the relationship. This describes a positive relationship and lying about that should be embarrassing for you.
>In other words, despite being Numen herself, Queen Marika's allegiance was in opposition to her heritage, and puts her at odds with the BKs.
This does not serve as counter evidence for the claim that Marika held resentment against the Greater Will which is the asserted motivation for her sabotaging the Greater Will's designs. There is nothing to indicate the Greater Will took any actions to incite Marika's ire before the Eternal Cities were destroyed, which was necessarily after Marika ascended. The Night of Black Knives serving as the fruition of planning that began at this point is 100% consistent with this history.
> it is EQUALLY likely that said fighting style is one traditional to the Numen as a whole Conceded.
>And the answer is, she does not. Her wish to bring about the downfall of the Greater Will as an act of vengeance, which is the accusation, absolutely initiates the series of events that lead to the shattering, plunging the world into chaos. This destabilization was absolutely necessary in order to provide a Tarnished the opportunity to overthrow the Demigods and unite the Great Runes. Remember, leveling up is a narratively justified mechanic. You are canonically getting stronger and canonically begin as weak as you do. It would be reckless in the extreme to throw a fresh Tarnished into a world where he must contend with all of the Demigods, in a joint effort, at their peaks of strength, rebuffing him.
Jack Cook
Fucking translators
Jackson Watson
Ijis is even worse, his paranoia lead to him condemning his best friend and rannis brother to insanity and believing that Iji and Ranni both betrayed him.
James Ramirez
>This is simply untrue. "Close ties" is a phrase used to explicitly identify an entity as being aligned with another entity not only in terms of strength of bond, but also in duration of the relationship. This describes a positive relationship and lying about that should be embarrassing for you. Luke has close ties to Vader
Jackson Perez
Dude the whole fucking game is mistranslated in english. Everything is fucking opposite. Ranni ending literally turns her from a martyr into a sociopath with the shit western translation.
Michael Flores
The stated result of the first Demi-gods death would be to become the God of Death, maybe that was the original goal and Marika wanted her child to have power over death. The only problem is what would that accomplish? I have a head-cannon that she wanted to remain immortal but not have to rely on the Elden Ring and therefore the power of the Greater Will but it's iffy.
Mason Ward
cont
>Marika herself would have much easier access to said rune... This entire paragraph is conjecture in the extreme. The Greater Will is an Outer God, each and every one of which have been explicitly stated to have been more powerful than any entity in The Lands Between. Regards of who you blame for the Knight of Black Knives, it took an incredible amount of effort to half-kill one Demigod. Meanwhile the Greater Will is exterminating entire civilizations. The Lands Between are a bubble, with Marika being the highest being (full God) inside that bubble. The Greater Will, the Frenzied Flame, The Deathbirds patron, are all explicitly both outside the bubble and more powerful than those within. Concealing her involvement from the Greater Will would be of the utmost importance.
>Knowing neither the context or the timeframe, you cannot definitively interpret her words as such. Conceded that the final line of that passage >Amounting only to sacrifices... Does not definitively prove she was speaking of Godwyn's death. However, it should be noted that that is not the more important line in the passage. >Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. This line legitimizes the pursuit of Godhood by a group she refers to as "My children beloved." which either means all under her domain, possibly the Tarnished, or extremely literally: Her own children, the Demigods of the Shattering. Whichever it is, as it doesn't matter, this explicitly contradicts the wishes of the Greater Will, which is for there to be one God of the Lands Between, and it chose her. She is giving permission for multiple entities, as "children" is plural, to pursue Godhood, presumably in her stead.
Kevin Campbell
This makes it unambiguous that Marika was in conflict with the wishes of the Greater Will. She had every reason to resent the Greater Will for its actions against her Numen people. She possessed every reason and tool to instantiate the Night of Black Knives and she is guilty of doing so.
Luke has a complicated relationship with Vader that is both negative (he has extreme anger with regards to obi-wan / general empire actions) and positive (indeed he refuses to fight Vader explicitly because the man is his Father). Any component of that relationship referred to by the phrase "[their] close ties" is referring to the positive components of their relationship. You would not say "Goku has close ties to Frieza" simple because they antagonize each other. It is the positive familial connection between Luke and Vader that even makes that statement sensible at all.
Angel Wright
>You would not say "Goku has close ties to Frieza" simple because they antagonize each other. No, you’d be more likely to say “Goku has close ties with Vegeta”
Luke Wood
>You would not say "Goku has close ties to Frieza" simple because they antagonize each other. No, but you would say that because Frieza destroyed his home planet, his race, and killed his parents.
No, you wouldn't. This statement is an attempt at deception.
David Smith
>There is nothing to indicate the Greater Will took any actions to incite Marika's ire before the Eternal Cities were destroyed, which was necessarily after Marika ascended. The Night of Black Knives serving as the fruition of planning that began at this point is 100% consistent with this history. Acknowledged, I'm not claiming that this is necessarily what happened. I'm displaying that there is a way in which events could have played out that doesn't implicate Marika's complicity with the NoBKs despite people trying to read into the line of "close ties", which just pointed out the issue with. However, the problem ultimately is how the Night ended up playing out with a number of BKs being hounded with at least one dying and how Marika benefitted from it. Your claim is that the destabilization caused by the NoBKs was necessary for her Tarnished to stand a chance, but the death of Godwyn was not the key factor that led to the Shattering. The Shattering, which is distinct from the shattering of the Elden Ring, was the power struggle and war between Marika's children, and the primary reason for the subsequent destabilization of the Lands Between. For as little info we have on Godwyn, it's a stretch to argue that his death was required to force that instability in the Shattering. Godfrey certainly wouldn't require this opportunity you're suggesting.
>Concealing her involvement from the Greater Will would be of the utmost importance. I'll have to argue against this. The reason being that the smashing of the Elden Ring took place a short amount of time following the NoBKs. If Marika intended to smash the ring in such a short period of time after Godwyn's death, there would be no opportunity for the GW's conduits to punish her IF the plot was premediated. The GW is not omniscient and turned a blind eye to her divesting grace from the Tarnished, and everything we know about Outer Gods shows that they must work through avatars. cont
Ethan Gray
>This line legitimizes the pursuit of Godhood by a group she refers to as "My children beloved." which either means all under her domain, possibly the Tarnished, or extremely literally: Her own children, the Demigods of the Shattering. Whichever it is, as it doesn't matter, this explicitly contradicts the wishes of the Greater Will, which is for there to be one God of the Lands Between, and it chose her. She is giving permission for multiple entities, as "children" is plural, to pursue Godhood, presumably in her stead. Marika has been in opposition to the GW for a long period of time. I'm not arguing against that. However, assuming that the BKs are loyal to her and were always intending to undermine the GW with her does not make sense because Ranni shares the same ultimate goal, yet her relationship with the BKs turned sour after the NoBKs for an unknown reason, and she is still at odds with them despite sharing her ideals with Marika's. What's more, there is no indication ingame of the two having an association, which seems nonsensical if the two actually collaborated during the NoBKs for the purpose of harming the Greater Will. Marika MIGHT have had the means, but the means simply don't show that she had involvement in the assassination.
