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>implying
I want to stick my dick into it
FF8 has a retarded dumb story, boring characters and absolutely broken gameplay. Lower tier FF game. Prove me wrong.
It is you who are dumb, you know, in the head. Not the game. Low tier intelligence. So low you can not understand FF8. Prove us wrong.
>worst FF has the best music and mini game
Fucking why?
2 has a mediocre ost
On a scale of 1 to 10, Squall's poker face is a 27.
My impossibly high intelligence is exactly what allowed me to truly grasp FF8 and realize that it is an inferior product.
It is fine if you enjoy the game, my child, for you shall eventually grow up and look for true potential in your surroundings and thus also entertainment resources. Do not fret if such transitions to not take place on short notice. Give your soul time to grow.
Explain this image to someone that has never played FF8, full spoilers.
MC made a mfw post without using a picture
Those are all subjective opinions except maybe the "broken gameplay," but that's really only the case when replaying when you know how you can manipulate the game.
>these opinions are subjective!
B-bakana..!
This is from an ending FMV after time is coming back together into a linear state. During the game. Time is compressed such that all events, past, present and future, are happening at once. Everything becomes fairly abstract at that point and, when time is decompressed, Squall sees his life flash before his eyes, including some weird, distorted versions of events. Faceless Squall is just one of those distorted images.
>tfw you can see the polygons in squall's face hole
I can't, you're right. They're shitty fans are just more proof of it as well.
Sounds like an interesting game, even if nonsensical. Is it really that shit?
All opinions are subjective.
A really neat final boss design.
is there a big-open-mouth wojak edit of this image?
Explain
Not shit genius.
Not at all. The cast is great and the battle system is a great evolution of FFVII's. The story is mostly good but a bit silly at parts (some extreme plot contrivance here and there,) and the Junction and Drawing systems aren't nearly as obtuse as people make them out to be.
Junctioning is literally just "Select important stat, scroll through to find magic that boosts that the most, move on to next stat, repeat," and Drawing is more of an early game mechanic. You supplant it with Refining abilities your GFs (summons) grant as you go.
I'll admit I'm a bit biased though, FFVIII has been my favorite entry since I was a kid.
Based
Is this is og omegalul?
kek'ed really hard
Look at the image, especially at the bottom of the curve. It's not round, it looks like this \_/
what the fuck
this exact same thread was up a few days ago with the exact same comments??
All existence denied.
My face when I have no face
ff8 is better than your favorite ff
what the hell are you talking about?
FF15 had minigames?
It escapes you.
KANTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
what?
>FF8 has a retarded dumb story
Just like the rest of the FF franchise.
Time shall compress
are you role-playing or something? you're not answering my question
He's saying you have no face, user.
And...
the question is going through the hole in HIS face actually.
Mine seems to be working.
Give it more prominent glasses. I can't really tell it's his eyes
Fishing is a minigame I guess
why is rinoa such a whore
She fucked seifer. Disgusting that Squall settled for that.
>R=U
Icedeath fags use the frame to say they are right. Absolute retards.
The frame needs to be viewed in context with the rest of the FMV:
The ending FMV consists of three parts -- Squall's part, Rinoa's part, and then the rest of the ending. Rinoa's part is when she runs through the night to the flower field, and when she finds Squall. Squall's part is the stuff prior to her finding him, it's what goes through his mind after he's transported back from the past into the future (to the present). He's walks around lost in space and time, and drifts into unconsciousness until Rinoa awakes him.
Squall, before Rinoa finds him, is going through his memory trying to connect with his friends, focusing mostly on Rinoa (prior to the end battle Quistis and Laguna talk of the importance of mentally focusing on your friends and using your connection to them to find your way back after time travel).
Squall is trying to remember and focus on Rinoa. Before that frame with his empty head, we see several instances of Rinoa's face getting obscured and blurred out, followed by three frames of her face getting replaced with Artemisia, then immediately after that Rinoa dissolves, and immediately after that; that frame with Squall's empty head occurs, followed quickly by the glass of Rinoa's helmet shattering with the Griever ring floating out. Right after that we see a zoom on Squall's eye shedding a tear and him falling to his knees with head angled upwards, as if expressing that he realized something horrible and soul-crushing. That weird shit he sees is all symbolic -- he realized he had just killed Rinoa in the final battle. Rinoa never had a blurry face problem, she never dissolved nor was killed in space, nor is Squall's head empty. All that sutff is just simply symbolic of the feelings Squall is experiencing in his mind at that moment.
After that nightmare ends he wakes up after Rinoa finds him. And all is well in that timeline. Happy ending.
Deleted and reposted the post because I first posted a bad quality version of the pic.
Seifer is trans
Confirmed
wtf is "Icedeath"?
Both R=U and Squall is dead have been dismissed by the creators
Squall gets impaled by ice through the chest in an FMV, so very similar to Aerith. He, in contrast to her, though, wakes up on the next without any wound and is completely fine. It's never explained. Let to many people believing Squall died there and the rest of the game is a dream.
>wakes up on the next without any wound and is completely fine. It's never explained
They take all kinds of damage in combat much more severe than an ice spike, and totally walk it off. Magic is obviously not very damaging in this universe. Being that Edea was Matron and possibly somewhat in control, she might have specifically dampened her spell so that it wouldn't hurt Squall but would end the immediate conflict
so your telling me that they all just forgot they grew up together, huh? except for the cowboy who magically remembered?
People who assumed he died after he was impaled with the ice at the end of disc 1.
Anons, please educate yourselves on the risks and potential side effects of blankposting. Don't end up like OP.
I know and I know the theory is bullshit. But it's about the context that it's shown in. FMV's are normally shown off in FF games to show the real deal. Aeris randomly dies from one stab in an FMV after she's undoubtly taken many comets to the face and God knows what else on her journey throughout FF7. You can't take what happens in the battles at face value. This is why that theory of Squall is dead even started, it's because it's presented in a way that it matters, it's just that it ends up being just as insignificant as any action in a random battle.
...
...
All existence denied.
GFs taking up a spot in the brain where memories are stored could make for a interesting plot point. Ultimately thou it was pointless since they resolve it in 5 seconds by having everyone recorded everything in notebooks. Like what was the point of this twist? If the writer wanted them to be childhood friends just have them be childhood friends.
FOR GOD'S SAKE
Arthas made Ultimedea miss Squall's vitals
Selphie
Is
Top
Cute
>square literally named this character "selfie"
>she doesn't even own a phone
what a bunch of rubes
My balls are kind of sweaty today guys, sorry.
Also canonically the most powerful character in all of FF
she's has competition
I liked it when I got this when I fought Omega Weapon although it feels like I was robbed of a good fight
>Omega Weapon
>good fight
Ultima Weapon is the true good fight, Omega's attack sequence is fixed after the opening Level-5 Death.
You were, that fight is really great if you don't cheese it
>Let to many people believing Squall died there and the rest of the game is a dream.
Dead people don't dream. What a dumb theory.
If neural processes slow as you die, an instant could feel like eons
Pic: Ultimecia's final form explained for toddlers.
Autism
Also autism
The worst part of the story is the space part simply because they miraculously find that ship that's been lost for fucking ever, and the lunar whatever people let them keep it.
But the story actually makes more sense than ff7
What are they going to do with a spaceship they don't know how to operate?
It was their ship? They had only lost it for like 20 years or some shit? Selphie could fly it fucking instantly, I'm sure the most advanced society on the planet could figure it out. They had a landing pad for it for fuck sakes.
And George Lucas says Greedo shot Han first, and that Han never shot at all. Sure.
Appealing to authority is of zero value when the statements by that authority figure (regardless of what his role entailed) clearly contradicts and/or shits on the established lore and story (examples being George Lucas and Akira Yamaoka). And especially so when the company he works for continuously shits on the whole franchise.
And games are made by many different people who each work on different aspects of the game; it's not like everyone in the development team is aware of everything.
Just imagine; there really exists retards who are so retarded they actually legitimately believe in the joke meme that Squall was killed by some ice to the shoulder during a magic battle and that the rest of the story is a meaningless dream, and thinks that crap makes perfect sense AND YET AT THE SAME TIME think of Rinoa becoming Ultimecia in the other timeline (which lead to the Castle future) is absurd and crazy and stupid, even though it passes the "acid test" flawlessly by seamlessly fitting perfectly into the story and matching up with all the lore and plot details, without fucking anything up.
If two retarded teenagers can figure it out, it can't be that difficult
Did you miss the part about the protag's dad being glorious leader of spaceship nation
It's autism if autism means not being 100% left-brained and clinically brain-dead in the right hemisphere.
The entire battle system is boring. Just junction the best spells to the relevant stat and have your GFs spread appropriately and you never have to use a single spell. It's just another iteration of "attack always".
Kitase would have known major plot points, and an overarching twist would have been the most major. An outright denial means it wasn't the intent.
And it contradicts nothing, just your interpretation of weak cues that there was something unspoken going on (when in fact there wasn't). The Lucas example is completely different.
True, true.
They had at least two more as seen in the fmv where Adel is launched into space
Ultimecia final form explained by Nomura's personal notes.
Cooler pic here
It passes the acid tests flawlessly.
Your interpretation of a character design as it relates to thematic plot elements is specific to you -- subjective. Your informational diagram is laughable as it conveys nothing. It just has a picture of the character model in question with your analysis of a frankly very weakly developed character who only has a handful of dialogue lines
"My opinion is fact" is the very essence of autism.
Why did they send Rinoa up to space? Why did the test have to be performed there? I really thought the german scientist guy was going to be in on it. Teamed up with Ultimecia. That would make sense because he's the one who wanted Rinoa in space.
But then basically nope. They just wanted her up there to perform some operation and it was perfect for her to free Adel. Like what happens if Opennigger or whatever his name was didn't send her up there? Then Ultimecia is fucked.
>acid test
I honestly don't know what this is and google isn't helping me.
> by seamlessly fitting perfectly into the story and matching up with all the lore and plot details, without fucking anything up.
"It was all a dream" does this with every story ever written. The ability to form fit your narrative without contradiction just speaks to how weak of a character Ultimecia was because she has basically no relevance on the entire story until the very end. She could be an Eskimo for all the difference it makes, as long as she can travel through time to start the whole mess it doesn't matter.
Possesed Edea kept him alive because she wanted information on SeeDs, which is exactly why Seifer ended up torturing Squall for that info.
I agree completely. It's very similar to what I remember from playing the game a decade ago. I just went and looked at the ending to confirm what you said. You are right.
Rinoa = Ultimecia elevates this game's story into a whole another level.
>a whole another level.
R=U fags in a nutshell
coming through my mind.
We're going with yours
Wasn't this deconfirmed?
OMEGALUL?
It was, but I still love it as an interpretation of the story. Makes everything have much more impact.
I appreciate that.
An example: In our reality, in our solar system, if in the recent human past (approx 10k years ago), Saturn was our main sun (as a brown dwarf star) and Earth, Mars and Venus was in a polar alignment with Saturn, with Mars and Venus and as well as Saturn being much closer to Earth, and Saturn and Venus were emitting glowing filamentary plasma discharges (visible Birkeland currents), and if electricity is the main driving force in the universe (and not gravity), and Mars was scarred by catastrophic planetary-scale lightning bolts, then there must be lots of evidence for this in many different ways, historically, in the myths, in culture, and physically and scientifically, and it must explain a lot of things while simultaneously not contradicting reality (if it does appear to contradict something however, then that may that "something" is incorrect; for example the theory of uniformitarianism and gradualism - that the solar system has remained the same for millions of years, those theories must be abandoned if they are shown to be incorrect), /and/ it must survive anything thrown at it, which it does - that stuff passes the acid test over and over again.
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That's exactly why a lot of haters of FF8 lash out against it so violently. One of them admitted here in another thread a month ago that he was against it simply because "I don't want FF8 to be well written."
Oh, I remembered, it was in a thread which was discussing Jenova of FF7, and how much control she had over Sephiroth genetically.
>Rinoa is Jenova
The fuck outta here
I blame Spoony for blowing up 8's bad reputation to meme levels. I've always loved it, and while it is a flawed game, I still think it gets shat on all too often by people regurgitating regurgitations of regurgitations of his criticisms
Creating a theory that's unfalsifiable is not the same as proving that theory is correct. In fact, unfalsifiable hypotheses are inherently unscientific, because science is about proving competing theories wrong and accepting what's left over. The flat earth theory, for instance, stands up to this level of scrutiny, but only because it's been constructed in that way. At every junction a reason can be fabricated for why it isn't wrong.
The problem with R=U is the lack of positive evidence. Not just coincidences (these are bound to occur with any crackpot theory), but something that goes out of its way to positively steer the conversation in that specific direction. And this doesn't happen.
Ultimecia as a character is only revealed in disc 3 and has a handful of dialogue lines in the entire game. She's extremely poorly developed. You could just as easily make the argument that ANY character in the game is secretly her, and it would require little explanation because FF8's universe involves Magic. With magic, all bets off, because any shortcoming can be explained away: a wizard did it.
Kitase not only shrugged it off but didn't even care for it. He *liked* the Squall is dead theory (which is equally laughable).
So kindly fuck off.
Squall is killed by Seifer during the intro
That's the stupidest shit I've read all day, fuck off.
What is this /x/ shit?
>“No, that is not true,” Kitase said, laughing. “I think he was actually stabbed around the shoulder area, so he was not dead. But that is a very interesting idea, so if we ever do make a remake ofFinal Fantasy VIII, I might go along with that story in mind.”
Did they actually do it?
Dunno, 8 has never been remade.
Squall is Seifer
I am Kitase
Hironobu is Sakaguchi
Sup Kitase, it's me you're bro from another mo, Nomura-san. How's you're day today bro?? Me and the boys left the office early today yall know im sayin, went to play some soccor and fucked some bitches in an abadoned alleyway Hahaha.
Any source on that? Sounds bullshit.
It's time kompression, I ain't gotta explain shit.
Don't talk to me or Yoshida-san ever again
>The cast is great
It has one of the most unlikable casts in the series though. I'd say only XIII can compete on that front.
N-nani? Kitase-san wtf. We still need to create so many project together. We have 17 more installments to go for 7 remake m8!
I'd argue that you can only dislike the cast because they're fleshed out. Prior to FF8 we basically had props of characters who only existed to keep the plot moving. FF8 had thoughts, feelings and banter and while it wasn't particularly complex, it was the first game that did it. The characters felt passably like real people, at least for the era
>
based
7 remake a shit, YU NEVER RISSEN
>happy end
Well, the time loop still exists, it's just closed so squall and the garden will die to ultimecia eventually. Not so happy.
The only one stuck inside the loop is Ultimecia. Squall and gang only do the loop once, and get to live normally after
No. All that happened was one of the guys who worked on FF8 basically gave the reply "Darth Vader and Anakin are not the same characters"
But no history was changed. Ultimecia still exists up to the point where she is destroyed by Past Squall. I'm not seeing how they live beyond the destroyed future stuff.
Clearly, Kitase can go fuck himself and so can you.
More like "Han and Greedo are not the same characters"
It's /sci/
>You could just as easily make the argument that ANY character in the game is secretly her
No, you can't. Because nobody except Rinoa has any connection to her. Rinoa has plenty, whereas the other have none (except for Squall).
this piece of shit cat one shot god and basically you're fucking retarded
my only problem with this game is the level scaling. you never feel strong enough if you play it normally without knowing about all the card refinement shenanigans
it’s easy now to turn around and say LOL JUST REFINE CURAGAS FROM TENTS. though I admit the game was quite enjoyable given the self-imposed handicaps.
I wish the remaster included an option for disabling the scaling and rebalancing the game around permanent stats.
>scaling meme
Retard.
The future was only destroyed in the compressed time state
Ever play Escape from Monkey Island? Guybrush gets stuck in the swamp of time or something and his future self gives him a key to open this gate. He uses that key to get through the gate, and later has to go give his (then) past self the key, completing the loop. Yeah, that loop is forever there, but Guybrush isn't trapped in it. It's a local loop.
It's really not. It just seems this way because of junctioning, GF growth and other character development. Stat-wise, characters and enemies grow pretty much the same, so you're best off keeping your own level low and developing your characters through other means instead
levels by themselves are worth shit if you are stupid when junctioning magic
Even without Time Kompression she is apparently an evil sorceress in the future who already fought off SeeD. If she's in the distant future then I guess Squall and Co. do indeed live happily ever after, with a new generation eventually suffering until Squall pops in to save the day.
How does the Same rule in Triple Triad work? Does it only apply from certain specific positions? Every time I think I have it lined up it never works and meanwhile my opponent is comboing my ass and destroying me with it
Same is if 2 sides match 2 or more adjacent cards. You can't "Same" just one card. It has to b 2 or more matching.
>post literally talking about how scaling prevents overleveling from making you strong, so you need to pay attention to junctions
>THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH SCALING REEEE
Oh the irony
I think it's just a future that doesn't actually happen, an alternate timeline from time compression
"Time compression" itself is difficult to explain with standard science fiction tropes, it's basically a plot hole in itself. They clearly wanted to do a time travel story but couldn't figure out how to make it work so they just made an extremely lazy catch-all
Head like a hole, Black as your soul
Isn't there a stat cap on enemy scaling though? That's what I remember hearing
And either way scaling upwards makes you able to draw higher tier magic to get stronger anyway, so it's not like leveling is a bad thing
>And either way scaling upwards makes you able to draw higher tier magic to get stronger anyway, so it's not like leveling is a bad thing
You can make all of the magic in the game without leveling. I think the no level run is actually the easiest way to play the game. You can get nearly as powerful as you can at level 100 and enemies are far far weaker
You can get all the high tier magic you need far easier by just refining. Leveling is absolutely pointless in FF8.
>tfw no gf
The power scaling in the game does not prevent you from becoming overpowered by leveling. It's super easy to become overpowered. All you need to do is level up. The enemies can't even remotely keep up with you.
All you need to be overpowered is level up and rely primarily on limit breaks. And enemies have a max level, once they reach that they don't go above it.
While it's impossible to fully make sense of time travel (because it's a fantasy and not possible), there is most likely no loop. For there to be a loop there must only be 1 timeline. But there are two timelines in the game.
Timeline A: The good timeline, the one we play.
Timeline B: The bad timeline, which leads to the Castle future, in which Sorceress Rinoa loses her knight (Squall) and ends up getting killed by the the party which the player controls.
Well, in either timeline, they have not prevented the existence or rise of Ultimecia. All that would still happen.
What's next? Hideo is kojima? Dont make me laugh
Drawing takes much less time and resources than painstakingly going through hundreds of games of Triple Triad for one card at a time at the beginning of the game and trying to keep track of what cards and items refine into what, making the whole experience into a spreadsheet simulator. What a dull way to play the game
>monsters come from the moon pissing on the earth
Were they retarded?
>It's super easy to become overpowered
This. And powering up in 8 is extremely fun and rewarding. Recommending players to stay underpowered is a horrible advice which results in a very unfun, boring and stale gameplay...
>making the whole experience into a spreadsheet simulator.
That's what all JRPGs are. However you maintain the illusion is up to you. I find not mindlessly grinding against enemies who are also leveling up on you to be more interesting
>Sorceress Rinoa loses her knight (Squall) and ends up getting killed by the the party which the player controls.
Stop. Your crackpot theory is literally deconfirmed.
Someone make this a goatse edit
>still more emotion than anyone put into ff8
By who? People who don't know what they're talking about?
>No, you can't
Yes, I can.
>nobody except Rinoa has any connection to her
And what connection is that? That they're both sorceresses? Have you considered that Quistis maybe is too and we just don't know it?
R=U is the worst type of fucking fanfiction.
>tfw the majority of people hate one of your all time favorite games
It's not even interesting. It's the equivalent of a 12 year old making things up as he goes.
They prevent it in the timeline we see when when play the game. "Ultimecia" does not come into existence there, because she is with Squall and they have peace in the world. There is no fighting. Rinoa did not "end up fighting everyone", as she feared she would.
The two timelines begin the same, but then diverge at some point. And what causes that divergence? It is the interference (influencing and manipulating past events) caused by Ultimecia from the "Castle Future" which results in the story timeline (the one we play) becoming the good timeline. She is responsible for her own demise. If she hadn't done anything, then they wouldn't know about her existence at all.
Oh, right, I skipped over the fact that you're a R=U retard. Goodbye.
>calling it a theory
It wasn't even a "theory" until 2006 or so, and really not even debated until it blew up on forums later. Before that it was just part of the game experience.
>SeeD hunts sorceresses
>Rinoa is a sorceress
>Therefore Rinoa is Ultimecia
>QED
Please tell me this is a fucking ruse. You cannot be this stupid.
>I can't handle any amount of truth, or face up to the fact my IQ is low, waaah waaah I'm running away
Retard this is just a bit of information, the theory has so much more behind it.
Nobody is saying that. Why don't you just admit you hate FF8?
that design kinda reminds me of ffx anima
This. People are terrible.
Then present evidence.
I hate autists like you who think their screwball interpretation is the only correct one
Fine, give me a sec so I can recompile everything. Maybe then you can finally shut the fuck up.
Riddle me this: If R does not equal U then why in fact does R equal U?
Whatever.
Honestly it just kinda looks like Ultimecia's true form and the human catalyst/form is being juctioned to it or her true form is protruding from it kinda like how she's ensnared by a bunch of blue and red veins.
The "evidence" as you call it, is littered throughout the game. You close your eyes and ears to it, because you want nothing to do with it. And/or you demand the game to tell you all of the story explicitly. We can't help you when you act like that. It's your choice.
The worst fucking thing is how the edges aren't sharp, like just the face is missing.
The edges are fucking curved and skin colored, like they hollowed out his fucking skull
Ultimecia read Squall's mind as to what he believes is the most powerful thing in the world and created Griever based on his mindset.
finalfantasy.fandom.com
>The "evidence" as you call it, is littered throughout the game. You close your eyes and ears to it, because you want nothing to do with it.
Weak coincidences can be shaped into virtually anything. I could come up with an equally crackpot theory and find "clues" "scattered" throughout the script to support it. In fact, I should just to demonstrate how fucking ridiculous this is. It's the same way you can read Nostradamus's predictions of 9/11, etc. T
The strongest "links" you have are Rinoa being a sorceress, when they're known to possess other sorceresses. It's not enough.
"The human mind has an equal capacity for pattern-matching and self-deception."
Reminder that S=U.
Good question. One can say however that while they are the same individual (under different circumstances), they also are also NOT the same individual. In the same sense that Anakin isn't Vader - when Anakin became Vader, Anakin was dead.
That tired old meme. No, she didn't. That's an absurd stretch of an imagination based on the scan spell saying Squall believes Griever is the most powerful summon, taken out of context.
Also, linking the FF wiki? Seriously? That place is absolutely full of garbage everywhere and it takes EVERYTHING Squenix does as 100% gospel truth and canon. In the FF wiki universe, Rufus didn't FF7 and Sephiroth is completely in control of Jenova.
>just Rinoa being a sorceress
How about where the Ultimecia castle is? the final cutscene where Rinoa's face keeps alternating into Ultimecia's?
There's a reason why this theory gained traction, it's because there's multiple things scattered throughout the game that could allude to that.
A young girl named Ultimecia, who was a friend of mine before she turned to evil, helped the sorceresses hunt down the SeeDs.
She then betrayed and murdered Rinoa.
What I've told you is true. From certain point of view.
Makes me think of Ansem at the end of the first KH.
>How about where the Ultimecia castle is?
N-no. T-t-that's just a coincidence! She just h-happened to park and chain her floating castle right up next to the place most special for Squall and Rinoa, where they promised to meet. It m-m-means n-n-nothing!
It's even more evident considering how the opening of the fucking game starts on that promise with this particular song
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i dig it
Cite your sources that refute that then
>Ruby dragons gain a breath skill that is generally lethal to any character without some combination of 3/4 maxed out stats E.G. (160 vit+7000hp)
>a low-statted attempt requires enough speed to cast triple-protect
>Gains meteor, which may RNG someone to death anyway, no matter your stats.
And all that assuming the player is old enough to understand what vitality, spirit, protect, and shells do.
>some monsters have a different loot table as they level up, sometimes for the worse and therefore requiring card-faggotry to obtain an ingredient you have missed
Thats just a few of the mechanical fuckups in the levelling system but I'm sure the scaling problem is just a meme.
>How about where the Ultimecia castle is
Because time compression was achieved exploiting Ellone's powers, the past being specific to Ellone's childhood is no accident. It's also why Griever is the final summon, this compressed reality is closely tied to Squall and gang, so it is comprised of elements from their childhood. Not really sure what else you mean unless you're more specific
>the final cutscene where Rinoa's face keeps alternating into Ultimecia's?
youtu.be
You mean this? There's tons of fucked up shit, it also shows a montage of all of their faces merging together withing a few moments. I guess they're all the same character! Squall is stuck in a time loop, he's trying to remember Rinoa and his friends but he obviously has little control over it and starts seeing horrific things like Ultimecia and Rinoa dying in space (I guess that happened, too? Rinoa is dead, guys!)
The real problem with this theory is that it's paraded as deep when it's not. It's something a 12 year old would come up with. You're really the villain! HAahah got you, it was the last thing you'd ever expect. Maybe if you're fucking braindead. Only the Squall is dead theory is worse.
That's not the point of the theory you dumb fucking asshole, what the theory does is actually give that much more importance to Squall and Rinoa's romance and the themes of fate that the game hammers through your fucking skull. It has nothing to do with what you mentioned like a cheap twist a 12 year old would come up with
It's foreshadowing to the time loop. The beginning is the end is the beginning.
God you fuckers really are braindead.
>It's foreshadowing to the timeloop
Yeah I'm sure that's why they fucking put the Sorceress's theme instead of a hopeful one.
Huh? Ultimecia has her role to play regardless of her independence as a character. She doesn't need to be Rinoa for the plot to work. That's the whole problem with the theory, it's completely detached. It's like "It was all a dream", you can take it or leave it and it doesn't change anything because it's completely superfluous.
>takes EVERYTHING Squenix does as 100% gospel truth and canon
god forbid a content creator have any say in what is and isn't canon
>'Rinoa is Ultimecia' has been officially debunked by Kitase, in an interview with Jason Schreier of Kotaku: “No, that is not true,” Kitase said. ... But that being said, both Rinoa and Ultimecia are witches, so in that sense they are similar, but they're not the same person.
web.archive.org
God you faggots are unbearable. Ultimecia likes to fuck with the people who want to kill her, especially SeeD, and doubly especially Squall because he's the one who defeats her.
I'm just sad that the game got so rushed and the budget was cut short. It's obvious they were going to flesh out the story and the setting way more.
b-b-but my crackpot theory!
Something I can add to that, relating to the opening music and to the plot itself (in regards to a sorceress needing her knight, and without one she becomes evil/despotic/tyrannic):
FITHOS LUSEC WECOS VINOSEC
From that, remove the letters L O V E
What words can you then form, when love is gone?
Answer: SUCCESSION OF WITCHES
...Really? Did you miss the entire part where Ultimecia possesses Edea and Adel? Rinoa was *supposed* to be part of that chain, that's not to say that she is Ultimecia, just that she was going to be possessed by her. That's the succession.
I personally couldn't care less for the debate but once a creator releases their content, they really don't have any say over what it's meaning is to those who experience it, imo. If someone wants to believe Rinoa is Ultimecia that's for them to decide when they play the game. There are no "correct interpretations"
And, yes, we can do the whole canon is what the author says argument but that also opens up the content to strange changes that can be made for arbitrary reasons. If Kitase came out and said that Cloud was a girl, would you just automatically go along with it? "Canon" is just a term for what the majority of people think.
Describe what time kompression is in the most concise way possible
Removal of Past and Future creating only one enduring "Present"
I think... it's been awhile
>they really don't have any say over what it's meaning is to those who experience it, imo. If someone wants to believe Rinoa is Ultimecia that's for them to decide when they play the game
I'm completely for this, but don't call people idiots who dislike the theory.
>FFXV
>best music
Well, see, time normally flows this way.
But what if we let it flow any-fucking-way it wants, and hell, also not flow at all sometimes?
Probably tough to live in a world like that but I guess an unlivable universe is a good way to get rid of SeeD.
Hmm, I don't see Square Enix credited anywhere in this game. You'd think it would be on the box art but it's nowhere, not even in the ending credits.
>inb4 but some people from Square work with Squenix today
Yeah, that's a situation similar to some people who worked on Silent Hill still worked with Konami when the post SH4 games were released which completely fucks with the canon and totally disrespects the previous games. Even Akira Yamaoka was present.
>Edea says that Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future
>she also explains that Ultimecia has been possessing sorceresses in the past to try and control the future
>Ultimecia laments to the party she was hunted and hated for being a sorceress since childhood
>Kitase makes it final by saying they aren't the same person.
>HURR DURR, DEATH OF THE AUTHOR! THE STORY CAN MEAN ANYTHING YOU WANT!
No, the people still clinging to R=U or "Squall is dead" are objectively wrong.
I pronounce it "Rin-Oh-ah"
Kind of like Winona
Rinoa's blurry face always creeped me out more
how do you pronounce Rinoa anyway? I've been saying rye-noah[/spolier]
sounds like your dumbass couldn't figure out junctions
13 had shit both
Ree Nooh Ahhh
That's how I've been pronouncing it, but rin-noah is probably acceptable too.
S-E holds the rights, it's their call. The only thing that would arguably override that are the actual writers/scenario directors confirming their intent. So once again I'm gonna ask that sources be cited here.
>only intelligent people will get it
Why do pretentious over-confident brainlets think this argument actually works?
It's not as deep as you think and the overall game is just meh.
>OMG the garden is actually a giant ship!!!!
>the draw system is revolutionary!!!!
You faggots never cease to make me laugh.
The majority of the retards who like this game are actually obsessed with the female characters.
Not their actual characters, just their models.
This game is adored by literal incels.
>Canon" is just a term for what the majority of people think.
No, it isn't. It has a definition. It refers to a published body of work. Canon is what actually happens in the story. Rinoa and Ultimecia are not the same person.
>the succession is Ultimecia posessing other sorceresses
What? No, if we really get to the bottom if it, the actual "succession" itself is Hyne (who wanted to destroy humanity and who humanity tried to destroy) spiritually reincarnating into new humans (only women, supposedly) and also passing on his powers to a new host before the old host dies. Hyne started the succession.
The only thing which can suppress the "Hyne" aspect, in other words prevent the woman from becoming evil/tyrannic, is that she has a Knight who keeps her mentally balanced. In other words: LOVE is necessary. Without it, the "Hyne" aspect overpowers the woman's psyche.
If Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in the future, does that not make her a sorceress from the future?
Could she not have possessed people in the past from the point where she becomes Ultimecia in the future?
Do we take everything she says to be fact without suspicion? Could she not view her time as Rinoa as a kind of childhood?
Why should I care what Kitase says now?
I'm just playing devil's advocate but those aren't the best arguments
This guy answered correctly: And the reason she wants one everlasting present moment is answered in pic related, straight from the horse's mouth.
Faggot.
Wasn't there more than one person who wrote the game? Im also pretty sure Kitase is not the only visionary responsible for FF8 either. Don't forget; we don't truly know who called the shots to cut and keep segments of the game since its more than likely there were other programmers who worked to achieve a unity of ideas. And with the English translation, it's possible somebody may or may not have interpreted something along the way.
Something which hints at a time loop is the original game over screen.
It's a soft "I"
Rih-noh-ah
Maybe you should find the answers to these questions and properly cite some sources before presuming the people at Square/S-E are wrong and a fan theory is correct.
Scenario writer writes all the inane banter that doesn't change anything, much of which you've read into to create your retarded hypothesis. Like Rinoa saying "Maybe I could become a lion too". Squall had just mentioned what the lion symbolizes to him: strength and pride, and Rinoa is using it in this sense. "Maybe I can be proud and strong too". Not "I'm really Ultimecia, Squall"
Of course, Kitase was only part of it. But it's so easy for people to put ALL the blame or responsibility on 1 guy when it helps furhter some agenda they have (in this case hating on FF8).
And something to consider is that Kitase was the Director, a job which in the japanese game industry does not mean the same as in the western movie industry. While it's not the perfect analogy, we can sort of say a Director in the japanese game industry is similar to a conductor in a orchestra; he conducts the music, but he did not necessarily compose it.
Nojima was more responsible for the story and shaping the plot, than Kitase.
>Kazushige Nojima was in charge of Final Fantasy 8's plot, Yoshinori Kitase was the project director, Yusuke Naora was the art director, and Tetsuyu Nomura was in charge of character design.
I don't think you have any idea what a scenario writer is. Kitase is credited with the story, which means the basic story is his. If "girlfriend is really the villain" was an element of the story, this would have been sentence 1 in the plot summary, because the plot would have been shaped around something obviously that vital.
You're just reading into a couple coincidences none of which are very compelling, all of which boil down to Rinoa and Ultimecia both being sorceresses and Ultimecia possessing the body/mind of other sorceresses.
Because Ultimecia was born in the future. By being possessed by Ultimecia, Edea obviously knows facts about Ultimecia's life because she is literally passing on information to the party about it to try and help save the world, and she made no mention of Rinoa becoming evil (a pretty important fact you might want to share). Why should we take Ultimecia at face value? The trope of villains explaining their motivations so the audience understands, and she wasn't lying about anything else right? "She just considered Rinoa as her 'childhood' phase" or she was lying about her childhood are self serving and ad hoc explanations that have no proof of being true, and the childhood bit is pedantic and stretching the meaning of the word to absurdity (with, again, no reason to believe is the intention and is purely self serving to the theory). Why care about what Kitase says? Because he was asked to clarify confusion around major plot points being brought up, and he clarified them. R=U isn't a trivial theory, it completely changes the story and themes that the company created.
>Kitase: Final Fantasy VIII - PlayStation - Director, story, system designer, event scene direction
He was in charge of the story and event/scene direction. He may not have written all the dialogue, but he was in charge of what the story was, it's flow, themes, motifs. And he was asked "what did you mean by this" and he answered "Ultimecia and Rinoa aren't the same person, even though they are both witches". If there was an expert on the subject to ask it'd be him. Again R=U isn't a trivial theory, it completely changes the story and themes that the company created.
Man With The Machine Gun = Laguna, has a machine gun, plays during his fights
Maybe I'm a Lion = Rinoa, says she may become a lion, becomes a lion, plays when you fight her
Simple. But too difficult for you.
Am I retarded or is FFX the easiest 3d FF plot to follow?
Because I legit dont know what the fuck was even going on in 7 or 8.
It's pretty easy to follow. But did you understand that there is no time travel in FFX? I mean, Tidus is never transported into the future. Just a small test.
>Maybe I'm a Lion
Or maybe it's Squall facing his fears? Being strong and brave like a Lion. I mean, the music plays as we play AS Laguna, not as we fight Laguna.
The stretches you're making to make this work would be admirable if they weren't so pathetic. I mean, I guess "The Extreme" means we should go to extreme ends to rationalize our plot interpretation. Lol.
I mean, with: I'm not assuming you're stupid. I'm just saying, even something that easy to see is something which some people miss.
Griever is a lion. It's nothing symbolic or abstract or hallucinatory. She physically turns herself into a lion. And Squall tells Rinoa that it is in fact a lion.
It's been so long, but I want to say yes.
But who knows. I really should replay these games and actually play 9 for the first time. Heard it's pretty well loved.
Somethings are too simple that the beg the question if something more complex is really going on. Like the gardens fighting each other. A group of teenagers planning wars between nations. Witches. Monsters on the moon. It would be outright stupid in any other medium, so you start wondering if there's something you're missing. But no, it's really that simple. Just bad story telling.
Ultimecia turns herself into a monster, and Squall specifically says it's not a monster. If you think the first form of the end boss is literally, and not in a symbolic, abstract or hallucinatory sense, a lion, then you need to seek psychiatric help.
>It's nothing symbolic or abstract or hallucinatory
Lions are literally a mythical creatures in the FFVIII universe that's symbolizes noble strength and ferocity.
It's true that the 3D FF games, at least prior to the end of Square, all have plot twists and hidden meanings, where something appears to be one way and then is shown later to not be the case at all, and some things are intentionally not shown/told bu left up to the player to figure out.
I didn't know he was a wrestler.
>he thinks the battle is abstract and hallucinatory
Wow, you really went and humilated yourself in this thread. Now everyone laughs at you.
Yes but the battle is real, she physically becomes part of Griever.
>"No u"
The absolute state of 8fags
You can say the exact same thing for any of the other FF games. Just switch out words in your post.
>he thinks this is literally a lion
This is not a lion. This is a monster. Squall says, when asked, that Griever is not a monster, it's a lion.
There's no doubt that Ultimecia has perverted the thoughts and fears of Squall and co., either in attempt to intimidate them or as a direct result of using Ellone's powers to compress time.
The game > your opinion
Kitase found "Squall is dead" more interesting than this fringe theory, and that's saying a lot considering it's literally "it was all a dream" drivel
FF8 is deep and meaningful
This is not a dragon. It's a monster.
Say what you want
But, FFVIII has the best music of all the games
>specifically mention that your memento represents the strength and courage of an animal
>rinoa thinks those are admirable qualities and wishes to possess them too
>NO THE FIGHT AGAINST THIS MONSTER MEANS SHE'S RINOA
I haven't played FF8, but from everything I've read you're actually strongest compared to enemies at low levels.
Squall is one of the better protagonists in the franchise though
Lynched
> t. seething FF8 hater
FF8 is fine, it's retards I despise
I'll allow you your own interpretation but stop trying to cram it down everyone else's throat. The worst gay slash fanfiction is better than R=U
Sucks for you that it's all in the game and can never be removed from it, and was all there looooong before you began calling it a "theory".
>The worst gay slash fanfiction
Is it time
This is not a train. It's a monster.* When you summon it, everyone in the party as well as the enemy is hallucinating and the battle is abstract and mental.
* (who cares that it says train in the name and looks like one).
>the game cannot be removed from the game
No shit? Just like your autism and self-deception cannot be removed from you. The things you're interpreting as "facts" are at best extremely weak coincidences.
The point is that Griever is a lion to Squall. The thing that Ultimecia becomes is not Squall's Griever. It's a perverted version of it because Ultimecia is fucking with them, creating "fantasy beyond their imagination"
>No shit?
So you admit it.
What you call "coincidences" are example of implicit storytelling. I doubt you'd grasp much of first four Silent Hill games. I'm guessing you're American.
Wwe know exactly what lions are supposed to look like in FFVIII. And griever (gf) and ultimecia griever resemble but do not look completely like a lion because they were formed from the idea of lions.
We are entering next level coping with this dead theory.
I don't need to prove shit, you just have horrible taste.
It's the best FF along with FFX.
What did they mean by this?
>The worst gay slash fanfiction is better than R=U
woah there, that's a big statement...
>What you call "coincidences" are example of implicit storytelling. I doubt you'd grasp much of first four Silent Hill games. I'm guessing you're American.
Somewhere, there's a Squall is Dead fag saying exactly the same thing. Do you not see the problem? Your evidence is weak and not compelling. The fact that you've drawn from it conclusively is evidence only of your flimsy mental fortitude and tendency to revel in childish plot mechanics that ordinary adults would disdain.
>the nationality card
God you're such a child.
That's your personal headcanon. You can believe that, but it doesn't correspond with the game. The game > your opinions. The creature is named Griever (for a reason, mind you). Looks like lion, has a "lion" face etc. It's not any less a lion, than Leviathan is a serpent and Bahamut is a dragon and Doomtrain a train. It's not real-world creatures we're dealing with her. It's fantasy animals.
>she got nipples
How dont I remember that shit
Clearly Rinoa is dead and the game is too deep for you if you don't agree with me.
Director opinions are meaningless, only my opinion is canon.
But Squall says it's not monster. Ultimecia has become a monster. Stop confusing your own opinion for the game. You seriously have autism, Jesus Christ.
>But the story actually makes more sense than ff7
The main villain of FFVIII is a witch from the future who's ridiculed for having been defeated by SeeD when she time traveled to the past
So her master plan is to go back to the past to defeat very same SeeD members that defeated her in that very same past
Almost every party member grew up in the same orphanage, raised by the woman the main villain just so happens to have possessed
All of them except one guy loses their memories of this incredible coincidence, and we're never ever given a concrete answer
They muse that MAYBE Guardian Forces MIGHT take up space in your brain and it's POSSIBLE that it somehow deleted their memories, but whether that's true, or why it deleted the SAME memories from everyone, is completely untouched
FFVIII is incomprehensible drivel, a narrative so mired in asspulls and plot holes it's a miracle it wasn't laughed out of development.
Conclusive proof that Rinoa is dead.
Game > you, the end. /thread
>It's the best FF along with FFX.
>FFX
Americans tend to have a very difficult time with implicit storytelling, regardless of the medium.
The difference between the dead Squall shit is that it was invented as a forced meme a few years ago, while people have figured out Rinoa became Ultimecia in the unseen timeline since 1999, long before anyone called that a theory or even debated it, it was simply part of the game experience.
The dead Squall shit at this point is just a disinfo campaign, to ridicule any discussion on antyining FF8 related. Similar to flat earth bullshit being used to muddy the waters and create confusion whenever any alternative cosmology is discussed (such as the Electric Universe).
Never played FF8 but Spoony's review ruined it for me. Not sure if I should pick up the remaster or not.
>But Squall says it's not monster.
Yes, exactly. It's a lion. You finally agree with me. Cool.
>jesus
Well, seems I was right about where you're from.
>have to make shit up and taking lines of dialogue out of context to make my fan theory work
>it's implicit story telling
Wew.
Connecting some weak coincidences and drawing a faulty conclusion is not you picking up on something implicit. It's you seeing something that isn't there. You really need to recognize this or you're going to have a difficult life, especially when you start insulting other people if they don't see eye to eye with your delusion.
Play the original PSX version.
It's pretty bad both in gameplay and plot so i'd recommend avoiding it unless you like tormenting yourself
>he feels insulted on an anonymous basket weaving website
In fairness, I didn't mean to say the director's opinion is meaningless and I never said my opinion is canon.
Merely that a person experiencing something need not defer to the creator for their own opinion or interpretation of it, but should make up their own mind as free of external influences as possible. Or, at least have the option to do so along with subscribing to the creator's opinion.
Squall says Griever is NOT a monster. Ultimecia becomes a monster. Ergo these are not the same entity. Squall's Griever is a lion. Ultimecia's summon is a perversion of that, because she's an evil fucking witch who is trying to intimidate them.
The people who are sooo upset about the idea of Rinoa becoming Ultimecia and moan about it on and on while at the same time bitching about how much they despise the game are truly hilarious and sad at the same time. Don't these guys have anything better to do with their time?
>actual human shaped models instead of that FFVII chibi shit
>easily customizable characters via junction system, so instead of being limited to classes every character can assume whatever role you want in battle
>spells works like ammo and can be used in junction, giving them way more importance than they ever had before
>deep story that goes from simple civil war between regions to higher beings manipulating time to achieve power
>realistic written characters instead of your usual "perfect hero perfectly saves the day everytime" overdone trope
>plot twists that are still discussed to this day
>arguably the best card minigame in any jrpg ever
>beautifully composed soundtrack
>enemies level with you so always a challenge
I could go on about how FFVIII is the best but theres a post limit.
>I never said my opinion is canon.
Yours is not the norm here, where it seems most R=Ufags are actively weaponizing their opinion against any who won't swallow it whole
don't you have anything better to do than argue with them? get some self-awareness, faggot.
And yet here you are
FF8 is a pleb filter, watch out bro, if you're from reddit you better not play it. Anyway avoid the remaster bc its got an endless list of problems
Or it's just made up like the Squall is dead meme:
>“No, that is not true,” Kitase said. “I don’t think I’ll incorporate that even if we do remake the game. But that being said, both Rinoa and Ultimecia are witches, so in that sense they are similar, but they’re not the same person.”
Just came in here and scrolled through the thread. So often see the same posts.
You misunderstood my post. I am not one of them.
Squall IS dead.
None of you motherfuckers ever want to debate it. You just start shit flinging. I would LOVE to hear some opposing arguments but you never, EVER have them.
Yeah I had no idea this theory was as popular as it or people believed in it so strongly, lol.
I think it's fun and like it but no reason to think it's obvious or should be adopted as standard.
>while at the same time bitching about how much they despise the game
What makes you think they are the same people?
Making a ridiculous plot twist out of thin air just to defend bad writing isn't a good tactic, at any rate, if that's why this is so important to you. It makes the story worse, not better. The only thing worse than Ultimecia's extremely late introduction to the plot would be her secretly being another character despite how much that would completely decimate the ending.
>obsessed about kitase
This seems unhealthy.
I'm gonna break it down for you poofs.
>silly, over the top story
>has deep lore that people still discuss to this day
>lore doesn't need to be known to have fun with the story
>characters are all unique
>focuses on character interactions over backstory and history
>amazing atmosphere, subverting the usual cyber and steam punk themes
>deep junction system
>junction system can be used to make the game easier or harder depending on how you play
>awesome clean sci-fi elements with a hint of fantasy mixed in
>best card game
>lame chocobos
Don't mind me, just playing God over here.
I agree with all of this
Plus best music
>Just came in here and scrolled through the thread
same. doesn't make either of us any less pathetic than anyone else that's been posting in it already.
It's mentally bankrupt. You may as well say it was all a dream. The whole game. There's no evidence refuting it, so it could be true. It could be Cloud's dream. Yes, Cloud, from FF7. I mean, why not? Because it's not interesting, it's superfluous and juvenile.
A story should be kept as simple as possible with integral parts that work in conjunction with others. Layered story telling is the antithesis of this. Imagine Squall and friends died at the end and it continued telling someone else's fight against Ultimecia, creating a completely new second half to the story. The first half becomes irrelevant since all of those characters died off. See what I mean? It's typical in serial writing though because writers have to quite literally make things up as they go
Three and eight are connected. But I'm sure this will get people frothing with anger saying it's just a delusional coincidence etc because it's never explicitly mentioned in the game.
You must have really hated Jacob's Ladder.
Imagine being emotionally attached to an "interpretation" of a story that would get you a D- in middle school essay for years, having that "interpretation" get dunked on by the creators, and now be SO attached to it that you insist that it still must be true on an anonymous chinese basket weaving forum.
I had no intention of arguing I just wanted to bait a dumb whiner to reply.
That's a common mistake. It's actually a nightmare Zell is having after eating too many spoiled hotdogs,
>A story should be kept as simple as possible
Why?
>There's no evidence refuting it
Theres no evidence refuting how retarded you are as well.
>A story should be kept as simple as possible
Retard alert
FFVIII's story is pure garbage but it sure as shit ain't 'cause it's complicated
Bet you'd watch something like Synecdoche, New York and have an aneurysm
>>awesome clean sci-fi elements with a hint of fantasy mixed in
This what other game has the utopic sci-fi setting?
It's not as obvious a connection as that between 4 and 9 though.
Don't call me a poof you fucking bender.
Yet you cannot deny my points. ahah!
Many of the greatest stories whether movies or books or games have complicated, intricate, layed stories. Historically, one of the greatest stories ever written, the Mahabharata, is anything but simple.
You're forgetting 7 and nine and the symbolism between them.
>it's Australia time already
Welp, time to call it a night. Good night you cunt.
But Synecdoche's story is simple. Its meaning is complex.
...that being said, the Squall dying theory is retarded. But so are you for writing that. You make yourself look like a simpleton.
Night mate, have a good one.
WHen you see a switch
KANTOOOOOOOOOOO
Not him, but the new one was fucking terrible.
There are ways to tell a complex story that doesn't have irrelevant story archs. That's what I meant to say, not that stories should be braindead.
Synecdoche, NY is an interesting take on the role of art in life and vice versa, each becoming a simulacrum within the macro and the roles easily reversing. It's a perfect example of a story that's simple (really it's just about a writer's life) yet told in a complex way without needless filler or "And then suddenly, all of that other shit was irrelevant" plot twists.
Just admit you lost already jesus christ.
>poo in loo likes ff8
ICONIC
Quiet. Adults are talking.
...lost what? We're having a discussion. If this is a pissing contest, I already lost because I didn't know we were having one
>layers of symbolism and theming that tie directly into the narrative
>the narrative itself layers fiction and reality multiple times over in looping scenarios and actors playing actors playing people playing actors playing people
>simple
Great argument, almost as cohesive as R=U
Not indian, I know about it from the Mah'habara Subterra in 13. And I haven't read it, just know it's considered to be great.
>We're having a discussion
No, we HAD a discussion. Your points are benign. You can trot off to whatever shithole thread you take pleasure in and stay there now.
I've received no real replies to my take on Synedoche so I'll assume you have the same interpretation.
It's funny I knew as I wrote "it should be kept simple" that it would be construed as the perspective of a simpleton because it's such a low hanging fruit argument to make
>I knew as I wrote "it should be kept simple" that it would be construed
Then why would you write it that way instead of making a more easily-understood and cogent argument
Unless you're just damage controlling after talking out of your ass
But we all know that doesn't happen on Yea Forums
You assumed wrong.
What happens when you assume, little boy? you make an ASS out of U and ME. Now hop along, boy. The discussion was finished the moment you made that, quite frankly, retarded post.
>retards hate FFVIII because they are literally too brainlet to understand the plot AND the junction system
To all the guys here who hate FF8 but like FF7, I'm curious about something... This. If we were discussing the hidden plot elements and symbolism and so on in 7, would you be equally upset and angry? Somehow I doubt it.
>a more easily-understood
Because this is what I was doing, trying to write something more comprehensible by those in this thread, particularly the R=U type.
You can do more with less. More characters, more plot twists, more story arches, all do not correlate to a better story, they typically just contrive and compensate for what was never there. I don't know how to convey this idea in a concise manner that won't be tl;dr because it's actually relatively complex itself. But just "simple" and "complex" boil the problem down to be much simpler than it really is
What the fuck did you say you little shit? I'm a navy seal. You would't say that to my face you goddamnidiot.
>The discussion was finished the moment you made that, quite frankly, retarded post.
Likewise
talking about the deep themes of ff8 is like talking about the deep themes of my little pony, it's retarded
If you compare it to say, Bayonetta, there's definitely deeper themes in FF8 than most other games. So it's all relative. If you compare it to books or something, obviously video games fall short. But why would you do that.
>debunked fan theories that even the director finds insipid
>hidden plot elements
>Ultimecia becomes a monster
She becomes part of Griever, which is a lion. Squall says it is.
youtube.com
>"Ultimecia doesn't actually summon Griever. That Griever we see isn't actually Griever. And neither is it physically there. It's some sort of hallucination to scare off her enemies."
Your imaginary headcanon is your imaginary headcanon. Write a fanfic about it.
Why do you assume everyone dismissing fringe "interpretations" hates FF8?
You can't answer the question? What about 7?
>everyone I don't like is a samefag
Mind as empty as squall's dead face.
R=U would have possibly made it the greatest FF Story. Of course that would make some other changes necessary.
Plus I will never stop suspecting that they might have planned it at some point.
That's not what I said. Ultimecia does not summon the Griever which Squall talks about to Rinoa because Squall says that Griever is not a monster, which the one Ultimecia summons clearly is. Furthermore he's talking about his ring (which is then displayed as his necklace to the player), which is CLEARLY a lion, not a crazy woman/monster hibrid that happens to bear a vaguely lion-ish head.
I'm not saying it's a hallucination, just that Ultimecia is a witch, she can clearly read their thoughts, and her calling "Griever" is no indication of anything but that. It's why the castle is what it is, it's why "In the garden sleeps a messenger" is there, because past present and future have aligned and this reality was formed as a direct result of Ellone's powers, and they all grew up together.
All of this so that "Maybe I"m a lion", as an OST TRACK NAME, is somehow evidence? LOL? What about the fact that "man with a machine gun" involves PLAYING AS Laguna, not fighting him? Maybe "Maybe I"m a lion" IS about Rinoa, because she's in your fucking party and you're standing up to pure evil? Are you really this braindead?
No, pretty sure you're different people. But you sure do all act like drones in unison on auto-pilot. You're terribly upset about any 8 discussion, but discussion about 7 you wouldn't mind. Your problem isn't what's being discussed in 8 threads, it's 8 itself. You simply hate the game, that's all it's about for you at the end of the day and you know and we all know it.
>we
there's only one ESL ff8fag
I don't like 7 that much. I have my own theory about 7 that holy/the lifestream absorbs people as a threat to the planet, which I think was canon until the need for sequels came about, for purely financial reasons.
Now answer my question? Why do you assume everyone who dislikes your fan theory hates the game itself?
>Ultimecia does not summon the Griever which Squall talks about
She does.
>Furthermore he's talking about his ring
Exactly. Hence why she even can summon it, as she has the ring.
>R=U would have possibly made it the greatest FF Story
If you're 12, and are easily amused by asspull ZOMGTWEESTs, sure.
I never played 8 past an hour or two of not enjoying it.
I always wanted to know what's happening here. Pls tldr for me.
looks like tranny ass getting broken in by bbc in the thumbnail
Keep seething, idiot.
Griever alone would have been kino that way.
>She does.
Nah, her summon is a monster. Squall says Griever is specifically not a monster. You cannot get around this, it's a huge hole in your theory. Why say what is clearly a monster that any sane person would call as a monster, "Not a monster"? It's not like he just said "It's a lion", He said "It's NOT A MONSTER, it's a lion". This is specific to a T.
>Exactly. Hence why she even can summon it, as she has the ring.
What the fuck are you even talking about? At what point was the player able to summon Griever because they had the ring?
No one is upset about discussing hidden plot points or symbolism. People are just calling the made-up fan theories exactly what they are: made up.
Now to answer your question, if people were seriously discussing how the plot of FF7 was really a dream Cloud was having while he was passing away after he was mortally wounded in the reactor explosion, or that Aeris is really Sephiroth and that every thing that happens in the game is just her secretly masterminding to unleash Holy and wipe out all existence on the planet or any other contrived, made-up hypothetical bullshit than yeah, people would be annoyed.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove. No matter how many times you repeat it, you considering the summon a monster is just that. Your personal belief. What is objective is that
>Squall calls Griever a lion
>Her summon is called Griever
All you're doing is saying
>I choose to think it's a monster
Which you're free to do, but that's meaningless.
>OPEN UP WHITE BOY!
I like FFVIII, I just find people doing their best to find legitimacy in R=U insufferable. It's not a discussion of "hidden plot elements", it's retards desperately arguing for something that's not there and people telling them to stop being faggots and to let the dead "theory" go.
>Squall calls Griever a lion
And not a monster. He's talking about his ring which persumably has the same head as his necklace, which is nothing more than a lion's head. Griever, to squall, is a lion.
>Her summon is called Griever
And a monster. A woman bound into a purpleish freak with exposed ribcage, headwings, nonretractable claws the size of its head and multi-species anatomy (last I checked lions do not have exoskeletal tails)
>I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove
That even evidence as weak as "these song titles clearly prove it" is so ridiculously easy to refute because it's all based on a 12 year old's delusional fantasy, or at least someone as mentally depraved as one
You must be an absolute moron if you can't see how people would start believing that it was at least a planned thing with
>I want the present to stand still.
>Griever
>faces switching between Rinoa and Ultimecia
I mean, how many JRPGs that try to tell a serious story have a giant, ugly frog monster in the school basement?
Griever is not a monster you smooth brain. It is a GF formed out of Squall's ideals, its stronger the more strength Squall attributes to it. Ultimecia says this point blank that Griever is your idealized version of the most powerful GF in existence.
But this is what Squall's lion, Griever, looks like. This isn't what Ultimecia summons, this isn't what Ultimecia looks like when she junctions herself to her GF.
Not sure what you're referring to with "fan theory" as I see no discussion here about any such thing. And not sure what you in particular really think, but many of you guys who attack discussion about symbolism etc in 8 also hate the game. It's totally obvious for everyone to see.
To you guys: You're pretty dense if you don't think people notice it.
You have your opinion set already, and you keep bashing 8 and meme about it, because you enjoy it. You don't want /that/ to be taken away from you. So any pro-FF8 posts which to you appear to strengthen the game's plot, or which give praise of any aspects of the game's story, etc, or really at the end of the day /any/ sort of posts discussing any symbolism or meaning to /any/ part of the story - those are posts you feel you must attack. And so you do.
And some of you openly admit it, in threads just like this, that the only reason you get upset when people discuss 8's as in this thread, it's because you don't want to admit 8 is well written or has good characters or a good story. But most people see right through you anyway. It's not like you need to admit it.
I like FF8 and think the R=U fan theory (formerly, now we can call it a debunked theory) made the story sound excessively juvenile, which is why I dislike it. It's the type of twist that's based on nothing but a few superficial coincidences, aka an asspull or a shyamalan. It takes a total retard to find deep, and you make other FF8 fans look bad. I resent being associated with people as stupid as you.
R=U is as delusional and stupid as FF8 bashing m8. I don't know what the fuck you're on about but it smells like autism. I will give you credit, at least you don't parrot a brain dead review by a depressive freak.
Looks VERY similar. Fix your eyes?
Pic relalated IS Griever. How can this be so difficult to grasp? And this is what she joins together with.
(The joining together of course alters the appearance in some ways, but it's still Griever. If you want to say that it suddenly stops being Griever, just because it changes appearance, then you can also say Sephiroth isn't Sephiroth after he goes through transformations, or that any other character or enemy in any of the games, who has a transformation, stops being that character after they transform, now that would be stupid)
I understand that you personally decided to classify the summon as a "monster," I'm saying that such a classification is meaningless. You're free to call it what ever you want. What can actually be pointed to in the game is that
>Squall calls Griever a lion
>Her summon is called Griever
Without that theory FF8's story is meaningless with no emotional weight or reason to its central conflict.
imagine being this fucking deluded.
It's funny you learn the difference between the objective and subjective when it's someone else's opinion on the line.
The fact of the matter is that Ultimecia's Griever does not look like Squall's Griever, at all. Ultimecia's griever is anthropomorphic, where's Squall's is more like an actual lion with some flair: No matter how you boil it, they're not the same creature. Rinoa would know what Squall's Griever looks like.
>Without that theory FF8's story is meaningless
And therein lies your problem. I fucking called it. You're trying to reconcile what YOU PERCEIVE as bad writing and making it better with your own headcanon. Go right fucking ahead, but stop trying to force it on everyone.
Nigga You are arguing against what the game tells you. Ultimecia says that this summon is what Squall imagines Griever to be. That is how Squall sees it. We don't disagree with you, the fucking game itself does.
There's GF commands to Level Up and Level Down enemies though if you need to loot lower level enemies for stuff.
Why not? That's what theories are for. Forcing on other people. Germ theory of disease exists, bra, you're takin that damn vaccine!
>Ultimecia says that this summon is what Squall imagines Griever to be.
Maybe when he was afraid as a child? The ring has a different image on it, and it's the ring that Rinoa is talking about. Have you forgotten what your argument even is? You're trying to tie that scene with Rinoa talking about the ring, when clearly Ultimecia is manipulating Squall's actual thoughts about it, even more the evidence she can read their minds.
>I want to present to stand still
Except this is before Squall completes his arc and realizes that he shouldn't fear the future. A villain that wants what the mc also fantasized about, but the mc realizing he was wrong and defeating the villain shows he grew as a character.
>Griever
Taken from his mind. Ultimecia was constantly toying with the party in Disc 4, and literally says she'll banish them in an alternate dimension where they'll be slaves to her because she hates them so much. Making her drawing the concept of the most powerful mythical creature from Squall is a big dick intimidation move, but Squall beating it shows that he moved forward. His fucking theme is "Maybe I'll become a lion", that's his jam and why he's carrying around lion paraphernalia in the first place.
>face switching Ultimecia and Rinoa
Is not concrete at all, and people stretching it to serve as evidence. You can argue more thoroughly that it was part of the mind fuck they went threw, or it was showing that Rinoa was going to be possessed just like Edea.
>it was planned but they didn't do it
Nope.
My first post here was
all I'm contending is that
>That Griever is not a lion but a monster
is a meaningless claim.
>Why not?
It's so bad. You probably liked the 6th Sense too, didn't you? Talk about a worthless fucking movie that idiots loved because of a fucking asspull.
The antiR=U faction is really intense about their disapproval, like they find it an insult to their dead parents or something
I don't know what this retarded argument is about, but Ultimecia ripping Squall's furry OC from his mind just to fuck with him is the funniest thing in VIII.
I don't agree, but it's not really important since it isn't a claim, it's evidence that what Ultimecia summons is not a lion. "Maybe I'm a lion" being the name of a track is symbolic of Squall and co. facing their fears, being strong like a lion, not being afraid to rely on each other. Not "Rinoa turning into griever"
I am so very tired of this. I know I'm never going to convince you you're retarded so I'm going to stop now. You win, have fun.
That's not true at all. When I played through the game the first time I didn't get it, but still enjoyed the story immensely. The game is written so the story works without knowing every single detail, just like most of the other installments in the series.
BUT you're right in the sense that due to the fact that what you refer to as "that theory" does explain the story fully and ties everything together while making perfect sense, it's definitley one of the reasons haters of FF8 get so emotional about it. And we mustn't forget, many of these haters haven't even played through the game to completion even once.
That's great. All I ever said in this reply chain is that
>This specific summon named Griever is a monster
Is an unsupported assertion
>It's so bad.
Not worse than a game with no meaning.
>You probably liked the 6th Sense too, didn't you?
No.
Apples and oranges anyway as R=U isn't a tWEEST because it's never 'revealed' explicitly
Of course they look similar. Ultimecia literally used magic to rip the idea from Squall's mind and make him fight it. Squall idealizes lions. She wants to torment Squall and play mind games with him. She explicitly states this she wants to fuck with them for eternity in time compression.
The story is explained fully at the very end when Ultimecia transfers her powers to Edea. You can fill in the rest from there, that Cid and Edea go their separate ways to fulfill the time loop and kill Ultimecia before she can destroy everything. Edea loses her memories as Ultimecia grasps for more and more control, Cid creates Gardens, the main cast lose their earlier and earlier memories as they use GFs more and more. It's a perfectly contained plot. All R=U does is complicate the plot so children can have their juvenile fantasies fulfilled.
>ulti takes stuff from peoples minds and manifests it into reality
Where does this fanficy headcanon originate from?
The actual Japanese text, the translation leaves it vague how Ultimecia got Griever just saying the thing is the most powerful GF.
>us
Personally don’t give a shit about ff8, but fight your own battles
>what the game actually says is "fanficy headgun"
OH NO NO NO
Ah, so you're the hipster who likes it because you're a contrarian and like to believe something no one else does, therein lying its sole value. Gotcha.
Not sure how you got that out of that post. I like it because FF8's story is void of emotional connection to the main conflict without it. It's you vs some sorceress from the future.
>The anti-Santa Clause/Easter Bunny faction is really intense about their disapproval, like they find it an insult to their dead parents or something
Congratulations. You've made the first step to acceptance. I'm going to let you in on a little secret since you've made this much progress life is meaningless too
Err, it's Rinoa who says that Also I know the official explanation for Griever. What a lot of people are saying that it's weak garbage compared to the idea that it's actually the entity Squall/we ourselves gave a name to such a long time ago and Rinoa/Ulti forever held onto it.
Okay! Gather 'round, minna-san. Deep Lore Time! Yes, not everyone here will appreicate this and that's fine. Whatever.
Alright, here we go:
One crucial aspect of understanding FF8 is to remember that whenever there's time travel going on in any story, we have multiple timelines. In FF8 there's one timeline we never see the events of, a timeline where events happened differently. Similar to how in DBZ there's a timeline which leads to Trunk's future. The unseen timeline which lead to Ultimecia's future; the Castle Timeline. That castle must be at least several hundred years into the future: it's implied Ultimecia is far into the future, Squall says the SeeDs there have been fighting across generations, and considering how physically changed the surrounding area (the beach) looks and how aged the castle looks, it's illogical to assume it has only been 100 years or less. It must be many hundreds of years into the future, but possibly over 1000.
In that timeline, Squall either died of old age or he was killed by other SeeDs while protecting Rinoa.
The "Ultimecia" character is partly based on Artemisia II: en.wikipedia.org
"Artemisia is renowned in history for her extraordinary grief at the death of her husband (and brother) Mausolus."
>grief
Rinoa in that timeline lost Squall. Rinoa and Ultimecia have "Griever" -- in her future, she is carrying her grief.
Artemisia was royalty; she became queen. Rinoa is referred to as a "princess" several times in the game.
Artemisia and Mausolus were siblings. Rinoa and Squall are ALMOST siblings on the paternal side, because of the events which happened between Julia, Caraway, and Laguna. Squall and Rinoa's relationship is as close to incesteous as possible without them actually being blood related. They are so "close" by past events, that when you play through the game the first time it's even possible to get confused into believing they have the same fathers.
[CONTINUED IN NEXT POST...]
You just said you like it because it's not revealed.
How does Rinoa being the villain from another timeline which you avert cause any emotional connection? You're either connected to the characters or you aren't. I've never had to kill my alternate timeline witch-gf, maybe you have? FF8's story is about growing up: accepting responsibility, not running from your fears and learning to accept the help of others without growing to depend on them. To a much lesser degree it's about falling in love, but these are all things that offer potential emotional connections, probably most so for the target audience of the 13-19 year old teenager.
[CONTINUED HERE!]
Furthermore, Artemisia built this after her husband's (and brother's) death, in honor to him: en.wikipedia.org
That was a HUGE building. Similarly, the Castle in FF8 is very large and Ultimecia must have had it constructed -- there was no castle there before. Also, Squall uses lions as a symbol for himself, and the mausoleum was adorned with many lions - and not only that; the picture shown here is the tetradrachm of Mausolus himself!
Also worth mentioning is this:
The name "Artemisia" is written in Japanese as アルティミシア and is read as "Arutimishia". This can be translated back into both Artemisia and Ultimecia, but considering all the connections to Artemisia II of Caria, it's more logical and makes more sense to translate アルティミシア back to Artemisia. In fact, in the German AND Italian versions of FF8, she is called Artemisia. And in the Spanish version, she is called Artemisa.
>The concept that a story I cherish could just be poorly written is so traumatizing to me I have to delude myself with fantasies so as not to shatter my delicate concept of meaning and reality.
Shit nigga, sounds like you're living your own fan theory.
German here. Can confirm.
Screencapped and saved.
>Hey, Kitase, did you niggas mean that Rinoa is Ultimecia the whole time?
>nah bruv, that shit's dumb. squall ain't dead either, but at least that one is more interesting
Was he actually dead the entire time?
>You just said you like it because it's not revealed.
No, I said it isn't a TWEEST because it's not revealed. Thus 6th Sense is apples and R=U is oranges, so it doesn't really make sense to compare them. Just because I don't like 6th sense doesn't mean I would like it if it went an orange route and only hinted that Willis was a ghost
>How does Rinoa being the villain from another timeline which you avert cause any emotional connection?
Because she's a character you care about and not Ultimecia
>You're either connected to the characters or you aren't.
I'm connected to Rinoa, but not Ultimecia. We can fix that by making Ultimecia Rinoa
>FF8's story is about growing up: accepting responsibility, not running from your fears and learning to accept the help of others without growing to depend on them
Those are the boilerplate themes that so many movies, tv and vidya are about. Gonna need more than that to really make me like a game's plot
>>The concept that a story I cherish could just be poorly written is so traumatizing to me I have to delude myself with fantasies so as not to shatter my delicate concept of meaning and reality.
Not sure where you got the idea I "cherish" FF8's story unless you're confusing me with a different user
Pants on head retarded. They're not the same person. There is absolutely nothing to indicate memory loss affecting Sorceress, as para-magic and GF use is literally based on their powers in the first place, and Ultimecia's first interaction with Rinoa as Edea is her serving her up as a sacrifice to be killed after the ceremony in Deling City.
Try again.
I have no face.
I wrote my senior thesis on the Hecatomnids.
Did not expect to see them coming up in a Yea Forums thread any time soon lol
I appreciate your dedication, user
right on the money
why tho? the guys who made the story literally said they aren't the same person.
Is Ultimecia literally the biggest "why didn't you do this" non plot twist ever? It is actually wasted potential for her NOT to be Rinoa, it makes LESS SENSE that she isn't her
What if Kitase simply doesn't know any better
Just a producer afaik, not a director or writer
>The guy that created the plot of the game doesn't know what he intended to happen
Yes, you got it. That's what people have been saying for 20 years.
Ultimecia has around 25 lines of dialog throughout the game in all her forms. She never hints at any connection to any of the characters in the game, and in fact, her secondary purpose in Squall's time is to find out why SeeD is after her in the first place. In her Deling speech, she states that she has been feared and hunted for "generations," suggesting full recollection of her life.
In the Ultimania, it is stated that her actions are solely driven by a desire to survive. Furthermore, Squall is the link that creates SeeD in the first place. If he isn't in her timeline, there is no SeeD. No SeeD, no Ultimecia as we know her. Inherently retarded theory.
All I have heard about is that Kitase quote. Has Nojima said anything? Even if Nojima gave a similar response to Kitase I don't think many people would be bothered. I certainly wouldn't.
>in contrast to her
FF7R devs will confirm that aerith also survives the stab to the chest though.
Kitase was the director of the game, and is credited as a writer. He literally created the plot and then gave the job of hashing out the rest to Nojima.
>THE DESTROYER HAS BEEN CHOSEN
That's even more retarded.
>the director of the game, head story writer, system designer, event scene direction
>lol, what does he know? he doesn't know better
webcitation.org
The desperation is palpable.
Nope, see:
There is absolutely zero logic backing up this theory, and anyone saying otherwise provably failed to understand FF8, just like the Squall's Dead fags.
That's equating someone denying reality with an alternate theory.
FFVIII is creative fiction and therefore there's is only interpretation. It'd be a cold world if no one ever thought outside the box of the established narrative regarding a piece of artwork.
There will never be any definitive way to play FF8. We are all doomed.
There will never be any definitive way to play FF8. All is fire.
Original version on PSP
I'm talking thematically. From a legitimate theme perspective it makes no sense for Rinoa not to be Ultimecia. I don't care if the writers panicked, dropped the ball, and then hastily wrote out Ultimecia as being an alt timeline Rinoa, I care that the story is weaker without this twist. The story is literally ABOUT THE DANGERS OF POSSESSIVE LOVE, how is not having the main antagonist be a yandere evil version of the main love thematically strong?
The Ultimania containing information by the actual writers flat out state that she Draws what Squall perceives to be the ultimate Guardian Force from his mind. The Griever motif has nothing to do with Ultimecia.
>Tiny screen
So Tiny! A video game for ants!
You're attempting to meme Kitase into having more responsibility than he had.
First of all ideas for the story and the characters came from several people, not just one or two guys. It was a collaborative effort. That said, Nojima was much more directly involved with the story and the creation of the characters than Kitase. Nojima on the plot structure and many details relating to both the story and the characters, and he had the final say in much of that. He also wrote the dialogue.
>denying reality
This is exactly what you fan theorists are doing. Kitase has told you the reality of the situation and you still refuse to accept it.
You didn't write the story. You do not own it. You have absolutely zero tangible connection to it. You have no power or authority to rewrite it just because you didn't like what the actual writer came up with, and you especially do not have the power or authority to force other people into swallowing your delusions.
>You didn't write the story. You do not own it. You have absolutely zero tangible connection to it. You have no power or authority to rewrite it just because you didn't like what the actual writer came up with, and you especially do not have the power or authority to force other people into swallowing your delusions.
Not him but actually en.wikipedia.org
>In essence, the meaning of a text is not inherent within the text itself, but is created within the relationship between the text and the reader.
Trolled by literary criticism ;)
This is a actually good choice. PC version with mods is horrible. Another good choice is via emulator but don't stretch the image to fullscreen. That way the pixels don't get too large.
Yeah but that's actually suitable as the resolutiuon of the game is only 320x224.
But our earnest desire is for the game to be perfectly upscaled to 1080p. That is the only way we can have a good version of the game suitable for 2019.
>Nojima on the plot
"Nojima worked on the plot structure and" ... I meant to write.
You can sit really close to a PSP and pretend it's 1080p.
Truly, Squall really was a Final Fantasy
That's not what reception theory means, user.
I could, but I'll always know it really looks like this
jesus i didnt know FF8's lore was this complex
>I don't care if the writers panicked, dropped the ball, and then hastily wrote out Ultimecia as being an alt timeline Rinoa, I care that the story is weaker without this twist.
It was never meant to be a twist. Any connection is of your own making. Nothing ties the two characters together aside from a misconception about Griever. People are trying to connect the dots because the story went over their heads.
>The story is literally ABOUT THE DANGERS OF POSSESSIVE LOVE
Not even close. That would only be the case if your theory was actually what the game was written around, which it's not.
But it sounds like your whole argument is that you have to kill your girlfriend to feel anything. If that's depth for you, then I don't know what to say. The story already has that element when Irvine freezes up because he can't assassinate his matron. That was pretty implicit, too, but you can trace it back because Edea is revealed to be Matron. There's nothing for the R=U theory except the fact they're both sorceresses and everything else is being drawn from coincidences arising from that.
Moreover FF8's story has closed time curve time travel. Ultimecia travels back to the past to start the logically consistent story by possessing Edea to begin with. But if Ultimecia's physical being is actually Rina then that breaks the loop because they averted that reality. It doesn't hold up the way the primary story does
I didn't write anything in green there user. Argue with wikipedia if you don't agree with
>In essence, the meaning of a text is not inherent within the text itself, but is created within the relationship between the text and the reader.
There a lot of stuff that was poorly done in terms of plot.
You could completely fix it by simply making Seifer the princess.
Who even comes up with this shit? Were they smoking DMT?
>the guy who wrote the story and was in charge of scene direction doesn't know whether or not the MAIN VILLAINESS is the MAIN HEROINE from the future
>the reality that the creators specifically say the main villain isn't the main heroine doesn't matter because I "feel" like my fanfic is true
What the actual fuck am I reading?
>There's nothing
>ignores the game itself and all its explicit storytelling and ignores all the supporting evidence anyone ever presents and pretends none of it exists
>thinks nobody notices
Which reality did they avert?
Nojima > Kitase
When it comes to 8's plot, story and characters.
>What the actual fuck am I reading?
Actual literary theory devised by academics. Now you have even more reason to hate them, Drumpfist.
And I'm saying that neither that quote from wikipedia or reception theory in general contradicts my post.
Lol where the fuck else would Ultimecia have gotten any concept of what Griever is. There is no evidence of Griever even being an actual entity until the last fight.
There is no evidence and no connection between the two characters. Ultimecia as we know her can't exist without Squall in any timeline. She's in her deranged state solely because she's been hunted by SeeD her entire life without any explanation. SeeD only exists because Squall is present at the orphanage and goes on to defeat Ultimecia. If Squall dies, there is no SeeD. There is no Ultimecia.
TL;DR: Dumb theory is dumb. How does it feel to not understand a game written for young teenagers?
The one where Rinoa becomes Ultimecia?
Oh, right. I think there's a disconnect going on.
I'm not saying that the R=U thing is the right interpretation or whatever and that you have to accept that. Some people might be saying that but I am not.
I'm simply stating that you can't do that to them either. If someone who experienced the story comes away thinking that Rinoa is Ultimecia, telling them that they are "wrong" is ultimately the same as them telling you that you are "wrong" if you don't believe it.
What the creator wants to get across to the audience is important, for sure, but not the end all be all to the meaning behind the work. It is ultimately for the viewer to decide how they feel and what they think about something.
If you played the game and knew nothing of what the creator thought or what the official statements were, the conclusion you came to about the story would be just as valid as someone who was aware of the what the creator thought.
If you view a painting and think that it is about loss or death or something but then the painter walks up and says "I made this is about bunnies and rainbows", does that mean you were wrong and must conform your thinking? No, of course not, it just means what the author meant was "bunnies and rainbows" but to you it means "death and loss".
And the guy who created Star Wars doesn't know Greedo never fired a shot at Han, and Akira Yamaoka when Homecoming was released didn't know two of the previous games did not begin in Silent Hill.
What's your point?
He literally only got hit in the shoulder, not through the chest like some retards think.
He basically got a piece of reber through the shoulder, not a girder through the sternum.
She's playing on their fears. I'm pretty sure she even says this. She's a fucking witch.
Here's a fun fact for you:
Laguna not returning to Winhill with Ellone is what starts the events of the game. Squall and Ellone are orphaned after Raine dies and sent to Edea's orphanage.
I see that timetravel and its consequences is hurting your head. Multiple timeslines is hard.
It does though, by reception theory, the audience creates the meaning of the text, not the author. Your beliefs are more in line with traditional pre-1960s literary criticism which did not value the reader as a creator and only valued the author.
The only part of your post that is correct is that we "do not have the power or authority to force other people into swallowing your delusions." but thats obvious otherwise you'd already believe our delusions.
The conditions of Ultimecia's existence does not allow for Squall not to be alive, obliterating your entire theory that Ultimecia is a grief struck Rinoa.
>How does it feel to not understand a game written for young teenagers?
Idk man, you tell me.
Funny you say that, because Kitase created the plot and Nomura the characters.
Not an argument. R=U is provably wrong. Anyone clinging to it CLEARLY did not understand the game.
Nope. Nomura just designed how they look. Nojima has said multiple times he wrote the story.
That was never explicitly spelled out as what they were trying to avert. They stopped Ultimecia from possessing present Rinoa, sure, but that is different from the mechanism by which Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in R=U theory, whereby she lives for hundreds of years past Squall and loses her memory and goes insane.
That's not how that works. You don't understand multiple timelines. Go watch some Dragonball to get a basic understanding.
Will Squall be alive 500 years in the future?
I don't give a shit about their feelings. The director has specifically said that it is wrong. Explicitly, without any doubt. It is "not true." Something is either true or not. There is no in between.
>What is a half truth
Bet you don't believe in half button presses either
>did not value the reader as a creator and only valued the author
that's because the audience is not a creator and is typically incredibly retarded. Bending over backwards to rationalize false beliefs about things instead of just facing what's directly in front of their face, which this thread has proven.
Seeing as how Nojima never said R=U, your goalpost moving still doesn't hold. We have the director of the game and story and scene direction (ie the guy who, even if he didn't write the minutia of the dialogue, would know all major plot points, themes, and motifs because he managing everyone else) clearly stating that R=/=U. He would know something as story/plot/theme changing as the main antagonist is the main heroine.
>reality no longer matters, only the feelings I get when I speed read through a video game do
>Something is either true or not. There is no in between.
Beware the realm of opinions
>indoctrination theory all over again
I played FF8 on release when I was like 15 and while I enjoyed the game I admit that I had no idea what was going on in the plot by around halfway though.
Any brave soul want to attempt to succinctly summarize all the whole plot of the game?
tfw no gf
>They stopped Ultimecia from possessing present Rinoa
Does this even make sense? If you're a powerful sorceress and compress time, should there even be older and younger versions of yourself?
>loses her memory and goes insane.
How should she remember Griever then if she's lost her memory? Does she not know she's Rinoa? Because Rinoa can be randomly attacked as one of the 3 she initiates battle with. What happens if she kills herself?
Never claimed Nojima did? Are you trying to create a strawman? I'm merely disputing your false elevation of Kitase to godlike status.
Nojima was in charge of the plot. Not Kitase.
Just installed the remaster to see how it looks and fuck, the better looking 3D models with the old PS1 backgrounds are too distracting.
Also is it just my pirated version or is the game lagging a bit when playing the CG cutscenes?
No, of course not. He died of old age or was killed by other SeeDs.
You are absolutely wrong. The three of them all exchanged emails together working on the story together. After Kitase came up with the initial plot, Nomura came in and worked on the characters and their background stories.
>"Middle: Tetsuya Nomura, character and monster designer, as well as battle system. He also wrote the background story of the characters."
>web.archive.org
The idea of it being set in a school was also originally pitched by Nomura, which Nojima agreed with.
Nojima is a scenario writer. Kitase created the story. Nojima is responsible for writing the actual dialogue, whereas Kitase dictated what happens in it. It's like, I tell you to draw a picture of a sad blonde girl, about 12 years old, wearing a dress, with tears in her eyes holding a dog. Maybe you can pick her eye and dress color, but it wasn't your idea because I told you what to do. You're just filling in the smaller details that I can't be assed with because my job is the bigger picture.
"Rinoa is Ultimecia" is absolutely a big picture plot point. It's not something Nojima would have decided.
Top kek
If we were talking about objective reality perhaps I could see an argument for that line of thinking but we're talking about art, a fantasy, a fictional creation that is already divorced from reality. To think there is only one possible line of thinking possible for artistic creations is simplistic, lazy and overall detrimental to the purpose of the endeavor.
You're telling me "I don't give a shit about their feelings", fair enough, that's totally fine. But, that's a feeling and why should they then care about your feelings?
Just to be clear, I'm not making an argument for reality or anything, if you say "Mao is Chinese" I'm not going to say "that's up to interpretation", but art is different. If the only voice that matters in art is the creator's than all discussion is kind of pointless
don't be obtuse, user. you're above this.
That's exactly how it works, and you very clearly don't understand the story in any capacity.
>ultimecia has been hunted by SeeD ever since she was identified as a sorceress, which is a few generations ago accord to Ultimecia herself as hinted at in her speech in Deling (check out the script on Gamefaqs), suggesting FULL recollection of her whole life
>she's gone insane and is solely driven by the desire to survive her fated death at the hands of SeeD, as stated in the ultimania and obvious in-game
>she spares squall specifically to find out why SeeD is hunting her
>she tries to have rinoa killed after rinoa fails to incapacitate her
>she has 25 lines of dialog total, none of which ever suggest any form of grief or connection to anyone outside of her time, only utter madness (feel free to scour the script and point these supposed R=U connections out to me in her dialog and actions)
>there is zero evidence of memory loss affecting sorceresses
>rinoa is among the people hunting and finally defeating her
There is no possible timeline where this theory makes any sense.
>Nojima was in charge of the plot. Not Kitase.
This is completely absolutely false. Kitase created the plot itself. Nojima was the scenario and script writer.
>If we were talking about objective reality
We are. There is an objective reality, and it's what Kitase has already told us.
>>reality no longer matters, only the feelings I get when I speed read through a video game do
Complain to the academics then bra
>Does this even make sense? If you're a powerful sorceress and compress time, should there even be older and younger versions of yourself?
Time never got to full compression or else the party would've lost
>How should she remember Griever then if she's lost her memory?
She doesn't, she pulls that shit out of Squall's brain
>Does she not know she's Rinoa?
No
>Because Rinoa can be randomly attacked as one of the 3 she initiates battle with. What happens if she kills herself?
FF8 is all about the nonsensical nature of this kind of time paradox. If a future Rinoa kills a past Rinoa, what happens? Just like the nonsensical nature of Ultimecia going back in time to give Edea her powers so Edea could create FF8's conflict so Ultimecia would be killed and thus have to give Edea her powers. Pime Taradox
Academia is only relevant within the confines of itself.
And thus Ultimecia can exist without Squall at some time in the future, as a grief stricken Rinoa weeping at his death
Nope, doesn't make any sense. Refer to: Do point out these connections in the script and tell me specifically which actions she takes that makes you think they're the same person, or why you think memory loss affects sorceresses.
Here you go:
gamefaqs.gamespot.com
Knock yourself out, and make a new thread when this one dies if you have to.
Because she killed him. And despite knowing this doesn't realize what's going on as she possesses Edea and literally tortures her friends and lovers. Makes perfect sense.
I don't know if R=Ufags are being ironic just trying to bait people into arguing with them. Any attempt at scrutiny and it rapidly falls apart
You're incorrect though. The plot was mainly Nojima's responsibility. Most of the ideas for the plot came from Nojima, with help from many others in the team.
See bove.
Also,
>implying I said Nomura had no input whatsoever or that they didn't collaborate
Never claimed that. In fact I said the opposite.
It makes no sense. She has her full memory and has inexplicably been hunted by SeeD for "generations," hence why she's nuts and why she spares Squall in the past to torture him and find out what SeeD's objective is.
>Lucas, known for changing canon every movie and changed greedo shooting first, to second to first
>and the music composer for tons of different video game series doesn't know names of the settings of two games in a long franchise
>therefore the major plot twist in my fan fiction actually happened in FFVIII
>you trying to strawman me
Why bring Nojima up at all if he never made a comment on this?
>false elevation of kitase to godlike status
No, I'm saying the creators of the fucking game said your fanfiction isn't real. For people who say that R=U is a deep and major game changer to the lore and story of FFVIII, you fags sure do love to downplay the impact it would have on development despite all the "obvious and indisputable" clues the writers left us. Kitase didn't write everything, sure, but you'd think there'd be memos, meetings, and collaboration to make everything fit together story, scene, and thematicall. You'd think someone would let the bossman know if changing the main heroine into the main villain was okay.
Your argument shifted from "This is impossible because x" to "there's not enough evidence that this happened"
>Knock yourself out, and make a new thread when this one dies if you have to.
Sorry little neet, I have to go to work tomorrow so I can't :^)
Because you guys keep saying Kitase was the one solely responsible for the plot and the creation of the characters, when in fact another guy had more responsibilty in that regards. You place all your hopes on Kitase and people buying into the picture you paint him in. Not a very bright idea.
Is FF8 the Hunter x Hunter of Final Fantasy?
Well they do bring up the problem with authors being authoritative. They can change their mind.
Just admit you hate the game.
>Your argument shifted from "This is impossible because x" to "there's not enough evidence that this happened"
Wrong. It IS impossible, and I AM asking for actual evidence to prove me wrong, which you can't produce, because, you know, it's an impossibility for this theory to be factual.
>Sorry little neet, I have to go to work tomorrow so I can't :^)
You may as well accept defeat at this point, ans you can easily find the 25 lines of dialog mentioned above by searching for "Ultimecia, Sorceress Edea" and so on.
>despite the obvious clues
They're intentionally written to not be obvious. They only become appartent after multiple playthrough.