What am I in for ?

I always wonder if there is a way to kill nobody

A more slow paced version of Bioshock

soma is not a walking simulator

This one has enemies wandering around and puzzles to solve. It has lots of wandering, but it's not exactly Dear Esther.

a long ass boring walk with a retard MC who has the plot explained to him no less than 4 times but acts surprised every single time

What do you mean? There is. You just don't kill anybody. It's that simple.

in every soma thread, there is this autistic idiot

As opposed to the retarded people who played the game and still don't get that there was no coin toss.

I love this game and still laughed irl at this comment. P accurate.

You won the cointoss of being born.

Not meant to be

I, JOSEPH A ANDERSON, AM NOT SCARED OF ANY HORROR GAMES, THEREFORE THEY ALL FAIL AS HORROR GAMES.

This

headaches from extreme amounts of chromatic abberation
seriously though, whenever I lost health I pressed Alt+F4 and loaded the game back up again cause I didn't see the option to turn it off in the settings

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This. It’s not horror (and it’s only ambiguously meant to be), but it’s still a very good game and you will enjoy it.

I actually recommend putting it on easy mode though, the monsters don’t really add much to the game experience except tedium and annoyance.

Identity is perception. There is no “self” rattling around in your brain, it is an artifice sewn together from your experiences (and more importantly, your memory of them).

When your consciousness is duplicated, it is not some lesser, alternative thing which is not you. It is you. The original copy is also you. Both of them are you. So, from “your” perspective, there is a 50/50 chance that one of two outcomes occurs.

i.e. coin toss.

It is definitely horror. It just doesn't rely on spooky things to go boo out of a dark corner with an axe, so this breaks the burger's wittle brain on the definition of the word/ genre.

>simonfags

eh. I’d say “thriller”. Horror means scary: SOMA is sometimes tense, and sometimes depressing, but it’s very rarely scary.

A walking sim is Dear Esther, Gone Home, or Firewatch
This at least has fail states

Pretty interesting idea but I saw a lot of missed opportunities to tie it into the gameplay. Story is decent. Theta is genuinely the scariest part of the game for me as well as abyss

youtu.be/igKn7Qbz38g

I never got this meme, the horror comes from the plot/setting and the themes it presents, not so much the gameplay.

You have to kill/destroy at least some”thing” at one point to progress; it isn’t a human, but you only meet one living, functional human in the game anyway.

All of the other acts of destruction are optional.

Or you could acknowledge that you're a copy and continue on as is.

a walking sim with a mob of shillers behind

I think a lot of people feel this way, and so your perspective on the game comes down to whether you actually find its themes scary. Which they aren’t.

best (story) game evaaaar!

You are a copy, it’s just irrelevant to the fact that you’re still you.

It’s like if you copy a document on your desktop; it’s a copy, that is factual, but it’s indistinct from the source document. It isn’t suddenly “not the REAL document” by virtue of having been produced by duplication.

There is a coin toss. A cheater coin with two identical sides.

MY NAME IS NOT JOSEPH IAN ANDERSON!

I'm not going to get into this again because you coin toss faggots have no basic comprehension skills.
The copy is not you, you do not continue on. Your copy does, there is no chance of it being any other way. You are always destined to be left behind while the copy continues on. From "your" perspective you are still in a chair.

The story is so overrated and nonsensical, felt completely pointless.

>t. Simon

It's a pretty good game OP. The only downside is the protagonist is a bit of a retard.

No it's legitimately terrible. They plug you into the machine and the game cuts to 100 years later as a completely different person but doesn't tell you. For what purpose? It left no impact on me.

They tell you as the story progresses. It's part of the mystery the main character has to solve. It's no different form a movie or tv show that some character has amnesia.

>as a completely different person

nigger you what

And from “your” perspective, you are also continuing on.

It’s exactly like the Multi World Interpretation of quantum mechanics. At a point of divergence (a wavefunction collapse) both outcomes simultaneously occur, and the timeline diverges to produce two realities, one where each outcome happened. You, as an observer, inhabit both of these realities, but at the point of divergence, “your” consciousness is only on one path. The other reality also contains you, you are in it, and in that reality, you perceive the other outcome, but in either case, “you” only perceive one outcome, despite “you” also perceiving the other.

Because of this, you can assign a statistical likelihood to the outcome occurring, but it’s really just a statistical likelihood of “you” winding up in one reality over the other. Which, again, you wind up in all of them, but the “you” that “you” identify as can only be in one at a time, even though the other “you”s feel the same way.

SOMA’s premise is that, but with parallel bodies instead of parallel universes.

Makes sense I suppose, I know horror is subjective

The game’s point is to challenge the idea of “different person” when there’s a continuity of consciousness.

>consciousness is quantum mechanics

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>call X dumb
>doesn't actually understand it

dumb brainlet

It kind of is if you’re talking about many-worlds, since in many-worlds the wavefunction never collapses, it’s just the forked duplication of the observer’s consciousness into two parallel realities which together form the complete wavefunction.

Of course if you’re more of a god-playing-dice sort of guy, then many worlds is not something you believe to be true, but as a thought exercise about what it would mean for consciousness to be duplicated it works the same way.

>And from “your” perspective, you are also continuing on.
No I'm not. My copy would be able to grasp it and would not identify as me; it would identify as a clone of me, just like I would've identified as a clone of an earlier version of me if that was also the case. None of us would labour under the delusion that we are the other, at least unless we were literally deluded into thinking that. But if you have to misrepresent reality to make someone reach the conclusion about it that you want them to then you're demonstrating that you're wrong, not that you're right.

So many words to explain something so wrong.

this one gets it.

Fuck off with your hypothetical whatif bullshit. We're talking about reality only as we can undeniably confirm that it exists.

protect her smile

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Ludo. Probably one of the best stories in vidya. That ending is legitimately haunting.

The coin toss argument is made because, for all intents and purposes, there is absolutely no reason for you to have swapped perspective to Simon 3 from Simon 2 aside from the narrative making it happen. The only time the perspective doesn't IMMEDIATELY change to the newest Simon copy when it's made is when you fire the Space Gun.

Obviously the coin-tossers are completely wrong, but imo the ending would have been better if it continued with the trend and swapped you over to Simon 4 in the ARK, THEN showed you what happened to Simon 3 down below.

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Your copy would not "be able to grasp it", but he would view it the same way you do, because of course he is you, so he would have the same misguided belief about the situation, but that doesn't prove much. If you believe in God, your copy will also believe in God, but that doesn't assign a truth value to it, it just means that you continue believing the same wrong bullshit after being copied as before, which actually reinforces the idea that your continuity of consciousness is crucial to your identity.

It's a horror. Whether or not you(or Joseph Anderson) found it scary doesn't change it's genre.

Absolute autist who condemned herself and an innocent moron to horrible undeaths because she couldn't explain the concept of cloning to him.

Boring.

Dumb AI, obvious twist, and just dull in general even if you play at night in the dark with headphones.

>there is absolutely no reason for you to have swapped perspective to Simon 3 from Simon 2 aside from the narrative making it happen
Why? You experience the game as that consciousness. It obviously exists, as a consciousness. You say "swapped perspective" like the game was told from a third person omniscient perspective, changing characters between chapters.

It isn't. What you, the player, remember happening 8 minutes before the switch is the same as your character remembers. Your chain of observations and associated memories is the exact same as the one that the character you are controlling remembers and is experiencing. You play as one character throughout the game.

That's not at all what the many worlds theory is about. Stop spewing pseudo intellectual bullshit like you're Bioshock Infinite.

All that happens ins information transfer between two different data storage, which will be always copying.

user if you were to copy your consciousness, you wouldn't have a 50/50 chance to transfer to the new body and your old body being inhabited by another "you". The game makes it abundantly clear that a copy isn't a transfer and that Catherine is lying to you about the 50/50 chance.
The reason why the game makes it seem like there is a coin toss is because you're playing as the third Simon and all events before changing to the second body are only your memories. Why wouldn't you still be the original Simon, or the second Simon that was left behind? It's just because you remember the things up to the scan happening to you before being placed in the new body

>That's not at all what the many worlds theory is about
Then explain Many Worlds Interpretation, because Wiki says thusly:

>In this interpretation, every event is a branch point; [Schrodinger's] cat is both alive and dead, even before the box is opened, but the "alive" and "dead" cats are in different branches of the universe, both of which are equally real, but which do not interact with each other.[1]

In other words, until the moment of "collapse", a single historical thread (or consciousness) exists for the observer of the quantum event; once the wavefunction collapses, reality diverges, creating two parallel observers, one of whom sees the event play out one way (alive) and the other of whom sees the event play out the other way (dead).

If that's wrong, you've got to explain to me how, because that's how I've always seen it explained. ultimately my point is not about MWI though, I don't believe in it, I'm just using it as an example case to help brainlets get their minds around the idea of divergent copies of a single consciousness

>If that's wrong, you've got to explain to me how

Copying a consciousness (at least in-game) is not tied to an event described as a wave-function, you mouthbreather. There's nothing to collapse because after the copy both consciousness exists and is present.

To be this retarded.

Let me run a sequence of events through to you.
>Meatman Simon 1 gets his brain scanned
PERSPECTIVE SHIFT
>WAU-made Simon 2 gets created
>Simon 2 wanders around until he builds a new body
PERSPECTIVE SHIFT
>Simon 3 gets to Pathos-II and fires the Space Gun
>a digital copy of himself is made
NO PERSPECTIVE SHIFT (until later, for some reason)

Why no perspective shift, aside from narrative fiat? By the rules set by the story, your perspective shifts to the latest Simon.

If the rules worked for the player by the same "copying is not a transfer" rules that everyone else abides by, the whole game would be Simon getting his brain scanned uneventfully and then dying.

Instead, the game sets a weird precedent where the narrative makes you swap perspectives every time a copy is made, except arbitrarily NOT the last copy (except for the stinger).

ctrl c not ctrl x

the individual that you play as up until that point is not the individual you play as afterwards. he gets left behind, or mercy killed if you so choose.

If you copy a piece of paper, do you have 50/50 chance that the original and the duplicate switched places while you were copying?

like said, the perspective changes only happen is because you play as Simon 3 from the very beginning, and the transfers being his memories being cut off before being copied to the new bodies

>you wouldn't have a 50/50 chance to transfer to the new body and your old body being inhabited by another "you"
Yes you fucking would, you absolute dunce.

Both "you"s would exist. That is a fact. 100%. Both of them would experience the event. Both of them, up until the point of divergence, would have had exactly identical conscious experiences. When one man steps into the duplication machine, and presses the lever, two things are guaranteed to happen:

1) a person with his conscious mind steps out of the machine he stepped into
2) a person with his conscious mind steps out of the machine next to the one he stepped into.

From the perspective of person 2, he got into a machine, hit a button, and stepped out of the neighboring machine. That is his chain of consciousness, that is his uninterrupted stream of memory-forming perceptions, that is his identity, that is HIM.

Because there are two outcomes, and both are guaranteed (i.e. equally likely), it is fair to say that there is a 50/50 chance of your "experience" being one or the other. Granted, the other experience also occurs, and you also have it, but which "you" is "you" is, essentially, random. If you were to conduct a sequence of duplications, first copying one man, then copying each of his copies, etc., in succession, and at the end result you asked all of them to report and record which machines they stepped out of, you'd see that there was a probability approaching 50% of stepping out of the left machine or the right one upon flipping the switch.

That's because from the perspective of the "new" Simons, there IS a perspective shift. Doesn't mean that the old one experiences it. You merely play as the third Simon - his memories are the same as the first up until the brain scan and the second's up until the copy.

For the fourth Simon, there is another perspective shift, but the third is shit out of luck.

Why is it the people who least understand this game feel the need to write out an entire fucking essay about it?

You are wrong in the first sentence.

This type of comment is why I assume everyone who hates the "coin toss" is a fucking retard. I'm not arguing that the consciousness duplication is a literal quantum wavefunction collapse you blind-eyed smooth-brained drool-gargling fuckwit. I'm using what is called an "analogy" to provide an "example" to maybe help dipshits like you to imagine OTHER circumstances where a single conscious mind is "duplicated", so that the way those circumstances are interpreted can be applied to the novel ones presented by SOMA, thus hopefully bridging the obviously Grand-Canyon-sized gap in your fucking understanding of what it means to duplicate something.

This "oh you're just replaying the memories of the third guy" stuff is pure speculation. Where in the game is this shown?

Except YOU, the person who walks into the machine will ALWAYS walk out of the same machine stepped into. Creating a new, identical consciousness will not change your perspective.

When you fire the cannon. Catherine literally says there is no coin toss. Did you also miss the subplot about people trying to kill themselves at the moment of the copying to try to "transfer" into the ARK?

Catherine fucking herself said that it's ctrl c, not ctrl x. Use some fucking common sense man, why would your fucking CONSCIOUSNESS travel OUT of your current body into the new one? Convenience?

In order for an analogy to work, it has to make sense though you dickjuggler. There is literally nothing to collapse in this scenario. You make a second consciousness that has the same memories as you up until the point of the copy. What the fuck is there to collapse, dickweed?

Just because you don't find it scary doesn't mean it's not horror. If it's not horror, what is it then? And lemme tell you it does have at least one scary moment (besides existential horror). The part where you have to fix that elevator while the blind monster dude is roaming around. Fucker feels like he's right there you when you finally get it working

Install patch that removes the monsters. They are pointless and not scary at all. SOMA is a walking sim, not a horror game.

Digital copies are not the same as transcriptions, so let's do it this way.

In webm related, is the "original" document gone? What would it even mean for that to be true? What remains is identical to what started. The duplicate is not in any way unique. What makes it distinct from the "true" document? It's a fact that it was copied; that fact is why deleting the original doesn't change anything.

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I really dislike the gameplay itself but the story of the game wouldn't work if it wasn't a game and the player wasn't directly controlling Simon. The fact that you (the player) are Simon allows you to actually value him like a person. It's essentially a black mirror episode if it actually was good

Reminder that the WAU did nothing wrong and if you shut it down you're a monster.

This is true, but the perspective of the person who steps out of the machine is just as valid. And from his perspective, he stepped into the machine on the left, and stepped out on the right.

That "string" of consciousness is exactly as valid as the "string" of the guy who stayed on the left.

Bad example. Have it copied from one drive to another and it's closer to what happens in the game.

Sure the second document is identical, but deleting the first one leaves the first drive without that document.

Exactly. But the person who walks in will always stay the person who walks out, even though in the perspective of the second guy he walked in a different door.

This will never change. There is no coin toss.

He has a memory of stepping into the machine on the left*
Doesn't mean it actually happened.

What if "you" were the copy from the start simply reliving all "your" memories up until then?

Nothing has to "collapse", obviously, you ponce. The point of the Many Worlds Interpretation example is not the wavefunction collapse itself, the wavefunction collapse is the event that TRIGGERS the duplication of reality. The wavefunction collapse is the act of pushing the switch on the duplication machine; it doesn't matter for the purposes of our discussion. You might as well argue about how many volts a machine like that requires. It is the thing which triggers the duplication of the observer's conscious mind into two separate but EQUALLY FUCKING VALID paths.

Saying that the analogy is bad because there's no wavefunction collapse is like saying the analogy is bad because quantum mechanical interactions don't take place in post-apocalyptic ocean research stations.

That's exactly what happens in the game

It did plenty wrong, but it was clearly learning and getting better. It might have saved humanity on the long run.

Exactly. At the point of copying your conciseness you simply don't know whether you're a copy or not. Ergo there is a coin toss.

To the consciousness being duplicated, it's impossible to know which version they will be. To the subject, it IS a coin toss. You brainlets are incapable of looking at it from this point of view.

That's true, but by that logic, you can't say that any of your memories actually happened. Your conscious mind is nothing but a bunch of chemically-mediated electrical impulses rattling around a wrinkly piece of meat; you can't be SURE anything has happened. The validity of your observations derives entirely from the (necessary) assumption that they are; your identity is your identity entirely because you say so.

Consider: every cell of the body you have now was not around 15 years ago, but "you" were. You probably even have memories of that time. They are a part of your "identity". But none of the actual, physical things that constitute "you" existed at that point in time, at least not really (arguably all of the matter existed SOMEWHERE in reality, but it wasn't in any form that you would describe as "you").

The only thing that defines your identity, then, is your memories of experiencing events. Outside of the chronological sequence of memories, you are essentially just a complicated bag of chemicals. What you call "you" is based entirely on memory; you can't invalidate an identity by saying it "only has MEMORIES of events", that's true of every identity.

>Saying that the analogy is bad because there's no wavefunction collapse

No, the analogy is bad because it has nothing to do with the premise.

Again: I copy a file from my harddrive to an USB stick. Both files are identical. Is my computer going to collapse when I look at one of the files? Is the original file on my HDD suddenly starts thinking it's on my USB drive for some weird fucking reason?

This whole discussion is retarded and the fact that you still cling to this dumb MWI analogy is sad.

For you (the player), there is. For Simon that gets copied, there is not.

Except a digital copy is placed into a distinct physical place. There is absolutely no reason to think that the copy proces arbitrarily decides to copy the info in the same physical place and then transfer it instead of just writing down the copy in the physical holder.

I thought that the story's concept was so straightforward that the fact that it needed to be explained 3 or 4 times to the MC, yet he STILL didn't get it was aggravating beyond belief. I couldn't accept the possibility that someone so philosophically dense could exist, let alone seek out a game like SOMA.

Then I found these threads.

If you recognize this is true then you also recognize that there is no coin toss. The clones perspective is not the perspective of the person who was cloned. It doesn't make it any less valid by any means, but it does mean that it's not a 50/50 chance that you will continue on to the ark. It's a 100% chance that you will not, and your clone will.

The only reason the clone would not realize that is because the person being cloned is a fucking goober.

The WAU just wasn't up to the task, but it could have created a new and stronger version of life. So, it probably was better to let it live.
Unless you think really long term and realize every AI is a massive autist and will enevitably consume the entire universe if left alone for long enough.

Shit ruled. I need a VR version.

Nah they are.

>Yea Forums says it's not a walking sim
>buy it
>play 2 hours
>it's a fucking walking sim

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To the people who believe in the coin toss, does this mean after the copy has happened that you would kill yourselves, like the big brained scientists in the lab? After all, there is an identical of themselves in the simulation so they will live on, right?

Okay, is this supposed to be give me an existential crisis or something? Everything is material, big deal.

That wasn't the point of the discussion.

Well, it's one of the better walking sims.

>it's been almost four years (4 year anniversary TOMORROW even)
>people are still arguing about the coin toss

I'm torn between being glad that SOMA still enjoys discussion on Yea Forums and being mad that people are still debating over something the game explains to you multiple times

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It's not supposed to give you an existential crisis, but for some reason a lot of people seem to have a hard time processing that reality when it comes to SOMA.

But until the moment of cloning, the copy's consciousness is YOURS. That's the part you're getting stuck on. An entity which springs instantaneously into being with all of your memories and conscious thoughts at that instant IS YOU. It has to be you, because those things are all that define "you", not the material objects which host those experiences and thought patterns.

A different way of addressing it: suppose it wasn't a copy. Suppose the machine really digitally "transferred" your consciousness from one body to another, as Simon assumes through most of the game. In that situation, is the copy "you"? Or are you "dead" and it's just a copy that carries on?

It has win/loss conditions that aren't just """alternate endings""" and puzzle elements. What's your definition of a walking sim?

because Frictional is unironically the best indie studio of all time

>all these anti cointoss labcoat-jerkoffs

The soul, and the spirit, the metaphysical you is the connecting thread of any being. Its the groundwork of all that is material. A copy of you is the extraction of your soul into two parts. One new soul is born while the host remains. Your perspective in hindseight is the 50 50 cointoss, as your essence is drained into a new body without an actual physical extraction. You are both sucked into a new body, wether it be a piece of inert circutry or an actual mechancial body, and remain. The soul is a bottomless well in its purest form its splitting is that of infinity. The soul is still split, and whatever side of it you think you are on, you are on both sides.

Cointoss

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Why would I kill myself? I don't want to die. The fact that there is another "me" out there doesn't make me any less desirous of being alive.

>But until the moment of cloning, the copy's consciousness is YOURS

Until the moment of cloning, the copy's consciousness doesn't exist.

A dumb canuck doesn't understand philosophy and basic logic.

>does this mean after the copy has happened that you would kill yourselves
For me, no. Though I suppose one could say that if he chose to kill his other self, it was the right decision since they have the same personality/experiences up until that point, so the one that is asleep would agree with the decision to die. And if I choose not to kill him, that means Simon in the chair wouldn't want to die either. Though of course, if you factor in the additional experience the latest Simon copy has, it might simply be a crapshoot.

> After all, there is an identical of themselves in the simulation so they will live on, right?
They're still separate beings.

Ah, no, incorrect. I see now why you're stuck on this. You've got an issue with the literal identity of it.

When a road forks, which road is the "true road" and which one is the "side street" that only just started existing? Is it even fair to make that distinction? Why is the copy's consciousness not the same as the source consciousness? It's a copy, after all. It didn't spring into being from nothing, it is a continuation of an earlier consciousness; it's just a forked continuation.

Why did the big brained scientists kill themselves then? Were they retarded or theologians?

>every cell of the body you have now was not around 15 years ago
Most of my neurons, perhaps the most important kind of cell for the subject at hand, were indeed with me for most of my life and will keep that way until I blow my brains out.

And of course since I'm a 14yo japanese schoolgirl I also have a bunch of eggs in my ovaries that will follow me for most of my life

They're retarded.

It exists from the copy's point of view.

Do you think twins are the same person?

They were the sort of idiots ITT who think the coin toss doesn't exist, the same sort of idiots that Simon was. They think that copying is fundamentally distinct from transferring.

But because they're big-brained scientist types, they understand that transferring is indistinguishable from copy-and-delete-source operations, so they chose to copy their minds and then delete the source, thus creating (effectively) a transfer.

It's retarded, but hey.

You're mixing up cosciousness with memory.

Actually, the idea that your brain cells are static throughout your entire adult life is no longer highly regarded in the scientific community. You do grow new brain cells, even into old age, and your old ones do die.

It may not be strictly true that ALL of your neurons now are replacements, but certainly more than zero of them are. At least parts of your brain have been Ship-Of-Theseus'd.

No, but only because they diverge before their consciousness actually exists.

Finally someone who gets it.
The copy who is made would have the full belief that they had experienced a full life, even though they had just come into existence.
For example, there's no way to prove that right now your consciousness is merely the memories of a version of you (a copy) that will be created in the future.

>They were the sort of idiots ITT who think the coin toss doesn't exist, the same sort of idiots that Simon was.
Simon DID think that the coin toss exists.

>They think that copying is fundamentally distinct from transferring.
Because it is?

Yes, that's why I said most of my neurons.

>game explicitely tells you otherwise
>>this person gets it!

Simon?

I'll just ask this question again, and see what you think:

Suppose the machine really digitally "transferred" your consciousness from one body to another, as Simon assumes through most of the game. In that situation, is the copy "you"? Or are you "dead" and it's just a copy that carries on?

How can I act out a memory?

How many neurons does it take to stop being the same brain? We're getting into Fallacy of the Heap territory here. Is your rationale that the, say, 60% of the neurons remaining are enough to contain the entirety of "you"? What were the other 40% doing?

I remember when soma threads were completely dominated by anti coin toss fags shouting down anyone who dared disagree with them.

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which means Yea Forums has objectively gotten stupider since

You're constantly acting out memories right now.
The only way for a memory to feel real is if you feel like you lived it in real time.

Or that sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LALALALALA will only block out the truth for so long.

This. There is a very clear distinction between actually performing the tasks you did instead of just remembering doing them. The newly created consciousness clearly couldn't know which is which, but the simon that DOES sit inside the machine can. So it's not a coin toss from the old simons perspective, but it seems like one from the new simons perspective

You cannot digitally transfer between two different data storages. It will always be a copy and delete.

Nope. None of that. Just stupider.

Is it really that hard concept to grasp?

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Imagine if they made the coin toss into an actual mechanic. Considering it isn't already determined which Simon's stream of memory you're playing through, every time a copy is made, the continuation would be RNG based. It would make the game tedious but it would worth it, just to spite the anti coin toss fags.

bUt WHaT dEtErmInEs WhICh mE EnTeRS tHe VR????!?!?!?!!?!?!?!

Here's the thing that I get stuck on.
In the "transfer" what is really happening is the original is being destroyed as the duplicate is made. There is no issue of continuity for the clone but that does not make the clone the same as the original. You as the one being copied are destroyed in the process.
If you leave the original where it is, and the copy is teleported to the ark, there is no chance of the original being transported there. The reason the clone in that situation doesn't feel that's the case is because the person who is being cloned doesn't understand what is happening.
You are being duplicated, but you are not being transported. There is no cointoss.

There is actually no coin toss from the player's perspective, but there is one from both the original and copied Simon's perspectives. At the exact moment the copy takes place they both have the experience of having made a copy. Neither of them knows (yet) whether they are the original or the copy, and because of that lack of information you can consider it statistically. There are two equally possible options, that you are the original, or a copy with the same memories as the original. While the copy will always be the copy and the original will always be the original, there is a period of uncertainty of which one you are.

After that initial moment it quickly becomes apparent who is original and who is copy, but during that one moment you can describe the situation as a coin toss in a subjective sense.

/thread.

After reading your posts I'm inclined to agree with you.

Along with the Coin Toss analogies other people have said, there's this one I've heard before:

There are two rooms: the starting room and the destination room. They both look absolutely identical to each other. Once the copy sequence is done, neither person can know for sure whether or not they're still the initial subject or the clone, since everything is still exactly the same and both people remember entering the same room looks-wise. They'd only know the truth once they exit that room into whatever lies beyond.

So from the subjects' perspective, there's a coin toss going on regarding what is beyond the room they are currently in.

>there's a copy of myself that's living a blissful live with my waifu in a mountain cottage while I'm stuck here

Looking at it from a certain perspective I guess you could say things worked out for -me-

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simulated suffering for no purpose
they're just going to suffer for few thousand years in simulated state

Amnesia but genuinely sad.

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The VR-you is basically another person whom you have nothing to do with.

The loser-you is the you you're stuck with.

He could have had a robo waifu to do sex simulations with but instead he decided to sperg out and fuck it up.

Wow user, no need for personal attacks here.

you can never enter vr
NEVER EVER find happyness in vr
you are 100% guranteed to die virgin according to chart

Sick burn bruh, but you're still the one suffering from dunning-kruger effect.

You can't prove that the consciousness you have now isn't just the memories of the VR version of you that will exist.

>Coin toss.

People seem to forget that Simon 2.0 and 3.0 were 100 year old legacy scans of a man with brain damage.

Catherine never corrected him because she needed him in good spirits to do the legwork.

Good game though, a personal favorite of mine.

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>In the "transfer" what is really happening is the original is being destroyed as the duplicate is made. There is no issue of continuity for the clone but that does not make the clone the same as the original
I don't want to fuck you up, but that's you. That's your body.

Right now, as you type, cells in your fingers are dying, and your body is producing identical cells to fill in the gap. It's not helpful or useful to think about it in those terms, but in a year, you will have a brand new hand. You don't think of it that way, of course; your hand is your hand. If I cut it off, it won't grow back, so you only get the one (on each arm). You either have it or you don't.

But the stuff it's made of is constantly being replaced. The same is (largely) true of the stuff in your brain, and really almost all of the stuff in your body. You are a river; it's not the SAME water in a given spot, it's just a name we give for whatever water happens to occupy that space.

So, if the clone "isn't you", then you yourself "aren't you". You haven't been for years. Just as we end the game with "Simon 4", you're on "user 27" or whatever. Your whole body has been replaced multiple times over. That isn't at all how you experience it, and it's not useful to think of it in those terms, but it's factually what happens.

Why make a distinction when it comes to digital copies versus cellular copies?

frictionalgames.blogspot.com/2018/10/hiring-project-based-3d-artist.html
>Frictional was allegedly nearing the finish line on one of their new games in october last year
>fast forward 11 months
>still nothing

Where's my fucking horrorkino Frictional

The future conscience isn't created now so it can't possibly live out my current memories. If you bite your finger right now, it's gonna hurt, right? You will feel the real sensation of it. but try remembering it a few seconds after doing it. Can you recreate the pain from memories that you definitely just felt?

Do we even know anything about their new game?

>You can't prove that the consciousness you have now isn't just the memories of the VR version of you that will exist.

I'm discussing soma on Yea Forums right now, which only happens after the split. The VR guy has no way to possible know or have memories of that, and wouldn't even care about it in the fist place since he's probably too busy fucking his hot catgirl wife right now

>Can you recreate the pain from memories that you definitely just felt?
It's not just the memories of the pain, it's the memories of having experienced it.

I may not be able to recall the sensation of pain, but I can recall that the pain event occurred. But that memory is just a memory too, and it could just as easily be false.

Nope

And that's the best part, thematically speaking there's a world of difference between the themes and tone of Penumbra, Amnesia and SOMA (maybe less so between the former two) so it's anyone's guess what Frictional are gonna do next

How so? If you can refute the coin toss do it already.

>Consciousness right now is memory of the future

I don't know what the fuck are you smoking but hit me up senpai

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fuck off Simon

Yes but the question is which consciousness will actually transfer over. If you can create any sensation in THIS current moment, before it becomes a memory, you clearly know that you're the original, ergo you will not be crossing over

Are you really pulling a Theseus?

So the coin toss already happened and you lost. RIP

Yes, that's trivial, so what?

Please stop, you're stressing me out.

Not at all true, because the consciousness is 100% duplicated at the instant of scan (for our purposes. I guess there's probably some really interesting questions that could be asked about how events are processed when they occur mid-scan and different parts of the brain are active while others aren't, but it's never really addressed)

If I bite my finger and feel pain, and then a minute later I bite my finger and feel pain, there's no way for me to prove that in the intervening 60 seconds my consciousness was not duplicated, the original destroyed, and the duplicate inserted back into my brain.

>and wouldn't even care about it in the fist place since he's probably too busy fucking his hot catgirl wife right now
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

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Such a lame plot twist. It's interesting to talk about outside the game but not interesting at all in the game.

All of fucking SOMA pulled a fucking Theseus, genius. It's what the entire game is about. It's about the mind as a Ship of Theseus.

But if you had hurt yourself yesterday you'd still have felt the real sensation of it.
However, in this scenario you cannot prove that it was really you that hurt yourself.
Instead imagine that you only came into existence 5 minutes ago and were given the memories of hurting yourself. The only way for you to have these memories feel real is if you felt that you had truly lived them.
So although future conscience isn't created in the present your present conscience could in fact be the memories of a future you.

Did you fall for it, Yea Forums?

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Has there been any hint of their next game?

Still hoping for an update.

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Yep.

It's funny because the friend I was playing it with was halfway through the sentence "Hey what if it's an angler-Oh."

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That is true but you're making a huge assumption that you just randomly get your consciousness switched out for a new one. The original question was based on whether or not you know who transfers after a scan. So before a scan, if you bite your finger, and the sensation of pain occurs, that is your definitive proof that you will not be "transferred". Obviously the copied consciousness will have no idea because It only has the memory of experiencing said sensation, so it can't possibly know whether it did occur or not.

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Not true. The INSTANT after you bite your finger, you have pain... and if you are copied then, the copy also has pain. It doesn’t just “get your memories”, it gets a literal 1:1 image of your brain, including all the still-firing neural signals.

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Yeah. It got me good. But luckily I was fast enough on the draw for it not to hurt me.

The pain you feel in your finger is actually perceived in the brain. That pain would be transferred and the copy would feel it too. Now as for the wound itself that would be explained in the same way a robot body would "feel" like a human body.

Whether those memories are real or not are only coming into question by the newly created consciousness. But you yourself know that recreating the memories will never yield the same sensation as actually experiencing it NOW does. Since true sensations of the current moment will never be the same as the memory of it, you know the difference, but the created consciousness can not, hence why it can't differentiate between them. So if you DO feel pain before being copied, you know for a fact that you're the original, hence you will not get to live out a millennia with your catgirl waifu

how would the copy feel it if it wasn't even created yet

Not quite. The ship of theseus is replaced bit by bit, incrementally.

True, but it's not that part of the Ship of Theseus question it deals with.

It's the part that goes "okay, suppose the ship of Theseus is cut in half, and each of the original halves has its missing half restored with new parts. Which one is the 'real' ship of Theseus?"

Soma: Simon 3's revenge

I apologize, I stated that poorly. The actual second half of the Ship of Theseus question is "what if all of the discarded parts that were replaced with new parts are kept in a warehouse, and then one day reassembled into a full ship: is THAT the Ship of Theseus?"

Same idea but the original question does articulate it differently.

And that's an interesting question, but has nothing to do with what happens in the game.

It's more of a "If somebody made an 1:1 perfect replica of the ship of theseus, which one of the ships would the original crew be on after the new ship is built?"

In summary
youtube.com/watch?v=pVB_DI4ajKA

The new one I reckon

It's a pity that I couldn't participate in previous SOMA threads, but this one is giving me a headache

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>anti-coin fag enters vr transfer machine
>anti-coin fag closes eye and press button
>anti-coin fag knows its bullshit and will be stuck in rl 100%.
>opens his eye, and yup he's in rl in fleshy form
>at the same time, anti-coin fag in vr also believes that he is stuck in rl
>but opens his eyes and he's got metal arms

Existential dread

>It's more of a "If somebody made an 1:1 perfect replica of the ship of theseus, which one of the ships would the original crew be on after the new ship is built?"

The actual question goes "if the ship of Theseus has all of its parts replaced over time, and then the original parts are all reconstructed into a ship, is the new ship the ship of Theseus, or the old ship"?

Your analogy breaks down because in the SOMA example, the ship that is reconstructed also includes a complete reconstruction of the crew, who themselves have also been discarded and replaced piece by piece. It's the entire thing, ship and crew and all, that is duplicated, not just a part of the whole.

>"If somebody made an 1:1 perfect replica of the ship of theseus, which one of the ships would the original crew be on after the new ship is built?"
I think you mean "if someone made a 1:1 perfect replica of theseus and his crew, and put them on a new ship, would that ship then become the ship of theseus"?

That's what happens in the game.

because the brain's perception of a pain event is copied over, just like everything else.

Succinctly put.

I don't remember it lol. You just leave behind your body like you have countless times before right? And there's nothing after the escape if I remember, just ends.

>Your analogy breaks down because in the SOMA example, the ship that is reconstructed also includes a complete reconstruction of the crew, who themselves have also been discarded and replaced piece by piece. It's the entire thing, ship and crew and all, that is duplicated, not just a part of the whole.
No, the analogy breaks down in SOMA because you've actually built a completely new ship right next to the other one without touching the first one at all, you fucking retard.

technically that's true, technically it's more like
the crew are what is duplicated, and it's just a brand new ship.

But the point of the ship of theseus is not about the literal distinction between vessel and crew, it's about what identity means, and when (or if) a duplicate ceases to be its source.

The coin toss is not about identitiy though. Both/all Simons are valid Simons. That does not mean that there is some sort of a weird shared consciousness between them that can just jump around - it looks like in the game like that is because of narrative reasons. In order to have the memory of the previous Simons by the time you get to the third is to play through all the previous ones until a copy happens, because that's literally how he remembers it happening - but that does not mean that any future copy is up for chance.

what did you do Yea Forums?

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This is why we will never have matter duplicators - you faggots are fucking retarded

I'm the kind of a coward who in the chair would plead to keep living but on the outside would pull the plug, so you can guess.

A retarded protagonist, but the game acknowledges it

>Both/all Simons are valid Simons.

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I decided that if I was still in 2.0's perspective I wouldn't have wanted 3.0 to come along and think he had the right to kill me. So I decided to leave him be. Let him find his own path. Maybe awkwardly reunite with 3.0 later and travel the ruins of the world together. Two Simons and that sad screaming lady against the world.

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it's really funny how nu/v/ has has no fucking idea what "walking sim" means.
hint: It doesn't mean "game I don't like" or "bad game".

>he fell for the 1:1 copy ruse
lmaoing at you .99999 soullets

A good game

That's the point of the game. If you wanted to save a spark of humanity's thought from the apocalypse and the subsequent extinction of life it doesn't matter, but from the point of view of the individual it matters. Hence the tension and the madness that brings the situation.

>go to the bathroom
>look at the mirror
>my reflection appears
>OH NO NOW I DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE IS THE REAL ME
that's you, that's how retarded you dumbasses sound

Both eh

Well, the ship is just a mental construct. A representation of reality of low enough resolution that a brain far to limited to completely grasp reality can usefully interact with it. Whether it's completely original or completely rebuilt matters less than if people can agree what they're talking about when they talk about the ship in question. For the perfect replica anyway, obviously you'd care a lot more if the two ships were noticeably different.

For a ship anyway.

But for conscious entities, it matters a lot more, since - among other things - they have opinions too. My clone of me would care a lot that you thought about it as a clone of me rather than confusing the two of us for each other. So that's one big reason right there for why me and my identical clone are not the same person, even if we were completely identical in every possible way. Or 'originally' completely identical, anyway. Obviously, as soon as the clone was created, it'd no longer be identical; experiencing new experiences that are distinct from mine, etc.

Much in the same way that every new copy of Simon is a Copy Of Simon, not Simon Prime.

I guess if Simon Clone 1 and Simon Clone 2 both thought they were the same person it'd be an interesting problem, but I'd argue that in that case they're actually just both kinda stupid and confused and have conflated themselves as Simon Clones with Simon Prime because they can't distinguish between the different ideas, like... like someone who can't tell the difference between burgundy and maroon. I mean, I can't.

It’s good, the “puzzles” are tedious and stupid though

no, you see, there is a 50/50 chance that when you look at the mirror, you will switch places and be the one in the mirror
man am i smart

He stuck there forever without that key, so I mercy killed him

>there are still people who didn't get the concept of cloning
Dense motherfuckers

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The dude didnt want to believe it user he was in denial

He could have befriended crab hands I reckon. Could have had a long distance relationship through the door.

Would you have wanted to be mercykilled? I'd rather wander the depths until I died through some stupid mistake of my own. Even if I wanna die, only I get to choose when I die for my own good. People have all sorts of ideas about what life is or isn't worth living, I don't want them making decisions for me, even if they are identical to me in every conceivable way.

I would rather die, imagine waking up realizing that your other self wandered off with Kate and will complete your plan while you just sitting there, it's like that Simon who launched the Ark and asking himself why is he still there

Why do you keep repeating this retarded phrase? Are you retarded like the hero? Hurr, consciousness transition, durr.

people are genuinely retarded nowadays.
it's why most recent media has stuck to simple concepts.

The fact that he's locked in one room seals the deal for me.

>I don't want them making decisions for me, even if they are identical to me in every conceivable way

I saw that quite differently; I'd say that the new me would be entirely within their right to decide if I'd want to live or not, considering that they'd reach the exact same conclusion that I would in the exact same way, as they are functionally identical (and there hasn't been enough time for the minds to diverge due to differing experiences.

I'd rather die then be trapped, alone, at the bottom of the sea, and the new me would recognize that I'd rather die because HE would rather die.

>obvious twist
What was the twist in the game? Everything was pretty clearly laid out for you. Even what happens at the very end is pretty understandable as you go, I just felt more pity than anything for the main character.

I decided with a coin toss

Boring, awful story

>Would you have wanted to be mercykilled?
>I don't want them making decisions for me
Well, but do assume that I'd rather be mercykilled, then isn't it fair to assume that I'd want to be mercykilled in that situation and proceed to mercykill myself because it's not someone else choosing to kill myself but me instead?