DLC character with most effort put on it

They set out to create the worst DLC ever
And they succeeded

Tokyo Mirage Sessions.

>I've never played Hero
>I totally missed the part where people were raging for months about Hero being broken
The fact that he has 20 unique spells, four unique characters models, four voice actors and a stage with unique stuff going on proves he had the most work put on him. Just because you don't like him doesn't change this.

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It wasn't picked by fans from the start retard, we've known since before the game came out that Nintendo handed Sakurai a list saying "pick 5 and make them". Its clear they were all going to be partnerships.

It can help, but not without a good argument.

>20 unique spells,
Lmao

>uhhh if you don't like him you haven't played him!
Nah nigga get out of here, his base moveset is a slower Link. ALL of his unique elements are constrained to his specials, that's not even a knock against him or anything because there's only so many ways you can do a sword-and-board fighter.
>I totally missed the part where people were raging for months about Hero being broken
And those people were and are retards, his weak basic attacks and dependence on his own MP system for all of his real options keeps him roughly balanced against himself.
>The fact that he has 20 unique spells, four unique characters models, four voice actors and a stage with unique stuff
Like half of his spells are a stronger variant of another spell or "sword swing with effect", Bowser Jr. has seven alternate models through the Koopaling costumes each with their own voice-work. He's fairly high-effort but I'd probably put the effort mark on Joker for having his animated reveal trailer and that his moveset does appreciably change once he whips the Persona out, and only getting a counter instead of a gauge-increasing block once he does.

Because he’s based and he makes smashbabies seethe

>Nah nigga get out of here, his base moveset is a slower Link.
He's closer to Ike than Link. I main Link. He has few similar moves. His forward smash is like Ike. His tilts are more like Ike or Roy. His Aerials are more like Ike. Hell, even his Up Smash isn't like Link, it's a copy of Marth with less range.

The only thing that makes him similar to Link is a shield and his neutrals.

>Like half of his spells are a stronger variant of another spell or "sword swing with effect"
But they still put work into animating them. Your definition of "work" seems to be "unique ideas." My definition of work is how much effort the developers spent to create the content. Joker did get more work than a lot of characters, having unique moves in a second form. But I still say Hero got more. Because he has 20+ spells, his own unique mechanic and four different models.

>I'd probably put the effort mark on Joker for having his animated reveal trailer and that his moveset does appreciably change once he whips the Persona out, and only getting a counter instead of a gauge-increasing block once he does.
I don't understand how you count Joker as being unique for having the Persona mechanic, but not Hero for his spells/MP mechanic.

I know it will never happen, but every Nintendo direct I always hope for p5.
I loved that game so much (as much as p4) and I want to play it portable.
It will never happen, but if it does I'll take a poopoo on my ps4 and show you guys

I hate this fucker for not only not deserving to get in, but for being blatantly OP too.

If they wanted an SMT rep, they should've went with the IV protagonist. Or IV FINAL's.

All the DLC characters are broken compared to the main roster. They'll get nerfed eventually, then people will cry about it. It's just like any other game with DLC. They do it to get people to buy them.

Don't most people think that Hero and Banjo are high-mid tier at best.

Hero is the pubstomper so he gets overrated in strength

>Joker for having his animated reveal trailer
Nigga for trailer 2D animation is much more cheaper than 3DCGI.

People spent months raging about how broken Hero is. Same as every other DLC character. The characters aren't overpowered so much as people raging that they have to actually learn a new moveset. And can't just play the same character they've always played. This has been going on since the Brawl days when people cried about Dedede being overpowered because they couldn't just spam Fox/Falco and beat him effortlessly.

>cue some retard shouting "ACSHUALLY PERSONA Q2"

>his base moveset is a slower Link.
The only thing he has in common with Link is his shield stance and his dash attack. He's overall more similar to Ike with lesser range.

Besides Banjo, who Sakurai doesn’t give a shit about.

Hero definitely had the most effort put in, but besides which Joker represents Persona and the series at large pretty poorly so I wouldn't even say they put as much effort into him as they should have. Also 6 of the 8 mainline games are Nintendo exlusive with the 9th one continuing the trend, for fuck sake the series literally has a canon crossover with FE as another spinoff. No matter how hard you people try to deny it Persona has always been and will always be just another SMT spinoff. This has been acknowledged by Nintendo officially in regards to Joker and it's why he's in, even if it's like adding Yoshi before Mario.

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bowser jr might be a higher effort character but he isn't DLC, which is what we're talking about
Hero is definitely higher effort than Joker

I thought about this just yesterday. Since Smash has gotten a character that isn't on a Nintendo platform and just something Sakurai likes, literally any character is viable now.

At this point, I think the real question is, will Smash stay mostly a Japanese IP or start trying to shove in western characters. They could put fucking John Marston in the game as a reskin of Snake. I don't want them to, but just saying that's the state we're in now.

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Hero is broken if the RNG favors him. That's why he's stupid and people want him banned. It's not that he's always amazing, it's just that his strength is tied to luck, and that's inherenetly anti-competitive.

Banjo is a jack of all trades but master of none. Kinda like Mario. So he's pretty much high tier until someone good picks him up, if he wrecks shit in a random tournament I wouldn't be surprised.

We should have gotten Jack Frost instead, hee-ho.

>Hero is broken if the RNG favors him.
Not really. Even if all the RNG is in his favor, Hero still needs to actually land his moves which is easier said than done because all his moves are heavily telegraphed.
I think most tournament players have already dismissed him as not being viable for tournaments. Even Salem is playing mostly Snake again.

Flynn would've been a better pick.

>bb-but muh anime swordsmen
Just give him a magic build, maybe summons too.

The tourneyfags just hate anything RNG/luck based. Even when it isn't overpowered. Hero isn't overpowered. But if they get criticaled once or fall for just one Kaboom, they rage and demand a ban. "How dare a character block my Falco combos! BAN HIM!"

Tournament players don't want to rely on luck, that's why nobody's playing him. Also
>snooze's huge ass hitbox
>accelerate
>Zoom
>Magic Burst
>Heal
>that stupid fireball thing
>etc.
A lot of his moves are easier to land that you fags give it credit. And even then, the character still has critical hits. Again, I don't think he's incredibly broken (only if the luck is on his side), I'm more so in favor of a ban because he's anti-competitive.

>picking IV over V
bruh

If you actually know about the story in Dragon Quest games, DQV Hero wouldn't work. I mean, they could still put him in just because. But it wouldn't fit the theme of the chosen one or the unique armor that Smash Bros went with.

I don't care if his son is actually the chosen, he still is the mc of V. I bet they didn't because the massive failure of the movie.

>b-b-but Persona is not on the Switch
Like if anyone outside nincels on Yea Forums care, at this point Ultimate is just nostalgiabait and 3rd party shilling, look forward to Ellie from TLOU being the next character

Hero in Smash was planned and completed long before the movie came out. That movie is a failure on its own and shouldn't even be considered Dragon Quest. It should be called How To Train Your Dragon 4.

>people were raging for months about Hero being broken
This says nothing. Remember the early days of Ultimate, where people were convinced that Ike, Chrom, K. Rool, and the Belmonts were broken?

Hero’s hitboxes are good in general. A character with a wide variety of projectiles and disjoints literally can’t be shit. I like the character and think he was a good inclusion, but Hero matchups can be pretty silly for both people playing.

>m-muh x char is broken
holy fuck its a goddamn party game stop being so fucking autistic over godamn nothing.

not to mention Memelee is more broken than MvC2 is and still has a cult following

Chrom is still really damn good

Poor Ike though, he’s still good but most people have figured out counterplay to him and no one plays him anymore besides like, Ryuga and Ravenking

Tell that to Corrin. Bigass hitboxes. Super underwhelming

>we're not the ones sending a calling card this time
>we've been invited

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You're right, Chrom and Lucina are still the best swordies by a mile

>but chrom's recovery

It's only bad if you don't mix it up. Go for airdodge to ledge or sweetspot it instead of recovering with Up B early.

Underwhelming doesn’t really mean shit, though. Corrin is capable of doing some interesting mixups with his kit. You just have to play around his blindspots and inconsistent damage output.

People also just don't know how to play Hero. What people really should be doing is searching his magic list for Accelerate, Oomph or Bounce. People often complain Hero is too slow. Cast Accelerate and he is faster than anyone. Land a smash attack with Oomph on and the character can die at 40%. And Bounce shuts down any range attack, which half the characters in the game rely on range to draw enemies close or push them away. Hero shuts all that down.

Then he's also one of the best edge guarders in the game, has heavy strength in a medium weight/speed character and is a swordsman with range. He's an improved Ike and Robin, combined into one character.

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why do smashbabbies think that one person winning tournaments with a character makes the character op?
if someone started winning third strike tournaments with twelve, you fags would probably start whining that twelve is op.

>sakurai wanted him
>best candidate for a megaten rep
>cool surprise character
People who question his inclusion need to use their brains more

That became apparent with Incineroar and even more so with Plant

>DLC character with most effort put on it
Hero has three times as many moves and twice as many costumes. Hero's stage is significantly larger than Joker's. Hero has FOUR different voice actors. Joker certainly has a lot of effort put in, yes, compared to say Piranha Plant or some of the non DLC characters, but compared to Hero it's not even close.

Yeah but Banjo and Kazooie got remixes :^)

If Nintendo really did give sakurai a list of characters to choose from, what if one said smt and sakurai used that as a loophole to put in joker saying it's technically smt

I think that's possibly what happened. Maybe not a loophole, but he could've got back to them and suggested Joker.

>best candidate for a megaten rep
Most fans would disagree.

>If Nintendo really did give sakurai a list of characters to choose from
They didn't. If Nintendo was running it, we wouldn't get any third party characters or characters from dead Nintendo IPs. We'd only get characters for games coming out on the latest console.

But this rumor going around is stupid, since Sakurai himself said he picks the characters. He just has to check with Nintendo or any third party company for the rights.

Most fans also fail to realise that Jack Frost would be lame to actually play as and nobody knows who the main entry MC's are. I like SMT but picking the character from the most popular recent entry is an obvious choice.

Those people are wrong, every single DLC character is completely and utterly broken and overpowered, Yea Forums constantly screams this nonstop therefore it is absolute fact and reality.

To be fair, the Banjo Kazooie remixes are fucking great, Spiral Mountain is a fun stage with good visuals, and they portrayed Banjo well in terms of animations. It’s a bummer that we didn’t get more, but what we did get is high quality.

>If Nintendo was running it, we wouldn't get any third party characters or characters from dead Nintendo IPs
It was stated that Nintendo chose the characters. It's not hard to imagine Nintendo looking at who would be profitable, popular or easy to negotiate and giving Sakurai a long list of potential candidates based on that.

I actually do think there's some truth to Hero being a little broken. Obviously there's a random element, but I don't really think the random element is particularly fair in a fighting game. Joker and Banjo are fine though. I know people cry about Joker but he can be easily punished if the player doesn't know what they're doing.

>Joker STILL making people upset
OP It's been like 9 months

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>It should have been some guy not on a Nintendo system from a game a decade ago that didn't sell well!
Look I like Raidou as much as the next guy but you're straight up retarded if you thought him or Demifiend would happen

I'm just upset he didn't come with Whims of Fate and Life Will Change

It was kinda weird that Life Will Change wasn't included. I always figured that maybe it didn't fit well with Smash, Sakurai seems like he's particular on the music being added

He probably would if his music selection was P5 only

>It was stated that Nintendo chose the characters.
No it wasn't. If you're quoting that one article, it was a mistranslation of what Sakurai said. And even considering that article, there's numerous other interviews with him where he says he picks the characters. Going back to the days of Brawl. He picked Cloud. He was begged by Kojima to put Snake in and HE did. Not Nintendo. He chose not to put Ice Climbers in Smash 4 and so on.

You're talking about Smashfags. They're still mad about Poke Floats and Meta Knight.

YOU GET WHAT YOU FUCKING DESERVE

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>ridley
>castlevania
>krool
>banjo
>sans
Everything isn't black and white, crybaby.

B&K didn't have an invitation, so is that the actual narrative?

This movie's going to destroy Yea Forums.

Good. Burn it all down and start over. If Star Wars didn't destroy Yea Forums, nothing will.

Only Smash tourney players have that mindset, and they only have it toward any character that wasn't in Melee. See how they don't say a word about Peach, Marth, or Fox in Ultimate but the moment a later character or newcomer appears good or starts being used a lot they immediately begin screaming and crying about OP and demanding nerfing.

Is there something wrong with wanting ALL the stages back?

>How is he even in?

Because Sakurai wanted him in.

Duh. This has been obvious since Melee.

No you fuck. Nintendo made a list, it could have been a fucking 3 page list we don't know, and SAKURAI HIM SELF SAID I WILL see if a moveset could be made.

Yea. It's sad to see how little repping banjo-kazooie got.

And I'm absolutely certain you'd be creaming yourself over the fan-demanded Waluigi, Waddle Dee, Goku, Shrek, and Hitler.

Still a shitload more repping than Final Fantasy got.

Mario is not a fucking jack of all trades. He has one of the best combo games ever. That’s what he masters

LMAO Fuck those characters but Waluigi and Hitler.

Sakurai literally told people to go buy an xbox just to play Banjo I think its safe to say hes a big fan of the series

No. I want all the stages back. I was pointing out that Smashfags were complaining about Poke Floats all the way back in the Melee days. Poke Floats was their go to reason for why we should only play Final Destination all the time, as stupid as that logic is.

>Poke Floats was their go to reason for why we should only play Final Destination all the time
No-one except retards said that. Poke Floats was legal for a good while.

Worked for Snake in Brawl.

>It's sad to see how little repping banjo-kazooie got
How much were you expecting? It's on par with the other 2 DLC so far.

STOP IT SAKURAI HATES BANJO ALRIGHT ACCORDING TO MY PERSONAL HEADCANNON

>Yea. It's sad to see how little repping banjo-kazooie got.
What? They got more than Hero, and pretty par for the course for DLC.

>No-one except retards said that.
So Smashfags.

>Poke Floats was legal for a good while.
It and 3/4 the other levels were thrown out the second they came up with the idea of creating "tournament rules." Gradually a few more stages were put back in. But outside of the "official" rules, most Smashfags (aka wanna be tourneyfsgd) demanded nothing but Final Destination every game. This is where the Fox/No Items/Final Destination meme came from. And it goes back all the way to like year 2 of Melee being out.

Yeah - but point is that it was never a very enforced thing in actual tournies, it was always a mid-level retard thing to say. It's a meme for a reason. Even back in Melee people DID experiment with stages (not just Poke Floats, but also Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, Yoshi's 64, and Kongo Jungle 64). We've learned more about how people abuse the fuck out of those stages since, though, and Poke Floats in particular has a bunch of unfortunate shit with ledges.

BASED

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>Yeah - but point is that it was never a very enforced thing in actual tournies
Uh, yeah it was. What are you talking about? Look I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt here, what tourney can you find that didn't use FD

Ridley, Simon, K. Rool, Chrom, and Dark Samus were literally all added because of fan demand.

I thought you were implying that people were running FD *only*. Of course FD is played at tournies, what's bad about that?

That's exactly what I was implying. I'm saying, show me a tourney where they didn't use FD.

To to mention Banjo and the Sans Mii costume

What are you on about? I never said that FD isn't played in tournies, but that tournies that *only* ran FD never really existed.

>I never said that FD isn't played in tournies, but that tournies that *only* ran FD never really existed.
and I'm saying show me a tourney where they used a stage besides FD, why are you avoiding the question so much
Oh right because it's completely bullshit

That's not what he and I were talking about. We were saying the vast majority of smashfags would scream and pout and throw their controller in a tantrum if you picked anything but Final Destination. And picking Poke Floats was done to troll them.

Uh, sure.
ssbwiki.com/List_of_national_tournaments#Super_Smash_Bros._Melee
Literally pick any.

>ssbwiki.com/List_of_national_tournaments#Super_Smash_Bros._Melee
So you have no proof whatsoever for your claims. Makes sense, since it was complete bullshit to begin with

What? Look up any of these tournaments on Youtube or whatever and you see that they're playing on stages that aren't FD. Are you retarded?

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Then why didn't you link that you dumbshit? Oh right because it's all complete bullshit and any actual tourney matches were done on FD

Closest thing would be... SMT1 & 2 i guess?

>Not Persona Q2
Are you just trying to be dumb

>Dragon Ball Quest

Can you actually kill someone with kamikaze?

Yes, you got the joke everyone else got a year ago. Good job.

>a tourney where they didn't use FD.
does not mean the same thing as
>used a stage besides FD,
You ESL insect.

>Goalpost moving
Sure, faggot

In Smash? I do it all the time.

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>snake has been a part of smash since 2007
>this is still an argument

Why do people talk so much about smash if clearly nobody's paying attention

You're probably pretending to be retarded, but benefit of the doubt here.
youtube.com/watch?v=wkF4KuDiRRs
youtube.com/watch?v=Ea9_nwcN37I
youtube.com/watch?v=ITEmj-0HsBA

>FD or the FD-style levels
Wow you really showed nobody here, fag

And centralized legal stagelist

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>or the FD-style levels
The fucking what now? Are you in here making up terms? What does that even mean?

Wasn't the argument the entire time that Poke Floats was legal? It's not

>Poke Floats was legal for a good while.
Oh, was it? doesn't seem to agree

>Why do people talk so much about smash if clearly nobody's paying attention
Literally the Smash Bros fanbase in a nutshell. But at the time, Snake was explained to be in Smash Bros because they had released a remake of MGS on GameCube.

Do you even keep track of what you're saying yourself?
>and I'm saying show me a tourney where they used a stage besides FD
>do so
>LOL WHY ISN'T POKE FLOATS LEGAL

Keywords here being "for a good while" - i.e. in early experimental rulesets. This is the current ruleset since ~2006.

>most effort put on it

why do shitposters don't know anything?

His inclusion actually made me get around to playing P5, as my friend got it years ago. It was an alright game, I wasn't too engrossed in it the entire time, but damn, seeing the All-Out Attack as his FS make me smile.
Him using Eiha without having Arsene out bothers the shit out of me after playing P5. Also him not running out of ammo. That's autism for you.

>Moving goalposts
If Poke Floats was legal then obviously you can show me some evidence that it was, in fact, legal, right?

>It used to be legal, just uh, before all that
You dumbass, you were the one who was arguing that Poke Floats was totally tourney legal to begin with, this is classic goalpost moving

Sure.
youtube.com/watch?v=CPjGehlm6fM
youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg
youtube.com/watch?v=MLC4I8EeANQ

For good measure, here's Rainbow Cruise:
youtube.com/watch?v=kt7BEfVS8v8

And Kongo Jungle:
youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k

>Not actually tourneys
Ok I'm honestly getting bored with your shit man

All of those are tourneys. The second link in there is actually one of the main contributors to it being banned.

Okay but it's not like joker got into smash exclusively because of his appearance in persona Q2, smash isn't about just nintendo all stars any more. It hasn't been since sm4sh and that that's plainly obvious, on top of sakurai himself saying so.

>relies on the RNG to do his work
>hasn't strategized multiple approaches based on which one of his possible spells he gets
You Gotta Git Gud

ACC-EL-ER-ATLE.

I mean you don't need to "strategize" much, he has like five sword swings and six projectiles, all of which hit in a very similar area in front of you.

Exactly. Here's how you play Hero.

-Cast a buff on yourself and attack.
-Buff didn't come up in the list? Use an offensive spell or cancel, depending on where your opponent is.
-Have to cancel? Focus on tilt or neutral attacks and knock opponents away so you can get menu back up.
-If opponent falls off the edge, search your menu for one of the multiple skills that is good for edge guarding, especially Kaboom, Magic Burst or Snooze.

Just like playing a real Dragon Quest game, playing Hero is about preparation and efficiency. Not brute strength.

>is about preparation and efficiency
Translator note: user means running away

Very much this. Has anyone cimplaining about hero tried the button that makes you go in the air for a little bit when he suddenly stops moving and starts stroking his chin?

Nobody fucking knows who Flynn is

Yeah, basically that. The only issue is that some of the other options are self-buffs and you want to hit him out of it, which is dangerous. Also, Magic Burst really shouldn't go under the ledge - but even with that, Hero hasn't really made any waves anywhere except on For Glory.

>People actually implying that B&K are bad, or that by being a well-rounded character, they're not good
He should have had some shitty gimmick that made him an absolute chore to play as, right?

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Except I said the opposite. Using attacks to push people away.

That's not actually how good Hero players play him at all, though. Why are you engaging in a neutral you don't win most of the time?

I find it weird how US people don't think Japan has ever heard of Banjo, all the japanese reaction videos pretty much immediately knew who Banjo was

It's because people saw the Hero + Banjo reveal as a thing where it was one for the East, one for the West - while in reality it was both for the East, and Banjo shown at the same time to also have a character popular in the West in there.

The caveat for magic burst at ledge is supposed to be that 96% of the time you go for it end in you giving opp a free recovery for nothing, but suddenly that percentage means you only have something to gain in online matches because everyone is terrible and would rather try to 2 frame with f smashes from the safety of the stage than actually edgeguard. So a 4% magic burst is only a bad option to higher levels of play, at which point you'd probably want a character who can just consistently edgeguard without booty frame data.

Unfortunately, if you're good at smash, you probably have better ways of finding matches than quickplay.

>Why are you engaging in a neutral you don't win most of the time?
Because I do? If an opponent is rushing you, I use zap when they're far, neutral a when they're right next to me. This knocks them back and stuns them for 1-2 seconds. Which is all you need to bring up the menu. That's how most characters play.

GAMERS RISE UP

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>More Music for two games than Joker got to cover 3 or Hero got for 4. Comparable remixed tracks to both combined
>More spirits than Hero, a bit less than Joker (who was padded by every individual Phantom Thief getting one, and then one for them altogether.)
>Faithful moveset (in large) to his home games. Only glaring thing is Rata-tat-tat being b-air instead of f-air, maybe to not just be Ridley's.
Nah, Banjo got plenty.

Except your "neutral a" is fucking shit. Almost all characters can pressure him because his normals have garbage frame data, which is the main way he gets beat. Literally look up Salem and Dabuz's matches of this weekend: they spend a lot of time running away rather than engaging unless absolutely necessary. Played optimally, Hero is pretty campy.

The western fans live in a bubble. They don't even know that Banjo is in the game because of Japanese polls. They also constantly complain everything should be done for them. When Sakurai goes out of his way to make it a game with Japanese reps, references and humor.

Sakurai wanted him in.

Zorras Arechas

>its shit because these tournament players proved it
Opinion discarded. I'm not playing frame obsessed tournament players who practice their moves for months. I'm playing online matches and local friends. I'm the autistic guy who loaded up training mode and played it for hours before actually playing a match as Hero. And as a result, I had the timing and techniques down. I've only lost one match as Hero since he released.

Will Sakurai ever give Suda what he wants?

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That's nice man. I beat my friends too, which means I have a very big brain.

SMTV got cancelled so they want people to focus on Persona

>which means I have a very big brain.
You obsess over tournament players, which means you don't.

If Travis or Sora get in, I will sell Smash Ultimate and never play any future game.

>hating travis
faggot

Oh the irony.

Sakurai apparently really loved Persona 5. Considered it a JRPG masterpiece or something like it.

It's like people don't even know that Atlus released liked eleven games with Nintendo during the 3ds wii u era.

hero has most of his moves and animations ripped directly from other swordies

The narrative is that Banjo escaped Microsoft, so he's technically an illegal immigrant in smash

Just to piss on Sony I guess

what is so unique about his stage? it’s a common touring stage. spiral mountain is more unique

This, it's pretty clear Sakurai does not see "because I want him" as an actual argument for a character's inclusion, otherwise we'd have Geno and Waluigi.

>tendies paid for an advertisement for a PS4 exclusive
lolk