Newest tier list is in

>mfw both my mains are bottom-tier

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Sheik? More like weik.

this games meta is boring as shit, i hate all of the top tiers. all of the actual interesting fighters are shit.

apps.warchamp7.com/smash/rosterUlt/

how is plant bottom tier?

>joker isnt op hes just being carried!
Fuck retards who parrot this

Isn't there literally one guy that plays Joker?

I miss Smash 4 Bayo now.

Slow and everything is predictable. Plus you can shield all of his attacks and punish him

>not one post asking for source

Not after he dumpstered everyone w

It's the non-tippers being fuckall unsafe on shield and on hit. Sure you're aiming for non-tips but if you fuck up real easily, they get practically no knockback and can retaliate instantly. Lucina's just more consistent even though Marth can do cool things she just works in more scenarios.

I guess I'm asking how this list is even made? Or

hackurai really loves Persona, he even nerfed Ivysaur instead of Joker after watching EVO.

>my nigga mr flamin crotch chilling at 2.7

Feels good to be mediocre. Highest he's ever been haha...

List of players' charts included: i.imgur.com/nOt4QSe.png

If you'd like to see all the data and keep up with things live, check out the Google spreadsheet.

Methodology

Both tier placement and ordering within tiers is taken into account.

Tier score

The highest tier is 5 points, the lowest is 0 points, and tiers in between are scored based on how many tiers there are in total.

Example with a lot of tiers: i.imgur.com/AOkuOpR.jpg (this particular list is very outdated)

Example with very few tiers: i.imgur.com/0Stk1ct.jpg (this particular list is very outdated)

These are averaged together to give each character their overall tier score.

Rank score

This is a simple ranking from #1 to #73 ignoring the tiers themselves. These are averaged together to give each character their overall rank score.

Currently, Joker has the best with a #3.93 and K Rool the worst with a #68.44.

Final score

The rank score is put through a formula to match the structure of the tier score. For example, a rank score of #1 would convert to a perfect 5.000, and a rank score of #73 would convert to a "perfect" 0.000.

After that, the converted rank score and tier score are averaged together to give each character their final score.

For example, ZSS has a tier score of 4.335 and a rank score of #12.52. This rank score converts to 4.189, which is averaged with her tier score to create her final score of 4.262.

>ignores all the other 4.8 characters

Why is pkmn trainer so high? It's my main but I feel I do better with whatever other character I pick. Has he won any mayors?

Joker is still the best out of all of those.

>Highest he's ever been haha...
DUDE

My boy R.O.B. putting in some work.

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No, if you pay attention to the post above, it's because he's being carried. The others are more consistent.

K. Roolbros...

Seriously though, what happened to Sheik? Didn't she used to be amazing?

>K. Roolfags rallied for a character that is now completely useless
Should have picked Ashley instead.

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they nerfed the living shit out of her after tr4sh, then released better shiek (joker)

I rate Ness.

>Rool in last place
I refuse to believe this.

where is the bear and birb

I main piranha and Isabel

honestly i think hes better than mac and kirby

> roy above chrom
?

too early

Only plus side is he has amazing recovery and is pretty tanky. That's about all he has going for him though.

Better recovery and the sweet spot being at the base of the sword isn't as big of a disadvantage as tippers are.

I thought hero was broken

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>top tier is literally just a list of the only characters I ever fight anymore in Elite Smash
Color me fucking surprised. God people are boring

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Wait this can't be right, I was told Ganondorf was way OP.

Only when you have lag helping you out.

soon megaman will be considered the best once he's figured out

No. Joker was all along, and people said he was mid tier when he came out. Dumbest community of all time.

PokeTrainer has a shit ton of representation and is extremely versatile due to basically being two very good characters in one (plus Charizard). idk about victories off the top of my head but Tweek has put in some serious work with the character.

>inkling's top tier
then why am I so bad....

Don't follow tier lists, just play what you love and have fun with. Anything and everything is viable if you are good enough with em

Until you reach evo top8 or any big money tourney

until the winner earns more than a hotdog and a handshake, sure

Banjo's mid to high, right?

Yeah, because that's going to happen.

All Samus needs to be high tier is to fix her zair, buff homing missile startup, and give super missile a hurtbox

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Exactly, now that we've cleared that up, yea play who you want, my mains are borderline bottom tier and I'm sure as fuck not gonna change that

>my robo boy is finally "high tier" after 3 games
>...but still doesn't have his own stage despite being in smash for 10 years now

wtf

tier list doesn't apply to anything other than tournament play, user

Below Mario but ahead of Luigi, probably

So top 6 and no mayors? How is this list made? Same with how people feel that hero and banjo are OP?

He doesn't exactly have a game.

>Anything and everything is viable
Manlet cope

zoomer detected

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>Wario amost as high as a spacie and higher than ZSS or Fox

Mega based

>Only top tiers are viable
Pool drowner cope

Explain how you would make a stage of this.

Holy shit you autistic tier whores are pathetic garbage. Any character can be "top tier" get fucking good. Essentially every character is the same, you're just required to play in a slightly different style. It's a fucking party game. Don't @ me either faggots

Wake me up when a link wins a major

this is why people get surprised when a character like duck hunt makes top 8 at evo

Literally just take any stage from Gyromite and make a stage out of it

blue and red pillars moving either at random or depending on certain criteria

smicks running about

etc.

try being creative sometime, zoomer

Why do you keep calling them mayors?

What do we need to do to get this boy a home stage and an actual remix of Gyromite to go along with the mistitled Stack-Up remix.

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>a character has to "win a major" to be viable
mega yikes
pool drowner confirmed

>Anything and everything is viable if you are good enough with em
t. Karen

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You've been invited to the smash house for din-dins. Your main will be doing the cooking. How fucked are you?

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Seething. And reddit spacing. ROB will never get a stage.

I hope the ease of getting arsene gets nerfed so that I can actually play joker without the other guy either being obnoxious or a pussy during the match

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I dont see how Olimar is that high. That nerf really did him dirty.

>game comes out
>ENDLESS BITCHING ON Yea Forums ABOUT HOW TOP TIER BROKEN K ROOL IS
God fucking damn watching Yea Forums unwittingly show how complete garbage they are at EVERY SINGLE fighting game will never ever get old

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Tell me when a link makes top 8 at a big tournament

i hope joker gets nerfed to low tier

I would pay good money to get Samus a costume that wasn't the worst one she ever had holy fuck

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Define big tournament, strictly S rank? A Samus just recently made it to top 8 at switchfest

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I wish they would make costumes for existing characters instead of adding more shitty mii skins

>Rosa
Looking good

Samus' alts in this game are great, are you high?

Pokemon Trainer, Snake, and Joker are such fucking cancer.

Anyone here have any Sans tips?

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>tfw if Ultimate came out a few months later or if Samus Returns was released a few months earlier we could've had the design from that
look at those fucking shoulders
her dash attack would destroy

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Nobody good was at switch fest it was impressive t

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I gave up hoping for more alt costumes a long time ago
I'd kill for a Prime aesthetic alt

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Please no. We don't need a repeat of Bayo being useless.

don't humor him, he's incapable of nuance so he's just going to start bitching about how since it's from other m it's automatically bad

I could see dorf knowing some fucking good southwestesque recipes

>Anyone here have any Sans tips?
Would you happen to have a stool, some structurally sound rafters, and a sturdy length of rope?

Who do YOU main, bitch?

Did Ryu and Ken really break out of low tier that much?
I feel like I never see them around.

Not him but I do really like the Samus colors. That new tron-lights one is really nice looking
I still wish she had a real alt skin though

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people who complain about ROB """spamming""" are just shit at the game. Have they never heard or shielding before?

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Newest tier list is in.

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Thanks for the idea user, but I already built a swing last week at your mom's house.
She's a real swinger after all.

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Well she does, it's called Dark Samus.

Pacman, you underaged cuck. Suck my 12 inch wanker.

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light suit's my fav. yeah they're all pretty rockin

His projectile is pretty good

I'm not even complaining but have YOU ever played? If you shield the gyromite your punk ass is getting grabbed bitch

What a boring character. LMAO. You think you're so special just because you main a yellow sphere with shoes? I could kick your ass in a heartbeat.

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>shortest grab range in the game
>gyro does shit for damage against shields
rolling out of shield is a viable option. Also what does this have to do with spamming?

>Kome and Nicko both making top 8 in event these past couple weeks
>People are going to start learning the Shulk matchup

I'm going to miss the Halcyon days of "he just changes colors and I have no idea what's going on"

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>You think you're so special just because you main a yellow sphere with shoes?
Laugh while you can, faggot. Pacman brought friends.

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Set up an arena right now and fight it out you bitches.

More boring than melee? where it's just Falco getting camped by jigglypuff for every set?

>unironically playing competitive games online
I'm glad I'm not this retarded. I'll play the game how it was meant to be played, thank you.

>complain about projectile characters having projectiles
>complain about sword characters having good buttons
>complain about speedsters being safe on everything
>complain about heavies killing early
>my character fair your character OP
That's just how things are when the game is accessible. A lot more casual people who complain instead of learning matchups.

>coward talks tough and can't back up his words
As expected of a Pac-Man player.

Ever heard of shield stun? I don't know what's wrong with you bro but this is literally the most basic of plays for ROB or almost any character with a throwable projectile really
>throw projectile
>if the opponent shields, grab
>if the opponent rolls or spot dodges, dsmash out of dash
Then if you've conditioned them to jump you can snipe them out of the air with neutral B

Namecall all you want, I will not subject myself to Nintendo's half-assed online experience. This game was not meant to be played with stuttering and ridiculous input delays.

Yes.

Ivysaur and Squirtle are both high tier characters and Zard does what he needs to do.

>waaahh namecalling
Little bitch boy sure can dish it out but he can't take it when the heat is on him.

>and ridiculous input delays
lol the irony

I just said you could namecall. I was namecalling you too, remember?

What the fuck am I reading with all of this?

People dickmeasuring using a children's party game of all things

Are you talking about the inherent input delay? I can handle a couple of frames of delay. I can and will not sanction entire seconds of delay that occur while playing online, even with a wired connection.

ZOOMER ALERT
ZOOMER ALERT

No, you were namecalling someone else and I correctly guessed you were the Pac-Man player based on your sheer insolence.

Oh. Then you're a faggot as well.

>be mario main
>upthrow to dair to fair
ahh that's the stuff

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Smash version of "post your fightcade ID"

>I will not subject myself to Nintendo's half-assed online experience
fair enough

Is Snake really that good? Why do I never see him in top 8s?

No, thankfully I am not a Pac-Man player, but I understand your confusion.

>be doc main
>HERE COMES THE GIANT FIST
Feels bretty gud

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I was under the impression some people wanted him banned?

>character is new
>player is unfamiliar with new thing
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE OVERPOWERED
It happens every time, user.

all of the other top tiers pretty much rape him besides peach

How did Link and Ganondorf drop so low???

>a couple
try 7
>entire seconds of delay
you don't have "entire seconds" of delay if you and your opponent have non shit connections

>tfw your favorite characters are top tiers
If you don't see Snake in tournaments you don't watch tournaments, there was a period where we had 3 Snakes constantly in top 8.

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lel just hop into an arena with your frill and bug off

Is Doc's fair actually larger than Mario's?

>K. Rool worse than Little Mac
>worse than the fucking character that is dead once they leave the stage in any way
IT ISNT FAIR

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I was reading the wiki and he is banned from some tournament in South Australia because of the randomness of Down + B and its like...Why?

Post GSP bitches

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Mac's armor doesn't completely shit itself after clanking with a stronger hit

I don't think so. It just trades spiking for hitting like a fucking truck.

I guess that's it, but it's weird seeing him besides Joker and Peach

I mean lately, of course. This is the newest tier list and I don't see results

Poor poor Kirby.

I considered putting Sans' name in lowercase but my autism wouldn't allow me.

Take Leo out of the picture and joker drops to high tier

It's not because he's good it's because he's RNG the character which means someone could steal a match by getting lucky. I don't support the ban but I can see the argument.

There's also the fact the spells have different names in each country so if you're participating in an international tournament you're gonna have to memorize some words for no good reason

kek

Living Room is the true ROB stage

i thought puff was "ok"

>Pikachu is widely considered to be one of the best characters in the game
>Isn't stupidly hard to use and is insanely rewarding to invest time into as he can cover almost any matchup
>Is literally the face of the Pokemon franchise and one of the most recognizable mascots EVER

>Everyone decides to play Pokemon Trainer and Greninja instead

Why the fuck is this happening? When Pichu got kicked to the curb i expected a flood of Pikachu users, but that still hasn't happened. Now only 2 of the 8 Pokemon reps see good usage and Pikachu is not one of them. Are people retarded?

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>Lucina, Roy and Chrom all top tiers
>Ike in high tier
>Marth at the top of mid tier

>people still pretending these characters aren't braindead

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Get Good?

Guess its time to start learning what KLANG means in Spanish.

Ivy's High-Tier, Squirtle has good matchups against some of the troublesome matchups for Ivy, and Charizard's able to give them a little extra bulk without being absolute trash.

Are you stupid?

What about all the characters above and around them?

Link and Ganondorf have basically never had a Smash game where they're actually good.

>participate in japanese tourney
>NIGGA DEY ALL CHINESE

Even before Leo i told people Joker was Sheik, but actually good. Add to that a long-lasting buff to all your stats that make you hit like a mini Ganondorf but with the speed of Fox/Greninja and fantastic aerials and frame data. How anyone could look at that and not see BUSTED is way beyond me.

All of them are significantly more difficult to use except maybe Wolf. Luinca is literally the easiest character to use in this game. People kept swearing up and down Ike would fall out of viability as time went on but here he is nearly a year into the meta still stealing wins with nair spam.

Pac-Man would be higher on this list if he had some fucking speed and ko power

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pichu still top tier and prolly better than pikachu, its just people overdramatizing changes as is typical

It is a weird oversight that there's not some visual indicator for what the spells are, Shulk's Monado arts have colors for that exact reason. And don't give me that "It's not faithful to the game" for Hero because Shulk has nothing like that in his game.

My friend loves to use Mac and KRool and I hate them on casual play, I can't believe they're the lowest on the list. Mac's quick smashes and super armor are annoying as fuck, and off stage counters means you can't follow up that much if he's not under the stage. KRool is similar, the helicopter and belly blocks a lot of follow ups off stage, and I have to drastivally change my entire playstyle against these two, and only these two characters (spam block, grab, throw against mac, and just go for raw kills or killing off the top for krool)

hes the only 1 of the 3 dlc who actually didn't get balanced around their gimmick, sakurai must really like persona.

So Leffen was right about PT?
Will it eventually be the best character?

they got nerfed pretty hard recently, so no.

I never really saw the problem with them being easy to play. It's not like they're dominating tournaments lately outside of maybe Lucina, and I don't see what's wrong with easy characters being good, but I'm no competitive player myself.

>two fucking patches later and every other match online is still against a joker

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But it's true.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=0

ESAM is the only notable Pikachu and he overall doesn't get much play compared to how good he is.

>Ken high tier
Well, at least one of them is viable, I guess. Poor Ryu

Why do people keep saying this? At best, you had comments saying he was mid without Arsene and with Arsene, he was broken tier but everyone agreed that was still enough to put him in top tier because of how quick and easy it was to get Arsene out. Point is nobody was ever sleeping on Joker.

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Because 80% of Australian capitals are chinks and Japs and no one wants to learn the Mandarin for hero's spells

He IS that bad.

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>Isn't stupidly hard to use.

Pikachu not only has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game but also requires insane amounts of technical and mechanical skill to actually be good with. The problem is that the reward you get for being good with Pikachu is no better than the reward you'd get for being good with Joker, Pokemon Trainer, Lucina, or Squid Kid, but you're putting in a LOT more effort.

Most top players have already mentioned that Pikachu's the most technically demanding character, but the reward for it really isn't there.

>But mah Pichu
Before the nerf, the reward WAS there - Pre-Nerf Pichu kills FAR earlier than Pikachu, even if it dies earlier too. But that also meant games were shorter in general, so there was less strain on the player when playing Pichu. Pikachu games go on for a while he's a bugger to hit and doesn't die instantly when you do, but out of all the characters in top he has the most trouble killing.

Most top players won't touch Pikachu without some kind of devotion or pre-condition (No telling which ESAM has), because they can spend less effort in training to get another character who's got just as good matchups, and they spend less time in matches.

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rip.

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Ryu just needs better combo routes and probably some more fireball buffs, maybe a shoryu buff so he can be competitive with Ken on kill confirms.

Guess you better learn Chinese!

Just give Ryu his Sm4sh nair back

Based, Pikachu is actually a very rare character, especially compared to that of the swordies, Snake, PT and spacies. The only other top tiers as rare as Pikachu are ZSS and Inkling.

link is dead

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She just doesn't function properly in ult. She can barely kill until 200%, and many of her multi hits are easy to fall out of.

He's saying he's retarded because "Pikachu is easy to use". Pikachu requires more training than near every other character in the game to get consistently good with to the point you can win Regionals, thanks to QAC and self-destructs - but top players could spend half the time training and get just as good with a character that's just as good. Pikachu's a waste of training unless you've already gotten his movements ingrained in your muscle memory.

It's not fair.

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>tfw you main low tier

Lol you could say the same for samsora and peach or cosmos and inkling hell even snake has dropped off some since ally was banned. All of these characters are top 10 for reasons other than Win rate. Although i think snake and Pokemon trainer should be higher and peach and daisy should be lower.

>Pre-Buff Corrin gets placed at high mid tier.
>Post buff Corrin gets placed at low low tier.

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Deedee shouldn't be that low

Can you handle the truth?

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Yup. Pikachu really takes a certain kind of person to want to main for all the work that has to be put in to getting good with him. Since he doesn't offer any massive advantages over getting good with someone like Joker or Peach, I can't see why people who want to win tournaments would risk training with Pikachu.

Your spells do have little icons next to them in DQ. At least in 11.

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Put Palutena in brain dead.
>spams up aerial

>joker
>not braindead

HAR FUCKING HAR

I would absolutely swap Squinkling and Olimar, but otherwise that's about right.

Pikachu being "hard" to use is Pikachu main propaganda. The more likely explanation is that most people playing pika are really just shitters getting carried and no good player actually likes Pikachu. And no i don't consider having a semi complex recovery "hard to use" go ahead and name some high execution Pikachu tech. And if you are going to say drag down nair or fair chains don't bother replying.

Peach shouldn't be anywhere near the level of Pikachu. Peach is about as difficult t pick up as Joker.

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>run away then side b and up smash man
>technical

How are Joker and Palutena not in braindead tier?

Its because the 2 Snake mains that consistently made top 8 got outed as a pedophile and got bored of the game respectively

I really don't know why people are sleeping on the shotos. All the better for me though, hope it carries onto Terry but he might get more attention since he's a DLC character

Pac mains are so up themselves though, along with Luigi players. They do their gay little dash dance after every tiny interaction or combo, it's sad.

>ZSS and Inkling.

I know it might seem irrelevant, but even though Inkling is not widely used in America, she's insanely popular in Yurop. Pic related

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>it's a Luigi goes for the vacuum combo episode

>tfw I main Mac and Incineroar, but also play K Rool and Kirby

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>Ultimate
>technical
No, user.

I've been learning Peach and while I agree she's not too hard to pick up and play, she's got a lot of depth.
This is really interesting, I haven't heard of any European Inkling players making waves though, I wonder why that might be? Is Inkling just a character that gets a lot of usage but zero results?

>Zero and M2K saying Pikachu is the most technical character in the game
>Pikachu main propaganda

I mean come on now

As someone who plays both lucina and peach. Peach honestly ain't too crazy to learn if you want to do good with her, her big problem is setting up kills. Lucina is easy in terms of actual game knowledge, but you actually have to have amazing spacing and reaction times to beat none shitters, and you have no gimmick to fall back on. Honestly say she's harder to play than wolf, pautena or inkling, but the reward is better for mastery

he said QAC right in his post but I guess you don't know what that is

It's because they're janky and difficult to play in a game where you can pick someone far easier and more normalized and get just as good of results.
Don't let it bother you, that just means when shoto players like us run into each other, we have an ingrained camaraderie.
I do wonder how they're going to handle Terry though. I figured Ryu and Ken would be the designated "plays like a fighting game" characters and they wouldn't add any more like that, but it also makes sense that they could add more since the precedent has been set.

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Zero doesn't play the game seriously at all and m2k has garbage placements for his experience level. All zero does is make clickbait anyhow so i don't exactly trust his opinions

You call THIS boring?!?
youtube.com/watch?v=fw-7Scm9hU8

in what universe is Inkling technical? Spamming aerials and fishing for roller kills is not a technical game plan.
also, Fox...? He's literally just landing nair, the character.

>Honestly say she's harder to play than wolf, pautena or inkling
Fucking lmao, Lucina has so many good matchups and so few BAD matchups that if you're struggling with anyone it's simply due to your own shortcomings as a player. Lucina can play just about any role she wants, she doesn't need a gimmick since she has virtually no downsides unless you want to pretend like you're gimped for not having a projectile.

Then that makes it all the weirder. Since this game is going to get many patches I hope they fix it eventually since it's not like they're making new modes but I have a bad feeling that they won't.

Qac isn't viable in ultimate so why talk about it.

>Greninja makes the Top 10 in both continents

FUCK YEAH! It's nice to see my boy getting all this love

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>you actually have to have amazing spacing
I'm calling bullshit because almost every top placing player in ultimate has said something along he lines of everything is too safe and Lucina is safer than most.

thanks for posting this user that was fucking amazing to watch
I had no idea fruits + water was so jank

R.O.B. being in the top 10 feels weird to me. I thought nobody except me and some other R.O.B. enthusiasts were the only ones that liked him. Very cool though.

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To the people who don't like the sword characters, mainly the FEs, how would you change them to be fair and not braindead without just making them trash or removing them from the game?
People don't seem to complain about the Links or Shulk and Cloud nearly as much.

Most of lucina's supposedly "good" matchups are just even. People just don't know how to fight swordies so assume its an advantage. She has losing matchups against three of the top.tiers pt, snake and inkling and i suspect joker as well, but haven't studied the matchup enough. She has.a terrible disadvantage state, and predictable.kill options, that top players can scout out. When i play lucina against actual good players at locals and not quickplay bs. All my kills are from solid.edgeguarding of maybe a hard read shieldbreaker. Like i said she's not a hard character by any means, but she's definitely harder to win with then wolf or.palutena who have easy gimmicks to fall.back.on

>Mac and Incineroar
Pretty chill cookout with my bros

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>People just don't know how to fight swordies so assume its an advantage.

Said by someone who's never made a regionals. Yeah, top tier advice my man.

Probably because they aren't as strong as the FE ones. I guarantee you 90% of the FE hate is because so many of them happen to be some of the strongest characters in the game.

You know what Link and Shulk have that the FE swordies don't? Shulk is the posterboy of bad framedata, that's literally it: Too much reach and above average framedata.

This. Why are all the interesting characters dogshit?

I've never heard anyone say that in regards to specifically lucina. Lucina has safe aerials but so does literally every top tier and high tier, when i refer to spacing I'm talking about the stuff required to maximize the punishes or set up for edgeguaeds, not the braindead fair and nair that every character has

Inverse is even better

These lists are fucking stupid. Imagine thinking you can tier characters that literally nobody plays.
Usage rates are not indicative of viability.

>attempt to shield against safe as fuck nair spam
>gets grabbed into downthrow upsmash

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Yeah but Wolf needs to see Fox is worthy.

>Usage rates are not indicative of viability.
That's correct. That's why they base it on win rates.

Though Pikachu should really just be in it's own "ESAM" tier, because literally no one else ever plays it.

as a little mac main
i'm struggling.

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Belmonts fell off so hard. Everyone was saying they were high tier on release too.

Little Mac is great on FD, just play him every time you get to pick the stage.

Don't the small links have decent frame data?

>Having difficulty against Nair spam
I didn't know literal buckets of shit could post on Yea Forums.

No one on the planet has issues with Nair spam against ANY character - Every single Nair is unsafe on spam. The reason Rob's gotten pretty damn good is because his Gyro is fucking AMAZING, and can be used to good effect off a Nair (not spamming).

Some endlag or startup to some of their attacks. Roy's Side B is frame 7 but kills people earlier than Limit Cross Slash. Every one of Marth/Lucina/Roy/Chrom's landing aerials is completely safe, Ike gets away with so much because he has no landing lag which is the entire reason he can spam nair so hard. If they're going to keep their insane frame data, at the very least make it so they have difficulty killing. Chrom can spike people at 0% for trying to edegeguard him and can kill people at the ledge at 70% with just an ftilt or back air (both of which come out before frame 10).

The general rule for this game is if you have above average reach, you have slower moves to compensate for this, and it holds true for nearly every character in the game EXCEPT the Marths, who are only vulnerable if they're doing a rising aerial and really no other time. You have to have near perfect reaction to properly whiff punish them which is especially hard if you're someone like Mario who's entire kit is outranged by a sword.

tl;dr they don't have proper downsides for all of their upsides, this is why they're shitter magnets, anyone can pick them up and do well because they're so effortlessly better than a huge number of the cast.

I know, but when i'm against a meta knight or a projectile spammer, it's kinda hard to fight, especially when it's an aerial fighter.
but on the ground, i'm alright.

While win rates are better at representing who has the most ones, it's still just a popularity contest. People want to play what wins, and very rarely will people want to stray from that. Which then cycles back to low usage, which then skews data again.
The fact that current tierlist are so radically different than when the game first came out shows how much evolution and how much characters getting exposure can boost their tier.

Happy you enjoyed

There's so many whacky things you can do with hydrant + fruit combo and there's a surprising amountof consistency on what you throw/drop at the water and at what time and angle you hit it. But heck if I can pull it off consistently

Yeah this is kinda sad to see. People waited so long for K Rool and Ridley but they're both shit

Y.Link has great frame data for non-special moves.
T.Link has OK frame data.

Wow, my main is low tier again and... would you look at that, I still destroy all the topfags online. Tiers are for fucking queers, hahaha.

Ridley's alright. Rool sadly isn't

makes absolutely no sense to me

YL has great frame data but very short range, an exploitable recovery and has a lot of difficulty taking stocks.
Not sure about TL since he's mostly played in Japan.

K rool is not worse than little Mac, I can guarantee you that much.
People just don't want to play k rool. People rode the initial hype train, and some called him top tier (Lol).

>The fact that current tierlist are so radically different than when the game first came out shows how much evolution and how much characters getting exposure can boost their tier.
Yes. Congratulations on figuring out how Tier Lists work and change over time.

That's what a tierlist is - people get the data they can, rank the characters as best as they can. When more data becomes available, they re-rank them. Welcome to every fighting game. Ever.

>Forever Mediocre
Maining Pit is suffering

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I do pretty well at locals, but have never been to or tried to attend a regionals. My opinion is based solely off my knowledge of the character, things I've noticed in people.i play with, and videos of pro players.when people are losing to lucina 9/10 they are getting beat because they are not using their kit effectively and getting read. The easiest thing about lucina is her straightforward punish game, and how hard she can punish off edgeguards. But to actually edgeguard decent players is hard work i play other characters as well, and wolf and joker are just as easy to play, and I get the same results with not even half the time. If you seriously, think you're only losing against lucina because the character is braindead, reevaluate the fundamentals and accept that you're probably not using your character as efficiently as you think. Also desu aside from a few characters there is no hard to play character in ultimate. As mentioned earlier most characters have some safe move or gimmick that can. Be spammed. And most bread and butter combos can. Be learned in a day or less, at higher levels its all.consistency and mentality.

You're not understanding. These lists are meaningless, especially in such a short time period. People need to stop scrambling to find out who is better than who and instead focus on learning characters, figuring out what they do, etc.
But that won't happen because people are fucking obsessed with only using the characters that take zero effort.

>Anything and everything is viable if you are good enough with em
If two players of equal skill play against one another, the one with the better character is going to win.
How arrogant and deluded do you have to be to think that you will always have such a significant skill advantage over your opponent that your character choice doesn't matter?

I imagine since they don't dominate every tournament or plague top 8 they're not the best in the game, just really easy for how effective they are.
Nerfing their frame data would keep them more honest but also obviously drop their power. Is there a way to adjust for it while keeping them fair?

Pure autism: the post.

>heavies are shit
surprising absolutely no one

Karen ain't wrong

t. Raito and Maister

>people unironically wanted hero banned

kill yourselves

If giving them some actual endlag to their huge aerials somehow is too much then at the very least don't give them massive knockback growth on their attacks so they have to work harder for their kills to compensate for either out ranging or out speeding just about everyone in the game,

>Bowser, snake, wario, megaman

>implying people are not playing the game because someone made a tier list
ok champ
how about YOU get some of these bottom tier characters to evo, until then you can keep your opinions on what the pros should do to yourself

>both mains are top tier
Frankly I don't know how ZSS possibly can rank that high with essentially one good launch attack.

I mean it's a trend in fighting games in general. Whenever a heavy is announced in any fighting game I'm pleasantly surprised if he turns out to not be shit, but I'm not pleasantly surprised often

Honestly I'm glad I picked Falcon as my main, the fundamentals his moveset taught me has carried over into the other characters I play and has made me a significantly better all around player for it.

Using pros as an example is literally the exact opposite of what I said. Literally every single pro dropped Pichu after the nerfs. Why? Because they have to exert extra effort now? Pichu is suddenly so much worse off that NOBODY plays it anymore? Pros don't give a shit about discovering and learning. They want what's broken and good and to use nothing else.

>all the faggots seething about hero
>mfw he's just mid tier

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Can you fucking IMAGINE having that opinion in a physical sport?

>Baseball Draft
>Should we draft Player A, who's hitting average was amazing last year, or Player B, who's runs have been solid during the off season, or
>WHY WOULD YOU EVEN TRY TO BE RANKING THEM IT'S SO EARLY IN PLAYER B'S CAREER THESE STATISTICS ARE USELESS YOU NEED TO STOP SCRAMBLING TO FIND OUT WHO IS BETTER AND JUST LEARN HOW THEY PLAY AND WHAT THEY'RE GOOD AT. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU ARE SO OBSESSED WITH WINNING WITH PLAYERS WHO TAKE ZERO EFFORT

Who's the best character for dealing with projectile flowcharters? I'm getting real tired of chasing down people trying to run away for the entire match, especially when they have like 3 times my move speed.

Well nothing against your point but there is money on the line

>Literally every single pro dropped Pichu after the nerfs. Why? Because they have to exert extra effort now? Pichu is suddenly so much worse off that NOBODY plays it anymore?

Did... did you seriously, UNIRONICALLY just type that? Like, was that a serious post you just made?

Why do people who are shit at this game act like tiers matter to them?`
Just because you pick a top tier doesn't magically increase your skill.

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So who "discovered and learned" Pichu in the first place retard? Was it the very same pros that dropped him maybe? Maybe they know a few more things about the character than you do since they've likely sunk over a thousand hours on him? What a guy, imagine having your head this far up your own ass

Bet I could still kick your ass with him kid.

>Physical sports have a magical god hand that changes players internal workings.
Retarded analogy by a retarded poster, go figure.

>They want what's broken and good and to use nothing else.
Yeah. They get paid to win. Why would they actively choose to hamper themselves out of a win and not get money?

>Pros don't give a shit about discovering and learning.
Which is why it's mostly pros that learn new techniques with characters, right? Holy fuck could you not be more wrong. Pros are the first people who care about discovering and learning new techniques, since it gives them advantages over other players by mastering those techniques first.

If they’re faster than you then maybe pick someone faster than them so that you can always catch them. Take aerial drift into account too because yoshi is so good at dealing with projectiles because of his absurdly high aerial speed. Personally I play sheik because needles can disrupt charges and she has super good movement. The lack of kill power and damage output honestly isn’t as big a deal as people say it is.

bowserjr is my favorite character. well iggy specifically

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I'm just pointing out the faggots that screech like he's the worst thing to ever enter Smash
Ironically some of this coming from Joker mains

just press R nigga

Very ironic isnt it

Honestly? Pikachu and Pichu. They're both light enough that they can usually DI out of the flow-chart more than other's can, and with Quick Attack they can close the gap immediately and pop up the opponent.

If you're not wanting to deal with learning Pikachu though, either Ness, Fox, or Palutena, who all nullify the projectiles.

Joker. Down B all that shit and wipe the floor with them with free Arsenes

Here’s multiple ways to buff samus

>Buff missile startup or endlag
>Give missiles an explosion hitbox so people can’t swat them out of the air for free
>Dtilt buff, either make it a strong kill move at like 130-140, remove lots of lag to make it a combo starter, OR buff ftilt to frame 6 so I don’t have to stale out dtilt all the time as my fastest option
>Upair landing lag buff so she can land better
>Nair rework, make it her old sex kick, but just as strong as it is now, with the strong hit sending forward and the late hit being the same angle as her new nair2. Frame 6 or 7 similar to wolf
>Full CS has full shield damage again to give us a reason to use full cs
>Zair fix
>Dash attack reverted to smash 4, or, double down on the shinespark inspiration and make it hit even harder on startup, or just move the sweetspot to the beginning
>MORPH BALL CRAWL
>Jab lol
>Dsmash buff to knockback
>Multihit fixes in general, screw attack, fair, upair, zair, etc
>Arm cannon intangibility
>Less time spent in morph ball when bouncing from a bomb explosion of you’re grounded beforehand

>Squidkids still top tier

Nice

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>>Dash attack reverted to smash 4
literally all she needs

Pikachu (QA)
Joker (Gun/Rebellion)
Yoshi (DJ Armor)
Ness (Magnet)
Wario (Bike Armor)
PKMN Trainer (Pokemon Switch)
Banjo (Wonder Wing)

6/10 player with a top tier is now a 7/10 player. Worth it

Samus is high tier. You're just using the wrong one.

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Source?

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imagine caring about tier lists in some children's party game, no wonder you still haven't had sex and don't have a gf

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Why does Snake always rank top? Hardly ever see him online or in competitive and I suck ass at him and want to be good but CANT

Life is krool.

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The both of you completely missed his point about leveraging the characters actual tier score with win data. It creates a self-fulfilling prophecy where people will pick that character based off of this information alone, meaning other characters will be picked less thus lowering their chances of winning and therefore dropping in the tier ranking even though they are mechanically sound. It also doesn't take into account the skill level of the person that actually won with the character in the first place.

>people still sleeping on mii swordfighter
>below fucking brawler

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I really just want DK to be like high tier in one game.

Requires too high IQ to play for 4gloryholers.

all miis are trash, dawg

FUCK TIER LISTS
FUCK TIER WHORES
FUCK LEFFEN
FUCK ZERO
FUCK SUPER MACHO MAN
AND FUCK TIER FAGS

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DK is fucking braindead and annoying to fight against. His roll, especially, should be nerfed. The hitbox lasts too long.

>tornado handing out free kos
>bad

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more like 1/10 player is now a 1.1/10 player. Great, I can still kick your shit with K. Rool or any other low tier fag, because I actually know how to play, you joyless autist.

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What's the point of mac? Why is his recovery shit in a game about jumping?

r8 my K Rool fix

>undo all the nerfs he got
>nair comes out faster
>Kremling Krown always comes back to him and no catch animation
>d-tilt grounding hitbox extended

Would this get him into Low Tier?

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Which is entirely why every other Tier list for every other fighting game in completely null and void, right? Since they're all made the exact same way.

How is Smash a game about jumping?

It would be nice. She desperately needs a better zonebreaking tool than her current DA considering Duck Hunt and olimar wall her out like nobody’s business

Mac is fundamentally broken with or without tierfags

stinky day

we just need side b back thats really it. Sure yeah his recovery will still suck regardless but getting side b back will dramatically help Mac

Bruh I hate DK even though I play samus but you gotta hold that L, DK is pretty bad. Dash attack is one of the only tools he has, let him keep it

Some horizontal input on his up b would also be pretty helpful

It’s literally a platform fighter, a game where aerials make or break a character. Ultimate also doesn’t have the engine necessary for a ground fighter like Mac to thrive. If this was Melee he might be pretty decent but get absolutely annihilated by Peach and Puff similar to Icies since they have to stay grounded a lot too

How the fuck is Pokemon Trainer top tier?

I said literally none of that.

>how is a character that has three complete sets of tools to work with top tier

Hmm I wonder

Every time I fight against a DK as ZSS, Palu, Hero, or Bayo, I get my ass handed to me. He's so annoying.

>Hero in there at all
How do they know what tier he'd be in if they've already banned him from any and all tournaments because "I'm so amazing at Smash but I can't adapt to this character boo hoo!"?

Why was he so low in Brawl, then?

Ivysaur

And it's also pretty helpful to be able to quickly change to a heavy with good kill options

I'm gonna be honest user. I dont even play smash. Not really interested in it. Other more interesting fighting games out there in my opinion. I'm just in this thread because seeing people find out their mains are shit is kinda funny. I was just commenting on why somebody would follow tier lists. They won't make shit players amazing but they do make a slight difference and at the highest levels of play, those slight differences matter. Tier lists are for pros who compete in tournaments and casuals. Everyone in between can pretty much disregard Tier lists

Because that was an entirely different game and PT's tools were worse? Damn you're stupid.

What happened to DK? I remember a lot of people saying he was pretty solid this time around with his power, range, and disjoints.

Wait, so is Jigglypuff good in this game again? Because she has the best air game of any fighter.

What happened in Ultimate that made him so amazing? All the Pokemon have the exact same moves, the only difference is no stamina gimmick.

I mean just look at how often high level players spam jump. I rarely see a fighting game with more jump spam than smash

Pt had the weakness of super effective moves on them and also Pokémon got tired and weaker the longer they were out. Brawls also a very different game and has a completely different neutral and ways to punish.

Stamina, on par with tripping for the worst mechanic introduced in that game (and luckily removed).

Makes your Pokemon quite literally tire and get weaker in damage output

Seems kind of unfair to have a character that's three different characters at the same time though, of course it's OP. Why wouldn't they just split them into individual fighters?

Isn't Squirtle really light and unable to kill anyone, Ivysaur easily gimpable, and Charizard's attacks are really slow?

That's a big difference. Also the moves might be the "same" but they don't have the same hitboxes or frame data as before.

>All the Pokemon have the exact same moves,

I hate you. I hate you so much.

Nigga usage and win rate are literally what determines tiers. Or are you a fucking zoomer that goes on about "muh potential"?

Squirtle can combo like no tomorrow, no one gimp's Ivysaur because he gets swapped to Charizard when you try, and don't use Charizard.

So you only use Squirtle and that makes him top tier?

>Ridley's still in low even with the buffs
Jesus christ, give him something man. Hell, not even just him, Zelda and Ganondorf sorely need buffs too.

What's up with Bowser being so high?

Turns out while he’s still deceptively quick his disadvantage is still garbage like the majority of heavies and people are really starting to abuse it. Plus a lot of his moves are negative on hit for some reason which is honestly sad. Also, aerial spinning Kong is a travesty of a move
Jiggs surprisingly doesn’t have the best air game, the thing about smash is that you don’t want to be in the air ALL the time, otherwise people will eventually reach you. Jiggs in melee had even more mobility due to rising pound and better acceleration in the air. Plus her bair in melee was just.. not ok

In general, her strengths don’t outweigh her crippling weaknesses in this game. She can’t camp super effectively, her damage output is meager, she doesn’t have a good grab at all, and she barely functions on the ground unlike in melee where a crouch cancel rest or upthrow rest could kill at 10%

I’d say the character with a better air game is Yoshi and even then he falls into a similar trap as jiggs as he has so little range

why does Yea Forums suddenly act like tier list matters to them, when it has been proven time and time again that the average Yea Forums poster is a casual shitter who's bad at video games. go ahead, pick your top tier, and get your boipussy stretched regardless.

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No, you use Squirtle 9% of the time to get a few easy combos in, you use Ivysaur for 90% of the match to actually play, and you use PKMN Switch for Charizard to either recover or hard punish.

I just want Samus to have a combo game again. Melee Samus was the best version of Samus because of how much she can do, Ultimate Samus is only good at punishing ledge options with charge shot and floating around. It sucks, and I unironically prefer Smash 4 Samus to this.

The least they could have done was make Dark Samus more of a brawler while regular Samus could have continued to rely on projectile spam/grabbing.

You’re actually retarded if you think they’re the same. Just because moves look similar doesn’t mean they behave the same. Pt lost damn near every matchup in brawl. You’ve gotta put into account what kind of game brawl was. The tippy top tiers were so unbelievably broken that it was insane.
In brawl the characters weren’t good at all so it made sense to be given three characters. It’s also not that op since each character still has weaknesses in ult. Characters def super good in ultimate due to it though. Smash has become a game where everyone needs a gimmick. The least gimmicky character that has recently been made is probably Ridley or incineroar, and they’re wayyy more gimmicky than characters from smash 64 and melee.

Big boys will never be truly good aside from maybe Bowser, will they?

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Hope he gets cut next game, hes not even vidya

There's still certain advantages and disadvantages to each Pokemon as you long as you know how to deal with them once their out. And it's not as if the Pokemon change is as instantaneous as something like MvC's player swap. You still have time to adjust to the next one as they come out in a linear fashion.

I'd say more over to just buff everyone else to match the high tiers. That way the whole cast is much more fun to play

Bowser is the best heavy they’ve ever designed because they both lean hard into giving him all the strengths of a heavy but try hard to get rid of every downsides they typically have, the only true one being his large combo-able size.

Very fast, one of the best initial dashes in the game, hits like a train, has decent combo trees, fair is one of the best in the game, he can somewhat land with the massive dair hitbox, up b oos and side b oos make him dangerous to attack for free, and his up b isn’t total ass like DK or Ganon’s

>herp a durp

>tfw Kirby main
At this point I've accepted the fact that we'll spend the rest of our lives atoning for Smash 64 and will never leave bottom tier.

Don't forget Tough Guy making rapid jab attacks worthless.

>online

anyway caring about tiers outside of tournament context is retarded

Ivysaur is on the low end of high-tier alone with his frame data and range giving him a fantastic neutral game, and his amazing aerial kill moves.

Squirtle covers a few matchups that Ivysaur has trouble with (Rob, Mewtwo, Wario, etc.) and can just go to fucking town on heavies (who Ivysaur doesn't have a problem with, but Squirtle brings them to KO faster). This brings PKMN Trainer to the low-end of Top-Tier.

Charizard fixes Ivysaur's recovery and is much less gimpable, which brings him up to about Mid-Top. If Charizard had a regular use outside of that, PKMN would probably be the best in the game.

What's the problem? just looks like SAMUS to me

Most of their moves function differently than they did in brawl for starters, inevitably buffing them by giving them much better tools. Squirtle was the only really worthwhile pick in brawl due to his great mobility but you couldn’t only play Squirtle.

Ivysaur’s massive hitboxes are now worth a damn because they don’t just hit people to hit people, now they all have a reason to exist. Ivy dair and upair are so good now because they lead into things, have less lag than in brawl, and are ALSO massive on top of it

What could they do to make the other super=-heavies good without breaking them?

play more fighting games

the places that tend to have them shit are usually crossover games, especially those that don't "adapt" (compare Sentinel to Haggar).

>his

It is bad, though, and changing its colors to say "Hurr we have the other suits!" is retarded and anyone who defends it is retarded too. Why can't her alt skins be the actual suits, when so many other characters have skins that drastically change how they look?

Meanwhile Hero became rare after like one week. I've seen more Banjo in Elite Smash than Hero.

For DK, I think they could stand to give him a decent get-off-me or panic move to help his disadvantage state, then give him a real recovery that doesn't get guarded or spiked for free.

>Stopped maining Palutena to main Joker instead

Glad I made that change. Palutena is far too restrictive.

Super Armor.

Give DK Super-Armor on Tilts.
Give Ganon Super-Armor on (all) Specials.
Give K.Rool Super-Armor on Projectiles.
Give DDD Super-Armor on Smashes.

Bowser already has Little Armor for everything.

why is lucario shit in this game?
didn't they buffed her so you don't had to rely on Aura-shit?

>if they've already banned him from any and all tournaments
Just write "I don't know what I'm talking about" next time and save yourself some time

Please give me any one of these. Or several.

I'm forever salty that they took out her Dark Samus alt from 4. That shit was slick as fuck.

Jesus, I tried playing Bowser the other day and I just didn't know how Io play him I guess, because I thought he was ass. Maybe I'll give him another go. But I doubt I'll ever find him as fun to play as my boy Ridley.

I thought K. Rool had tons of super armor already.

BAN HERO

>mii gunner sucks
Still not gonna stop using her for the meme skelly

Don't forget his tough guy armor which makes rapid jab and most projectiles a joke.

What tournaments has he been in?

>I'm forever salty that they took out her Dark Samus alt from 4. That shit was slick as fuck.
I would say that having the actual Dark Samus with its awesome animations makes up for it.

Lucina can literally just throw hitboxes randomly and kill you after getting 12 or so hits. She's as braindead as everyone argued Cloud was in smash 4

>Gaymen watch from Low to Mid
When did he get gud?

>hiss

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K.Rool has Belly Armor.

You either mained her or never played against good Bayo players in 4 then. There's a very good reason she was nerfed into oblivion.

>Tough Guy
Doesn't that stop working when he's above 50% or something?

>nerfed into oblivion
Couldn't she have been nerfed to in line with everyone else instead of listening to the fart-screaming babies?

For Ridley, give him something like Tough Guy.

Buff his weight, and his air speed

Give him Super Armor on something. Idk what, maybe side-B (although I do think that people would find that OP). Buff his frame data too. His best OoS option is nair which starts at frame 11. Like come on man.

Sometimes I want to play as regular Samus with that alt man. Especially considering the gameplay differences between the two, however minor.

imagine taking smash seriously enough to be a tier whore, as an adult male
your parents must be real proud of you

It's better than nothing, and 50% worth of armor, especially in the early game, is a nice bonus to have.

>Robin is still complete garbage

Im never playing this damn game again

It's really easy to get someone to 50%, though.

Maister got like 5th at Evo with him

He didn't really, people just realized that he actually has a decent matchup against Joker and Palutena, and a few other mids and highs..

If we ever do a matchup spread for characters in this game, G&W will have the weirdest one.

When you get combos and confirms off of small moves or projectiles, yes.

Bowser's immune to a lot of combo starters in the first 50%, which helps a LOT.

Annoying =/= Good

I can't beat Sonics for the life of me because Homing and Spin Dash are obnoxious as all hell, but I would say Sonic is all that good.

Wasn't Mewtwo high on the list at one point, or am I thinking of 4?

She basically needs a complete rework. With the way her moveset is now, there's no way to buff her well without making her broken again.

I fucking hate elite smash. The lack of character variety makes me want to rip my fucking hair out.

It's always Samus, Hero, Joker, Lucina and Link(s). They almost always have fucking awful connection, and refuse to do anything remotely interesting.
>"Go play in arenas then"
People still play as lame as they possibly can despite the fact that they have nothing to gain, and arena hosts are huge faggots who tend to kick people who beat them.
Will online ever get better, bros?

High in 4. His tail FUCKS him up in this game - He has the biggest hurtbox outside of Bowser.

That's casual play, those characters suck ass when people can shfflsparkwaggadingdong around the stage and 0-die you in five seconds flat.

>all my characters are in low tier
FML

I still maintain that Ridley's kit is actually REALLY good and all he needs is a bit of a rework with his up-B, made heavier, faster in the air, and super armor on a move or two. Even then, I feel like people underestimate his up-B and his recovery in general. He doesn't feel inherently fucked like Ganondorf, sadly.

Didn't they shrink its hurtbox recently?

Why aren't you playing 1v1 tournies? They're way more chill and there's a ton of character variety.

>Why do people play to win, I just want to have fun

There is literally an ENTIRE MODE made for you. Why the fuck are you playing the one you hate?

>Awful connection
Yeah, that's a fair complaint. Maybe in a decade or two Nintendo will actually make competent online.

I’m quite happy with the current state of balance for Ultimate. There are a lot of high skill characters in top tier like Pokémon Trainer, Peach and Snake. Most of the brain dead auto pilot characters are in lower tiers (with some exceptions). Almost everyone in the cast is viable and tournaments see a very large variety of characters, which is fun as a viewer.

They did, but it was barely shrunk at all outside of the Z-Axis, which doesn't matter for nearly everyone.

twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1156499814315483136

I agree, I think his moveset has potential and he just needs tweaks to some of his properties to be solid.
Unfortunately, I have a feeling Ridley will be one of those characters that's just not popular enough to get much love in the patches beyond a few bits here and there.

Banjo fits in "would stab without warning" category more considering the antics they pull in their games

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but luigi and peach have RNG extra crazy damage attacks too and they arent being cried about

Probably not. Bowser is the sole exception for the thick boys. I guess kinda snake in brawl? Whatever

Ridley needs more mobility in the air and a better less gimmicky recovery, and hopefully weight so he can actually survive with his massive size

K rool needs much more kill power and an armor redesign so he can actually tank hits without worrying about the actual percents

Incin needs much stronger knockback growth so he doesn’t have to rely on revenge and make his side b a method to pass by projectiles similar to traditional grapplers

D3... is odd, I’m not sure what he could use. Maybe 75% gordo stick? Cause I know 100% may be too strong. Maybe give him his old brawl bair back so he has a better aerial poking tool

DK needs a better OOS option, just make up b a knockoff bowser up b and go further both horizontally and vertically so he can survive

Ganon is... divisive. Imo they should actually tone his knockback and damage output down slightly and just give him more mobility to compensate

Zard needs fair to autocancel like in 4, but he’s part of the trio so rock smash isn’t a good option, maybe let him tech side b on shield when he drops down?

That’s all the thick gents

Banjo fits in "Would Never Stab Anyone"

It's Kazooie that needs to be moved from "I won't hesitate bitch" to "Would stab as a warning".

>Pokemon Trainer
>high skill

Nah. I agree with the rest of what you said though.

You forgot Piranha Plant.

>Snake
I still don't see why he's considered such a skill-based character. I've been impressed by something a Snake has done maybe three times or so.

>Most of the brain dead auto pilot characters are in lower tiers (with some exceptions)
Fucking swordsmen, with Shulk as the one exception.

>Almost everyone in the cast is viable
Eh, you really don't see many K. Rools, Little Macs, or Piranha Plants anymore, which kinda sucks.

>and tournaments see a very large variety of characters, which is fun as a viewer.
Yeah but it's only going to get worse as time goes on and the meta gets more and more figured out. Unless the balance team really does a good job at fixing this shit, probably just a fraction of the roster is going to be seen in tournament play, but that won't be for years.

>hero uses magic burst
>walk straight through
>side tilt
>hero knocked off stage with no mp

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>Unfortunately, I have a feeling Ridley will be one of those characters that's just not popular enough to get much love in the patches beyond a few bits here and there.
Sadly, you're probably right. That patch a couple of patches ago really did him a lot of justice but they'd probably rather focus on anime swordsmen sadly.

I don't care if he's mid-low tier, he's fun to play as. And there's just something satisfying about his nair, a.k.a. high priority bara tiddies.

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>Olimar is still top
i thought ESAM said he'll be mid now

What do you mean suddenly? This is how it's always been.

My problem isn't that they play to win, my problem is that I keep getting the same three fucking characters that always do the exact same fucking things. It's boring, and I don't think anyone here disagrees with me on that.

What are the gameplay differences between the two?

I fucking love pikachu and watching ESAM play, but holy fuck are esam's opinions batshit insane.

>>walk straight through
Can Bowser actually do this with magic burst?

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Plant is kind of different in that he’s smaller than the rest. I’m not sure what to buff about plant considering Brood is already working well with him and utilizing a majority of his tools effectively. Perhaps buffing his aerials like making his upair last a single frame longer so that he can scoop people on the ground with it, his down air spikes on the whole pot, his fair hits harder, and all of them just have less landing lag. His specials are already quite strong

Also a character that could fit into the large frame archetype, Mewtwo. Even if he’s hilariously light, he’s big, and he needs some help. His combo potential is strong but his glass cannon aspects are not nearly as strong as they should be to compensate for his massive frame but light as shit weight

Buff his dtilt back to smash 4 for a brain dead combo starter, maybe make partial charge shadow ball do more hitstun similar to samus Charge Shot so he can combo off of it more easily, and for the love of god just remove like half the hitbox on his tail already or change the animations so it doesn’t literally stick out like a sore thumb

Some of Dark Samus' attacks hit slightly lower, some of Samus' hit slightly higher. I think it's charge shot, side-b, and up-smash that differ between the two but there could be more.

>K. Rool worst fighter ever.
Hell man. He was my favorite.
I feel sad.
Joker was a mistake.
How do I even compete against him?

You know the whole "Those who can't do, teach" thing?

ESAM is the opposite of that.

Oh I wholeheartedly agree with that. Luckily there has been a bit more variety with Ultimate finals.

I just hope one day the majority of cast is buffed to the point that there is very little disparity in tiers

Imagine trying to inflate your ego by talking down to people discussing video games on a video game message board.

What the fuck, did they nerf ganondorf or something? I usually see him ranked as king of mid tier.

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>Mewtwo

Everyone always says the best thing they could do for Mewtwo would be to remove the Tail's hurtbox.

I think a better way to work with him is to make his tail a permanent hitbox, so that if you're passively touching it you get hit, like Ness's Yo-Yo or Corrin's Charged smashes, except with no disjoint.

Samus and Damus animations are different in that samus fsmash reaches ever so slightly further, and most of damus’ arm cannon moves hit lower to the ground, aka charge shot, missiles, and upsmash

Dark samus also has three frames shaved off her roll, but samus has much better animations for avoiding attacks since dark samus just kinda throws her arms out everywhere when jumping or attacking so she’s easier to hit even if she’s slightly shorter

Most high level samus players go for regular samus but the best in the world YB goes Dark Samus so there’s not really much difference

>been wondering why the fuck Ganondorf is considered better than Ridley with that shit recovery
>this tier list vindicated me

No, people have just learned to play around him and exploit his weaknesses more.
Also he tends to do poorly against the high/top tier characters which hurts his effective placement on this list.

imagine being an insufferable tier whore, and then acting surprised and offended like a literal tranny on the verge of shedding bitch tears when someone speaks the truth. Get off my video game board at once, and return to /r/gaming

I don't really think that buffing a lot of the characters would do much good. Unfortunately, people play as a select few characters online just because they're really good online. I don't think there's much they can really do about that unfortunately.

I'd still love to see everybody receive buffs, but the Smash team's philosophy of buffing strengths rather than fixing glaring weaknesses probably won't help launch a lot of characters into higher tiers.

People realized that they just suck and Ganon is still pretty shit.

Eeyup

Since the multi-hit on magic burst is the equivalent of rapid jab you can just tough guy it out and proceed to do whatever you may please on Hero. So long as you do it before the final hit of the attack
twitter.com/maruttidabe/status/1156464645563023365

No, he got buffed. He just hasn't had any showings lately, and people have realized how to punish him.

Also, there's no on in Mid or higher that he has an advantage against.

Wow, did I touch a nerve and make you cry? Calm the fuck down, you're embarrassing yourself.

Name one character ranked higher than Ganon that Ganon has an advantage against.

That's why he's low now.

Stop samefagging and fuck back off to gaia

Go figure that Dark Samus, a literal clone of Samus, actually still ends up with more differences than Simon and Richter, who are two different people.

>bowser
>hight tier
nice

I'd argue Richter was the basis of all of Simon's moveset that they decided to throw him a bone.

The RNGness of a character is a spectrum. True Luigi, Peach and MrG&W have RNG but I think everyone would agree Hero has more. Evidently a character that was 100% RNG, such as, he flips a coin and if it's heads he wins and if it's tails he loses, would be banned no question since not only would he take 0 skill to play but it would also completely negate the skill of whoever he was playing against. So the question becomes where is the line and has Hero crossed it. Most of the Smash community thinks he hasn't but there are a lot of people that believe he has. A lot of aussies especially

South australia specifically. Do note that a fucking Rool won their tourney so that probably tells more about them.

They fixed the frame issue and hitboxes for both of them in the patch (now it's the worst of both worlds).

Samus FSmash still hits further, and Damus still hits lower.

It's just because they actually modeled Samus and Dark Samus separately, resulting in a few pixels of lower height, rather than just reskinning one model, like they did for Simon/Richter (and Pit/Dark Pit, Peach/Daisy, and Ryu/Ken)

The big question is if Hero would broken if his Smashes always Crit and if he had access to every Down-B move at will via a panel system so that no move was more than 4 presses away.

I actually don't know that he would be, and think Joker, Peach, Snake, and Pikachu would still be arguably better.

because interesting mechanics will always lose to good frame data

If you think Jig has air game, you’re a fucking retard. Air game means having good hit boxes on your nair and fair, and the right jump height to be able to land short hop nairs and fairs on opponents who are grounded or on the low platforms. Just watch pros play, all they fucking do is spam aerials.

What about Pokemon Trainer and Arsene?

>so is Jigglypuff good in this game again?
Fuck no

>Because she has the best air game of any fighter.
The FUCK have you been smoking?

Well his crit smashes kill at like 0-10% and with Oomph they're even more ridiculous so my guess would be yes, he'd be broken

pkmn trainer is interesting mechanics with good frame data
>squirtle is a lightweight with good air speed and strings (read, top tier)
>ivysaur aerials

arsene is a boring mechanic with good frame data
>take an already decent character
>automatically fill up meter that gives him a buff to every move
>down B charges that meter with literally no drawbacks in air
>counter and reflect bundled into one while meter is full

Luckily I'm a Bowser main since melee. BUT MY KING K ROOL. WHAT HAPPENED? Did they NERF him too hard?

>Dorf, K Rool, Ridley, Dedede all at the bottom

Get shidded on

Pro trainers are starting to rescind that idea and are using more Squirtle after Tweek showed them all that the little fucker is busted even without ivy. Now with the nerfs the two are much harder to distinguish who’s strictly the better character. The Zard buffs helped but he still needs some work done. The nair was a great start

>Lucas making [your favourite food]/omelettes
Perfect

Literally nobody ever said that, the issue with Hero is entirely unrelated to how good he is.
He could be the worst character in the game and should still be banned, playing with or against him is basically equivalent to turning items on.

His crit smash absolutely does not kill at 0%. Not even a lightweight character.

No people just realized he sucks. Belly armor was horribly designed and hurts him more than it benefits him most of the time cause he has to be extremely cautious with the amount of percent he can take when just trying to nair to land or something

>literally no drawbacks
>has a cooldown of like 2 seconds
Reading a Joker Down B is almost as good as getting a shield break, in the air it's a free gimp

meh

Am I blind or is this missing Villager?

an rng focused character is the worst thing. just because hes not top tier doesnt mean hes not detrimental to the competitive spirit

Dorpsbewoner is the top of the Low Tier, are you high?

Top of low tier

oh you

you know you still take damage in rebels guard right?

>Is Jigglypuff good in...
Unless the next word is Melee, the answer is no.

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Increase his airspeed too, and make his attacks a little stronger in general.

Sakurai kills another Hero at 0% from the middle of the stage in the showcase with a fully chardged crit Fsmash. Imagine what it does to Jiggly on the edge. Whatever even if 10-20% is a more accurate range it's still ridiculous and it'd be 0% with Oomph.

Just from a quick Google I can find him killing a Charizard in an actual match with uncharged usmash crit at 25%. Off the top in FD. lol

Do all that, buff his grounded movement, but keep his known catch animation, as is there’s a tech that lets you reverse your momentum when doing it and if he had better mobility that might be worth a damn

Also, most importantly, rework armor to tank 2 hits for free no matter what move it was, possibly more depending on the percentage like Tough Guy. If the hitbox is 3% or less he can tank as many as he needs, but if it’s more than that THEN it’ll add to the count

>Hitting anything with U-Smash

Anyone who gets hit with Hero's U-Smash has already lost the match.

It's a true combo from uair scoop at low percentages
So if he always crit that that's what, a dead easy two hit 60%-70% combo from 0% kek

It's basically a better counter.

And no Knockback. And you power up Arsene at 2x the rate. Yeah, it's fucking good.

"Those who can do, can't teach", or "Those who teach, can't do"?

It is a better counter, but counter is a shit move exclusively used against active hitbox recoveries in pro matches, so it's far from broken I'd say

What a compelling argument.

It's counter/reflect with Arsene, and it's Limit Break with Knockback negation when it's not.

It's a fucking good move.

>Mega Man is good
>but I hate how he plays in Ultimate
I guess even if I tried 4 again I'd probably hate it too since I know they changed a lot of things after the first year

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Most tops are saying how they think he'll move down unless new techs are found, and there's no placements for him lately, so he'll probably get shoved down to mid or lower soon.

Dark Samus exists with 8 alternate colors.

? Kameme is literally one of the best players in ultimate right now. Yeti is also putting in work with him

And all 8 are absolute shit.

Any of you shitters gonna host or naw

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but

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imagine tierwhoring in a literal children's game

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>Kameme
Has already said that Megaman is fun so he'll never drop him but he's probably going to switch to Wario for top matches since Megaman's potential is reached.

>Yeti
He's trying his damndest but he's not even close to Kameme - There's a reason why Kameme 2 or even 3 stocks him regularly.

Thing is they clearly want Samus to be more of a combo-oriented zoner in this, in that her actual projectiles lead into combos. Charge shot at various charge rates combos into dash attack or grab or even bair, super missile combos into any aerial at lower percents, etc.

But then they made super missile telegraphed as fuck. The stall in the air it has before shooting out feels counterintuitive, that's the kind of thing you give to a threatening and powerful killing projectile, not one that will never kill and only leads into combos at low percents. Not to mention it's awful priority, I think it out prioritizes Mega Man's pellets and nothing beyond that.

Then they went and nerfed shield damage on all projectiles, so charge shot is no longer nearly as threatening/pressuring as it was before. They added more shield stun at least

I do agree they should give Samus something like her smash4 dash attack back, but they went out of their way to change how dash attack works to begin with, it was an intentional change. So that means they're most likely never going to change it back

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You're a blasphemous motherfucker, you know?

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>he doesn't pick only low tier characters
>he doesn't abuse and spam every cheap move they have to offer
>he doesn't rub salt into the wounds of the tierwhoring tiny penis shitters he dabs on
>he doesn't blame it on the fact that he plays a low tier character whereas the oponent has a high tier character when he loses in order to devaluate their victory
>he doesn't mock them when they unironically use shitty smash terms, such as "meteor smash", or "wavedash" in an attempt to act cool and knowledgeable

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Why did they nerf his down b along with the global projectile nerf?
The shield damage is so much lower now.

They did change dash attack in the 1.14 or 1.15 patch or whichever one it was for smash 4 from a shitty falcon dash attack to the monster it was at the end of the game

Plus, they intentionally changed diddy’s Dash attack from 4 to ultimate and now they buffed it to be a damn solid combo tool again. There’s still hope

What? They didn’t need his down b, they explicitly buffed it to do more shield damage and go faster

True, there is still some hope. I was really hoping the 5.0 patch would bring some Samus or Ridley buffs but then it didn't bring any changes at all kek
Guess all there is now is to wait for 5.1. They wouldn't wait until Terry's release in november to put that patch out...would they?

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Why would you think Arsene was interesting? If Joker had a completely different moveset when it was active we could talk, all it does is make him stronger and take away his grappling hook which is his only mechanically interesting thing.

F-Smash to Super Missile (launched) is guaranteed at certain percents.

Smart Bomb FUCKS shields up - They just didn't want you to break shields for free, but Smart Bomb already puts on tons of pressure.

>Well his crit smashes kill at like 0-10%
Only fully charged. I've been hit by crits at 40% and still lived.

No, if Hero can hit you, then he's broken. No if buts or ands. Australia is ahead of their time.

>Ness not being in his own tier with "Hamburgers found in a garbage can"

What immensely shit taste.

>Mid-Mid-Tier

Basically.

Really wish she was high-tier so pros would pick her with confidence. Watching high-level WFT is super entertaining. Lots of fun tech in her kit. Like watching high-level duck hunt.

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Meteor Smash is the official in-game terminology, though. Spiking is the silly made up one.

Look at the smashlet try to justify their made-up terms.

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I don't even care, I just call them A-attack, B-attack, grab-attack, and smash-attack like any person with a functioning brain.

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Hm.

>Samus and ZSS being in different categories despite being the same person
???