Why are jrpgs so conservative?

I'm not gonna lie, Heroes of Might and Magic games might just be the ugliest games ever created. How the fuck did that come out in 2002?

>Persona 3 and 4 are some of the best examples of the genre

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>find wrpg vs jrpg copypasta
>find autistic wrpg vs jrpg cherry-picked pic
>post thread
>get free (You)s
Genius

>>find autistic wrpg vs jrpg cherry-picked pic
Cherrypicking of what, exactly? BG2 and FF9 are both story-driven party-basd fantasy RPGs that came out in the same year (2000), and were both the best-selling franchises in their respective subgenres. It's the perfect comparison.

If anything, the comparison is unfair to wrpgs, since Square had well over a decade of experience making RPGs and access to 100+ million dollars budgets, while Bioware had never made an RPG before prior to Baldur's Gate and was working with a fraction of the budget Square had.

i'm right tho

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shut up

You should show the gameplay to Baldur's Gate 2 versus FF9's gameplay.

xenoblade 2 has a ton of unique stuff.

>xenoblade 2 has a ton of unique stuff.

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>You should show the gameplay to Baldur's Gate 2 versus FF9's gameplay.
Wait, are you seriously implying FF9 has better gameplay than Baldur's Gate 2?

Baldur's Gate 2 gameplay isn't necessarily all that good, mind you, it's just that FF9's brain-dead tedious excuse of a combat system, where it literally takes 30+ seconds to even get into combat due to slow loading screen transitions and obnoxious camera pans, is one of the worst combat systems ever created.

Why not show the actual gameplay in action? It's better for getting a point across than a wall of text.

> with western RPGs, the sky is the limit, and there's no restriction to what kind of game mechanics they can implement
So long as those mechanics amount to "press the correct button when you're in the correct range".
WRPG Thief:
> Can pickpocket NPCs (that they're right next to, via a single button and not some sort of additional gameplay element)
> Can steal from stores (same mechanism)
> Can pick locks (MIGHT be its own mechanic)
> Can detect and disarm trap (a literal roll of the dice on both counts, not interactive)
> Can set traps of their own (literally just acts as a standard attack of some kind)
> Can see through illusions (a passive, only affects gameplay by removing the need for any counterplay to illusions)
> Can move silently and hide in the shadows (stay x tiles from the enemy, where x is determined by how stupid they are)
> Can backstab unaware enemies (takes 20 turns to set up, only useful for cheesing enemies above your level)

JRPG combat is at least honest with itself about what it's doing, and earns some of the developers' actual focus for its trouble.
WRPG combat is filled with an endless deluge of "stuff" that just serves to turn any semblance of interesting combat into MORE FUCKING MENUS and MORE FUCKING DICE ROLLS.

>Why not show the actual gameplay in action? It's better for getting a point across than a wall of text.
If you insist.

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>Wait, are you seriously implying FF9 has better gameplay than Baldur's Gate 2?
Why else would you avoid actually showing gameplay and just resort to walls of text?

JRPGs use the barebones D&D stats stuff just to give a sense of progression throughout the game. Little mechanics like Zidane's steal are just meant to be interesting little gimmicks the player can use to get small benefits. JRPGs set out to tell a story with a cast of characters, whereas western RPGs usually set out to tell a story with a dynamic-feeling game world.

Western developers in general seem to be fond of emergent gameplay, the Japs seem to be afraid of it.

Ok that's one half and not presented without memes, off to a good start.

>elegant point & click interface
lmao stopped reading there

I feel like JRPGs try to tell a story while WRPGs are more sandbox oriented in general.

When the gameplay is centered around "you make the story" you need to give the player enough options for them to make it how they like.
When the gameplay is centered around an established story, you only need to give players the option to progress the story.

>lmao stopped reading there
Ah yes, because wrpgs could never hope to match the amazing interface design of jrpgs.

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>Years later you're still posting it.
Because morons like you keep responding to this literal reddit bait spammed every single day instead of reporting, hiding and ignoring.

why are you posting some tldr shit about baldurs gate vs xenoblade instead of explaining why xenoblade 2 isn't unique? your image doesn't argue that point, it's just saying "baldurs gate had different but superior mechanics"

DIdn't read the text, but both games in that image have unbelievably terrible interfaces. Old shitty games have old shitty interfaces, big surprise. Baldur's Gate is trash for boomers.

>more images without even screenshots because you know that game is ugly as sin
Lmao.

fuck off

RPG is a just label games use to excuse shitty gameplay. That goes for both J and W.

How do modern WRPGs fare against modern JRPGs? Best and worst of each.

no it refers to more complex progression systems with some degree of choice, usually involves numbers going up, story focus, stuff like that. sry i know you're being flippant but on the off chance you're just retarded i figured i'd explain

>>Can pickpocket NPCs (that they're right next to, via a single button and not some sort of additional gameplay element)
False. First of all, you need to invest skill points to raise your pickpocketing skill before you can do it. Secondly, you have to avoid detection. Depending on the game, this means you might have to sneak up on the character from behind. In some games you can create a distraction. Etc.

>a literal roll of the dice on both counts, not interactive)
You do realize EVERYTHING you do in those turn-based jrpgs you are jerking off is also a roll of the dice, you retard? Again, you need to invest in trap detection and disarming skills before you can do it.

>Can set traps of their own (literally just acts as a standard attack of some kind)
How does this act as a standard attack? It's not an attack, it's something that alters the battlefield. Do you even understand the concept of a trap?

> Can see through illusions (a passive, only affects gameplay
Yes, it affects gameplay. How is that a bad thing? Are you genuinely retarded? What are you even saying here? Again, this is something you need to invest in.

>stay x tiles from the enemy, where x is determined by how stupid they are)
Jagged Alliance 2 is a turn-based wrpg from the 90's where sound plays an integral role, everything you do produces noise. There are four different movement modes (running, walking, crouching, or going prone) that asks you to make a trade-off between how much sound you make, how fast you move and how much stamina and action points Besides line of sight and sound, stealth also takes into account the level of illumination. nighttime makes it harder for the enemy to see you, but also makes it harder for you to see them, but enemies will also adjust their tactics and AI behaviour, such as throwing out flares during the night to light up the surroundings.

>takes 20 turns to set up, only useful for cheesing enemies above your level
Oh, so you're just retarded.

>almost every ability simply deals damage
t. never learned how to use chain attacks

Xenoblade 2 has:
> A real-time combat system where your party can TECHNICALLY carry you without assistance, but will inevitably fail without any input from you
> A unique approach to equipment and weaponry where combat abilities are divided between weapons (with individualized, growable skill trees, almost akin to fully fledged characters) and the characters proper
> Separate growths and abilities for each character, weapon type, and specific weapon add up to major emergent complexity in any given playthrough, with some reliable general strategies
> Stat growth is not randomized or player-assigned, it is concrete and supplemented by player-directed skill growth

Demon's Souls was the only jRPG made by people who get it.

The main purpose of chain attacks is to boost damage

>honestly debating the graphics of 20 year old role playing games

This is the gameplay WRPG-kun considers good.

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JRPGs have attractive female characters
WRPGs have a bunch of ugly niggers
JRPGs win

jrpgs are shit.

This is why Undertale is the pinnacle of RPGs.
>b-b-but
Nope. Cope.

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We all know Heroes 4 was bad. Why dont you play Heroes 3?
Plus this game is not WRPG retard, its a strategy game.

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woah nice framerate

>Plus this game is not WRPG retard, its a strategy game.
It's a strategy RPG, and it has significantly more RPG elemenets than something like Fire Emblem, which is regarded as an RPG.

this looks fine. way more fun than something like fire emblem.

Impressive backpedaling. So I guess you aren't going to post anymore then?

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never played Fire Emblem, dont know what it is.

>he thinks that's a wall of text
I'm beginning to understand why you prefer JRPGs.

nobody calls fire emblem an rpg

Undertale isn't even an rpg. It's a linear adventure game with bullet-dodge elements.

Lol op is quite pethetic. Wonder what games he play now because now western games are all SJW trash and wrpgs don't even come out.

Are theese wrpgs vs jrpgs threads full of people that like both but they slightly prefer one over the other and just post bait images get (yous) and games recommendations or is it my imagination?

>let me post these few seconds of random gameplay as if it somehow can accurately convey how combat works in these games
Dark Sun came out in the early 90's, and is lightyears ahead of what jrpgs were doing at that time, or even modern jrpgs for that matters. Stuff like being able to alter the environment (e.g. fire burning web, or a wall of fog that blocks line of sight) is genuinely cool.

>Gameplay is just another wall of text
OH NO NO NO NO

Because as long as people still like them there's no point rocking the boat. Changing things too much just means you piss off your existing fans with no guarantee that you'll get new fans. If you want something different, other games exist for that.

I think some of the wrpgfags might be serious

if you want to play RPG game play
Morrowind
Neverwinter Nights 2
Baldurs Gate
Torment

jrpg are cliche shit where the only diffrence are heroes and big evil guy

magical crystals
big war
super magical doomsday weapon
muh firends, muh love

>let me post these few seconds of random gameplay as if it somehow can accurately convey how combat works in these games
You have presented no evidence to counteract it, which tells me that it's perfectly accurate since you would if you could.

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>JRPG weebs mad
>WRPG nerds mad
Good thread, OP. Looks like another win for FPS Chads.

These threads are made by a serial redditor shitposter and a few people who emulate him for easy (You)s.
All those WRPGs VS JRPGs shitposting image macros are from reddit.

Baldur's Gate is overrated shit. Only notable for being a good kleptomania/serial killer sim which modern RPGs do better

>that crusader kings II pop up

fuck off jap fag, this board if nothing more than another anime fags breading ground.

> First of all, you need to invest skill points to raise your pickpocketing skill before you can do it.
Oh, I'm sorry, in order to pickpocket enemies you don't just have to press one button. You need to have pressed the "learn to pickpocket" button when you leveled up, first. Of course. How could I be so stupid.
> Secondly, you have to avoid detection.
I don't award points for every other """mechanic""" a general detection system plays into, only for the detection system itself. And not many, given how piss easy it is to make one once you have other bare basics down.
> EVERYTHING you do in those turn-based jrpgs you are jerking off is also a roll of the dice
Except that pretty much every well-designed JRPG, even the barest-bones shit like Persona 5, will give you enough options that you'll only be relying on random chance for a win in exceptionally rare circumstances.
> Do you even understand the concept of a trap?
Something a character places on the battlefield (magic or mundane) that will later activate when certain circumstances are met, VIRTUALLY ALWAYS causing damage or opening the target up to taking damage.
If you call that "altering the battlefield" then an attack with a long-lasting hitbox is also "altering the battlefield". Having a character GUARD is "altering the battlefield". Retard.
> Yes, it... is... genuinely retarded?
Glad we see eye to eye.
No, retard. Investing in a passive that no-sells a portion of combat eliminates the need to counterplay. If it's required to progress, that's bullshit, and if it's not, that's removing gameplay.
> Noise is a variable that goes up more for different types of movement
> Enemies all have a certain "noise threshold" and "sight threshold"
> Environmental conditions change their "noise threshold" and "sight threshold", and occasionally unlock certain tactics
Doesn't sound very deep, despite your best efforts.
> Oh, so you're just retarded.
Nice try, but no.

For both genres why are RPGs by and large so married to numbers, yes it originates with stuff like D&D but if RolePlay is supposedly the main draw while JRPGs have it wrong thrusting a role on you why is it that battle systems must keep to turn based potentially moving on a grid and numbers, and even when action elements are added numbers are still a staple?

BS is still better than all jrpgs shit made for bodypillow lovers.

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>party members will permanently die at -10 hp
why do retards insist this is like d&d again?

Greedfall came out a few days ago

What the fuck do you WANT your RPG to use, if not numbers?
Do you want enemies to just die after a certain number of hits like fucking Mario?
Do you want to just watch an unquantified health bar go down slowly?
Do you just not want any frame of reference for how good or bad a piece of equipment is?

You will never be welcome here, reddit.

sorry, but all anime fags go into the oven.

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WHY ARGUE WHICH GENRE IS BETTER WHEN YOU CAN SPEND THAT TIME COOMING. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HERE IT COMES. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

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You're all replying to the retarded faggot who goes by the username Beepzorz.
Google the username and a lot about this autist will become clear.

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Saying "menu based or action" is a really misleading statement considering the sheer number of completely different action systems. And even turn based.

Like, Persona 2 and Dragon Quest don't resemble each other at all. Star Ocean and Xenoblade are both action based but the similarities end there.

It's basically like saying "all shooters are either first person or third person and are the same aside from that" when so many of them play completely differently. Like, that's the entire purpose of having a genre to describe a general style.

Anyway comparing western RPGs with Japanese is totally fucking retarded since the genres split over 40 years ago and went in completely different directions, comparing them is like comparing Ultima Underworld with Doom.

Holy shit, the absolute state of WRPGfags.

No wonder this site is shit when all the batshit crazy people hated literally everywhere else congregate here to fling shit at each other.

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nice try jrpgs fag

It's an arpg like souls series. Not a wrpg

No need to be so defensive fucko, your leddit comments and the fact you're using the same image macros is there for everyone to see.

Jesus Christ, that explains a lot.

They will fall after a certain amount of hits anyway, that is completely determined on numbers that are randomized for no other reason than emulating dice roles, every other genre pretty much just deals with arbitrary number of hits or the same thing with a life bar. It's pretty much the same thing except RPGs have stat progression which while it can add to the role playing element with equipment, spells etc some of this numerical shit can only really justify having a large amount of different equipment, everything else is just bigger numbers showing up on screen and killing health sponges quicker. At this point all the numbers do outside perpetuating tradition is add a complexity that isn't necessary outside of random elements that are quantifiable by the random numbers reflecting the dice roll/multipliers etc.

I can get it for pencil and paper and for experimentation on older RPGs, but at this point especially with nebulous shit like action RPGs I honestly don't know why it's here.

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Japanese developers have always been focused on console releases, and basically a few types of gameplay mechanics have become calcified into console development because "That's just how you do them"
Western developers were more experimental as they used to be making PC games and kept throwing all sorts of ideas at the wall to see what stuck, which led to big successes but also yuge fails.
Of course the instant they decide to be console-first, PC-secondary that experimentalism goes right out the window and you do what is proven to be profitable; just look at how Cyberpunk 2077 has gone from a roleplaying game to an action-adventure story.

>Where is the Japanese equivalent of something like Heroes of Might and Magic, which fuses RPG-style character progression and adventure with 4x-style strategic sensibilities?
Nights in the Nightmare fuses standard SRPG tropes with a time based mixture of puzzle game for win conditions and bullet hell as the bulk of all action. It's also dripping with dark atmosphere and incentives replay for a number of reasons, including extra storylines and strategy opportunities.
Growlanser 1 is an Infinity Engine RPG that marries west with east, taking player choice to an extreme degree while also allowing it's gameplay to build off tropes from both west and east, yet ultimately due to the size of maps and variety of objectives it ends up playing more like a real time strategy game with a pause tactical menu. Growlanser IV just goes full RTS, except every character is a Warcraft 3 hero you build further with progress that never resets despite completing maps. Actually, they're far more complex considering all the innate skills, classes, and gear values you can strategize with in that game.
Phantom Brave takes the gridless strategy game to an extreme, and it's sequel, Phantom Kingdom, builds on it. Both promote heavy lateral thinking to achieve win conditions, grow characters into absurdity, practically ask you to break the game by design and yet they abide to simple but hard to master rules of resource management and map awareness.
What about the Atelier games, at least the old ones, which are what basically CDPR should've referenced when they tried to make a Witcher game in the first place?
Variety is there, you dumb fucking idiot. Your ignorance is your only problem regarding the genre. And these are just a few, actually translated games- there's a whole lot of even more autistically complex, oddball games that you haven't even heard of in the first place stuck in their country of origin.
Now, can you stop pretending to be retarded?

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Is Growlanser 1 really that different from 2/3?

Imagine thinking this is good. I fucking hate real time with pause so much.

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I dont see the issue

>WRPGfag is also a Redditfag
Well that explains a lot.

>Now, can you stop pretending to be retarded?
Can you? Your post is completely filled with false facts.

Growlanser games for example do not play anything like RTS games or Infinity Engine games. There is no free exploration in these games, you are always in combat mode. They are turn-based games. You can't move your units at all times like you can in an RTS.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but you somehow got EVERY fact wrong.
Enemies will not, in fact, "fall after a certain amount of hits anyway". A good fight in an RPG relies on your ability to judge how close an enemy is to falling so you can judge whether to pull back, judge how fast you're killing it, and etcetera. No type of RPG has significant randomization in its damage numbers, and what randomization does exist in a competent RPG isn't "just to emulate dice rolls", it's there to create the necessity for having contingency plans and using safer options if you NEED to win. In a game with no risk, just essentially doing math until someone dies, you could extrapolate the result of a fight from the first turn. There needs to be SOMETHING engaging.
Stat progression, equipment progression, and equipment progression is vital to the gamefeel, and numbers are part of it. The numbers don't "perpetuate tradition" and the complexity they add is good, not bad.

Fuck off.

Op are you retarded? Deus Ex is made by Square Enix a Japanese company, it’s literally a jrpg

It has no flow at all, it's constantly stopping the actual gameplay to issue commands. Fallout 1 and 2's system is leagues better.

>playing EE content
>casting Miscast Magic ever
>not using quick keys
>taking Yoshimo
Plenty of issues with that webm.

>Imagine thinking this is good. I fucking hate real time with pause so much.
Baldur's Gate 1/2 with Sword Coast Strategems has more tactical combat than any jrpg ever made.

You may not like rtwp, but the sheer amount of tactical options dwarves any fantasy RPG. I specifically say fantasy RPG because military RPGs like Jaggd Alliance 2 and Silent Storm scratch a very specific itch.

Yes.
Growlanser 1 DOES have free exploration, you fucking idiot
You can also move your units whenever you please in IV
Speaking of RTS, shall we talk about GrimGrimoire, one of the most unique games in the genre?

All Yea Forums does is argue about games they don't like and never play games they claim to like

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No, it's made by Ion Storm from Texas.

Because dying at -10hp is ripped straight from the players handbook.

That's only true for WRPGfags. That's why they never ever post gameplay of their games.

permanently is the keyword. these niggas don't have True Res/reincarnation?

This isn't even Yea Forums, it's a bunch of angry redditors raiding the place since years.

>Speaking of RTS, shall we talk about GrimGrimoire, one of the most unique games in the genre?
If by unique you mean one of the shallowest RTS games ever made, then sure. It's the very definition of style over substance.

Did you even play past the midgame? Or are you one of those retards that thinks shit like CoH is shallow?

>shallowest RTS
That's redundant

its not like anyone ever posts gameplay of JRPGs either

Probably spends more of his time making his autistic bait images than actually playing video games. In other words: a quintessential Yea Forumsrgin.

>No type of RPG has significant randomization in its damage numbers,
I...
Is this the bizzaro Yea Forums thread?

Name a competent RPG where randomized damage numbers actually matter in how fast you kill something beyond 1/2 turns in a 40+ turn fight.

Fire Emblem isn't an RPG

Kotor has some pretty significant RNG on its damage

Do ARPGs count?

>Did you even play past the midgame? Or are you one of those retards that thinks shit like CoH is shallow?
So what great depth is there in GrimGrimoire compared to other RTS? For starters, turning the environment in a flat 2-d side-scrollr hugely dumbs down map design and tactical play. The fact that it's designe around a controller means the game simply can't craft any real micromanagement challenges for the playr.

It's certainly a cool-looking and stylish game, but in terms of gameplay, it's compleetely braindead.

wRPGs are awful, taking aspects from DnD is a terrible choice for video games. Japan got the message, it took the west a long ass time to do so

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>Baldur's Gate 1/2 with Sword Coast Strategems has more tactical combat than any jrpg ever made
And I'm sure theres a mario world romhack thats scarier than any horror game ever made, too.

Yes but do JRPGfags sperg out about WRPGs to the same extent? Not even close. I remember a decade ago the JRPG vs WRPG meme images would typically joke about how fucking autistic WRPGfags are about muh superiority and yet they never present any actual evidence.

Is it accessable in the setting that the QM created? Just because dragon magazine issue 70 says you can have a harpy ranger wield a gun doesnt mean that the setting has guns or harpies in it.

People are just as likely to post webms of Witcher or Dark Messiah as Tales of or Dark Souls

>One thing that has always puzzled me about jrpgs is how conservative they are when it comes to game mechanics.

yeah they should make their games inferior table top experiences instead

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>wRPGs are awful, taking aspects from DnD is a terrible choice for video games.

>With the sole exceptions of CHAOS, WarMECH, and the CARIBE (piranha), every single monster race comes from an AD&D monster manual published between 1977 and 1983. In a number of cases, FF1 includes most (or all) subtypes of a monster without adding any that weren't in AD&D. For example, SCUM, MUCK, OOZE, and SLIME are very clearly read, in Japanese, as Green Slime, Gray Ooze, Ochre Jelly, and Black Pudding... exactly the names of the only four gloopy monsters in the 1977 AD&D Monster Manual. Not a coincidence.

>Wikipedia, for some reason, has scans of Monster Manual illustrations for almost all of the monsters. And almost all of them look a lot like their FF1 counterparts... in some cases, the resemblance is uncanny. KARY, aka Marilith, looks exactly like the AD&D Marilith. And Mind Flayer and Piscodemon, meet your twins, Mind Flayer and Piscodemon! It goes on.

>Most of the FF1 monsters came from the 1977 manual. I didn't look as closely, but I definitely recognized some names in the later manuals from subsequent FF games. Espers, too! The 1983 book has Carbuncle with a ruby, and Phoenix, and Phantom... and Mist Dragon. And that Mist Dragon looks just like the one in FF4, and is a non-evil dragon that can turn to mist at will. And it's one page away from a Shadow Dragon that looks not unlike Golbez's and has disabling magic.

>Re spells: the CURE spells are pretty similar to AD&D, especially with CUR4 being the full heal, but they moved levels around for those: they were 1, 4, 5, 6 in AD&D, not 1, 3, 5, 7

>But geez, look at all these direct analogues, at exactly the right level, or adjusted by one to squeeze 9 spell levels into 8... spells I would never have suspected, but that do line up perfectly. RUSE was Sanctuary! FADE/HOLY, meet Holy Word! EXIT was Word of Recall, and here are HOLD, CONF, BANE, BRAK, RUB in succession, not to mention STUN, BLND, KILL, and beyond

I've heard people say good things about morrowind.

>some early FF games versus an entire subgenre
you really showed me

>And I'm sure theres a mario world romhack thats scarier than any horror game ever made, too.
How does that analogy make sense? Sword Coast Strategems is mostly an A.I. mod. That's all that's needed, because Baldur's Gate 2 already has more variety in spells and abilities and tactical options than basically every jrpg eever made.

>you really showed me

Pretty much every thing people associate with traditional jrpgs like FF, DQ and SMT was copied from western rpgs: the turn-based party-based combat system right down to specific spells and classes/jobs, the overworld, even the tradition of getting an airship, heck, even specific game concepts like alignment and demon negotiation in SMT, or the distinction between white/black/red mages in Final Fantasy.

You can even see this particularly clear in the Final Fantasy series: while the first FF borrowed heavily from western rpgs (to the point of basically copying the magic system, class design as well as all of its spells and enemies from D&D), FF2 switched to a system where your stats and skills improved as you used them, in direct response to Dungeon Master, a western rpg that came out the year before and popularized that system.

wRPGs can only fit in settings that are already popular, they have no creativity outside of existing content.

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>Earthbound as fictional real-world when it it has prominent sci-fi/fantasy elements
>Saga Frontier as cyberpunk...lolwut? It's your typical science fantasy setting
>Arc the lad as urban fantasy (wtf?)
>Valkyria Chronicles as alternate history when it takes place in a separate fantasy world.
>having to invent fake genres like toon fantasy and celestial fantasy

You don't have a clue what these genre classifications mean, do you?

except these series were smart enough to ditch trash DnD gameplay mechanics early on. Fast foward to 2002 and games like morrowind still used shitty dice roll D20 garbage

The very first tab in the readme for SCS explains that it adds in the spell list from icewind dale.

You don't like wrpgs

>Star Ocean or System Shock
>Space Opera

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>It's a beepzorz thread
And you people still respond to him after all this time

sorry, is this not a sci-fi/fantasy element? I don't remember you having a problem calling jagged alliance 2 fictional real world with shit like this in it

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Why don't WRPGs have Dancers, but have Bards?

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This description for FF15 sounds like it could be written for, more-or-less, most JRPGs ever created, so I find it funny that we're using this as an example for a "disappointment" and "one of the worst in its series", as if it's done something truly blasphemous compared to other Final Fantasy games. It's appeal to authority, but the authority (FF fans) does not care about gameplay. What if I changed the picture of FF15 to, say, FF6, and replaced the text line about the game being "disappointing", to how it's amazing? What would really change about the gameplay description? I genuinely don't understand what JRPG fans consider to be a "good" game, since they so rarely give off any clear signals.

Let me quote this exert to demonstrate the REAL main difference between jrpg and wrpg fans

>The only kind of evolution JRPGs have undergone is of a cosmetic nature: Final Fantasy was no Ultima, and its endless sequels had to be justifed in some way -- and so they were. CG or anime-style cutscenes and countless hours' worth of voice-acting and orchestral soundtracks were the justification, piled up, stacked and shoved inside cartridges, CD-ROMs, GD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs, and soon enough Blu-ray discs and who knows what else.

>And the results of this unchecked and wholly misdirected "evolution"? They can be clearly seen today simply by contrasting the kinds of questions asked by fans of Western and Japanese CRPGs on the launch of a new title. While the former are eager to know about the character creation process, non-linearity, multiple endings, and whether they can be evil, the latter seem to care little about anything besides the names of "character" designers and music composers. Market economies being what they are, everyone ends up getting what they asked for.

If this text is too long for you to bother reading, let me simplify it for you: Jrpg fans care sweet fuck all about gameplay. All they care about is clothing.

>optional sci-fi mode (put in as a joke)
You're really so pathetic that you have to resort to this level of dishonesty? This is likee saying Call of Duty is a fantasy game beecause it has a zombie mode.

>This description for FF15 sounds like it could be written for, more-or-less, most JRPGs ever created
how? for one, items tend to be limited in jRPGs or they have a cooldown if not. Meanwhile wRPGs are riffled with this trash in RTwP

>While the former are eager to know about the character creation process, non-linearity, multiple endings, and whether they can be evil
None of which are gameplay because they already know it's gonna be shit.

>it doesn't count! No my infograph!

Most of the things on the jrpg side don't even match those genres.

Like, do you even understand the basic concept behind alternate history? 'Alternate history' has as premise that our history happened. Then at some point, things diverged, that's where the 'alternate' comes in. Example:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionheart:_Legacy_of_the_Crusader
>Lionheart's historical chronology puts forth that Richard the Lionheart's massacre of 3000 prisoners at the Siege of Acre, during the Third Crusade, was used by a villainous character as fuel for a ritual which tore the fabric of reality. This resulted in magic invading the game's world from other dimensions. The game itself takes place during the 16th century, which, due to the alternate reality setting, has been ravaged by uncontrolled magic and demonic creatures.

Another way to do alternate history is as follows:, things were always different, but the world at large is not aware of this, and history occured as we know it (except for secret happenings that we are unaware of). Example:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darklands_(video_game)
>The setting for Darklands is medieval Europe as the inhabitants thought the world was at the time. All the cities that one's party may visit in the game are real places that existed in the Holy Roman Empire of the 15th century. Most are in modern-day Germany, but some are within the modern borders of other countries including Denmark, Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, Switzerland, Austria, the Czech Republic and Poland. The city names given in the game are old German names of the cities, some of which are now exonyms; the new local names are given in parentheses.

Notice the difference? Races, locations, historical events, etc. in these games are the same as in our world.
VC does not have this premise at all. It never references something like WW1. It's its own fantasy world, no different from something like LoTR, with its own made up races like Darcsens and Valkyrur.

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>meticulously detailing a basic attack as if to suggest it takes actual time and effort
>comparing an SRPG where moving units to enemy units to attack is a basic logical staple of the subgenre to attacking in a Western CRPG
I think you're actually autistic WRPG-kun, the problem with your shitty comparisons is that they're intentionally low effort since you get things wrong and try to paint the otherside as bad as possible.
If you actually ever want to convince anyone that your shitty opinion has actual merit, try being objective, acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of both sides.

have a less retarded version of this image for future use

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>how? for one, items tend to be limited in jRPGs or they have a cooldown if not. Meanwhile wRPGs are riffled with this trash in RTwP
Items tend to be far more limited and more costly in wrpgs, whether RTwp or turn-based. You also have weight limits preventing you from stockpiling billions of potions like you can in jrpgs.

Furthermore, in rtwp games like Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, every item a charactr uses an iteem, thy have to go through a lengthy animation, preveenting you from spamming items. Meanwhile, in FFXV you can spam an endless amount of items.

Dance is only a small portion of the skill portfolio which a proper troubador should possess: a wide memorization of the poetic epics, of singing, of dancing, of sleight-of-hand and other entertainments to appeal to both the high and low-brow crowds a bard may find themselves amusing to earn their coin.
D&D being D&D of course skimped out on implementing any actual bardic shit in favor of giving them shitty subpar assortment of magical spells instead because D&D can not stop sucking wizard cock and making wizards more overpowered than everything else in existence.

Leveling is the single most cancerous aspect of CRPGs, JRPGs, ARPGs, SRPGs, TRPGs, and all the rest. Realtimefags are correct on this element and I've never seen WRPG-kun ever defend this flaw. Leveling is an obvious way for anyone to optimize the fun out of their game and yet it's defended in RPGs and is even infecting realtime games more and more.

Other than NUMBER GO BIG ME LIKE, name one benefit to a leveling system over an unlock system for your abilities/buffs based on score/collecting/story progress. Metroidvania style finding a health upgrade, or beating a boss to get a new ability/weapon is both more sensible and more engaging than "yeah, you're experienced enough now from killing x slimes/orcs in the overworld". iirc both sides sometimes have "spellbooks" to read and learn a new skill, but honestly stuff like the Hero of DQ11 just having a EUREKA moment and knowing Zing at lvl 28 for no reason sucks, or the hero in Gothic 2 to gain bigger stats also is arbitrary.

Either side, please defend the existence of leveling in RPGs at all, because from where I stand it is just lazy design.

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>>meticulously detailing a basic attack as if to suggest it takes actual time and effort
It does with the shitty interface in FFT. I didn't even mention the obnoxious camera pans that occur every time you move a character, making basic actions take even longer,.

Are you seriously arguing FFT's clunky menu system is better than the point and click system Heroes f Might and MAgic uses?

>comparing an SRPG where moving units to enemy units to attack is a basic logical staple of the subgenre to attacking in a Western CRPG

Heroes of Might and Magic is not a crpg, it's a strategy RPG. and Units in Heroes ALSO have to move to enemy units to attack, you complete moron.

SaGa Frontier has technically the same setting type as PS:T but better, the cyberpunk is just one facet of a few regions, there's nothing cyberpunk in Fascinaturu or Owmi since they're different regions, or planes.

What purpose does a dancer serve in an adventuring party? Bards are a stable of fantasy fiction because they have varied skillsets, knowledge, etc.

>SaGa Frontier has technically the same setting type as PS:T but better

>SaGa Frontier
>better world building than Planescape
This is your brain on weebshit

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almost any RPG has a better setting than PS:T because they bothered to make one themselves

You haven't played PS:T, 99% of the people who praise WRPGs don't play them.

Do you still insist on talking about games you don't play, Beep?
How many times do you have to embarass yourself and conveniently forget it the day after?

Why are you taking FFT as reference in the first place? Not to mention the controls are made with a controller in mind, the interface suffers due to the input method but that's not entirely on the game
The LUCT remake makes it so you attack by just selecting your unit and the enemy unit anyways (not to mention it's leagues far more complex and involved than any Heroes game), what's the problem? FFT is clunky shit sure but that's just a single game in an entire subgenre, and you can do all it asks you to in a second at most with proper muscle memory.

>almost any RPG has a better setting than PS:T because they bothered to make one themselves
So what you're saying is that SaGa Frontier has better world building than War & Peace because War & Peace didn't create their own setting.

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If you have to resort to such a ridiculous false equivalency, you've already conceded your point

>The LUCT remake makes it so you attack by just selecting your unit and the enemy unit anyways
False. It's the exact same interface style as FFT.

So talking about games you never played isn't enough anymore and you resort to talking about books you never read?
Redditors, this is your mindset.

>If you have to resort to such a ridiculous false equivalency, you've already conceded your point
What false equivalency? Your argument is that Planescape: Torment has a shitty setting because the developers didn't bother to create it themselves. The same applies to War & Peace.

The fact that you're dodging my question speaks volumes. You can't refute this.

Stop talking about games you've never played.

>What false equivalency?
the one where you compare real life in a book versus a fantasy world in a game

>the one where you compare real life in a book versus a fantasy world in a game
How is that a false equivalency? The 'real life' is the setting for that book, just like the tabletop setting of Planescape is the setting for that game.

>jrpg fans when they read this

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In a JRPG Dancers provide unique buffs and debuffs that apply to multiple enemies at a time.

I personally dislike the DnD/WRPG Bard because they're just some sort of half assed mix of a caster and Rogue.

Lmao never ever westakeks.

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comparing fantasy created world to real life is a false equivalency, only exacerbated by the fact that you're bringing a completely different entertainment medium. planescape is lazy, even the most hodgepodge thrown together jRPG world has more effort thrown into it

>In a JRPG Dancers provide unique buffs and debuffs that apply to multiple enemies at a time.
And what does that have to do with dancing again? That's just a spellcaster wearing the skin of a dancer. It's the most laziest kind of class design possible.

Western RPGs actually try to give classes distinct mechanics that actually convey the identity of those classes.

Are you seriously arguing FFT's clunky menu system is better than the point and click system Heroes f Might and MAgic uses?
Not at all, I don't even care about both games. Your shitty meme picture suggests FFT to be the end all be all of Japanese RPG's or I suppose SRPG's since I guess you weren't meticulous enough to write that moniker under each comparison.
FE, Advanced Wars, Devil Survivor and that's just a few on the top of my head already have a quick select attack feature, yet you just go for the low hanging fruit of a title that didn't have that yet and that's my issue with you.
Don't you see how stupid it is to present the otherside as outdated and as shitty as possible when it's just plain wrong? What if an alternate version of you, let's say JRPG-kun went and took some ancient ass WRPG like the first few Ultima games as representative of all WPRG's and compared it to a JRPG title that has a specific feature Ultima wouldn't have when there's a perfectly recent WPRG that does have those specific features? Isn't that retarded? That's basically you.

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Check out the SaGa series

Then I guess I'm just remembering my 350 hours in that game wrong, then. Shows how irrelevant it is.
Doesn't change the fact it's a far, far more mechanically complex game in contrast to pretty much every western equivalent out there.

>planescape is lazy, even the most hodgepodge thrown together jRPG world has more effort thrown into it

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these images are great, because in every single one the jRPGs are widely acclaimed titles while no one cares about the wRPG trash on dispaly.

This doesn't explain anything to me user. Sell me on it and why it justifies the idea of leveling. Or maybe it removes it? I don't know anything about SaGa, it's not exactly a game many people have played.

>die in planescape
>you don't reset the game from the start and appear at the morgue everytime
shit game, like I said. nothing in that image is about worldbuilding anyway

Why does OP have autism?

>The protagonist will automatically spring back to life if his HP drops to 0
This is the kind of game WRPG-kun praises, not that he plays it.

>That's just a spellcaster wearing the skin of a dancer. It's the most laziest kind of class design possible.
>Only spellcasters can mass buff/debuff
Funny you say that when D&D's bard class and various subtypes/prestige related classes are literally another flavour of gish.
>Western RPGs actually try to give classes distinct mechanics
Like what? Bardic Knowledge to do what other classes do but worse? Performances that are literally mass the buffs/debuffs you accuse dancers of?

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>Doesn't change the fact it's a far, far more mechanically complex game in contrast to pretty much every western equivalent out there.
Complex in what way? Tactics Ogre doesn't even have something as basic as a a stealth system or a true visibility system (everyone is always magically visible to each other, even if a unit is standing behind a wall nobody could see him from), which is a basic feature in western tactics games.

>This doesn't explain anything to me user.
Don't believe the memes. SaGa has the shitty elder scrolls type xp system and level scaling.

JRPGs have plenty of issues but I don't think more mechanics is automatically better. If anything WRPGs often suffer from mechanics bloat, which is why they're such a nightmare to balance.

>which is a basic feature in western tactics games.
It isn't.

yeah, wRPGfags are known to be low IQ. If that wasn't bad enough, you can pause the game at any point and use unlimited, cheap to purchase healing items at any time with zero consequences. This is considered one of the best wRPGs of all time btw.

>elder scrolls type xp
It doesn't, SaGa also doesn't have level scaling.

The alluring moves of a Dancer can captivate an enemy make them lose turns (FFT), or invigorate an ally into getting another turn (FE)

>Western RPGs actually try to give classes distinct mechanics that actually convey the identity of those classes.
I doubt that, a Bard is not unique in WRPG. What separates a Fighter from a Barbarian, that one can Fury once an encounter? A Cleric and a Paladin, one is more specialized for their religion of choice? A Wizard and Druid, they're just determined by their minor flavor of spellcasting.

Thanks for telling the truth (I assume). I don't care enough to do my own research so I'll take this to the grave. God, leveling is awful. I wish this meme would die.

>WRPG
Character creation
>JRPG
Style

If only JRPGs had character creation, or WRPGs had style.

>Like what?
The fact that bard songs actually utilize sound (so for example being deaf makes you immune to their songs) is already lightyears beyond what jrpgs do. Bard songs demoralize enemies, or embolden allies, which makes sense, since they're performers, unlike the generic buffs/debuffs of jrpg dancers. Bards, because of their knowledge of poetic sagas and the like, also have higher lore skills, allowiwng them to better identify items. those are just a few things.

It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than your typical abstract jrpg mechanics.

So you're the faggot who complained in the underrail threads a few days ago, that style is unmistakable.
It's also amazing how dumb you are to believe some random idiot on on Yea Forums, then again, you already proved you aren't exactly the sharpest knife.

The majority of SaGa games don't have traditional leveling, rather it's like FF2 where individual stats will level up through what you do in combat instead of having XP and character levels. It's not really like Elder Scrolls, it's still a turn-based RPG. Your characters also semi-randomly learn new techniques in battle (there's a lot of complexities that go into this system) based on the weapons/magic they use. It's very much unlike any other RPG system, check it out.

>It isn't.

>what is jagged alliance
>what is x-com
>what is silent storm
>what is invisible inc
>what is basically every western tactics game ever made

Heck, even Baldur's Gate has fog of war and stealth

>The fact that bard songs actually utilize sound (so for example being deaf makes you immune to their songs) is already lightyears beyond what jrpgs do.
You don't seriously believe that, do you?

>It's very much unlike any other RPG system
It's literally a ripoff of Dungeon Master, a party-based RPG which came out a year bfore ff2 and had a learn-by-use system that FF2 and SaGa would adopt, where your stats and skills improved by repeatedly performing certain actions. Dungeon Master also had no levels.

Beep, please, please do not lie so boldly, I say it as somebody who actually plays games.

>You don't seriously believe that, do you?
I do, and the fact that you can't come up with a single counter-argument, and that you misrepresent my post by leaving all my other arguments, tells me you tacitly agree with me.

Having sound be an actual factor is the most basic thing you have to do if you're going to implement bards/dancers in your RPG. The jrpgs you keep jerking off lack even this basic feature, which is mindboggingly stupid.

>It's literally a ripoff of Dungeon Master
It really isn't, you would know if you played either of those games.
It's not like Dungeon Master came up with the "natural" growth model either, but what do you know, you only talk about games, games you never played to begin with.

>Having sound be an actual factor is the most basic thing you have to do if you're going to implement bards/dancers in your RPG
Name five RPGs that do this.

>It's not like Dungeon Master came up with the "natural" growth model either
It didn't. But it was certainly the game to popularize that systm in video game RPGs.

It never ceass to amaze me how ignorant SaGa games are of the RPG genre.

lmao sorry bud, I've never been in a single Underrail thread in my life, the most I know about the game is the ~2 minutes I spent skipping through sseth's video on it while eating a Big Mac with extra Big Mac Sauce (thank you McDonalds for sponsoring this post).
Why shouldn't I just accept the first thing I am told about the series? I had no interest in it before and it's not like I care to enter threads about it or talk about it with other people in the future either. You're acting awfully asspained (a lie, since you're sitting slouched in your chair with no expression rn anyways), so why not lighten up a bit? What I, a literal who, choose to believe about some obscure franchise with no discussion is of less than zero consequence to your life.

>I do, and the fact that you can't come up with a single counter-argument
Do I really have to bother with the simple fact that sound being an actual mechanic is pretty much non existent in actual WRPG and one of the many tabletop mechanics that are rarely if ever integrated?
>The jrpgs you keep jerking off lack even this basic feature
So do the WRPGs you keep jerking off, your Bardic Performances in something like Neverwinter affects a stone golem just like how it affects your party members for instance.

>lmao sorry bud, I've never been in a single Underrail thread in my life
Sure user, I totally believe you, especially now that you mentioned Sseth's video as the perfect giveaway.

To name a few
>Chaos Frames
>Tarots
>Crafting and all things associated with it
>Codas
>Loyalty
>Class variety, skills, classmarks, freedom to builds
>Map designs and it's relations to classes
And visibility systems are outright awful and only get in the way of proper strategy. Stealth is a worthless gimmick, baggage that needs to be cut (and was, in actual understanding of game design)
The only japanese SRPG I've played with line of sight, fog of war and stealth (somewhat) has been Valkyria Chronicles and it just shows how unnecessary and outright stupid as a mechanic that is.
Imagine actually advocating for lack of clarity in a game all about proper strategy and resource management, you're a fucking retard and I hope you never make a game in your life

>ripoff of Dungeon Master

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Japan hasn't even made one FPS and we're expecting them to make Deus Ex? Go easy on them.

So mad you can't even type straight now Beep?

You are the most autistic person in this thread
congratulations

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What game is that?
Looks neat.

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>Japan hasn't even made one FPS
Wrong, it was surprisingly decent

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Does Kings Field count?

>Do I really have to bother with the simple fact that sound being an actual mechanic is pretty much non existent in actual WRPG and one of the many tabletop mechanics that are rarely if ever integrated?
So you're just making shit up now? This shit exists in wrpgs:

nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Deafened

>A deafened character is unable to hear. The character automatically fails Listen checks, has a 20% chance of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components.

>Deafened people cannot be affected by a Bard's songs, or even certain spells which require you to hear its effects. Being deaf does not automatically protect you from sonic damage, as this is caused by sound waves whether they are heard or not.

Furthermore, turn-based wrpgs like Jaggd Alliance 2, Silent Storm and Invisible Inc have sound propagation systems. For example, in Jagged Alliance There are four different movement modes (running, walking, crouching, or going prone) that asks you to make a trade-off between how much sound you make, how fast you move and how much stamina and action points. Firing a gun also produces noise, naturally, whereas melee attacks or throwing knives are relatively silent. These are all important considerations when going for a stealthy approach.

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Gimmicky subsystems (and terrible ones at that. the tarot shit lets you rewind any mistakes you make) are no substitute for basic features like a real visibility system.

Go back to playing your shitty weebtrash, moron. You'd have a heart attack if you tried to play something like Jagged Alliance 2.

Still waiting on those five games that use this all important mechanic that changed everything™

I think this image has the opposite effect of what was intended. The further down this list you go the better Lost Odyssey sounds as a videogame, but you already know that what your reading is clearly biased from the first paragraph.

>Still waiting on those five games that use this all important mechanic that changed everything™
I already listed five in the post you're replying to. NWN 1, NWN2, Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm and Invisible Inc.

Fucking hell, you can really tell that most weebtards have never played any western strategy or tactical game if they think shit like FF Tactics and TO: LUCT are mechanically deep. How the fuck could they not have any self awareness?

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>This shit exists in wrpgs:
As a status effect, that is barely ever relevant in NWN2 especially (Which you'd knew if you actually played it), woah, and the funny thing is that having to somehow deafen a golem in the first place is completely normal to you.
But yeah, keep listing mechanics without mentioning if they ever matter, beep, you're sure convincing a lot of people about how bloated and broken WRPGs are.

>I think this image has the opposite effect of what was intended.
Congratulations, you are mentally handicapped.

I was not aware that Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm and Invisible Inc. were WRPGs with bards.

>I was not aware that Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm and Invisible Inc. were WRPGs with bards.
We were talking about sound as a gameplay mechanic, not just bards.

To add on this, the extremely funny thing about the deafen status outside of being pretty much nonexistent in any of the FOUR campaigns in the game is that there is barely any enemy in the game that can use bardic performance, in fact I struggle to remember an encounter in all of the campaigns where I was deafened, and I replayed through NWN2 barely one year ago, TODAY.

>Having sound be an actual factor is the most basic thing you have to do if you're going to implement bards/dancers in your RPG
Right.

>still no vidya rpg where I can summon a powerful entity and make him slaughter my enemies while robbing everyone it sees blind and has the ability to put tiny bombs in food
TTRPGs>powergap>>>>>>>>>literal shit>vidyarpgs

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I'd say I just have better reading comprehension. In the context of the image, PS:T sounds like a bad videogame in comparison, when in reality its a good game that did some unique things in its genre. It doesn't help that the text tries its hardest to oversimplify lost Odyssey either in attempt to make it look bad in comparison, while accomplishing the polar opposite due to its clear bias. Its a very confused, incohesive little essay.

It'd honestly be better if the maker just said "Soul vs Soulless" at this point. At least it'd serve as a jump off for some real discourse.

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>and has the ability to put tiny bombs in food
You mean a witch?

>tiny bombs
Fuck off Battler.

>It doesn't help that the text tries its hardest to oversimplify lost Odyssey
What does it oversimplify? If anything, the image spends too much text explaining Lost Odyssey's mechanics,

The issue is that Lost Odyssey, despite ostensibly being a game with a unique premise, plays out like any bogstandard jrpg, both gameplay-wise and narratively. It doesn't even make an attempt to leverage that premise in any way.

>The issue is that Planescape Torment, despite ostensibly being a game with a unique premise, plays out like any bogstandard wrpg, both gameplay-wise and narratively. It doesn't even make an attempt to leverage that premise in any way.
Fixed that for you.

>Using logic on Beepzorz shitposting
He's literally an angry redditor

The industry and market in Japan in general is very conservative, they want linear narrative focused rpg experiences as it's always worked. the west values more freedom orientated dnd esque games, the east values linear narrative focused experiences.

I imagine also platform has a lot to do with it, there is a lot less innovation to be had on consoles compared to pc. Imagine trying to create a game like Deus Ex from scratch on ps2 hardware, and imagine trying to sell that the corporate men in suits at the top. Open ended, non linear and innovative experiences that really push the medium forward mechanically which you find on pc are simply not as easy to develop for consoles.

also keep in mind the west benefited in the 90s from simply a very innovative scene, if it wasn't for a very specific chain of events that started with Ultima and Doom being a huge success, Romero would have never let Spector make his "dream game". While consoles were dominated by large publishers, the pc was almost basically a wild west of different barely struggling studios churning out pretty innovative games where pushing the medium forward graphically and mechanically was seen as very ideal. that kind of climate allowed for studios like Looking Glass, id, Interplay, etc to survive, and make very innovative games in general.

no such climate exists anywhere anymore, everything has been consolidated and game budgets have become enormous.

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Weebtards cannot provide any argument, just read through the thread again. None of them refute any points made against JRPGs or justifications for WRPGs. Case in point, this pathetic user, He couldn't even provide any counter-argument and keeps trying to move the goal post and being in denial.

I'm still waiting on five WRPGs with bards that have that all important sound mechanic that changed everything™

>Discordtranny calling out other people
>Complaining about weeaboos on Yea Forums

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>Fixed that for you.
Except Planescape: Torment isn't bogstandard. It was a radical departure from crpgs at the time. Pre-defined main character rather than one created from scratch. Heavier emphasis on story than any crpg ever made. De-emphasis on combat in favor of npc interaction. Characters grow stronger not just through combat, but also through dialogue. No traditional equipment, in favor of unconventional stuff like tattoos.

Unlike Lost Odyssey, Planescape uses RPG mechanics to convey personal character growth. Look at Lost Odyssey, where the RPG systems are only about combat and how efficient you can kill stuff, and the story is delivered entirely through non-interactive cutscenes where characters act without the player's input.. By contrast, in Planescape: Torment there are not really any cutscenes. Even the final boss waits patiently for you to click on him to initiate dialogue. You not only have full control over what your character says, but your stats determine what insights you can glean from the world around you, uncovering more of the mystery of your past lives and becoming a wiser and more introspective person in the process.

>It was a radical departure from crpgs at the time
It really wasn't, hardly anything you mentioned is something Planescape did first.

>I think this image has the opposite effect of what was intended. The further down this list you go the better Lost Odyssey sounds as a videogame, but you already know that what your reading is clearly biased from the first paragraph.
How is shit like the memories in Lost Odyssey being nothing but non-interactive walls of text better than the memories in Planescape, where they are actually reliant on player actions (doing things that trigger memories, having high enough mental stats to recall the memories) and can effct both gameplay and narrative?

>Even the final boss waits patiently for you to click on him to initiate dialogue
Once again this is the kind of game WRPG-kun praises, not that he's played it.

Sorry for destroying your narrative but I do like the cute girls and tiddies in JRPGs but the fact still stands, in terms of gameplay, JRPG suck big balls. If we're arguing that JRPGs have more attractive character designs than WRPGs, I'll agree with that because characters in WRPGs are unattractive, that's why I always download custom portraits for characters if the option to custome character portraits exist. But now we're discussing about gameplay so yeah, I'm still waiting for weebtards to provide any counter-argument.

>Sorry for destroying your narrative but I do like the cute girls and tiddies in JRPGs but the fact still stands, in terms of gameplay, JRPG suck big balls.
Who are you trying to fool, riajuu?

>Japanese RPGs seem to come in two flavors: menu-based combat (usually turn-based) or 3rd person action-combat..and that's basically it Whereas ith western RPGs, the sky is the limit, and there's no restriction to what kind of game mechanics they can implemen

you mean western rpgs sometimes use FPS view too, and that's fucking it? Otherwise they also fall into either the action combat or menu combat, because a combat is either one or the other you moron

>Where is the Japanese equivalent of something like Heroes of Might and Magic
HoMM is a strategy game, not an rpg. Otherwise there are tons of Japanese rpgs with combat like Homm's, why even bring it up in your combat related thread if you only talk about it's not combat related unique mechanics, which just fall into the standard strategy genre? There are many Japanese games that combine lot's of rpg mechanics with mechanics of other genre, rythm games, puzzle games, simulators, shoot them ups, platformers, etc

>Persona is set in urban Japan, yet you end up with the same bog-standard dungeon crawling and fantasy tropes you see everywhere else.
the whole sims /"managing the days in your calendar with your highschool life activities outside of dungeons" is a pretty unique mechanic to the Persona series, dungeons are only half of the game, this combination is what makes persona unique. I don't think you actually played any of them but just watched a video about a dungeon
> fantasy tropes you see everywhere else
again, you should probably play one of the games. Persona has a very unique style, definitely not your "bog-standard" fantasy tropes.

>shilling some obscure game
Were you really that stunned that someone combined a "bog-standard" stealth game with some rpg mechanics and thought it is some revolutionary design? You are not praising rpg mechanics in this game, you are just praising basic stealth gameplay. Tere are plenty of Japanese games that combine different genres with rpg mechanics.

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>I think all JRPGs are Final Fantashit and Persona: the post

i want a combination of both. any games like that?

Morrowind looks better than I remember

The only impressive WRPG as of late has been Underrail.

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>JRPGcuck likes movie games
Sad

Western devs don't even make wrpgs anymore. Seethe.

you spend over half of planescape in text boxes, not even the most egregious cases jRPGs like xenosaga have half the game being cutscenes

*blocks your path*

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nice job using the worst example you could possibly use with CP2077 being what it is

don't fall for his wrpg-kun's bait, and don't take out your anger on HoMM

HoMM2,3 are great games (even 4 outside of it's ugly artstyle and unbalanced gameplay) but HoMM games are NOT RPGs

It's a strategy game series where your leader characters gains skills and levels, that's it.

Next time he is going to shill Warcraft 3 as an example of the wrpg genre for the same reasons.

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I wouldn't say it's impressive, outside of being made by four based serbs in a garage with a budget of a packet of cigarettes and a cheap beer, but it's by far the best game to actually play in a long time, and surprisingly not even that bad to read, especially compared to the trash Larian, Obsidian or Bioware peddles.

Sure thing, falseflagging weebtards. There's not even one good JRPG recently. Meanwhile we're having WRPG renaissance with DOS2, Underrail, Age of Decadence, Pathfinder: Kingsmaker, ATOM RPG, The Wasteland 2 & 3, etc.

I don't play JRPGs. All what I said is that Underrail is the only good WRPG game out there atm.

>There's not even one good JRPG recently.
Wrong, but you don't play them so what do you know?
>Meanwhile we're having WRPG renaissance
The only good game in there is Underrail and it's nearly five years old.

Even the most casual normie games like Skyrim have 10x more going for them than the latest jrpg if we're talking about freedom and interesting things that happen in the game, because the most popular wrpgs like Fallout and Skyrim are still true to the Ultima formula where you have an open world, towns, side quests, customization, npcs, etc in the true sense, and not in the Final Fantasy movie sense where there's only one way forward and everything is super simple. Japan barely makes rpgs ever, period. Your observation is purely based on the fact that wrpg fans express distaste towards the casualization of their games. Notice that jrpg fans hardly ever do this, since their games are casual already.

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I think the greatest JRPG of all time dark souls does this well, since xp doubles as your gold AND can be lost so the game can create tension without limited lives

Nier Automata, Soulsborne series, Nioh, Dragon Quest 11, Persona 5, Monster Hunter World, Iceborne

all of these are 9/10+ games, unlike the bunch of subpar crap you posted beside DOS2

In wrpgs the dialog is also gameplay, it's influenced by your stats and it affects the story, in weebrpgs you have hours and hours of cutscense and also hours of dialog in which you have no input, at most you choose who to romance

>Skyrim
>Freedom
>A bunch of copypasted rooms with level scaling Draugr
>interesting
You have never played an Ultima game either, maybe you've heard a few things about 7 or 8, so stop pretending.

>Nier Automata, Soulsborne series, Nioh, Monster Hunter World, Iceborne
Those are action games.

>Dragon Quest 11, Persona 5
Wow, more casual rehashes. Great stuff.

It is painful when people say they like games like Monster Hunter, Persona, or Dragon Quest since those games are just a step above mobile games. Japan is the land of mobile casuals, after all. I'm half surprised you didn't stick Pokemon on there too.

wrpgtards like beepzorz are huge casuals. that's why they love casual trash like planescape, and hate jrpgs because most of them expect at least a modicum of skill from the player.

>clicking on dialogue option constitutes as gameplay for wRPGs

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>because most of them expect at least a modicum of skill from the player

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we get it dude, you like the Open World meme

stop believing that this shit means "good game design" just because "it offers more choices", when these options are completely weightless and pretty much just come down to "what visuals you want to see happen first?". There is no strategic gameplay value behind any of this open world option shit you praise so much.

In fact it usually just fucks up the possibility for a well balanced playthrough. In an FF game you can make the combat through your progression very strategic and engaging by just not overleveling, these open world borefests on the other hand are designed with zero strategy in mind OR their balance is so fucked up, you are pretty much always resorted to just cheesing the whole game.

Why would dialogue trees not be considered gameplay? Not every game is like Persona where they are there only for flavor

Soulsborne and MonHun are ARPGs, retards. These two are good and I am currently replaying Dark Souls for old time sake while waiting for Iceborne on PC. JRPGs, on the other hand, are turds like Neptunia, DQ, Fursona, Shit Megami Tensei, Dungeon Traveller, FE, and other weebshit that are just an excuse to peddle waifushit and shonenfag stories at the expense of gameplay. I've never played Nier Automata (an ARPG) so dunno whether it's good or not.

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Um, sweety...

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>It was a radical departure from crpgs at the time.
no, shitty gameplay and ripping off dungeons & dragons has always been bog-standard for wrpgs.

clicking on dialogue options is not gameplay, it's goosebumps choose your scare shit

Yet Skyrim is still far ahead of almost every jrpg, huh? Why are popular wrpgs easy targets for you to criticize, but worse Japanese rpgs (most) are totally off the table? Where does this standard come from? Do you think they are free targets for you, because wrpg fans have higher standards? You should fix your priorities. Become more critical. You can't logically accuse wrpgs of being casual if you're into jrpgs, that makes zero sense.

>You have never played an Ultima game
This sounds like massive cope. I can post a screenshot of every Ultima game I have on GOG right now, if you want.

>Those are action games.
lol, nice damage control westcuck-kun
they have just as much rpg elements as dq11 or p5, but I guess when it comes to Japanese games suddenly only turn based games qualify as rpgs right?

>m-muh mobile games, muh casuals
amazing argument dude, you really proved your point here

Fucking this. Weebs BTFO. Enjoy your cuck rehashes. Everyone knows you're right because nobody is debating you.

>Nier Automata, Soulsborne series, Nioh, Dragon Quest 11, Persona 5, Monster Hunter World, Iceborne
Literally all shit games and everyone knows it.

Another wall of truth from another based WRPGchad. JRPGs aren't role playing and aren't games.

Keep BTFOing weebs, Yea Forumschads. They deserve it for shitting up our board for so many years.

>Soulsborne and MonHun are ARPGs, retards.
and they're made by japanese developers, which makes them jrpgs.

isn't it sad how the only way you can rouse enough interest to discuss wRPGs is by attacking a superior subgenre

Stop all that shit you just posted and tell me why you're so hooked on thinking RPGs are or should be complex, given the bulk of the gameplay is sifting through menus?

I do not pick up an RPG when I want something deep and invigorating to play. There are a slew of games that require skill, practice, forethought, prediction, all sorts of skills hard and soft.

RPGs just require time. When I sit down with one, it's almost invariably in the same way I sit down with a book. Not all are good, not all are bad, you just take what you can get.

WHY, with all the myriad genres, did you choose RPGs as your 'deep, riveting gameplay' genre?

For your fucking reference, all four of those characters do the same shit: sift through menus.
Zidane was pretty retarded as thieves go, though, I'll grant that.

>JRPGs, on the other hand, are turds like Neptunia, DQ, Fursona, Shit Megami Tensei, Dungeon Traveller, FE, and other weebshit that are just an excuse to peddle waifushit and shonenfag stories at the expense of gameplay.
Fucking based. Literally all of these games are reddit shit hated by all of Yea Forums. Glad anons are exposing them for the shit they are.

I prefer the anime graphics of jrpgs but I also prefer the freedom of wrpgs. Is there any game that has both?

Not really. Compare Yea Forums and /vg/ to rpgcodex and it's amazing how different they are.

Cope harder weeb. JRPGs will always and forever be Yea Forums's most hated genre.

>compare the biggest image board on the internet to my tiny safe space

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>Yea Forums‘s most hated genre
And yet there are multiple JRPGS beloved here, have multiple threads based on them, and are generally well liked. I like WRPGs too man, but come on.

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You're on maximum cope level right now. Whatever. Enjoy your movie games if you prefer them over true free experiences, I honestly don't care about your preferences. All I ask is that you stop insisting that wrpgs have been destroyed by being streamlined, but then turn around and say that jrpgs are way better and streamlined games are so much better after all. It's not only a contradiction, but it's pointless, weird and annoying. Stop doing it.

I'm not against western games but this shit

the best western rpgs are the ones that are more similar to jrpgs, like Darkest Dungeon or X-Com. They are straight to the point, you go in, you kill dudes, none of this bloated book shit.

Like you seriously think that just because you have to read instead of watching this is any better than movie crap? It's not like these options even have any strategic gameplay value behind them, since 98% of the time your only reward is just getting to read more boring text, and 2% of the time when some action actually happens it's just a fucking gamble because the characters can react to your replies however the writer felt like.

a straightforward "do you want to pick this or that loot" mechanic offers more meaningful decision making than this bloated book crap

What's up with all the anti-JRPG shilling?

Based WRPGchads exposed them as the worst genre.

Weebs' heads would explode if they played a real game like Deus Ex or Fallout. They;re used to non-games like Shitgon Cuckst or Fursona.

>arpgs are not rpgs
are you mentally handicapped by any chance, you falseflagging faggot

jrpg literally means japanese role playing game. There is no other "genre" than this because you literally can't define it

especially in a fucking thread that generally talks about rpgs made in japan and in the west

you can stop false and samefagging now wrpg-kun

>Shitgon Cuckst
Is this supposed to be Dragon Quest? Yea Forums JRPG fans always dismissed these games as grindy and generic until after DQXI made casual baby mode the standard

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I will never forgive DQXI for ruining this series and being one of the worst games I've ever played. It's literally the FFXIII of Dragon Quest.

you are posting to the wrong user.
I like deep games and mechanics, but your open world shit has nothing to do with that. It's the epitome of "wide as an ocean but deep as a puddle"

a game can be very linear and straightforward but still very deep. Shit like Skyrim will never be more than mindless boring walking-talking simulators with "click enemy to death and pause time to heal back" combat, meanwhile you can easily get very challenging and strategic combat from an FF game if you are simply not overleveled, or best you are slightly weaker in level for the area.

I actually love western rpgs that are like this, Darkest Dungeon is easily among my favorite games, while I could never stand Bethasda's open world crap.

>Yea Forums JRPG fans always dismissed these games as grindy and generic until after DQXI made casual baby mode the standard
There's a reason why XI is considered far and away the worst Dragon Quest game by many longtime fans.

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the 2016 election brought in tons of redditors who hate japanese media because it doesn't promote their woke western politics.

DAMMIT, I read the title and was getting excited for a good /vpol/ thread. I was mistaken.

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I will never not be mad that Nintendo picked fucking Shillminary from Corridor Quest XI as the Dragon Quest rep in Smash.

This is way too much bait for me to handle

>making an unironic reply to wrpg-kun's post when he is in full-seething mode

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I purposely want to keep this thread alive because troll threads such as this one are the only way to get Yea Forums to actually discuss RPGs as a whole and awaken the autists

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it's nice to see the torch of genre flamewars is still burning

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old.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/9jhedh/remembering_final_fantasy_vi_easy_allies/e6s87xy/?context=3
old.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/9ko2b2/unannounced_harry_potter_rpg_trailer/e70qq4h/?context=3
old.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/aft53c/the_jrpg_startup_cost/ee27jdq/?context=3

this is comedy gold, does he post anywhere else?

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>everyone who doesn't like my movie games is this random reddit user
Cope weebs

>didn’t even bother to look it up
Retard.

There are 74 posters on this thread

And now there are 75. What's your point?

That your mom is a whore

take that back

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Dark Souls still suffers from the existence of levels though, see all the fucking retards that grind and powerlevel through the challenge like DSP for example. Leveling stats is dumb and bad for games and is just an archaic convention, as proven by your example.