3 games later this still hasn't been topped

Project M with a bigger roster would unironically be the best smash game

Sakurai gimped the franchise on purpose and openly said so, where's the mystery?

Zoomer here. Grew up with Melee. Still think Brawl is better

You can actually feel the soul slip away by the time it got to Brawl, and then it became completely robotic in 4, 3DS, and Ultimate. Just look at the general aesthetic . 64 and melee actually looked raw and edgy, it had such a distinct style from other nintendo games. Then it just became the millionth iteration of the clean, no-balls Nu-ntendo design.

>compfags

>use a bunch of shitty glitches to look as good as any
How is this a problem? You realize combos were a glitch in street fighter 2 but instead of taking them out they properly implemented them like any competent developer would

Delusional meleefags is what went wrong.

cause it is a good game to play with friends especially now that 8 players can play at once.
competitive fags bend over backwards to make it an "esport"

Its literally the been game ever made

Devs are lazy fucks who can't make an adventure mode right

Yikes bet you think twilight princess was the best Zelda too

Begone phoneposter

Because the glitches in Melee look fucking stupid and unlike combos make 0 actual sense and are not fun to play with

Subspace > Adventure mode

Actually cringed reading this

if you want to get technical, jumping momentum and dash dancing, and the perfect amount of hitstun.
on top of that, games were generally played on CRTs up to that point and were being replaced en masse by extremely laggy 120ms+ HDTVs.

overall, the Wii (Sports) came out WHILE CoD4 and Gears of War were taking over the world, so Brawl was this unholy abomination of realistic graphics with casualized gameplay.

Smash has never recovered from all the casualized mechanics.

I played Brawl recently after not having touched it for several years. I was honestly shocked.
It's literally like Melee in slow motion. I just feel embarrassed for people who think this is the best smash bros.

No Zelda made after 2002 is the best one. As far as 3D ones go:
Ocarina > Majora > Windwaker > others
With not much difference in quality between the first 3.

Its been left in the dust, on life support funded by people like you who can't let go and move on, but hey, you do you

>not fun to play with
lol just admit you can't wavedash you massive scrub
even my baby brother just plays Luigi spamming wd dsmash and has the best time

user I get it you suck

>Melee players suck at every non-smash game
>still insist its a fighting game

>life support
>melee competitive scene bigger than ever, objectively
What did he mean by this

Literally this, in ultimate it feels like characters have to play their own style of game to do well. In melee it's all about techskill and who can move around better.

It's a sumo wrestling style platform fighting game :)

Majora was always better than OOT, and Botw was better than all of them (despite also being garbage)

Ultimate is way better though.

>rich color and sound
>character animations are god tier
>actually balanced
>retarded amount of content
>it actually has character diversity in contrast with the og 64 cast and a bunch of clones and marth and mewtwo
>it will keep receiving updates probably for years to come

Wii U + 3DS made this game completely obsolete, and then Ultimate came along and dabbed all over it. Only tryhard tourneyfags still insist on Melee.

How about you face me in a real fighting game and not your casual babyfest?

All characters in ult play the same

>says nothing about the gamplay
Thanks for telling me your game is trash

>Melee competitive scene bigger than ever
>No presence at Evo
>Less than 800 entrants at smash con
>Less than 700 entrants at shine
UH OH

The Wii was successful, and Brawl wasn't seen as the mistake it was. I say thay as someone who likes Brawl, it is objectively and legitimately the worst game in the damn series. The problem is, it sold because of the Wii.

Botw is unironically, not even kidding, for real, not contrarianism, the worst 3D zelda. Link to the past shits on them all anyway.

>Wobbling
>Rest
>Chaingrabbing
>Planking
>Peached smash doing 60%
>Lowtiers being unplayable
>Literally ban anything that doesnt fit into your perspective of how the game should be played

Fuck melee. Huge time investment for no real payoff. The amount of time it takes to get good at it you could spend your time literally doing anything else. Rather than learning how to moonwalk ingame learn it out of game. Overrated game where literally nothing changes.

What game ?

Proof that smelees have only ever played Melee

Smash is a party game to play with friends
You do have friends right?

>it actually has character diversity
Like quadruple clones? We literally have clones of clones now.

>that list

all of which have good counterplay due to Melee's good design. Try again.

Yeah, I can hardly tell the difference between Little Mac and Shulk.

There is literally nothing wrong with rest

>gimmick characters

Naw the others are still worse, but I agree that link to the past, and even link between worlds are far better games

>Subspace > Adventure mode
Wrong

So then why do you fags want those things banned so badly

>Hurr durr let me approach you with my safe aerial at 0 so I can hopefully combo because that the only time you can in this pathetic game
>oh no we're both at high percents now we both keep bouncing of each other receting to neutral in Hope's one of us dies
Shit game

When are you going to start talking about Ultimate?

Proof you you dont play ultimate

I do and I main a low tier (Ridley) something I couldn’t do in Smelee since all heavys are shit

Not Dorf if you aren't shit

>since all heavys are shit
As they should be, you shouldn't be rewarded for throwing out random smash attacks

>You like big characters? that's bad you don't deserve to play the game like I do. Shine is totally fair and balanced and cool guys right?

Unironically this.

Also this
Worst game of all time

They refuse to let go because it's the only thing that kept them company in their adolescence.
it's the only thing they are good at, just let them be, they are sad enough as it is.
>muh better game
Nintendo could literally make melee with more characters and they would still not let go like they did with pm.

>we'll never have that classic 64 sound design back

>character diversity
>they all play exactly the same and follow simple dumb flowcharts

Just admit you are too stupid to play a character who can’t play the game without running around at 60 mph to avoid attacks

>Haha lame ass confirms
>Sheik and Falcon dthrow forward air

You can't do it in ultimate either, you'd get blown up by anyone good

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those are legit problems with the game but none of them apply if you don't have lame friends that play gatekeeper characters
I just had the best netplay session Mario v Link after we got tired of spacies
if you get past the techskill barrier and don't run into whores playing ICs Sheik or Puff, most mid tiers are perfectly playable and fun.

mid tiers that are fun af
>ganon
>samus
>mario/luigi
>pika
>link/ylink
>fuckin DK
>ness

>wobbling
>counterplay
lmao just never get grabbed

Where's Doc in this list

Guess Theres no one good in Elite smash

A smashfag will always cry for a ban instead of getting good everytime

More like your to stupid to play a good game

oh he's a given when I lumped Mario Luigi together, I just figured I was talking to casuals

delusional and pathetic. modern smash characters are so terribly identical it's laughable. melee characters are incredibly diverse and represents their games better than ryu not turning ever could. On top of general stats and game plans (marth needing to plan ahead, captain falcon being explosing and flashy), the intricacies that come with melee somehow gel with the characters perfectly. Samus in particular is very interesting because, due to glitches (actual glitches not basic results of the physics system >LOL WAVEDASHING) she has a lot of small tools that can help her overcome any obstacle. all it takes is learning them and taking a few minutes to master using them. Almost reminds you of another game featuring samus. These coincidences are prevalent throughout the cast along side , and though im not going to claim any of it was done purposefully, the consistency of it is staggering.
Ultimate plays like shit lol

EVO 2013 was the worst thing to ever happen to the Smash community
Change my mind.

>Smash
>fighting game

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A Fast Fighting Game can only be beaten by a Faster Fighting Game. Of all Fighting Games of the world, Melee is in 2019 still the MASTER.

>>rich colour and sound
holy shit

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Been a while since I've seen this one

Shut Up Akuma. Go to Hell. Or, should I say, Go back to Hell. And keep producing more Akuma no Mi.

my friends are competitive minded people, we don't like casual shit

But it’s not a fighting game

>d-doesn't count

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what's a fighting game with the same feeling of melee? Maybe gg? But that's dead af

Melee will always be king but Ultimate has an absolutely insane roster that's honestly pretty well balanced for the most part and the gameplay isn't complete shit like Brawl so I like it.

There's a bunch of games like it. Not really fighting games, but smashlikes

Rivals of aether, brawlhalla, slap city to name some

Melee > 64 > Ultimate

Melee > 64 > Ultimate > 4 > Brawl

64 > Nu-Smash

>Melee > 64 > Ultimate > 4 > Shit > Brawl

>Thinking online is a metric for how good you are
This is the power of casuals

It’s not that it hasn’t been topped, it’s that you don’t take showers.

Melee>PM>Ult>64>Rivals>Brawl ->Slap City>Eating Shit>Brawlhalla>Smash 4>Brawl=Play Station All Stars

Even as a child I noticed how slow and boring this pos game was. Went back to Melee after two weeks.

That EVO tourney was fucking amazing, wasn't it?

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>Thinking 64 is at all good
Take those nostalgia goggles off it's almost as bad as smash 4

Not really

Once mango finally retires melee will be dead

>ultimate online

this guy actually knows what he's talking about
melee's technical mechanics adhere to such a consistent feeling that once you can play the game fluidly, almost any character can be played with such freedom
>when you suddenly can ledgecancel with most characters
>wd out of shield with any character
>wd extending any dash dance
>shield stop/ wd down to micro position

I think the lack of buffer is both a pleb filter and makes the game completely consistent to play.

I will say 64 has the most satisfying hit sounds in Smash.

Cracking someone with Mario’s F-Smash sounded and felt like you just nailed someone with the Fist of God

Melee is garbage.

Shit game, slow as hell

Smash is not a fighting game, it's a party game (Even the creator explicitly stated so). Hence, it cannot be "competitive", as the game is made with gimmicks and silliness/fun in mind and not balance. A great example of this is how all of the heavy characters are garbage. They are bad because they are fundamentally designed to be big and slow and not fast enough for competitive, whereas a truly competitive game would have viability among various character playstyles through different metas.

Smash is just like pokemon, a game for children that some autists wanted to play "competitively" because they couldn't let go of their childhood, but over time people started humoring them, and now it's a thing. The players don't even know how to bathe, who actually takes this seriously?

In ultimate Bowser, Ridley, Rob, ganon, and Piranha Plant are big characters that's do well. Melee is the only smash game where big characters all suck

>muh wavedashing boogeyman
You don’t have to do any of that tourney autist shit to enjoy the game, the base gameplay is just better. If you faggots would just invite a friend or 2 over for some drinks and play the game for 2 fucking hours you would understand this, instead you’d rather spam stinky day memes and remain ignorant.

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Brawl serves as a better party game than Melee

I like brawl more, has all of my favorite fighters (and I don't suck shit at it)

Also ultimate is better in every way and you need some serious cope to think otherwise

based

>glitches
lol glad to see this meme is still around, and is doing its job proving that people who spout it have no idea what they're talking about

Why do people still pretend Melee is any good?

Brawl has the BEST additional content in the series.
4 and Ultimate are more fun to play and have objectively better rosters.

Ultimate>Brawl>Melee>64>Smash 4

>doesn’t even mention gameplay
>praises the color and sound

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If you’re such a hardcore fighting fan then why do you only like the most casual friendly SSB games?

>Also ultimate is better in every way and you need some serious cope to think otherwise
Explain

Lost its soul. Sakurai has unlimited money and time to make the game. He's allowed to release whatever the fuck he wants, kind of like Gamefreak with Pokemon.

Heres hoping the Riot fighting game is good.

>complains about wobbling and chain grabbing
>then complains about things being banned

Ultimate>PM>Brawl>64>Playstation All Stars>Slap City>Silly Melee>Melee=Eating actual shit

Smash gameplay has been exactly the same since 64 whats the praise?

Are cutfags just Meleefags in disguise? Wanting to constantly go back to the two-four fighter meta? For fucks sake we already only play on Final Destination for you faggots, let us at least play fun characters.

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No it doesn’t because the gameplay is worse. Even from a casuals perspective the game is a lot more confusing due to random tripping, items being microscopic, and distracting moving backgrounds. Even the sound design is quiet and unsatisfying compared to Melee.

>two-four fighter meta
t.doesnt play melee

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The buffer always hurts more than it ever helps. I've fucked up so many inputs in Ultimate just because I went to do something, my state changed like getting hit, and it still does that same input so I just end up air dodgiest to my doom or something.

thank Sakurai the retard for solidifying the FD meme
all we ever wanted was the option to turn hazards off so

Yeah, unlike brawl there's actual options you have to attack and move. In brawl attacking a shield or even trying to run around are bad options'

64 is great, playing friendlies with someone who doesn't take it too seriously is some of the most fun you can have in a Smash game.

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>I will say 64 has the most satisfying hit sounds in Smash.
By far. Kicking somone in smash 64 sounded like someone smashed a radiator with an aluminum bat. They had to tone it down in Melee because the faster gameplay would have made the constant smash sounds annoying as fuck (are there any mods that do this? It would be hilarious) but than they just straight up ruined it in all the other games.

>Rosterfag doesn't know shit about how the game is played
Why am I not surprised?

There's this on Brawlvault
forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=204601

It's kind of old though so I dunno how good it is

Can we stop this melee, ultimate is literally better. Melee just has a few things in it that were really fucking amazing (targets, all star, adventure, events, and trophies) but ultimate literally has everything else and is doing it better.

Casuals don't care at all about those gameplay changes, if anything that makes the game more fun
>the sound design is quiet and unsatisfying compared to Melee
Brawl has the best sound design in the series what the fuck are you on about

I love Melee, but after playing the later Smash games for so long that I just suck at it now. I'll do dumb mistakes like trying to grab the ledge with Falcon sideB.

>but ultimate literally has everything else and is doing it better.
Yeah except the gameplay

>bully thinks akuma is sooooooooooo koool
akuma wouldnt even give a shit about weaklings dumbass

The roster is the only part of smash worth shit the gameplay has always been bad

What are you a compfag? For a childrens party game?

Nah, Bro. Non Sense.

>Yeah except the gameplay
youtube.com/watch?v=uEA9QSM1BUU
youtube.com/watch?v=mpuBAFGI4jo

No. Melee is Faster than 64. So Melee is better than 64.

Melee is Faster than 64. So Melee is better than 64.

So you admit ultimate is trash

>Favorite is 64
Those fags that say 3rd parties ruined smash
>Favorite is melee
Compfags who never shower
>Favorite is brawl
Casualfags
>Favorite is smash 4
Contrarians
>Favorite is ultimate
Rosterfags

Casuals don’t like floaty, awkward gameplay user nor do they like it when their character randomly falls down for no reason. Personally I think the random tripping is kind of funny but a casual who doesn’t know what they’re doing need consistency, if they ask you why their character fell down and you say “that just happens sometimes” I don’t think they would like it. When Brawl came out my sister who used to play Melee and 64 with us played a round because it was the one time she was even a little excited about a new game coming out, she was so confused by the chaos that she never played it again. And no, the sound design sucks, fuck off. Hitting people in Melee get really good mostly because of the physics but also because of that satisfying thud, a thud that wasn’t in Brawl and was replaced by a noise resembling someone scratching a piece of paper.

>tfw Fzero-GX was so good they never bothered making another game again

>ban wobbling!!
>ban jigglypuff!!
>ledge grab limit!!!!
>only 4 viable stages!!!
>fox, marth, and falco the game

amazing gameplay you have there.

This

Smash is shit, I can’t wait for school to start and all you underage fucks stop posting about your shitty party game for children. Cope, seethe, have sex, and dilate as applicable.

>What went wrong?
rosterfags who can't play the game properly and instead bitch about wavedashing being a glitch or something

Why don’t you try playing Melee, it’s really fun, I promise.

>underage fucks
>have sex and dilate
Pick one

Brawl is the shittest of all Smash Games. It took off Roy (FE).

Its way more fun than Melee, and isn’t filled with sweaty smelly manchildren

Melee is more fun with or without the advanced shot that autists do.

What about 64? I see no Roy (FE).

>go to Melee tournament at local game shop a few years ago while in high school, think it'll be cool
>fucking everyone there are in their mid 20s, smell like shit, are either obese or pencil thin, and only drink energy drinks the entire day

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Are we just going to conveniently ignore the fact that this guy made the exact same type of video damnation for every other Smash game?

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Roy (FE) didn't existed in 1999, when 64 was released. He was created in 2001.

melee is the most fun even if you're playing casually.

It really isn't, the fact that you have to learn how to move just to make it feel right means it sucks for casual play. It's way too stiff for someone not willing to learn it

Roy (FE) is the only Smash character born in a Smash Game. In Smash Melee.

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user did you not go to highschool

True. Fast Games are the Funnier.

Roy was straight up a shill pick, and one of the worst characters in Melee

For example Sonic 3D games. They are Fun because Sonic run Fast.

Literally everything you said about characters applies to Ultimate, except moreso. Thanks for proving Melee is inferior.

I don't think anything went wrong. Melee is an accident, an exception. If you erase Melee and go from 64 -> Brawl, it feels a like a natural 'evolution' of the series. Smash is about content, characters, stages, music, etc. But Melee is about gameplay, mechanics, speed, expresiveness and high skill ceilings.

It's a bit of a shame, really. I won't deny the cool rosters of future games make me a little jelly, but then I play them and it's night and day. I wish Nintendo would make a Smash sub-series with Melee's engine, even if it has less characters or effort being put into it. The gameplay just has not been topped, It's fun, it's annoyingly addictive. Fuck, what I'd give for a Melee 2. Alas, people care more about character reveals than good gameplay.

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Corrin

>the fact that you have to learn how to move
What the hell are you talking about? Have you ever played Melee?

I disagree. I think Ultimate is slightly better than Melee. The only real thing holding it back from being a complete blowout is the wonky jump momentum.

It really isn't. Nobody in real life would play Melee over Ultimate casually.

Yes. Sonic run not so fast in Sonic 2D games. Sonic run faster in 3D games and less fast in 2D games.

So, Sonic 3D > Sonic 2D

>, but then I play them and it's night and day
Yeah, Melee isn't near as fluid or fun as Ultimate.

If was already out in Japan

I know and I don't care. I would like him better, but still. Roy is my fav FE and Smash Character. Brazilian here.

Smelle

Smash is a platform fighter, a sub genre of fighting game. Other sub genres include 2D fighter and 3D fighter. A fighting game is just a high level term for "game where characters fight."

Sasori was based on Roy

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It's true. I don't hate Ultimate, I'd probably say it's the second most fun Smash game (Not counting PM), but it's still far too close to say, Smash 4 than Melee or even 64. Not bad, but still slow and limiting as fuck.

It feels clunky and stiff in your first play sessions. I know a lot of casual people that hate melee because the up bs don't snap to ledge or they accidentally jump off stage once and died for it. Melee is the most unfun smash to play casually.

>Smash is a platform fighter, a sub genre of fighting game.

Yes and actually it's the Father of all platform fighting games.

lmao retarded casual

This.

I guess melee fans are waiting for a good smash entry to finally have a reason to take a shower.

TAKE
A
SHOWER

Does jumping off the stage not lead to death in any other smash game besides Melee?

BAN JIGGLYPUFF
BAN ICE CLIMBERS
BAN BAN BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN

I'm just pointing out for such a perfect game you guys sure ban a lot.

I didn't understand your phrase. What is better than what? You suck at text making.

youre a doomer

I can smell this post through the internet

I said Melee is the most fun game in the series because it's fast and it doesn't hold the player back from expresing themselves. Ultimate is the second best, but it's still pretty damn far from Melee's amazing mechanics.

they need to add depth in ultimate somehow, maybe some new mechanics or moves like tekken did with its season passes

shits boring, shallow and a chore to watch. Even watching pros nothing feels really impressive

before anything, they need to fix the garbage online. too bad it'll never happen though

Even with all its flaws, I'd like Ultimate a lot more without the shitty buffer. That alone made me stop playing it.

I agree

yeah how the fuck can melee be an epic esports game when these subhuman shit characters exist

>What went wrong? Well, the following
>Ultimate has weak DI, low hitstun and low gravity. The combo game is super weak and it consists of incredibly short strings or x > y follow ups that only work in specific %s instead of having freeform combos that turn into DI mixups instead of straight up not working because the opponent can just airdodge. Look at any Ultimate combo video, it's some guy winning neutral four times in a row. If I wanted pre-canned strings I'd play a regular fighting game
>controls feel like shit due to needlessly long initial dash distance and input buffer, it feels like sending commands to the mars rover
>Melee's mechanic restore fundamental movement that should be in any fighting game. Being able to move left and right unimpeded is absolutely vital to the footsies game, in Ulti you can't, the pseudo-dashdance it has is shit and it's the equivalent of a Street Fighter game where you can only move three or five steps with no inbetweens
>recoveries are always free if you go low unless you lol2frame
>no edgehogging so no recovery mixups, literally just go low and press up B
>magnet hands so you don't stick your hurtbox above stage when you recover, meaning on-stage edgeguarding is useless. Did I mention you just go low and up B?
>more glitches. Actual glitches, as in "some characters can't be grabbed if they are shielding", "c-stick aerials are a macro instead of a proper button so you can't drift in the opposite direction" and "game shits itself if you try to hotswap controllers"
>more cancerous meta with a fuckton of zoner floaties
>pro players are homo pedos or literal children
>momentum doesn't carry in the air, feels like moving through molasses
>movement is so fucked neutral consists of "shieldstop and do an aerial" and nothing else in a game that is 99% neutral. Sometimes you can "dashback and whiff punish" which in Melee is week 2 on smashladder tier
>you lack interesting moves like shine unless the game goes full retard (Hero)

I can smell this post

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This right here.
>mechanical depth
>garbage online
>input buffer
How the FUCK does Melee have better mechanics, better online, and better buffer than the latest Smash game? Fucking HOW? It's okay if you like the cool roster, but it boogles my mind that Ultimatefags won't dare to complain about these three things.

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Ok. And I almost agree with this. But the list is #1 Melee, #2 64.

>ad hominem
The only argument zoomers can come up with. Ultimate is a lot of fun but you need to try Melee, it’s way better.

>The best online smash experience is the duct tape and rubber bands that is emulator netplay
Nintendo is pathetic.

Reminder that the same people will still like Melee by the time the next smash game comes out, while ULT fags will move on and call the last game shit because their favorite streamer said so. Maybe 4th times the charm ULT kiddies?

Melee was the game that got me into smash. I'm just not an autist that can't let go. Ultimates the first smash game that I've liked more than melee.

>next Smash
>implying

#1 Melee, #2 64. Because of mechanics. Listen, Brawl, 4, Ultimate has a bad mechanism called "buffering the input" due to these three recent games having online mode it makes the button you press execute the move even if the internet lags. It the game freezes your buffered/charged input will be executed after the game unfreeze. And this buffering also occurs in offline mode, cause even offline games can have lag.

So, without buffering inputs, because these games are only offline, Melee and 64 are the best ones, Melee being the Best Smash Game due to having 20+ characters and being the fastest smash game. End of Story.

Ultimate will honestly still live on considering the next game will have to make cuts. People will want to play their favorite characters

If you think Nintendo is going to stop making one of their biggest Cash cow franchises you're an absolute retard.

it's really sad if you thing about it

i'm actually branching to other fighting games and trying to forget smash, i'm tired of all this garbage and being constantly upset to the prospect of what we we could have if nintendo wasn't retarded

Nah they'll just keep porting Ultimate to future consoles

I do agree that the movement in ultimate feels less organic than other games, platforms are sticky, initial dash is needlessly wonky, wavedashing and wavelanding are very niche, perfect pivoting and dacus are gone, reverse hits are rare, attack canceling is boring aside from Rosalina, etc

Thankfully project NX is looking promising, hopefully switch hacking is as easy as the Wii in the future

Then...?

This.
I pirated the 3DS version played it once and uninstalled it, the game is shit.

Just keep porting ultimate but make it significantly different with each iteration. Just bite the bullet and change some mechanics around to what competitors have wanted like adding back in cool tech. Dacus was the coolest shit and I’m sad it’s gone

Brawl
Smash for 3DS
Smash for Wii U
That's 3 games

Ultimate topped Melee

I think we should call Smash Ultimate as ULT It will facilitate for us all

Jej

Unfortunately, nips have not heard of rollback netcode ever. And it is sad because Ultimate as a game shows promise but there's room for improvement in so many areas.

Bait.

>If you erase Melee and go from 64 -> Brawl, it feels a like a natural 'evolution' of the series.
Not really 64 is way more complex than brawl and ultimate. The only thing melee has that 64 doesn't is wavedashing user.

And DI and shield split and proper shieldstun and side special moves and stages and

>the Brawl/4 crowd who couldn't handle Melee players dismissing their games as slow, basic, and less competitive have now become Smash Ultimate elitists who join in on dismissing Brawl/4 as slow, basic and less competitive. WHILE STILL calling Melee players elitist for pointing out Ultimate's flaws.
Fascinating times we live in.

Melee is really sick, the characters are really nuanced and fun
I disagree. I think the characters in Melee feel distinct from one another, as a result of both stats and moveset. Just two examples:

For example Falco, while not the quickest horizontally, can move excellently vertically, and force mixups from a distance to approach. He also has a powerful punish game that can bloom from just a single hit in neutral. His fast falling speed and short recovery range means he gets gimped easily, and can die at low percents. However, he can mix-up his recovery in many ways if he can reach the stage.

Samus, like Falco, can use projectiles from a distance to force opponent to make a move, which with a good read or option coverage, can lead to an opening. She has poor vertical pressure, but great horizontal movement and range. Her crouch, which reduces knockback a lot, lets her punish many moves quickly, while it is ineffective against many others. This can lead to poweful mindgames, conditioning the opponent to approach a certain way. She's heavy, but also very floaty, meaning she resists knockback well, and can also easily make it back to stage. Creating tricky aerial stops and drift with bombs, and using a tether to hold onto the stage wall makes her recovery mixups tricky, and powerful. Her weaknesses are a few easily whiff-punishable moves, and her floatiness means she dies off the top easily.

This is just basic stuff, but it's already so nuanced. I really dig it.

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>And DI
It has smash di
>shield split and proper shieldstun and side special moves
I guess this is true but it doesn't really affect the gameplay very much due to L canceling being way better in 64 than melee allowing for extreme combo games.
I never said it was more complex than melee but brawl was still a huge step down from 64's complexity even if you ignore melee existed.

Topped? As the worst Smash game right? 'Cause it is the worst in the series.

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>Most Soul
Project M
>2nd Most Soul
Ultimate

Now combine them together, and you’ll get peak soul

>FASTER=BETTER

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nah bro they're just SCRUBS who have to make up EXCUSES because they're too afraid to ADAPT to anything that isn't Ultimate.

Ultimate is literally a soulless mismash of random franchises represented by nothing more than boring models that all play the same.

Ultimate with techskill from the previous games might be the best platform fighter for all eternity, but then again you’d need to buff a bunch of moves to have cooler mechanics imo

Give Zelda the side b that hangs in the air like PM already
Give samus a morph ball crawl
Give marth bigger tippers again

No more complex=better even fucking brawl is more complex than ultimate
>BUT MUH META KNIGHT DITTOS
I would rather watch 1000 meta knight dittos than one top 8 of Ultimate because one interaction in a meta knight ditto has more complexity than all of Ultimate.

too bad the devs were childish retards.
balance changes were made based on if the person (strongbad usually) higher up liked and respected you or not. it was fucking pathetic and i'm glad his shit icons trash flopped.

what the FUCK happened

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CHADBOXED

Perhaps the same could be said of all smash games

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post fat armada

i'll raise you a chillin

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Based and truthpilled

No because atleast from 64-Brawl they had decent singleplayers/extra content that actually had cool callbacks/eastereggs from the franchises represented, sm4sh onwards that has been removed.

goddamn did leffen destroy him hard

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So you solely care about adventure mode or something?

This was the catalyst to melees death, prove me wrong

Wtf I thought black people were tall

No I care about the game actually being a good game with fun content to play. Ultimate is literally just rosterfaggotry to the max with no other redeeming factors and due to there being so many character they all play exactly the fucking same.

You do realize 64 only had classic, break the targets, and board the platforms right? Thats less than both smash 4 and ultimate

Break the targets alone is more fun than anything in Ultimate's singleplayer

Cool Smash 4 copypasta that was mostly wrong then and is utterly wrong now.

Plus classic, break the targets and board the platforms had no references to the respective fighter's games iirc. Hell, the only game where classic is actually a reference to anything is Ultimate, where each one is designed for the character references.

>Not moving on
I own all the Smash games and got enjoyment out of them. Ultimate is definitely better than Brawl and Tr4sh but it’s not as good as Melee, admitting this isn’t autistic.

Goku you are Dumb as a Monkey

But it IS lying.

This. If brawl was so good, why did literally everyone move on to 4? If sm4sh was so good, why did literally everyone move on to ultimate? If you just like to play the new game and move on, fine, but at least admit that's why you play the games you do. Melee players play melee because they like melee. There's the melee community, the 64 community, and the "whatever the new one is" community because deep down, we all know the newer games just aren't that good competitively.

Why are people so obsessed with Melee? Not talking about Melee players. I'm talking about people who don't play Melee who get seemingly upset that other people are enjoying it.
It's a niche community enjoying their thing. No reason to be so hostile about it.

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>smash
>soul
>best
>>Entrance = game is good

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shut the fuck up weeb

> project NX is looking promising
Yeah no. Meleefags need to get with the program and stop trying to turn every new Smash game in Melee 2.0. Also, I hope the faggot behind it gets a cease and desist from Nintendo soon.

It works both ways actually, Meleefags can't stand people enjoying other Smash games that aren't Melee or PM

Suit yourself, I still think you would like Melee if you tried it out. Just invite a couple friends over, I would leave items on low though, medium in Melee is like high in all the games after it. Speaking of which, did anyone else ever play with only home run bats on very high? Bat throwing fights were the best.

Mang0/armada/m2k stopped winning.

>Meleefags can't stand people enjoying other Smash games that aren't Melee or PM
It’s more that they just refuse to defend downgraded gameplay. Ultimate is fun but the back of jump momentum among other things would not be defended in any other fighting game community
>inb4 it’s not a fighting game
Splitting hairs.

The series becoming mugen with a prettier coat of paint after it.

>Meleefags can't stand people enjoying other Smash games that aren't Melee or PM

Based and Truthpilled! Even when something good like Ultimate comes out, there's always that one faggot that wants to turn the newest entry into Melee 2.0 all because his bitch ass can't adapt to a game where he actually has to TRY in competitive play and not rely on frame specific button presses and inputs that were never intended for Smash Bros in the first place to win.

>Niche community
It was a niche community that broke out and is slowly retracting back, these fags want it to be the only smash game and will screech and moan about ultimate at every chance. Because they miss when they were the top dogs.

Most of the shitflinging is against Meleefags these days, because the overall Smash community is so large and extremely defensive about Smash and Nintendo.
They get actually mad that someone would dare to prefer old game when new game exists.
Meanwhile, Meleefags just don't really care about newer Smash games.

I miss trophies. They had so much soul.

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Meleefags were never top dogs. It was always a small community and that was okay.

Explain how melee techs are illegitimate while Ultimate's aren't user :)
You know, the melee techs that are literally documented in official Nintendo sources and that are natural consequences of the physics system :)

It’s pretty much a straight up Kirby game

Ultimate is without question the best game in the series, it’s not even a contest

melee fucking blows, competitively or casually.
>casually
>no final smashes
>awkward movement everyone falls like they're carriyng 400 bricks

competitively
>only 5 characters are competitively viable (fox, falco, puff, peach, marth) or have obscene gimmicks that would not fly in any other game (IC's 0-death chaingrabs)
awkward trophy animations at start
>weird announcer sounds like a sports caster announcer
it's a terrible fucking game that's only better than brawl and 4, which is a low bar to clear.

The truth is Sakurai was always a hack and HAL carried smash, once they stopped working on it(melee was their last game) the series nosedived and never recovered.

Yep, and those from Ultimate are really tame in comparison with melee.

problem is the game is boring boring boring

at least melee glitches added tons of stupid and cool shit to learn and master. Ultimate, especially comp, is dry and stale as hell. Nothing is hype, nothing is cool, pros do the same shit your random elitefag does except more consistently and with better decision making but you never see that "holy fuck you can do that? moment. It's just a game of optimization.

It's ok to remove the glitches of melee, but at least add something else to compensate jesus fuck

>It's okay to remove the intended mechanics from Melee, at least add other intended mechanics

>awkward movement everyone falls like they're carriyng 400 bricks
Weight and inertia in a platform fighter? Can't have that.
>only 5 characters are competitively viable (fox, falco, puff, peach, marth)
Falcon and Pikachu recently won majors. Even so, that's on top level. For 99% of players, tiers really don't matter much.

i hate melee. i hate how luigi sounds exactly like mario which makes NO sense. i hate the dumb READDYYYGO! that makes no sense, i hate peach's weird model, i hate puff and its cancer playstyle i hate fox and his gay playstyle and shine which is retartedly strong for no fucking reason and frame 1. the balance in melee is a fucking joke compared to ultimate, where at least 70% of the cast is tournament viable, compared to melee, where it's more like 15%. plus all the cool melee characters like game and watch , metwo and roy, suck absolute dick in melee but are great in ultimate. not to mention the music selection in ultimate is far better. nostalgia can't save melee.

There aren’t any “holy fuck you can do that?” moments in melee anymore, it’s literally just a game of optimization. The only difference is melee is fucking old and been stale for almost a decade. At least ultimate has better characters

The Super Smash Bros. Fan base is the only Nintendo fan base that S0nyggers are actually right about. They claim Nintendo fans defend anything Nintendo does tooth and nail, and in the case of SSB they’re actually right. Anyone who dares prefer a game that’s not the most recent one is attacked with ad hominems, that isn’t the case with a series like Paper Mario or Zelda. You don’t have these Sticker Star fans screeching at anyone who calls the shit game a shit game. I’m just glad Ultimate is at least decent, I almost gave up on the series.

readygo is fucking amazing you stupid niggerfaggot and g&w is one of the stupidest and less cool characters in the roster

Smash Bros and Pokemon are probably the biggest offenders when it comes to Nintendo fanboyism.
But, they're both massively popular mega franchises, so it's really no wonder why they come across like that online.

the difference is it took melee 15 years to get stale, for ultimate not even a year past release

you might be 13

Nah melee has been stale for at least decade now, probably more. I will admit it’s heyday was longer than ultimate’s though

Ah yes the very stale meta with the most balanced and varied top 8 ever, the first Pikachu-won major ever, the first Falcon-won major in ten years, new techs found all the fucking time like slide off punishes which just popped up, or older techs no one explored like pivots and shield drops
Yes very stale ahaha good thing I can watch exciting Ultimate meta like a fat spic kid Vs some annoying zoner

>Ultimate meta like a fat spic kid Vs some annoying zoner
>has to resort to racist epithets
you sure showed him!

Smash Bros > FPS

Only took em 15 years to do it.

ZeRo is the Best Smash Player of all time

First week, nigger?

Okay Reddit care to tackle the rest of the post while your complementary Gold is on the way?

the series stopped being mechanically ambitious after melee and took the size over substance approach. The fact that we're 3 games later and still don't have a universal shield + b move or short hop mapping is a damn shame

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this. so much this.

>but why do people hate melee?
>meleetards playing the victim

You fuckers stink to high hell, evo's game floor showed which smashers take baths so inb4 the 3000 times disproved fake tweets meleetards love to post. You insufferable faggots attack any game you think has any more depth or complexity when much of what you faggots say can be applied to just about any game, if it is even true at all.

>melee is frame perfect

Then why don't melee players take hone every ultimate tournament prizepool with the 2 frame? It gives you one extra frame off perfect and makes recovering literally impossible for the opponent. I'll tell you why. It is because melee isn't frame perfext and in fact has the 2nd largest window to combo in smash history and compared to real fighting games the hitstun lasts half a round in melee.

>but it's just a few bad eggs

Of which no of you not only do anything about but actively support trash like leffen a top earning player in the scene.

>melee is all about offense!

Which is why the last dozen or so majors for melee have been decided by who camps harder. Including the falcon win people prase so much. That set was more cancer then every sonic set ever played.

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Another day, another round of impotent rage from melee manchildren. You were molested by Sakurai. He gave you candy(melee) then lured you into his truck(brawl) and asked you to take some special candy that was date rape drugs(smash 4) and now, finally, after the most intense rape of your sad lives, he offers you a piece of bubblegum(ultimate) and you chew on it, trying to get that taste of Sakurai's jizz out of your mouths.

But it wont come out. You just keep tasting it. And so here we are.

You pathetic bitch.

>smashfags calling other smashfags stinky

Evo has spoken, 9/10 ultimate players bath to melee's 1/10

>melee isn't frame perfext and in fact has the 2nd largest window to combo in smash
This makes no fucking sense. Different moves have different amount of hitstun. Some combos are a lot tighter than others and if you're skilled enough, you'll be able to hit the harder ones.
Did you really think this was a good argument?

>This projection
Did something very bad happen in your childhood?

>implying its not true

Just take the L already.
Being able to combo two heavy moves into each other because hitstun is so long is not a good thing.

Thank you of saying this. Meleefags can't swallow this pill

Read it again.

THANK YOU BRAWL WAS THE BEST FUCK MELLE FAGS

>tod combos are ok because I have to get lucky to pull them off when in real fighting games they are considered a result of moves having too much hitstun even if they are hard to do

You smeleetards are quite thick

Most Soul of the franchise right here

Explain how luck plays into comboing.

64 fags are people who insist that a fighting game should have combos for every character. Therefore, their game is the best because every combo can be a 0-death.
Melee fags insist that their game is universally the best in the series, despite the numerous game-breaking glitches, wobbling, and 5-character top 8. People that still play it are just like the same people that play Street Fighter II Turbo. Granted, this was the most hype game, but the community around it has dwindled down and become incredibly salty about the other smash games, ever since Brawl first came out.
Brawl fags know that they're good at the game because they're one of 6 people who actually play the game anymore.
Sm4sh fags should stop whining about melee and keep to themselves. Doesn't matter if their game is literally Brawl 2, it still has less content overall than its previous entry.
Ult fags are the nu-sm4sh fags, should stop complaining about melee and let it be. It's the fastest-growing smash scene we've seen yet, but it's not the pinnacle of hype or the one with the most soul/story. The roster is so massive that not one character can be considered bad because people would have to take the time to learn the MU. Mastering the game would take a literal decade.

>Smash
>Depth
Choose one, faggot. Press buttons, win game. Whoever can press the buttons faster is the better man.

>implying its possible to be frame perfect for an entier set

If the window if a frame perfect window, you are more or less hoping the opponent will flub a defensive option. Not that 90% of the combos you see in bracket are of that nature. Hell most frame perfect combos that melee brags about are attached to c tier and lower characters and most melee kill set ups are up throw up air or up throw rest.

At least ultimate has real tech in gfs like dragdown upair into smash attack. Better then up throw up air for God sakes.

>best single player, playable on 2 systems, best roster up to that point.

If you can't hit the very tight inputs, don't go for them. If anything, this is an argument in favour of the game, showing it has a high skill ceiling.

The 'tight inputs' are tied to either bottom of the barrel characters that you will never ever see outside a tas youtube video or your opponent flubbing defensive options and you calling him on it to extend the string, which isnt a combo btw. Most melee combos are just 2-3 hits at the end of the day and that is what you see in bracket 99% of the time.

OOT and MM aged like dogshit. Anyone who thinks they still deserve a place in the top 10 best games of all time/best zelda games is delusional and looking at them through rose-tinted glasses.

We've established is that it's difficult to hit difficult combos in Melee.
How is this an argument against the game?

Sounds like you're wearing cope tinted glasses

Removal of ground to air momentum
Landing detection got fucked up
Lack of hitstun means very few combos exist

This.

It isn't hard, you just have no reading comprehension.

>OOT and MM aged like dogshit.
Zoom the fuck away from here zoomer. OoT and MM are among the games that aged most gracefully from that entire generation, how can you even make such a stupid statement and not feel ashamed?

The funniest part is nobody even mentioned how di/sdi plays into it which gives the person getting combod options and adds to the mixups for the person performing the combo. Since ultimate di is so ass you cannot incorporate real di mixups like you can in melee. Melee is the better offensive AND defensive game, funnily enough.

>the next game will have to make cuts.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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I'm not a tourneyfag, I just love it because I'm a nostalgiafag and the weird cyberspace aesthetic it has is SOULful as fuck. Also I love break the targets.

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>It isn't hard, but 99% of players can't do it
Alright.

Roy lives, chrom dies.

They accidentally made a combat system that was rather deep when they never intended to do that.

Not him but graphically a lot of snes/gba games aged better than OOT and MM, for example Chrono Trigger and the GBA FE games still look amazing to this day while OOT looks like ass (and plays at an AWFUL framerate).

Literally anyone who goes to tournies can combo the fuck out of people who don't DI.

No, the "frame perfect" combos no one dose. At all. Most melee combos are 3 hits before simply pushing your opponent to disadvantage or outright killing them because a lot of moves have so much hitstun you can force players offstage and spike them before hitstun even stops. Melee has a circle camp meta of nickel and dime combos. get over it already.

Herp da derp

Yeah yeah everyone knows 2D sprites age better than 3D graphics but the N64 Zelda games still look fine today. And graphics aside they handle perfectly fine even by modern standards.

Also it's funny how you bring up the GBA FE games, nothing wrong with it it's just weird that you'd use them as an example of top quality 2D sprites.

>OOT looks like ass (and plays at an AWFUL framerate).
You cannot possibly not be underaged.

Born in 95, grew up playing OOT. The engine runs at 17fps on PAL for fucks sake.
The animations are what make them so charming

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>Wobbling
It's degenerate, but it's getting banned at more and more tournaments
>Rest
Rest isn't the problem with Jigglypuff's design.Those absolutely massive disjoints along with her ridiculous aerial mobility, though....
>Planking
Yeah, fuck that. More and more tournaments are enforcing a ledge-grab limit now, though.
>Peach down smash doing 60%
Only if you don't know how to DI
>Low-tiers being unplayable
At the highest level, yeah. But at mid-high level, any character could do well, not even kidding. Just look at players like Bambi(Yink) and Qerb(Mr. Game&Watch)
>Literally ban anything that doesn't fit into your perspective of how the game should be played
Yes, and that's a good thing! Why do traditional fighting games play with a certain time limit? A certain number of games to win a set? Rounds to win a game? Because the players decided it tested the laudable skills in the best way, nothing wrong with that.

Forgot
>Chaingrabbing
Yeah, it's pretty degenerate

>Only if you don't know how to DI
Based retard doesn't understand the difference between DI and CC. Just like 95% of meleeposters here, obvious stream monster that doesn't even play.

I never got the melee stinky meme, it's only newfags who say that shit, it used to be all smash niggas are stinky.
Personally speaking, most of the smell/autistic players I encountered were during smash 4. This is coming as an Ultimate player.

People forget that Melee Samus is a heavy

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Melee. No is 64 than faster. So 64 is Melee than better

For real. But what if they released
>F-Zero GX
>With functioning online gameplay
>STAGE EDITOR
>Online sharing capabilities
That would really be epic

And
>give Samus EXTENDURRRR back

I grew up with OOT and MM nigger, the mechanics and graphics aged like shit and there's no denying it. Most N64 games aged like shit.

And to add, I still play these two regardless because they're nostalgic and I find them fun. That doesn't change the fact they aged horribly.

Interesting statement, I wonder if it's true. Cool, arbitrary stuff like, being able to jump out of shine, Samus' extended grapple or tether out of airdodge stopped being implemented in later games

All we need is Smash 6 to attract pure normies, the opposite of Contrarianfags, and we're set. Smash Bros has occupied all six extremes of the Faggograph.

You can practice timings for your own frame-perfect moves. 2 framing an opponent in Ultimate also requires a read on when your opponent will go to the ledge, awareness of your opponents position relative to the ledge.

Imagine if you will a community that exists with a very aids and manchild community. Alright, how imagine this sub-community's smell, you see the average smash player is easily an incel that we know. Yet a melee player, well they start at gregor tier, and go beyond what the human language can define with mere words.

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This. Brawl is shit and is only good for mods.
cope

Caring about roster rather than gameplay.

>sub genre of party game.
ftfy

Brawl maintained overall quality with little things like trophies, minigames, etc. well, but made the game way too floaty.
After that, they tried to shill that "in the middle" bullshit to appeal to casuals and the core audience, but sacrificed gravity/momentum entire as well as those little details even Brawl got right. On top of that, everything about 4 is just plain generic. The same can be extended to Ultimate as well since it's practically the same game with even more characters.
I think Sakurai just burnt out after Brawl.

Why are you making such accusations and calling me a retard? You're just being rude for no reason. I do play. I know you'll get hit for crouch canceling down smash. Anyways, as a fast faller on low percent, you will get hit multiple times if you don't DI correctly.

>return real dashdancing
>conserve momentum between the ground and the air
>make wavelanding slide off edges
>staple on some extra hitstun
>weaken recoveries
>remove the hold buffer
If Ult did this it would be better than melee

You obviously don't. Also it sends at 140 degrees, basically as long as you aren't holding down you are good. If you REALLY want to avoid getting hit twice you have to sdi left/right or sdi down and tech (risky).

also fix the ledges/platforms

it was topped by project m

You wish. Your buttbuddies shut it down before PM hit it's peak.

But was it cool?

only bowser and rob from that list are good characters. pirahna plant is considered the worst in the game thanks to bad frame data and inconsistent moves.

how can one man be so autistic

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And yet he's still able to do well in tournaments

show proof that's it's wrong retard.

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nintendo fanboy found

that user's probably long gone by now, you oblivious, mouth-foaming meleemutt

why don't you give me proof that he's right if you agree with him?

Now find Deodorant

crazy how meleefags will praise it to the death but wont attend a tournament anymore. remember all those people screaming "melee will never die" earlier this year? theyre much quieter now

>can't say anything

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crazy how most ultimatefags use the same lines over and over on how their game is better

I'm an absolute smash casual and I've always liked Melee the most. People who say it isn't the best smash game literally haven't played it.

But silence is better than wojaks, YOU THUNDERING FAGGOT

That's great. Now comprehend that your self-absorbed little world isn't actually relevant to other people and their tastes.

i think people are astounded just how willingly people stopped giving a shit. there was this idea that because melee was old that it had transcended time but it turns out everybody got tired of it as soon as evo dropped it and a new smash game was out. then all the smell complaints at evo suddenly stopped this year in melees absence, so that doesnt bode well for them at all

This. Fuck Icons

true, i'll admit that zoomers might like ultimate more because they're too young to have played the better smash games.

thats because melee is so shit you only need to point out a couple improvements to make people want to play something else

>3ds version

play the other games if you havent

Sure thing

Edit: Wow wasn't expecting this many likes!

Smash players started forgetting to take showers lmao

then why are people still playing it

All the characters I like are dogshit in melee and I don't feel like putting in 200 hours to make them fun. L canceling is also a shitmans mechanic and anyone that unironically defends it enjoys games having more inputs for no reason.

The best part about melee is how much it makes both the FGC and other smash players seethe. Just look at this thread LOL

more and more people have stopped attending tournaments though, the data is all there user. what counts as a major for melee today is about half as many people as it was in 2016-2017. not only that but games like rivals and pm are growing because ex-meleefags have finally decided to move on

its safe to assume you like hbox for similar reasons, right?

literally who?

Melee's mechanics are only marginally better than Ultimate and Ultimate absolutely crushes Melee in Stage variety, character balance and by extension competitive variety, and in interesting movesets

so you like melee because it makes people seethe but you dont actually know anything about the melee scene? thats amazing

I enjoyed melee when I was young and sadly didn't get competitive soon enough to get into it further. then got into fighting games and it was great. Ultimate looked really solid and it plays well also. Though the smash community is fucking shit. ultimate people are just complete softies. Melee autists are just purely insufferable never try anything different in their lives and are assholes about. Imagine being a meleefag and conjuring stories like

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Out with it

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cope

I'm not him, but that greentext seems almost entirely wrong, which isn't surprising considering someone pointed out it was for Smash 4
>DI, Hitstun, Airdodge points
The DI is weaker than Melee, yeah, but DI mixups and having to change your combo based off of it are very much still a thing. Most Ultimate combo videos DO involve actual combos, like the on posted earlier in this thread, if you had bothered to watch it you would've seen a Wolf player doing a pretty sick ladder involving his Shine on a Chrom, and it was all in hitstun. Airdodges are pretty awful for escaping combos due to the extra lag now, and its pretty much only useful against characters whose combos depend on 3-5 frame links, which really isn't a lot of them
>initial dash an buffer points
Buffer, sure, I ca someone having a problem with it, but needlessly long inital dash? who do they play, Captain Falcon? Its cancellable up to frame 6, which is still plenty of time for movement mixups and spacing. Not to mention dash cancelling, which is pretty self-explanatory
>recoveries are always free
this is retarded because it's only true for absurd ones like Inkling or the Elecric Rats. Despite popular belief, going for overall safety is much better than being a retard for "hype plays", which is why edgegaurding isn't as common. Ledge-Trapping is much safer and more effective
>no recovry mixups
this is blatantly untrue if you take the time to evne look at a single match in top play. You see Joker, Wario, Pautena, Snake, Chrom, etc. mix up their recoveries all the time
>magnet hands point
Also very false, is this guy retarded? Do people not get the concept of ledge sweetspots during recoveries, ledge invincibility staling, and different ledge-hangs?
>>glitches
The Shielding thing isn't true, the macro thing is most likely intentional, and the third point is so utterly irrelevant its ridiculous. He didn't even mention landing detection, what a fucking clown
1/2

2/2
>pro players
nothing to do with the game, but Leffen is a bitch baby and Hbox is a huge faggot, AmSa is the choke king and Mang0 is a washed-up drunkard
>momentum
I will give you this one, but this was almost entirely done for balancing. People want ot forget, but Sonic was fucking awful to fight in PM before 3.5 effectively neutered him. If PM,the most balanced smash game before Ultimate, had to fucking destroy a character due to how they interacted with the game's mechanics, then something needs to go, and its not the character
>movement in neutral
So we're forgetting attack cancelling, pivot boosting, parrying, tomahawks, and the variety of character specific tech (Snake Sliding, Desynchs for Rosa & Icies, Swede Swapping, etc.)
>lack of intersting moves
???
What even is this point? You think the game should have ridiculous shit like Shine? That move was legitimately one of the the only "too powerful" moves in the series.
Outside of that, there are tone of moves with unique properties or interactions, like Lucas' Zair, Joker's Grappling Hook, Palutena's Warp, Zelda's Phantom, Wario's Bike, etc.

Wow my thread is still up, I dont even play melee lol

It is overrated.

#MeleeorBust
Feels so good seeing people recognize shitimate is a fad

If you mod it