Japanese Learning Gamers

Because you haven't taken the Heisig pill yet.

>Heisig meme
I laugh at the retards that learn with that shit. It's just the illusion of learning with actual zero benefits. It's fucking dumb

Heisig has been insanely helpful to me in learning vocab. You've just gotta do it fast and get it out of the way. In 2019 the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course might be better but that wasn't around when I did it

>see kanji
>know what this means
>this is somehow useless information
Don't worry user, I won't make you feel bad for not wanting to do any work. You're still a good boy, you're gonna make it some day.

Great, every day, I recently played through Moon, and of course. I prefer it when they have Japanese subs though, but then I like subs on everything.

>see kanji
>know what it looks like
>don't know the actual word
>don't know vocabulary
>don't know how to read
>can't communicate with someone else about it
>"uh.. it.. it looks like that thing... uh..."
>literally a bumbling retard
>still has to learn the actual kanji at a later time anyway

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>>>know what this means
>>this is somehow useless information
You don't know what it means, though. You know a single English keyword that may or may not have any bearing on its meaning, and gives you zero hints as to its reading.

Personally, I like kanji study. What I hate are retards who recommend RTK, that system is pure cancer. Learn readings and actual meanings, not keywords with the hope that at some point down the line you'll tie those keywords to meanings and readings.

After months of RTK, you can't read a single word. With kanji study, you can read a decent amount, and guess the reading of a decent amount more.

>months of RTK
>months
That's the problem right there. Knock it out in a month.

Then you retain even less, or worse, have inflated reps for months because of it.

You know that kun-readings are literally the Japanese equivalent of Heisig keywords, right? You can't be literate and fluent in Japanese without learning the information in RTK. All it does is take a specific set of information you need to learn and make learning it efficient.
>y-yeah but for these five kanji the meanings aren't 100% correct
You do 50 of them a day, how is that a meaningful issue?

>speedrun through it
>still waste a month (!) on useless shit
>don't even learn it properly
>have to re-learn it anyway at a later time
wew

If you don't believe that learning vocabulary becomes much easier with basic kanji recognition, I don't know what to say to you. I'm not saying it's the be-all end-all; I bet KKLC is a better approach nowadays, but RTK isn't useless.

It's not useless, it's just a waste of time

Please quantify that.

>>You know that kun-readings are literally the Japanese equivalent of Heisig keywords
You are joking, right?

The "information" in RTK is mostly junk.

Eh, the jury is out. I think it might slightly improve acquisition speed, but you're talking about saving maybe a month or two at best over multiple years.

My problem with RTK is that it gives you nothing for the effort. It's a starting point at best, and I think that makes it very easy for people to give up on it when they're a few weeks/months in and they can't read a single word yet.

>tfw learned around 1500 joyou kanji, thousand more of related vocab
>can read most manga and decent amount in newspapers
>still more to go
God, this stuff is unending. I like to practice on VNs cuz you get writing + voice, which helps.

As people have already pointed out in this thread, you're just investing more time into doing one activity (kanji recognition) in the hope to postpone/improve a future activity (kanji study) which you have to do anyway in the first place. You're just procrastinating on your actual studies while obtaining a false sense of "improvement".
You're not actually studying anything, it might help a bit, but you're still investing your time poorly when you could just be studying instead.

>tfw know about ~600 kanji
>have somewhat decent vocabulary and able to hold most everyday conversations in Japanese
>still feel like an absolute retard when I try to read pretty much anything that doesn't have furigana
I hope one day to get there... but still

>You are joking, right?
>Chinese scholar goes to Japan
>Look at 水, it means Shuǐ
>... what? oh it means みず
>NO WHAT ARE YOU DOING IT WHY ARE YOU LEARNING MEANINGLESS KEYWORDS?

What the fuck are you even talking about

Yeah, I wish it were feasible to do an experiment with acquisition pace with and without "pre-kanji" study. And I'm certainly not in the position to tell people how to study, just explaining how I feel Heisig worked for me.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. RTK made me quit learning Japanese for like 5 years.

Nigga, I don't even know where to start.
Back to /jp/ for me.

Are you being deliberately retarded?
Kanji represent concepts. They're like numbers. It doesn't matter whether you call 1 one, een, einz, un, uno or ichi. It still means 1. You can attach any sound to it you want. Want to make your own language where a car is called a floobdoob? It's still represented by the kanji 車.
Kun-readings are Japanese words that had a kanji attached to it because the kanji had the same meaning as the word. When you learn Japanese you need to take a concept in your head, like "curtain" and then attach both the relevant kanji and the relevant sound to it. Learning them at the same time doesn't help anything because the sound doesn't dictate the shape, the meaning does.

Not the user you're responding to, but you're actually wasting your time. If you're willing to go through all that effort to visually recognize a kanji, you might as well learn its most used kun and on readings and use radicals to create mnemonics to make recognition stick.

It's harder, sure, but at least you learn the fucking things.

what? I understand like half the words the other half are still bleep blorp skimbambo wiggle woah

Why? What's the added benefit in doing those two things at the same time?

Kanji aren't "concepts", they are words. And they can be composed/merged together to form multiple words (see: jukugo). And depending on how they are composed together, and other pseudo-random historical reasonings, the way you read them out loud changes.

Just knowing the "concept" of a kanji is not gonna help for shit, since you will need to learn the vocabulary for that individual kanji and THEN learn all other vocabulary for the various jukugo that use that kanji (with various degrees of on or kun readings). So you're basically just duplicating the effort of a) learning to recognize the "concept" of a kanji out in the wild and b) eventually having to learn the kanji itself.
It's even more ridiculous when you think about all those words that have different kanji in them that don't relate to the "concept" of the kanji itself, so you're basically just wasting effort for very little benefit and very slow progress.

I think you might have autism or something. Let's say I learn 車 as くるま, you know, the way you're supposed to. You learn it as "car", because you're braindead.

We both encounter the word 車いす. Because I'm not retarded, I know what an いす is. Hell, even if I don't, I can look it up easily, or ask someone, because I can type 車 by typing "kuruma" and hitting space, or just say the word aloud. Meanwhile, you're stumbling around asking people to please tell you what a car-chair is or something.

What's the added benefit in learning them separately?

Because they go hand in hand. Learning to visually recognize kanji without actually learning to use them is just added work. You won't remember half of your recognition patterns because they're built on nothing.

If you do kanji study, not only do you visually recognize them, but you also learn them. If you do your thing, you kinda recognize some kanji in a vague symbolic manner, then you have to learn them AGAIN through kanji study. Complete waste of time, but you do you.

>Let's say I learn 車 as くるま
I want you to test something. Go to your mom and teach her this, and only this. You are not allowed to use the word "car". Then show her a picture of a street and tell her to point at the くるま. Will she point at the right thing?
>What's the added benefit in learning them separately?
Efficiency. It's efficient to learn kanji from simple to complex by adding components one at a time. Everything builds on and reinforces each other. It's not the same for sounds. The readings are actually useless until you get around to the relevant vocabulary. By splitting things up you get to learn both kanji and vocabulary in a logical and efficient order.

You can draw kanji to look them up, and even if you couldn't, furigana is widely available for beginner material... As far as learning meanings before readings, I would agree that either way is fine. I would personally recommend doing rtk, because one -- it isn't that big of a time commitment, and two -- it is easier to learn readings or words when you have meanings or images to associate them with. That's why Chinese people generally have an easier time learning Japanese compared to Westerners.

Your strategy is actually the opposite of efficiency. Kanji study naturally leads to vocab study. In fact, they reinforce one another. All you're doing is adding a extra, useless and time consuming step that you already do in kanji study.

I'm done arguing with you, and hope the other anons will be too. You're never going to learn Japanese, sorry.

>You are not allowed to use the word "car"
What the fuck are you talking about nigger. Why can't you learn both vocabulary AND reading with kanji?
What's so complex in learning that 車 means "car" AND that "car" in Japanese is くるま?
Are you not trying to learn vocabulary? Especially since chances are you should already know more vocabulary than kanji (thanks to listening/speaking practice), concretizing your vocab knowledge into kanji studies makes it even better.

As it is now you're basically just learning that 車 means "car", and then moving on without even knowing how to say "car" in Japanese. It's pointless, you're going to need that in the future anyway, learn it now instead of being a nigger and wanking to the idea of learning Japanese instead of, you know, actually learning it.

I did both RTK and actual kanji study though. There was effectively no extra time involved in coming up with mnemonics that contained reading keywords, and it meant I was effectively cramming 3-5 times more information into the same span of time.

Chinese people generally have an easier time because they already KNOW half the readings, they're just slightly different pronunciations. See 水 meaning Shuǐ earlier? In Japanese, it's "sui". Feng Shui is "fun sui". Not to mention the similar grammar structures, and all the shared words because the Japanese literally imported thousands of words direct from china when they brought over kanji.

Your strategy has no basis in reality.

>t is easier to learn readings or words when you have meanings or images to associate them with. That's why Chinese people generally have an easier time learning Japanese compared to Westerners.
What is stopping you from doing that and also learning the actual word?

>learn it now
Why? I learned it a month later, what did I miss out on? I can read novels just fine, am I reading them wrong because there was too much time in between? Is there a time limit?

I can't even remember my damn Hiragana, it's so fucking simple but i just can't remember it!
How am i expected to learn Kanji when i can hardly even understand the baby steps....

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>How's your Japanese learning going, Yea Forumsros?
Same as always
>Are you doing your kanji reps?
Nope
>Any cool Japanese games you've been practicing on?
Last game I played in Japanese was Xenoblade 2
>Do you watch anime unsubbed yet?
No I only watch Japanese drama series. About to watch the new episode of 刑事7人 (tv-asahi.co.jp/keiji7_05/).
Of course I don't use subtitles.

>I learned it a month later, what did I miss out on?
You know, actually learning the language. But at least we agree that it's a time waste and duplicates effort, so glad we reached that conclusion.

I haven't been really studying at all lately to be honest
passed N1 when I took it like 2 years ago, didn't even study for it since the whole thing is multiple choice, which I didn't quite get how that tests "Japanese knowledge" when I don't write anything and don't have to say a single word in Japanese either
in other words I don't think I'm actually N1 level even though I do have a paper that says I am

>actually learning the language
Like, the feeling of learning a language? Because I learned the language just fine, and faster than most people do. Are you just mad that you spent two years going through Wanikani?
What effort did I duplicate? There were two parts, I learned one first, and then the other.

N1 level is about comprehension, not output.

guess I'm just more used to things like FCE/CAE/CPE in English, where it's about knowing all parts of the language, both comprehension and actual output by writing and speaking

>Feng Shui is "fun sui".
風水 is FŪ-SUI.
>Not to mention the similar grammar structures,
in terms of grammar, Japanese is really different from chinese in many ways

It's bizarre to me how many people dismiss out of hand the notion of some quick and simple scaffolding to acquaint yourself with 2200 fucking characters.

It was put on hold along with my school and life to pay off tons of medical bills. Maybe someday I will actually get my life back 疑う

I kinda want to take N1 just to see how it goes but from where I live to the nearest test it's a 4 hour drive and I have no idea what to do with the paper anyways.

the sample questions on this site are exactly what the test itself is like, so you can give these a try if you want
jlpt.jp/e/samples/forlearners.html

Kanji fucking sucks but it's not too bad if you learn the radicals first. Actually writing them down and learning stroke orders also helps a lot.

But also WHY THE FUCK DOES THE START OF 右 AND 左 HAVE DIFFERENT STROKE ORDERS

Just use WaniKani you morons. Add a couple of custom scripts and if you want to be fancy and learn active use, connect it to KaniWani.
Literally the single most efficient way to learn kanji in the world.

>it actually does have different stroke order
sky.icn-tv.ne.jp/~monokuro/torivia.htm
oh well, I never really much for that kind of stuff apart from making my writing legible
besides, other languages write the horizontal stroke first

Nothing is stopping you. It's a supplement that makes acquiring the actual word easier. I even said in the original post it was completely optional.

Far less than "half" of the readings are similar between the two languages. I have no idea where you got that information. Sure, there are a small handful of words like that, but to suggest half or even close to half is laughable. I'm not even going to get into the point you made about grammar between the two languages being similar.
I really don't even think you have a point anymore. You're just trying to flex your first year Japanese knowledge by using words like water or car as examples or saying that kanji came from China. Bro... Everyone knows that basic shit.
It's obvious you care about learning Japanese, so I'm not gonna trash you or argue with you anymore because we're on the same side here. Good luck with your studies

Kanji is easier than Kana. Have around 3k words in my vocabulary, still stumble a lot with Katakana because of its comparative rarity.

Not him, but the VAST MAJORITY of kanji have onyomi, which is ALWAYS derived from the original chinese reading. If you learn a little about the phonetic transformation history, you'll find that most of them do, indeed, resemble relatively strongly to their Chinese counterparts.

I remember the explanation quite well
>知らねぇ

What's the name of this app? Looks cool

grindr

Listening was really easy, reading too if I knew the vocab.
Failed one vocab early because I didn't know what いたわる means.
Fuck counting the scholarships this indonesian guy can apply for.

You think I'd pass?

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I think when I tried the samples I had 3 or 4 wrong at the time, the いたわる question was definitely one of those I had wrong
I think you could pass, yeah. Keep in mind I didn't study for the test at all, just went in and tried it since I happened to be in the city the exam was held in and it cost like $40 so I thought might as well try N1

The main thing I remember is the listening part being harder than what's in those sample questions.
How the listening section was for me was that they had a CD programmed with wait times and everything so once it starts, there's no pausing at all.
Also they won't repeat the listening section at all, so if you miss something, you have to guess.
But still, every question is a multiple choice and afaik there's no penalty for wrong answers so even if you miss something, it's better to put one of the options in at random for that 25% chance of picking the correct answer.

Neat. I've had the shin kanzen master N1 downloaded but never looked at it.
If I ever take the test then I'll go through that frist and make sure to nail it so I didn't drive 4 hours for nothing.

Wait, usually they play the listening twice for these things, don't they? I took the cambridge certificate in school and they did so back then, but thankfully this test has no writing / speaking parts.

Yeah, it shouldn't be a problem to pass if you actually study for it.
Besides, you need like 55% of the points to pass (100 out of 180 points)
>Wait, usually they play the listening twice for these things, don't they?
Hmmm, it's been two years but I do remember thinking that and being surprised when it was only played once