I like Sonic Adventure 2 now

Silence, whore.

An entire game of just Sonic/Shadow with their Adventure 2 controls (minus putting EVERYTHING ON ONE FUCKING BUTTON) would be the shit.

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One reason I used to prefer SA1 over 2 is because I thought SA2 was a "holdforward" game, which was retarded as fuck. I sounded like some dipshit who complains about an arcade or arcade-style shmup being "too short" after bomb and credit-spamming through it.

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SA2 is a platformer masterpiece
>diverse music
>great story
>high skill ceiling gameplay with creative level design

anyone who says its garbage are the same people who can get behind jank from mario 64 and claim it as masterful

Yeah I'll be honest, I do find the mech & treasure hunting stages much more fun than I did before BUT if I were to fund a new Sonic it would just be that style polished as well as possible. Maybe have other playable characters, but with the same gameplay style.

I don't think the rest sucks like people say, but the Sonic/Shadow style is clearly the star.

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The thing I like the most about SA2's story is that lets you infer a lot of things. For example, when Eggman's throwing a fit after blowing up the moon, Shadow says, "our threats fell on deaf ears." The game doesn't tell us this, but you could deduce that no one is listening to Eggman because everybody is freaking the fuck out over the moon getting blown to bits.

The game honestly respects your intelligence enough to not have to spell everything out for you.

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Mario 64 is great too though. It just so happens that the epic gamer analyst crowd jizzes poz cum over Mario 64 endlessly while despising SA2 even though both showcase plenty of great design.

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>Eggman talking about his grandfather after the ark is teleported away
>sonic talking with rouge about shadow
>The piano kicks in
>Sayonara... Shadow the hedgehog

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the roll move was stupid as fuck

>jank from mario 64
you don't have the slightest idea of what you're fucking talking about, do you?

Ahem
>Yahooyahooyahyayayayyayaya Yahoo
And suddenly you're at the bowser level

dont get me wrong, i love mario 64 for what it did and i love the community behind the cool mods and stuff. but yeah thats what im getting at

>shitty camera
>turning is a bitch
>backwards longjump to victory
yeah ok dude

>high skill ceiling gameplay with creative level design
This is probably the best possible defense of these games. Just look at some videos of people actually playing it well:

youtube.com/watch?v=9-S6hLvZ4nI
youtube.com/watch?v=CJLs8gXveog
youtube.com/watch?v=CM3FbSALx5g

But yeah based Egoraptor 100%ed the game. Sure.
It can be useful.

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Whenever I get close to 100% on sa2 my save file gets deleted somehow and it's happened 3 times now, twice on xbox and once on steam

the speedruns for the treasure hunting stages are insane too

Yeah, but they are not fun to speedrun. Unless you enjoy memorizing every single emerald location and every single hint.

Still fun to play today despite "showing its age" just like SA2 is still fun to play despite "showing its age"

The catch is that "showing age" can imply both bad things and very good things. The idea that games ONLY get better and better over time, in every way, is beta "consume new product" shit.

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>but yeah thats what im getting at
i take it that having difficulties expressing yourself is a regular thing for you? it read like you were trying to take a potshot at mario 64. you're fuckin knackered

yeah absolutely, i was just pointing out the shit 64 had that doesnt give people justification for when sonic has those things

reads like a victim complex desu

didnt think my post would be perceived that way as i didnt say i hated mario 64 or thought of it any less than SA2 but i guess that goes on me i suppose

i dont think you know what means

i think you should shut the fuck up

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One interesting thing is how well-received SA2 is in Japan to this day, even user reviews that tend to be very finicky and far less "it's complete shit, 6/10" than anglo reviews.

What's more Famitsu readers voted it the 29th best game of all time... last year.

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considering sonic doesnt have the biggest audience in japan thats really cool

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>One interesting thing is how well-received SA2 is in Japan
all 5 japanese people who played SA2 liked it? color me surprised

>Sonic not popular in Japan
I've heard that a lot, but I do wonder if there are actual numbers to back it up or if it's the same sort of "fun fact" as "Cowboy Bebop wasn't popular in Japan".

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im sure theres an audience somewhere, but not to the extent in america among others. also sonic 06 was one of the more popular sonic games in japan more so because the artstyle and the story is unorthodox for a sonic narrative

I mean, Japan is tiny and America is big. Cowboy Bebop likely made more money in America but that's cuz being popular in America means significantly more fans than being popular in Japan.

I could see this being the case about Sonic though, because from my experience Japanese Sonic fans on social media & Pixiv tend to be the (mostly female) demographic that's really into western cartoon characters. On the other hand Sonic characters are basically a 90s-edgy version of 20s-30s American cartoon characters, so it could be that.

I'm skeptical cuz there are SO MANY examples of "America saved this Japanese franchise". Did you know Ghost Stories was actually very popular in Japan, and STILL IS? Its ratings were top 10 stuff and japs still draw fan art of it every day.

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>I'm skeptical cuz there are SO MANY examples of "America saved this Japanese franchise"
*that are factually inaccurate

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Cowboy bebop definitely felt like a show that fit americas demographic more than japans from the story and aesthetics. the size could be a factor though

Sonic and the genesis in general was more marketed towards america, so the intention is there with the results in placed

For ghost stories, wow i wasnt aware of this hearing that the dub can do anything with the anime because it wasnt that popular in japan

Nah Japan loved Bebop and to this day it's one of the most beloved series on the Japanese equivalent of Myanimelist (Anikore). American aesthetics are pretty much universal because America rules the world (Japan loves Lupin too and that one is US-inspired as hell).

And yeah Ghost Stories is a great example of "localizers" lying about shit. It's the Japanese equivalent of Goosebumps or Are You Afraid of the Dark; originally a series of books, got live action adaptations, yet the anime is the one that still gets fan art today.

Sources:
pixiv.net/en/artworks/79408837 (check the upload dates)
sakuhindb.com/janime/7_School_20ghost_20story/
web.archive.org/web/20051219062240/www.videor.co.jp/data/ratedata/backnum/2000/vol44.htm#comic
web.archive.org/web/20051219061128/http://www.videor.co.jp/data/ratedata/backnum/2000/vol45.htm#comic
web.archive.org/web/20051219064002/http://www.videor.co.jp/data/ratedata/backnum/2000/vol48.htm#comic (ratings)

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Also Anikore reviews, note the super positive one is the most upvoted and note how they are all recent anikore.jp/anime_review/330/ (note the 66.8 number is a general rating also affected by popularity - still quite high for a 20 year old show that's supposed to be a failure)

I should probably do this type of spergy research on Sonic

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its funny how you mention lupin iii as that has a huge following in japan, but in the us, not so much. sure its got localized plenty of times and on adult swim atm, but its no where near the popularity of shounen animes here, so it can always be the other way around for someone like sonic

but yeah that ghost stories stuff is pretty eye opening

It's the same reason I think the "getting Egoraptor for an official Big the Cat song" thing is really gay, US companies in charge of Japanese stuff are often dipshits and take this lameass condescending attitude

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the real ones know sonic adventure 1 and 2 were always good games

yeah the pr pisses me off too. I want them to take sonic seriously without relying on terrible writing and jokes by pontaff and classic elements.

There are so many earnest kids who like Sonic on the internet but they feel the need to appeal to the 20something wannabe irony bros who think saying "Sanic" is comedy gold

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it's fucking terrible

>50 posts
>12 IPs
>Most posts are OP talking to himself trying to justify gay shit
We get it, you were 10 when you played it and never went online so had no idea about the online discussion. So when you finally found out some dislike it by watching your favourite ecelebs you went mad and had to create dumb justifications Can you also stop spamming SA2 threads? It is pretty pointless when you will hand wave any criticism

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>It is pretty pointless when you will hand wave any criticism
Never argued about SA2 here until this thread, if you can call one post arguing.
>We get it, you were 10 when you played it and never went online so had no idea about the online discussion.
Got internet in 2003 and spent a bunch of time reading older shit. Nah, your made up past where this game got just as much shit in the early 2000s as it does now does not exist.

That bare leg, I'm gonna-
>master

We love Sonic Adventure

>but they're not actually unfair or poorly designed. Once again, if you take your time with them, you won't even need to memorize the locations to get A ranks. Simply knowing the level layouts well is enough most of the time.
What type of nonsensical justification is this? If you learn any game good or bad in and out then yeah you can complete levels easily. You could say the same for Sonic 06, the mach stages are a mess but if you were to play them 100 times and get them down you could make them look flawless. That doesn't make either well designed.

You can't just handwave the radar nerf as yeah that sucks, no it ruins how the levels work when you double the size while not doubling the content. Now you have bigger, emptier levels where you will go past a few emeralds without knowing. A few rings and lives doesn't make exploring these stages worth it, especially when stages like Security Hall are designed to waste your time. Maybe your get really excited about riding a turtle but that's about it in terms of content.

SA2 has a lot of style and has that old school sonic team firing all cylinders to create a soulful experience. The levels are bigger and faster than sa1 and the ranking system adds a lot of replay value. Sadly a lot of the non speed levels are poorly designed. If all emerald hunts were like pumpkin hill or dry lagoon, or all mech levels like cosmic wall or weapons bed, the game as a whole would be great. But not even all the speed levels are great. Pyramid cave, crazy gadget, and final chase are awful. Sky rail and metal harbor are to short. The forest levels, city escape, and final rush (which itself is probably peak 3D sonic) are nowhere near enough to carry an ENTIRE game.

I think the unleashed day levels are the best main sonic content in the entire series. Nailing a perfect run and watching normies struggle and curse at the game will always be satisfying.

My point is those levels aren't primarily difficult because of unfairness, poor control, glitches or anything of the sort. Yeah there's stuff worth improving and they're probably the most flawed part of the game, but there's not enough of it to say "I'm sucking because of poor design".

Up until last month or so I would've agreed 100% with you. I fucking despised those levels in my tweens/early teens and was happy to see that others found them just as annoying. But now I realize it was mostly my fault; I had no sense of orientation and simply wanted to speed through and "see the game".

I can't relate at all to finding the Rouge turtle level (Dry Lagoon was it?) "too big and empty", it's... actually pretty freaking tiny and has just enough platforming and varied level architecture to keep things interesting. I found a legit huge level like Meteor Herd really fun to navigate, finding myself climbing from the very bottom to the very top easier and faster as I went along. Pumpkin Hill was really fun and easy to navigate between the areas thanks to all the rockets lying around.

Based

Sa2 gets shit on due to a perfect storm of having non-sonic gameplay styles, sonic's ruined reputation after 06, and nostalgiatard e-celebs in their 30's who think everything that's not 2d is shit.

It's certainly a jank game, but it's nowhere near bad and it baffles me people think otherwise.

Eh, both SA titles, especially 1, are legitmately unpolished. I don't think calling them jank is an invalid complaint. "dated" or "aged" is a bit iffier though: SA1, certainly, but I don't think SA2 has aged poorly at all. SM64 and OOT have more obviously aged elements then either games and both get sucked off endlessly.

I also find it ironic people shit on the mechs for being slow/.unresponsive when they are actually a bit less so then mario in sm64.

I legitimately think Mario's poor physics in SM64 hold the game back significantly. Mario is just too unresponsive. It's still a landmark title and is solid today, but irt prevents it from being great, IMO..

Look up Spark the Electric Jester 2.

Not him but

>t ruins how the levels work

Aside from Security Hall and Aquatic mine, and I guess arguably Death Chamber/Egg Quarters and Mad Space,, no it fucking doesn't., and even then it's not really an issue on Aquatic mine, just inconvient, and it's almost always mituigated in Death Chamber/Egg Quarters if you use the hints. The gimped radar doesn't have any sort of dispropoinate impact beyond the change itself on the other stages.

And that change isn't even a big fucking deal. The entire point of the treasure stages are slower paced exploratory experiences. It's part of why they have the smooth rap/jazz. God forbid a slower paced exploratory level take 5-10 minutes.

It's less then ideal, but it doesn't "ruin" the stages by any means and them actually being designed around the playstyle makes them better then SA1's treasure stages, which were over too fast anyways.

Your assessments of the stages aren't wrong (aside from Metal Harbor, it's great even if it's short; pyramid cave is also good aside from the key gates), but that hardly makes the game bad overall.

Most of the mech and treasure stages are still "alright", there's only a few actually bad ones and as you note still also a few actually good ones.

The game lands a 6/10-7/10 average easily, and then you have the music, chao garden, missions, etc on top of that.

I did enjoy Final Chase personally, but... yeah, the other two are the worst Sonic/Shadow levels. I still had some fun with Pyramid Cave though, while Crazy Gadget is the only one I actually found to be shit.

Metal Harbor and Sky Rail are short but good and fun to perfect your run of.

The problem with the "Unleashed daytime style" that became the internet-approved 3D Sonic is that it's pretty damn far from Final Rush's "peak of 3D Sonic" you mentioned. It's not worse but it's so radically different it becomes an apples and oranges thing. The Unleashed style is like a racing game had babies with a platformer.

>they haven't watched the 2 hour narrative analyis of SA2, or even the shorter 20 minute tl;dr; which delves into the game's lore/subtext int he original japanese dialog and supplementary materials

youtube.com/watch?v=fPvtm9Ms
youtu.be/1ZJuLcakn3Y?t=655
info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Adventure_2_-_The_Truth_of_50_Years_Ago...

tldr

>GUN and the goverment aren't working together and GUN is feeding the goverment and military false information
>Rouge is the Goverment Agent the president's secterary mentions, who was hired to spy on GUN and Project Shadow
>Gerald Robotnik was studying the Angel Isle ruins and Chaos, hence the Artificial chaos enemies, the Chaos drives GUN robots uses, the Ark's inner architecture and the Ecipse Cannon's core/control center resembling ancient echidna stuff and using the Chaos Emeralds as power devices, etc. This is confirmed explictly in Sonic Battle, as well. While not proven, it's likely/possible that the Biolizard and Shadow were based on the Perfect Chaos and Super Sonic murals there
>In Japanese dialog and some supplementary materials/the Sonic X anime, it's implied shadow may not actually be the final finished version of the Ultimate Life Form that Gerald Robotnik made, and/or that in reality his memories might have been altered, either by Gerald to think Maria wanted revenge herself, or for him to think he was the final one when he wasn't, or that he IS the final one but that he's not the one who knew maria and those memories were implanted
>The most intriguing possibility is implied by that, but also by shadow saying sonic isn't just a normal hedgeog before their final battle, dialog during the Final Hazard fight; where Shadow is having trouble keeping his super form, up, and says Sonic is the ultimate life form, either Sonic being the final result of Project Shadow; or just that he was prophfized as one per the murals Shadow himself was based on, assuming that theory is true

>aren't primarily difficult
No one says they are difficult. Just poorly designed

>poor control, glitches or anything of the sort. Yeah there's stuff worth improving and they're probably the most flawed part of the game, but there's not enough
Again you are just bullshitting. Yeah there is stuff wrong but errr, ignore it. No stuff like the radar nerf is a huge flaw, there is a reason the basic mod loader comes with that fix cause anyone with a brain can see how much it hurts a game.

>I can't relate at all to finding the Rouge turtle level (Dry Lagoon was it?) "too big and empty"
The turtle was an example of there not being anything interesting in the stages, no big set pieces.

>I found a legit huge level like Meteor Herd really fun
Okay. I found them unfun so, checkmate sonicists? You're really changing mind with that one.

You just said it isn't a big deal again and again. No running past a piece when the level sized has increased, many times having some gimmick you need to go hit each time, makes these levels more of a slog. Yes it does have an impact, I've played these stages with and without the mod and it is always quicker when you have it on.

>The entire point of the treasure stages are slower paced exploratory experiences.
In a game that ranks you for completing levels fast, discourages hint usages for a good rank and 99% of the time doesn't give you a good reward for exploring. Everyone wants these levels over fast cause they suck.

>The entire point of the treasure stages are slower paced exploratory experiences
And in most stages there is fuck all to find but rings. That isn't worth exploring them for, maybe if more stages had more equipment or some other collectable it would be fun. But instead you are walking around big empty levels with a broken radar. I don't believe anyone got SA2 some slow levels, you want a break there is the Chao garden.

Heres how it goes. SA2 done right (final rush, green forest, white jungle) is peak adventure gameplay. Unleashed done right (spagonia, shamar, adabat, holoska, chun nan) is peak boost gameplay. Both have a place to exist and both have been wronged by 06 and forces. 06 has a slower speed more like sa1 but even with that its still actually kind of fun. It shows that the core of adventure gameplay is FUN. It just needs to be made right and not glitchy

I found myself replaying Metal Harbor a lot because it's short. It's just a simple pick up and play level yet still has a high skill ceiling, hell I think the game benefits from having both long and brief levels.

>tldr
This is mostly stuff everyone guesses anyway, half your post is still assumptions. In isn't all that deep.

>some supplementary materials/the Sonic X anime
That isn't supplementary, that was another product that adapt some ideas while also doing its own thing.

>06 has a slower speed more like sa1
Wait, what? SA1 is the one where you can instantly boost forward super fast by tapping the spindash button.

On some levels you can do that but theres a lot of parts on linear narrow sections where you can fly off the edge. If youre playing at a regular pace then sa1 and 06 move about the same honestly. I got all the achievements in both of them twice so im fairly confident in what im saying

Nobody fucking asked you, dicklips.

I always assumed sonic has some sort of inborn connection to the emeralds, hence that Japanese man made vs nature trope. Shadow is an attempt by human beings to create the perfect life using the emeralds whereas sonic was just naturally born out of them

>bitch made faggot never went for A ranks doesn't even know

"but...game play itself...."

I guess its just public perception. Everyone gushing over how its the best sonic game made people hate it, and now that everyone thinks the game sucks people realize there are good parts to it

I don't personally think "big set pieces" are needed because the levels have, again,
>just enough platforming and varied level architecture to keep things interesting

I found Meteor Herd's platforming, climbing, gliding, generally navigating the level to be engaging, you didn't. We agree about the flawed radar, I just think it's not a game-breaking.

You shouldn't have to perfect a stage for it to have some challenge. That user isn't even right but you're being as stupid.

>having some gimmick you need to go hit each time

This is only the case on Aquatic mine and Security Hall, as I said.

>and it is always quicker when you have it on.

And I dispute the idea that slower = worse and faster = better inherently here.

>Everyone wants these levels over fast cause they suck.

I disagree, I have a lot of fun just roaming around them. I don't understand why people wouldn't when Knuckels and Rouge are way more responsive to control then,m say Mario in SM654 and people endlessly talk about how fun it is to just fuck around in stages in that game, plus knuckles/rouge can climb and glide and you do all of it to slick jazz/rap.

I think the issue is people go in with the EXPECTATION they are meant to rush through them and that sets themselves up to get frustrated.

>And in most stages there is fuck all to find but rings. That isn't worth exploring them for, maybe if more stages had more equipment or some other collectable it would be fun

I think extra collectables is a good idea, but I think just searching for the emerald shards itself is enough to make the stages fun

>half your post is still assumptions.

Most of it is outright confirmed in those materials or the dialog heavily hints at it, with people having sinced asked the writer on twitter and him confirming it was meant to be ambigiously hinted to (including the "Sonic is the real final shadow" thing)

>That isn't supplementary

Rouge's report in the japanese guide is absolutely supplamentary, and if you mean Sonic X itself, Sonic X used additional material for it's SA1/2 plotlines which got cut from the final game or never made it in. The two escape capsule thing is one such example, with it being in earlier versions of SA2's script.

Liam and Matt's playthrough on Flophouse was a total "oh man this game is actually incredible holy shit there's nothing to make fun of" full playthrough.

>You shouldn't have to perfect a stage for it to have some challenge.
Except you don't. You can fuck up and die, doing sort of well takes some skill, doing well takes skill, doing as well as takes tons of skill

Let me guess you also think NiGHTS is on rails and devoid of gameplay

Oh and also you can finish pretty much any port of an arcade shmup by simply credit and bomb-spamming. Bad design????

You didn't even read my full post where I said the other user was wrong before spazzing out. Your defence was just shit.

SA2 would probably be way more liked if the fans didn't jump to defend every inch of it

>thinking A rank means perfecting a stage

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I'm not sure what your point is honestly. My stance is that SA1's casual play is more fun but SA2's advanced play is more fun.

>I found Meteor Herd's platforming, climbing, gliding, generally navigating the level to be engaging
Okay, but you were arguing that they weren't poorly designed and when pushed fall back on well I liked it. That doesn't really give you much of a point. Kinda comes off as bitching out when you are pressed on something.

>I just think it's not a game-breaking.
Which again is not what anyone said. Just poorly designed, I can point to ways it effects the levels and why turning on the mod already makes for a way smoother experience. So I can say yeah there are poor decisions that make these levels less enjoyable. Not just a case of learn the layout.

>And I dispute the idea that slower = worse
And I pointed out the game itself doesn't agree with how it ranks you and giving you little extra content. There is no encouragement to take it slow, even with the radar nerf you are still meant to rush towards each piece individually. That is stretching content not slowing down how you go about it.

>but I think just searching for the emerald shards itself is enough
It isn't when you have such big levels but can only target one at a time. More stuff to do within a level would help that, it also actually make it so you would take those levels slower which is what you think is so good about them

>great story
Maybe if you're 10.

>diverse music
It’s a good soundtrack for sure but not exactly diverse, it’s 90% rock
>great story
For a sonic game and for its time I guess
>high skill ceiling
Yeah
>creative level design
Fuck no

It was what the franchise needed in 2010, and Colors and this new PR strategy really helped to bring back some goodwill and bring the franchise back into the limelight.
Even I remember thinking "man, this snarky sarcastic Sonic is so weird and refreshing to watch, definitely a far cry from the retardation of the 00s".
But it was 10 years ago. Now this definitely have gotten tired and it's time to bring back some earnestness.
Moreover, I feel like people in general are getting tired of this postmodern metahumor ironic valueless bullshit much more, cause it's been much more prominent in media since 2010 and Adventure Time etc. More people want to embrace New Sincerity or metamodernism so this constant self-depreciation in general has gotta go.

>I'm not sure what your point is honestly
The whole problems stems from you not reading 2 sentences before replying. Are you ESL?

Your defence against was well go for A ranks, my post was saying you were both being stupid. A game shouldn't only be challenging when you try to perfect it, and SA2 still has challenge before that anyway. You just leap to the first bullshit defence when it seems like someone might have insulted SA2. Maybe take a breath and read someone's post before flying off the handle.

>Which again is not what anyone said. Just poorly designed, I can point to ways it effects the levels and why turning on the mod already makes for a way smoother experience. So I can say yeah there are poor decisions that make these levels less enjoyable. Not just a case of learn the layout.
That's the thing; we're in agreement about the nerfed radar being a flaw, but we're not in agreement about it ruining the experience. This is why I think objectively deciding whether something is "good" or "bad" overall is impossible. There is such thing as objective flaws, and you did point one out, but whether it ruins the experience or not is something else and tends to be more subjective.

I also disagree with the ring collection being stupid and pointless and making the levels empty; collecting rings is simply another objective for another rank.

>And I pointed out the game itself doesn't agree with how it ranks you and giving you little extra content. There is no encouragement to take it slow, even with the radar nerf you are still meant to rush towards each piece individually. That is stretching content not slowing down how you go about it.
Memorization (the result of multiple slow playthroughs) is required to pull off a really good run. You take it slow a couple of times; then, as you learn the emerald locations and level layouts, it becomes easier to go fast and get a good score. You can say this is bad design but this has always been at Sonic's core from the Megadrive days. The games were designed with replayability and level memorization in mind. One of the devs (forgot who) said so; that a huge inspiration for Sonic was playing Mario levels over and over again and eventually being able to speed through them. That's why I don't think the treasure hunting levels go against the core of Sonic.

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I think it is also compounded in Mania showing forgotten fans can get what they want again. No one thought true Classic Sonic was coming bad, the lacking generations version was a god send at the time. So now everyone else is going where is my love? Worse when the movie has stirred the pot again and fans from all eras have popped up wondering why their Sonic isn't Sonic these days.

Problem is, not only can Sonic Team not deliver but that if they did it right they would likely take a whole new form. Sonic is always a product of its time.

Rock is one of the most diverse genres out there, but I partly agree with you in that I think the melodies and instrumentation aren't as varied as in SA1.

High skill ceiling and creative level design go hand in hand.

Yeah fuck it, you're right. Sorry.

Good bait, made me reply

The high skill ceiling is purely accidental. That’s not a knock on the game but the level design is really bland. Speed hallway-> maybe a side area or shortcut -> speed hallway with loop -> maybe a side area or shortcut -> set piece -> end

and restarting every stage multiple times until you get the hint you want because of the stupid radar system. Very fun indeed.

People are gonna hate me for this but I don't actually think Mania was needed. People have been making custom Sonic levels for eons and I don't think Mania being an "official fangame" really elevates it all that much beyond the production values for the visuals being higher.

It's like if Bethesda or whoever owns the Doom license right now made "Doom Mania" and the Doom fanbase had a collective orgasm. Who gives a shit? People have been making WADs for eons, why would a fangame being "officially" published be such a colossal event?

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>uhhh no it's ACCIDENTALLY good!
The game has a score system, I highly doubt it was accidental.

Once again look at these videos

There aren't many finished fangames or ROM hacks though, even the not-so-good hacks. I can probably name less than 10 and I've been keeping an eye on that stuff since like 2003.
And even if there were, the perception by the media and audience is what matters most, as it's the thing that drives sales and the course of the series. Yes, there may have been many good Sonic fan games (although there weren't), but 90% of people would have never heard about them, so Mania and the movie are what the franchise really needed right now. Fan content is what comes after you've made someone a fan or revitalized their interest, not the other way around.
That said, there is no guarantee Sonic Team are going to be able to properly utilize these new-found resources. (Going by their track record, they are gonna fail at that).

Just make the Sonic equivalent of Mario Maker and you're set.

>People have been making custom Sonic levels for eons
yeah and Mania was made by those people, the culmination and pinnacle of their work. Mania is easily better than any ROMhack that came before it.

>but we're not in agreement about it ruining the experience
This is what I mean when I say you switch from no they aren't poorly designed, to well I don't mind. That doesn't go against my point, you can like a poorly designed section. Someone could like 06 mach sections after memorising them, but would still be remiss in not admitting yeah these aren't well designed. It is just being honest with yourself. I know you do not mind it, that is a different question from is this well designed.

>I also disagree with the ring collection being stupid and pointless
The problem is they aren't enough of a reward, especially when I can attach to a wall and dig 10 times to get a bucket load. If a trip to the top of the stage is the same as walking left at the beginning you aren't really encouraging or rewarding exploration. Bigger/more unique rewards would make memorisation better as well, it would become more worthwhile to plan a path on the fly where you could grab them. Rather than an item which is already in abundance, you will have a surplus of rings no matter what.

>Memorization (the result of multiple slow playthroughs
The levels are large, but outside death chamber really aren't all that complex. One play through and I'd know the layout, that's why I brought up there aren't many big set pieces or the like. It just takes a while to get around and I don't feel rewarded for doing so. Plus this really doesn't support the other guys point well as it is based on you are always meant to go slow. Could also just fall back on the, you can memorise any stage. Memorisation alone doesn't make something good.

Considering Sonic's level design and my experience in ROM hacking, making such an editor would be a much taller order than making Mario Maker. Not only that, but creating proper Sonic levels also implies a much, much higher skill celling, so 98% of users are gonna create total bullshit and give up, much more than there's currently in MM. Not only that, but I feel there's less space to create and test out new ideas, as there isn't that much you can do with existing objects unlike Mario Maker. The originality in Sonic comes from each zone using its own assets and gimmicks, rather than testing clever ideas with existing elements like Mario. So unless you also create some kind of scripting language for it, it's gonna be much more dull AND much harder to make new shit in.
Overall, this doesn't sound like a very userfriendly experience.

Nah, I'm saying there are flawed elements but they aren't poorly designed overall because navigating the levels is fun enough to make up for the other issues.

I literally said "they're probably the most flawed part of the game" but I still enjoy them, I dunno what you want me to say

>I don't think Mania being an "official fangame" really elevates it
Well in practice you have pretty much been proven wrong. Many fan games exist but did they shape or change the conversation like Mania has? It is easy to forget that most normies don't get emulation, never mind fan games. Mania was a huge PR boost as an official product which is good means a whole lot more. Plus it caused other products in turn like the Mania shorts, and out of that we got TSR shorts and now 2 Christmas shorts. The knock on effect is quite clear.

I'd even say it is partly why there has been so much of a hubbub in the 3D community. A mix of why isn't our style getting the Mania treatment, everyone is wrong for only saying 2D is good and the like.

You're both 100% right and my post was fucking dumb

One of my favorite games as a kid and I can certainly still enjoy it, despite being more critical.

>skill celling
I meant skill floor, sorry.

>I dunno what you want me to say
I'm saying your flip flopping is tiring. You'll go from they're not actually unfair or poorly designed, to "they're probably the most flawed part of the game" but I still enjoy them. You bring up that they aren't poorly designed, but instead of defending why just throw in well I had fun climbing about. Switching from a statement on design, to a general opinion on the style of gameplay. It comes off as dodging the issue, you could make such a non defence for anything.

The segments were you have to follow a radar and deactivate shit on a timer are absolute bullshit.

>sa1
>sa2
>advance 1 2 3
>rush
good times

You're having trouble grasping that something can have a shitty mechanic but not be shitty overall.

See the scripted loop-de-loops, or everything being mapped to one button in the Sonic and Shadow stages. Those are poor design decisions, but I would not call the levels as a whole poorly designed.

Is this the game you're talking about?
store.steampowered.com/app/1079210/Spark_the_Electric_Jester_2/

The cutscenes look a little weird but the game itself looks great if you're an Adventure 1 or 2 fan.

Yep.

Also the OST is amazing.
youtube.com/watch?v=6uj6gGOKaaE
youtube.com/watch?v=B2OhWuilGTE

If you liked his stuff, check out his Sonic fan game tetralogy: Before the Sequel (2012 Edition) / Sonic Before the Sequel Aftermath / Sonic After the Sequel DX / Sonic Chrono Adventure.

Spark 2 is on my wishlist.
I played his old fangames. Surprisingly high quality too (although Chrono Adventure was a bit weird)

Actually I should come clean and explain why I'm flip-flopping: I'm actually not sure if tracking the emerald shards one by one is a bad mechanic or not. On one hand, it feels dumb because Knuckles could track them all in the first game - why not the second? On the other hand, things can make no sense if you bring a semblance of real-world logic into it, yet make perfect sense from a gameplay perspective. Why can't Lode Runner or the Bionic Commando dude jump? The SA2 levels are based around this mechanic and the hint system gives it a different adventurey and riddle-like feeling that's interesting in its own way. Figuring out that "dangerous liquid" means "artificial Chaos" is fun. When does an artificial limitation service the game, and when is it just stupid bullshit? I don't fucking know.

I think the problem here is that even without the nerfed radar you'd still hate the levels. You speciifcally said that you're using the mod to "get them out of the way quick, because they suck".

Actually I should come clean and explain why I'm flip-flopping: I'm actually not sure if tracking the emerald shards one by one is a bad mechanic or not. On one hand, it feels dumb because Knuckles could track them all in the first game - why not the second? On the other hand, things can make no sense if you bring a semblance of real-world logic into it, yet make perfect sense from a gameplay perspective. Why can't Lode Runner or the Bionic Commando dude jump? The SA2 levels are based around this mechanic and the hint system gives it a different adventurey and riddle-like feeling that's interesting in its own way. Figuring out that "dangerous liquid" means "artificial Chaos" is fun. When does an artificial limitation service the game, and when is it just stupid bullshit? I don't fucking know.

I think the problem here is that even without the nerfed radar you'd still hate the levels. You specifically said that you're using the mod to "get them out of the way quick, because they suck".

Actually I should come clean about why I'm flip-flopping: I'm actually not sure if tracking the emerald shards one by one is a bad mechanic or not. On one hand, it feels dumb because Knuckles could track them all in the first game - why not the second? On the other hand, things can make no sense if you bring a semblance of real-world logic into it, yet make perfect sense from a gameplay perspective. Why can't Lode Runner or the Bionic Commando dude jump? The SA2 levels are based around this mechanic and the hint system gives it a different adventurey and riddle-like feeling that's interesting in its own way. Figuring out that "dangerous liquid" means "artificial Chaos" is fun. When does an artificial limitation service the game, and when is it just stupid bullshit? I don't fucking know.

I think the problem here is that even without the nerfed radar you'd still hate the levels. You specifically said that you're using the mod to "get them out of the way quick, because they suck".

I was loving Spark 1 but the framerate problems that aren't game-breaking for normal people make the last handful of levels unplayable on my dying yuropoor computer

These games got too much hate, they're overall pretty based, albeit kind of clunky at times

It's the game problem, not your specs problem. Seems to be some kinda weird bug, it quite annoyed me too.