Smash vs other fighting games

So, are musicians all autists too?

>implying smash isn’t also full of autists
If anything I’d argue there’s even more in the smash scene

Smash Bros is homogenized as fuck, which is why they keep introducing bullshit gimmicks. You can only do so much with such a simple system.

Smash Bros exists to save the fighting game genre

yeah but other fighting games have things like
Mai Shiranui's fat fucking titties holy shit my cock do the big explodey
smash bros has morio hes gay lol

The fighting game genre has always been a very varying, very deep facet of gaming. Its popularity is minuscule in comparison to other genres like say sports or shooting games, while its fans tend to be dedicated and practically religious. Not everybody likes fighting games though. In numerous polls and summaries, the fighting game genre was found to be least popular; Even less popular than RPGs. But why is this?

Is it because of the raw, no hand-holding competitive nature of the game play? I think not. Why? Well because the undisputed best selling genre of video games is Shooting games and the majority of those are competitive, so we cannot say its because the masses can’t stand a little competition.

The answer, ladies and gentleman, is the difficulty curve. If you’ve ever played a shooting game, you can pick up Call of Duty and compete. If you’ve ever played a football game, you can pick up Madden and compete. However, if you’ve played every fighter to date, you will probably still get decimated when you first pick up BlazBlue to the fullest extent. The same can be said about Street Fighter or Tekken.

There is a very good reason for this. To compete at an adequate level in fighting games requires a level of patience so extensive that you may as well play nothing but said game for days at a time. You may spend more time in practice learning commands and combos than you will ever spend competing, and this, I think, has become a relevant blockade in the evolution of the genre. While I in no way denounce the need to familiarize yourself with each game’s systems and mechanics, I do think that a long, hard look needs to be taken at the way we traditionally play fighting games.

Yeah actually.

>Button combos for abilities are an outdated concept to make arcade machine games. Smash dumped that out of the window because, guess what, controllers have more than just 2 buttons and a stick

True

Yes.

>Smash vs other fighting games
>Smash
>categorized as a fighting game

Why do you people do this? Why do you lie to yourselves? You, yourselves, admit that you can't play fighting games because they're too difficult for you to play and you can't wrap your heads around any of the concepts you need to understand to play against someone else... yet you cling to this LARP that you're playing "a fighting game" when you're bouncing Donkey Kong around with Luigi in Smash.

Smash is not a fighting game and should never be compared to one. It's a party game about trying to bounce cartoons off of a screen.

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I agree with you on the memorization bit. Playing a "regular" fighter, you can't really just pick a character and be effective without looking through their movelist and remembering all of their moves whereas with smash every character has the same inputs save for a few exceptions.

>In Smash Bros you don't need good memory and concentration and any special combinations
Smash and some other 2D/3D fighters are definitely easier to jump into if we're talking casual play. Pop it on, people mash and have a blast. Even in those though you're going to need good memory, concentration and some amount of autism to rise above babby play.

>Why do you people do this?
More money for Nintendo

they know that while smash is a "platformer fighting game" they forget it's a platformer first and fighting second, while other fighting games are fighting first [subgenre] second

>categorized as a fighting game
Of course Smash is

>DPs would be broken. They’re a balancing mechanism. You just have to get used to it.
DP? Used to what?

Yes, and what is DP?

Agreed. Not-Smash-Fighting-Games are totally for autists.

>Modern fighting games are just nostalgia money farms, change my mind.
Yep, and they suck. Except Smash (cool).

Comparing Smash to a fighting game is an insult to smash, which is actually fun and interesting

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I think I'm tired of smash when I lose I get angry when I win I feel nothing, I went and played bbtag last night and I had so much more fun

Please tell me you're joking that you've never heard of the term DP before. If you're not it stands from Dragon Punch. An invincible reversal. You know, like Ryu's Shoryuken. DP's are a risk/reward thing. You do it, and if the opponent gets hit, your reward is that you get them off of you and take your turn. Risk is that if it gets blocked, your opponent gets a free combo on you. Worst case they can tear you a new asshole if they know what they're doing.

I'd argue that smash is more autistic than anything. Hell, you only need to take a look at the threads about rosterfagging.

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dragon punch aka z-motion, aka 623P
normally when you block you press back, and when you dragon punch you need to stop blocking for at least three frames to input the motion "forward, down, down-forward"(which can be bad if you mis-time it), after which you become invincible for the duration of the attack.
being able to dragon punch at the press of one button is fucked but not as fucked as Guile's Sonic Boom and Zangief's circle-motion inputs being mapped to one button, mostly for the same "input difficulty makes move balanced" reasons

WHY IS Yea Forums SO FUCKING SHIT AT FIGHTING GAMES

>what is DP
double penetration, something fighting game players can do alone unlike smash basedboys who need two people for it

Please tell me you guys are just ironically shit posting and not this retarded

>You, yourselves, admit that you can't play fighting games because they're too difficult for you to play

YES. It's only for robots with fast hands and fast memory. The majority of the world, and kids, can't play such diffucult games. That's why the fighting genre was dying. Now, Smash Ultimate is elevating the fighting genre to a new high. It's the FIRST fighting game to sell 14 million units. A small number. That's when you see fighting genre was always NOT POPULAR because SF and others were/are difficult to play and were ruining the fighting genre. Smash is here to rise up the fighting genre as it always deserved.

Saki has filp flopped over smash being a fighting game several times. I imagine its one of the many reasons he wants so many options in the game customization.

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>why is Yea Forums so shit at videogames
gee i dunno it's almost like nobody here plays any games and just shitposts about politics and other meaningless shit all day

Thank you for being the only intelligent being in a group of autists

EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD IS SHIT AT NORMAL FIGHTING GAMES, BECAUSE SPECIALS AND COMBOS ARE TOO DIFFICULT TO PERFORM

>something fighting game players can do alone
how?

I miss ghost of marvel past, I wonder if he ever came back to EVO

We are all serious here.

>a z-motion is too difficult
>halfcircle is too difficult
please tell me you're joking. i play on keyboard and suck ass but even i can do it.
the only truly difficult input i know of is the pentagram from arcana hearts and only because you can't cheese it with a double circle input

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That's fucking bullshit. I could throw hadoukens and do the occasional DP when I was a kid. If fucking brolylegs can do it I can't see why you can't.

youtube.com/watch?v=s1MYSgy4QMw

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I'm not joking. I'm also bad at math. But I'm good at Smash.

but smash combos are harder than fighting game combos. I don't get it.

saved

Melee combos are harder. Smash has almost no combos

>That's fucking bullshit. I could throw hadoukens and do the occasional DP

Can every kid in the world perform these hadoukens? Because a game developer needs money, and kids are not gonna buy a difficult game they can't win any fight or defeat some bosses.

git gud smashfag, the reason most people play actual fighting games is because they want a true challenge.

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>Smash has almost no combos
which is exactly what makes it harder

not to mention having to do shit like RAR just to get the correct button to come out. and god help you if you have tap-jump muscle memory from being a kid.

this is why the communities need to be split apart

you got autistic retarded manbabies who can't bathe on one side and fighting games on the other

... You don't need to remember something like this " < < x ^ v y a a b < > " in Smash to perform any combo or any special

uhh, yes you do

>which is exactly what makes it harder

>yet actual fighting games are too hard to play at all

?

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>>yet actual fighting games are too hard to play at all
but they aren't. only you seem to be having this issue.

you seem to have muddled the definitions of harder and easier.

>play a fighting game
>confirm a hit
>get to do my combo now

>play smash bros
>confirm a hit
>am now at the mercy of a physics engine + DI influence to be able to land any proper followup to it and they can just aerial dodge or fast-fall out etc etc

>but they aren't. only you seem to be having this issue.
Then why make a whole thread complaining about it?

if you can't do combos in fighting games just git gud at neutral. if you win neutral 100% of the time you don't need combos, and if you can't win neutral then you're a scrub who needs to git gud
also RAR is IAD-level of difficult, which ranges from "not very" to "very not" depending on the player's expertise

smash isn't a fighting game. there is no cross-over appeal between traditional fighting game players and smashers.

>if you can't do combos in fighting games just git gud at neutral.
what the fuck are you talking about, where did i say that

Don't worry. The Smash Community will englobe and absorb every fighting game community within a few years. And this is will make the fighting game genre becomes great. You should be glad.

DACUS
Chaingrabs especially in brawl
Wobbling
Smash ultimate footstool Ice climbers tilt grabs
Luigi's old zero to daeth
Jigg's rest setups
Pacman hydrant setups
Mac Smash 4 KO punch restands
Smash 64 Fox upsmash infinite setup
Smash 64 anything honestly
Ryu and Ken in Smash ult (ironically enough)

It's okay to pretend you haven't played the game and you're just shitposting for fun.

This is the most "I AM SILLY" shit in the world, but at least it doesn't have an autistic Author self insert telling you he's right and is just the author himself.

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it's not that hard
also it prevents kids from playing the game

By sticking two fight sticks in their ass

Smash is the first fighting game to sell 14 million units. The Biggest fighting game until now. Wake up.

>smash has no combos thus it is harder
said you. to which i say fighting games can also have no combos if you want them to. it's called not using combos and just winning using neutral.

And then at some point you notice that most moves in fighting games follow the same patterns and are pretty easy to learn.
Quarter-circle + button press
semicircle + button press
sometimes but rarely full circle + button press
Do a Z on the stick + button press
Move left (down) and hold, release to right (up) + button press
And now you're good enough in at least King of Fighters or Guilty Gear to play on your couch with friends, if you have any.
I know there are more nuances in high-level play

smashies would really rather grind out peach turnip z-drop combos than learn to move their thumbs in a quarter-circle motion which takes all of about 30 seconds to understand

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That's funny considering smash only has 2 buttons.
All you have to do is look at Ryu. They packed in a lot of his moves that he actually has, but to perform them you have to rely on how hard to press down on the buttons rather than what button is pressed when.

Seeing it as outdated really doesn't make sense considering that with all the movement options and tech that the community discovered in Smash, the inputs performed are about equal if not greater than the average fighting game. Especially in Melee. But even in Smash Ultimate.
Traditional fighting games being incredibly hard compared to smash isn't very true, the only difference is the barrier of entry.

smash isn't a fighting game. it's moving units but it's not fighting, it's platformer.

smash players kek

Ryu is so fucking clunky in Smash Bros. They really tried to do something interesting and it failed hard. I hate playing as him. Different pressure strengths for button presses? What is this, fucking SF1? It sucks to play, man. I already dislike the distinction between tilts and smashes, and this shit takes it up a notch. It's so unsatisfying to play. I was excited for Ryu but I never play him. Hopefully Terry's 4-button style translates a bit cleaner to Smash.

Yeah.. but.... I'm a smash dude, and... I don't need another man to penetrate a woman while I'm penetrating her. Also, Johnson should never meet Johnson.

Most fighting game commands other than things like Deadly Rave or Summon Suffering are easy to remember and depending on the fighting game often easy to input. Smash has its own difficulties, though

Smash isn't a fighting game posters are all retards anyway so it fits.
>Smash isn't a fighting game
>Sure it is
>UH NO IT ISNT YOU FUCKING NINTENDIE SEETH COPE HAVE SEX DILATE TRANNY
This is how 99% of these threads go.

>Johnson should never meet Johnson.

And two dongs don't make a right.

Even David Cage cinematic games have quarter circle and half circle motions
So does the Skate series.

People just don't know what they're doing. The hardest part about fighting games aren't hard inputs or combos. It's remembering how to utilize them in a moments notice. What makes BlazBlue so difficult is all of the mechanics

I find Ryu/Ken to be pretty easy since most their lights chain and you're generally expected to end the string with the heavier button. Most combos end up being some variation of (tap A tap A, hold A, special)

I hope all you fuccbois complaining about inputs play blade strangers. Literally has button+direction specials

I think it's more of a description of a cultural divide than anything. Case in point, when fucking everyone was going nuts over Sans, while Terry was met with a "Who?" Like, the typical player of Smash does not give a shit about the FGC as a whole, they care about Smash.

Terry is important to FG history and culture, and the fact that people didn't give a shit or were condescendingly "giving him a chance". is bullshit. If any other fighter gets an SNK character it's all hype. Smash? You'll get neutral "looking forward to it" kind of shit at best.

>If any other fighter gets an SNK character it's all hype
I don't know about you or anyone else, but I wasn't very hype to find out about Terry in Fighting EX Layer

>Smash is the only acceptable fighting game, and WAY WAY way better to play.
Git gud faggot.

I was :)

smash faggots like to think theyre doing ebic combos because of how hard autists pushed melee but youre riding on those autist's coat-tails.
you are nothing but inadequate, fat, piles who can only hope to god you're displaying any real skill why you make mouth-breathing posts like the OP -- all the while you cant play the games youre trying to say are easier.
>TL;DR
youre a joke

This is the problem with instruments (not the triangle) they have all these notes you need to play melodies and chords. you need good memory and concentration. & you need these chords to play a song. with a triangle you don't need good memory and concentration and any note combinations. the triangle is the only acceptable instrument, and WAY WAY way better to play.

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Geese in Tekken. Fuck, even fem Terry in that one game got hype.

There's literal examples of exactly what I'm talking about that happened recently.

But that's exactly why triangle is harder to play.

>play normal instrument
>play one note
>now get to play other notes

>play triangle
>play one ting
>now at the mercy of not knowing when to ting again

I would like fighting games more if the community was better. I'm good enough at under night, which people touted as the friendliest community currently out, but it's filled with the exact same types you'd find in GG or Tekken.

under night is the weebiest of the weeb unfortunately.

Well second weeb, if you're in a terrible spot to be in the american hub of melty (like me), then you have the bottom of the barrel unless you're even more unfortunate to have an arcana heart scene

great people, way too weeb

no one wants to play with the whining pussy fag

>same types
>friendliest community
Did you hear that from twitter/discord or Yea Forums? Because the majority of the community for the former are memeing retards while the people on Yea Forums for under night actually play it.

tekken has the worst community by far. they're the new SF4fags.

I was a percussionist in college and triangle is one of the hardest instruments on a purely psychological level
>nothing is ever easy
>if you think it's easy, you pass it off as not being worth your full effort
>when you don't give it your full effort, you lose focus
>when you lose focus, you fuck up the basic things that you passed off as being too easy
>fucking up on the triangle is vastly more noticeable than fucking up on any other instrument in the entire ensemble

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The majority of under night fags are whining pussies. It's why the community is so fucking bad.
I heard it from Yea Forums which is why I decided to buy the game in the first place.

I hated the xylophone and chimes because at least with a piano I can feel the keys in my fingers but having to use sticks to play notes really fucked me up compared to hitting beats with the snare

That’s all Auxilary percussion. Crash cymbals, especially.

Then play with Yea Forums, even they know that a vast majority of the outside community are awful degenerate shills

>college band
>getting psyched out by a triangle
ask me how I know you have the 'tism

He’s not really talking about Triangle specifically. He’s talking about Aux percussion mostly, things like crash cymbals.

>fucking up on the triangle is vastly more noticeable than fucking up on any other instrument in the entire ensemble
god youre stupid

Smash isn't a fighting game since they prefer malrare cult characters over actual fighting game characters

>Play with Yea Forums
>Lobbies start at 1am
>Have to work at 7am
>They don't do threads on days I can actually join in

>can do all the moves
>get your shit pushed in because you don't know when to use them
Newsflash dumbass, being able to do all the moves doesn't mean a fucking thing. You still suck.

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just make your own lobbies at the time you can play

everyone between the ages of 3-11 knows how to do all the moves in Smash

>unist tranny implying someone else is a whiny pussy faggot

>Smash vs other fighting games
>other

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The claves are the worst, on top of being on top, you can't hold them too hard which dulls the sound, but you also have to hit them hard enough to produce sound, and the sound gets absorbed by literally everything so you have to hold them in aposition where nothing can stop the sound.

I will never touch the claves again

I'd agree with you if we were talking anywhere else but here.

Everyone between the ages of 3-11 will lose horribly the instant they're against someone who vaguely knows how to use said moves.
In the end you're in the exact same position as you would be with a real fighting game.

Honestly fuck the Claves. They’re more annoying than anything.

Shit outta luck then

You say that but then you have grand finals with children at "major" tournies.

melee is the only good smash game competitively

If "physical execution hindering the player from doing what they intend to" is so bad, go play something turnbased like chess, then you won't make execution errors. You can't seriously tell me that even in Smash, that the impresiveness of high level play isn't also partially because of execution, like "wow that was hard to pull off".

Every single realtime game has execution and the people who complain about it only want it removed to the extend that they don't have to feel bad about themselves.

Smash is more about degrees of freedom in movement & risk v reward as manifest in the knock-back mechanic.

if you're playing smash past the age of 11, you're not a person, you're an un-wrangled retard.

Yeah, you get them at fighting games too. What's your point? They put in effort to get where they are, which is what really separates people in fighting games

It's hard to be hype about anyone when there's already over 70 amazing characters in the game.
also for all this talk about people hating on Terry, I barely see any whining at all. Just people talking about how other people are whining.

Personally I find him to be a fine addition for smash even if he never was my favorite SNK character

>you get them at fighting games too
Show me one example of 3-11 year old kids making it to grand finals in a major.

>Tfw we will never get another game with fight night style inputs
That shit was kino

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Add startup lag
WOW PROBLEM SOLVED

>he can't commit QC and DP motions to memory
how sad

>mfw smash players unironically call mixups "guessies"

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I get what you mean, but I'm not saying that people were hating on Terry. I'm saying that they didn't fucking care, especially compared to a fucking Mii Costume.

That's my point, there was this condescending attitude about it too, the same attitude that cropped up when Pearl and Marina were announced for Splatoon 2, when everyone immdiately loved Marina and shat on Pearl. A group of people didn't want to be part of the group that shat on Pearl so they started liking her because of that. It's the exact same thing with Terry, when it should just bey hype.

If Smash was actually culturally integrated with the FGC, more people would care about Terry. It's the m,ost obvious cultural divide in the world, and it's at the core of why people say Smash isn't a Fighting Game. Becuase Smash players, overall, don't play other Fighting Games.

And no, it isn't hard to be hype about anyone when there are already 70 characters, look at the reaction to Sans who isn't even a character.

>In Smash Bros you don't need good memory and concentration and any special combination
You're trying to make this sound like a positive, but instead you're making it sound like Smash is for lower intelligence people.

stop making shit up

But it is. Smash is fun because it has a low barrier for entry, not because of its depth, especially when for "serious" game modes they just play on a platform with with all the items disabled. It's like saying fortnite is as deep as CS

they're not broken in crosstag though

They aren't, its a turbo casual filter. There are games with low execution/one button specials(like Pokken, Rising Thunder, DBFZ) and casuals still get their shit stomped in.

Whining about special move inputs is a huge shitter cope, stick to movie games if actually pressing buttons with simple motions is too hard for you

false. they're broken but so is a lot of other things. so they're as broken as the rest of the game, which makes them balanced.
this sorta balance will not work for grounded games like Street Fighter

>tfw one button charge specials in the 3DS version of SFIV
Shit was hilarious

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Smash doesn't use those inputs because it's a platform fighter and not because "muh outdated" shit. Smash is a game where movement is king. Unlike traditional fighters where space is limited, Smash has a lot of space to work with and thus, your movement speed and options are great. You need them to outplay your opponent and keep them off the stage. This is why Smash's inputs are simple(barring Ryu's gimmick of course), they let you keep your momentum and be on your opponents toes. Smash doesn't need it's moves be balanced out by inputs like in traditional fighters because your movement options make you hard to hit and even when hit, there's DI that adds even more layers of mindgames.
Zangief, if he were in Smash, needs his SPD to be single button or he is straight up useless and can't even keep up with the others.
Conversely, Zangief needs his SPD to be a 360 motion in trad fighters because of the limited space and nature of them. Being able to walk forward and do SPD on a dime is too broken for traditional fighters and yet it's a must for platform fighters.
Smash nad traditional fighters, while being in the same genre, differ greatly from each other mechanically, that by complaining about inputs you might as well be saying, why isn't FFT an RTS or vice versa.

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The barrier to entry for Smash is low but it's actually deeper than 90% of fighting games. Most people are brainlets and don't understand that from a decision making standpoint a game where you deal with 10x the variability in positioning is objectively, mathematically more complicated.

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>Memory
Muscle memory, the same you use to master the tedious art of mopping an entire school hall or peeling 5000+ potatos per day
Dont compare your brainless activity with actual real memory

Cross tag DPs are balanced in the way that it's also tied to pushblock so you can easily bait a DP into a fuck you combo by baiting push block so that DP will come out instead

>Difficult Combinations to do special attacks
>236P to do a fireball is difficult
This is why the fighting game community doesnt come here and talk to you brainlet. I guess Fight Games are too big brain for you

I really hate fighting games.

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muscle memory is deeply integrated into how you make decisions on the fly and react to situations you identify with your yomi. You are a moron who barely understands what it means to play a fighting game and I think you should keep your simple opinions to yourself.

This is fairly correct but this reads like you took a transcript of a YouTube video

This.

What Smash has that other normal Fight Games doesnt is it's pretty much Extreme Footsies. Because your movement options are so liberal when compared to normal fighting games basic moves will have different utility depending on your position.

This also hurts smash tho because you get characters with better movement and speed, turning it into an insane character read that makes you have to be aware of your position to the other character to an extreme degree.

Spacing =/= Footsies, entry-level chump.

You know what I'm saying. Stop being a faggot.

As someone who plays smash and also a bit of guilty gear:
The special inputs are not hard. Nobody with half a brain has trouble inputting a dp or a half circle or whatever. The thing that makes traditional fighters hard that smash doesn’t have is that in smash, it is safe to be constantly throwing out safe moves and shield whatever the opponent is throwing out. It’s a bit mindless a lot of the time you are in neutral. From my experience I’m guilty gear, you have to think a lot more about when to use certain moves and when to commit and which block to use or when to rc or whatever.
Also the timing for a lot of combos, even normal bnb stuff is way stricter than smash. Smash tends to have really easy to perform combos, with the trade off being that you have to account for character weight and % and rage mechanic and all that.
Or maybe it’s just me and I’m just bad at gg cause I havent played it as long.

As usual, the only post that makes sense in this echo box full of smash babies is ignored.

you don't have an actual argument as to why they're wrong so you resort to semantics. Nice.

Every famous musician was autistic.

The fact that you don't think these things exist or are important in traditional fighters tells me you are a complete brainlet scrub. Movement and spacing separates the men from the boys.

Sounds about right as well.

>muh foosies
>muh evo moment 37
Fuck off smashfag, the debate on whether or not smahs was a fighting game was only relevant until Brawl came out, everything else is party games for basedboy manchildren.

No, this isn't chess. This isn't a thinking or strategy game, you're just pressing buttons and whoever reacts faster and presses the same combination over and over quickly again wins.
>Yomi
WIFOM but less psychological and more mechanical as a normal person should expect
>He jump, now I must press this combination of buttons to win
>He did move B, now I must press this combination of buttons to counter
I bet a first person shooter would be like a goddamn unsolvable puzzle for your retarded manchild brain if you find 2d games complex

>good memory and concentration
are you special needs?

I don't think they're an outdated concept, but I think its a shame that they've become the ONLY way to make fighting games.

>Spacing doesnt matter in fighting games
Oh...your one of those "big combos are all you need" morons. If you dont think space awareness of your opponent and their moveset matters, then you clearly just play for fun.

Just because I defend Smash doesnt mean I dont agree with toy. I was literally saying another anons point was correct.

Did you read my post at all breh? I was saying those things are extremely important in fighting games

>its another smashfag doesnt get how fighting games works episode
>Its another FGCucks get baited for hours trying to explain how fighting games work for people who refuse to get it episode

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You're creating a strawman. These things exist in other fighters. Smash has more going on with positioning than other games and that's an important fact shitposters fail to acknowledge. People who jerk themselves off as being a part of the FGC and shit on Smash instead of just appreciating all fighting games are the real posers

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my 12 (i think?) year old brother can do specials and supers and likes to play fgs casually
he's no pro and can't do combos, but he still has fun playing vs cpu

I dont care if you agree with me.
You have, by your choice of buzzwords, proven that you are a beginner speaking openly about things you know very little about.

Then I dont think you got the context of my post. I AGREE with you. I was applying it to smash and point out one negative about it in regard to characters who are just faster than others make things like good moveset and other design aspects meaningless.

>uses a common term everyone in the fight game community and some casuals know
>get trigger and not actually debate or comment on the post
Have sex.

this image makes no sense. fighting game motions are easy as piss and youre a brainlet if you cant do them. reminder: there is a dude who is incapacitated from the neck down and he plays Chun Li and plays with about 90% accuracy with his mouth.

Casuals can play fighting games just fine. I'm a casual a shoryuken input makes sense, its easy to do. I dont play online alot but I play with my friends. But I dont get things like frame data advantage or character matchups or whatever. People who complain about fighting game inputs are dumber then casuals.

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I think what's hurting traditional fighting games is that fancy combos went from the highest source of damage to the ONLY source of damage.

Things like Tekken 3 or Street Fighter 2 or Virtua Fighter 2 were hugely popular because even the basic shit still did a lot of damage, so even novices didn't feel like they were wasting their time. We gotta go back to short combo + high damage.

you're splitting hairs on concepts that are the same here. I honestly believe that you have to be trolling because otherwise it's really sad that you've compartmentalized the way you think about things enough to end up with this backwards fucking opinion. Chess is about calculation, if you play a 1 minute bullet game the way you play is very different because the actual back and forth of the game is about how you expend a limited resource (time) to make decisions. The format of other adversarial games demands the same thing, you have a limited frame of time to calculate the best decision and whoever makes the strongest choice repeatedly will gain an advantage that can be converted into a further advantage. Your "skill" is a representation of how effectively you are able to call on that mental rolodex of situations you've been in or understand to play the strongest move at any given time. You're drawing retarded lines in the sand when all games rely on the same fundamental concepts that have driven games for thousands of fucking years

Do you also compare Mario Party to Civilization? Just because they share the same broadest defined genre doesn't mean they're not apples to oranges. Sounds like you're getting butthurt and feeling left out because of your learning disability.

If ya'll actually gave a shit about fighting games and thought about them on anything but the most surface level you wouldn't have this shitty opinion. Maybe read what some people have to actually say in this thread and engage with them instead of dumping your surface level opinion

I want to go back to this.

This is bait. Smash doesn't demand memorizing to execute moves but it still demands memorizing combo strings and matchups and shit. Also other fighting games can't benefit as much from Smash's simple controls due to more restrictive movement and means of scoring KOs. You'd just be left with less moves and less things to think about.

And my retarded casualfag friends don't even really know how to play Smash Bros. It's identical to how they play other fighting games regardless of control scheme. They find one thing that works one time for a character and that's all they do. The only thing that disguises that fact is the presence of items and stage hazards, so they can stay interested. Make them actually try to use their character's tools and it's the exact same experience as playing a "real" fighting game.

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So you're saying everything is a fighting game.

Deep.

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Samurai shodown sounds like the game for you. And honestly any game can be this if you just block and dodge well enough. When I started off playing Tekken I won my fights with good poking and guarding.

It's a good post, user!

Smash Bros makes it almost impossible to do the most retarded thing people love to do and get afraid of in other fighters, that is to immediately check out what is the most optimal combos they should be doing and either shit a brick right there or attempt to work backwards from that instead of learning the fucking characters movelist first.

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this

I hope at least we could agree that MK is the worst fighting game.
>unfinished and rushed
>no qt girls
>lootbox galore
>on-disc dlc
>shit plot, which is the only thing the series had left
>woke and cringe

You know what's weird, and I dont know why, but Terumi from Blazblue might be the first character where everything 100% clicked for me. He's basically this Rushdown/blow all your meter character that I've never seen replicated in a game like he was done. Granted, that game's characters were all over the fuck place but it bums me more characters arent like that.

I'll give SamShow a shot. Is there a big community for it or is it just a fad fighting game?

what about panicking and fumbling your inputs
you can't simulate that

to me headshots in fps are harder to consistently pull off, but i've never seen a single soul complaining about them

Why the fuck do Smashfags do this? Always acting like traditional fighters are outdated and Smash is the superior choice. Both of them can co-exist. Fuck off with this nonsense.

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Is that supposed to be dismissive? It's not that everything is a fighting game it's that the basic nature of almost all competition is the same. If you want to talk shit come back at me with an actual argument

...I'm making a joke user. Not everyone here is out to prove your wrong and call you some kind of fag. Lol

Holy shit you people are stupid

Christ, and you wonder why people laugh at Smashfags.

That's how I feel about it. But I see constant hordes of retards who ree about how Smash isn't a real fighting game who are just beyond fucking wrong

I'm sorry. The person I was responding to was kind of a cunt and I'm not used to dealing with people here who aren't being directly hostile or trolling

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Remember when they cried about the Smash Box and banned a controller solely on the fact that the layout makes it easier to play competitively? Cuz I do and the salt is still filling shakers to this day.

anyone who thinks move inputs are "arbitrary" is a fucking dumbo and I'm sick of having to write paragraphs about this shit. I might just become that guy who posts
>Yea Forums talking about fighting games
in every thread

fact: inputs are integral to a moves balance and you cannot take them away without stripping away depth

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>or is it just a fad fighting game?
I thought it was just a fad that SNK was trying to quickly pushout for a quick buck but when I saw it at EVO there was a bunch of well known players like alex valle, Jwong and of course Infiltration. I plan to get the game once it comes out on steam so I did some research, the game was made with the help of the esports community and dedicated older fans, which helped get a spot at evo and somehow managed to get the 4th most popular game there so I'd say the fanbase will last another year or two. I think once kof15 comes out the snk fans will move to there.

git gud

uhh, like just add delay?

Fighting game is a very broad term that can be used for alot of games. Smash is a fighting game, Street Fighter is a fighting game, Tekken is a fighting game, fucking Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi is a fighting game. They're all fighting games just different kinds of one just like how they'res different kinds of platformer and rpgs so we shouldn't be anal about what is or isn't a fighting game. The people who complain about Smash not being a fighting game are just a bad as OP's twitter tier hot take.

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Thank you user.

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just turn the 2-frame SPD's into 20 frame SPD's it's so simple senpai

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>only acceptable fighting game
Nothing inherently wrong with difficult move execution. I get preferring smash for the lower execution barrier, but I’m not about to say it’s the only acceptable fighting game just because it’s easier to do the moves you intended to

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>you're splitting hairs on concepts that are the same here.
No, that's where you're absolutely wrong and shows you've not bother to reas my reply and reconsider if fighting games are complex
>I honestly believe that you have to be trolling because otherwise it's really sad that you've compartmentalized the way you think about things enough to end up with this backwards fucking opinion.
It saddens me to see there are individuals who have specialized their "skills" on pressing buttons and think it's a deep matter
>Chess is about calculation, if you play a 1 minute bullet game the way you play is very different because the actual back and forth of the game is about how you expend a limited resource (time) to make decisions.
Finally, the only part of your argument that's actually true and I agree.
Chess, FPS and fighting games play difference since... well, they are different in both complexity and mechanics. And yt you insist to not get the point of my argument.
Fighting games are muscle memory + fast reactions. There's no real strategy, you've a very very limited set of moves and spaces to play.
>The format of other adversarial games demands the same thing, you have a limited frame of time to calculate the best decision and whoever makes the strongest choice repeatedly will gain an advantage that can be converted into a further advantage.
Yes, good to know you understand basic fundamentals of adversarial games
Your "skill" is a representation of how effectively you are able to call on that mental rolodex of situations you've been in or understand to play the strongest move at any given time. You're drawing retarded lines in the sand when all games rely on the same fundamental concepts that have driven games for thousands of fucking years
Yep respecting fighting videogames. That's the skill you need for a fighting game, but your lack of reading comprehesion is already pretty much established at this point.

Smash isn't a fighting game because they don't want to be a part of the fighting game community. They have no intention of ever being a part of it. Keep them separate.

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The term is broad that doesnt mean it's limitless
The playerbase and entrants in tourneys, mainly evo shows this every year, smash is segregated by a lot and it's not like the other side saying ''uh no smelly guys here please'', both sides do not match in the first place
Only people who claim smash is a fighting game are those who fucking seek validation with the game they are playing because they are not playing for fun in the first place and should be discarded

Smash players do not want to be in the FGC. Therefore not a fighting game.

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Simple census.

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You can still be a fighting game but not be a part of the FGC. I dont give a shit about smash either but I dont see why it isn't a fighting game.

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That's because you're a moron who can't separate a community from a label. gb2smashboards

The main game is extremely different and people tend to forget all that because %95 of the things are banned
Just because they decide to limit themselves a lot to play differently doesnt change what the game is, and even then the platforming aspect takes a more important part than the fighting directly

youtu.be/m_KEtL3WQeI

>SMASH IS A FIGHTING GAME!
>So who's Terry Bogard?

Because nothing in Smash requires execution or has that possibility of input error, everyone can do whatever move they want whenever they want. This means players can do the most optimal move over and over. This means Smash games often boil down to being an evasive little nigger, spamming your best option a few feet away from the enemy, and your enemy will do the same. The both of you will flail around this way until you or your opponent gets bored; then you hit them with this optimal move and do your combo, which, because because Smash isn't complex, you will do perfectly. Then you repeat the process.

This is what every Smash game boils down to. At least in other fighting games your opponent has the chance of fucking up their move, even at high level play, which creates an opening.

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When did people started to use the 'numbers as direction' notation? I have always seen people using arrows or back/forward. This autistic friend I have got into fighting games last year and it is absolutely obnoxious.

Imagine thinking that a qcf is a "difficult combination to use the special attacks"

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>2 quarter circles + P is complex
I don't even play fighters and this is something i could easily do within 2 minutes of playing the game, probably shorter if I had a fightstick

>people argue against fucking DP inputs
>nobody says anything about actual autism inputs like the fucking pretzel input

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Melee has a shit ton of room for flubs

you cant be this fucking stupid into thinking that melee doesn't require insane execution, you have to be baiting. the insane execution barrier is most of the reason that makes it so hard to even get into melee

It's an easy universal way to notate specials because some moves don't have easy abbreviations like DP and QCF. It also helps bypass the language barrier when reading combo documents.

this

>frame data advantage
when you hit someone and they block, they are in blockstun, recovering from the hit they just blocked; and at the same time, your move is in the backswing, aka the recovery frames
frame advantage is blockstun minus backswing, so if it's positive you get to do a move again faster than the opponent, and if it's negative then the reverse applies
for example, say there's a jab move that both players have access to, it's +1 on block. if after the jab is blocked and both opponents try to do that jab as soon as they're out of their recovery/blockstun, then the first attacker will counterhit the blocker. if the attacker uses a different move, with 1 or 2 extra frames of startup, then he will get hit
core-a did a good segment on this in youtube.com/watch?v=riGCdE6ZPck&feature=youtu.be&t=498

>character matchups
character A has an easier answer to character B's key move X than other characters, but also lacks an easy answer to B's move Y, so B players playing against character A are more likely to do move Y than X if they're smart

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I first saw it with Dustloop. Makes understanding inputs super easy.

you can button mash casually with friends or even against bad random
a high skill ceiling isn't bad, especially if it has a low skill floor too
retard

>frame data advantage

there's hitstun and blockstun

When you hit someone with a move they're in "hitstun" (the state of being hit) for a certain number of frames. Same shit with block stun. Different moves have more or less hitstun or blockstun. The amount of +/- frames means how fast the attacker can move compared to the defender/guy being hit. If my move is + 5 on block, if you block it, I get 5 frames to do what I want after the move is done recovering while you are still in a blocking animation.

and what about other moves
like Sol Badguy's Tyrant Rave. it's, in essence, a wind-up and a real fuckhuge punch. and so the input references this in being a quartercircle back, with a swift dash forward and the heaviest, hardest-hitting attack button, or in numpad notation 632146+H
removing this from the move would remove the soul of the move. a similar case can be made for many other moves that you can't just fix with delays or a special meter that resets every time you walk forward.

>It's a party game
No, it's a sports game. Didn't you read your own image?

>muh soul
shitty buzzword, it absolutely would NOT remove the soul of it and would bring more players to your shitty, archaic game
fighterz did that and it's one of the most popular fgs right now

i heard it started with anime/PC fighting game communities because there's numpads on keyboards, but i dunno for certain

FighterZ also has the depth of a fucking kiddie pool. Boring game to play for an extended period of time.

still has more players right now than gg ever had

>more players equal better game
guess SFV is a fucking masterpiece then.

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it's good, but it's no smash

I mean, have you done a combo in smash? I honestly feel a tekken 10 hit is easier than luigis 0 to death. Smash just has more opportunity to be a neutral game than most fighting games.

many players agree that Jack-O has the least soul out of all Xrd characters, and her inputs are made to be as simple as they can be. only complex things on her list is pressing down twice and doing two quarter circles for the Instant Kill, but the IK is universal for all characters
on a similar note Fantasy Strike is also said to have almost no soul for a similar reason. it is a good game mechanically, but it's not a fun one overall

>fighterz did that and it's one of the most popular fgs right now
It's a Dragon Ball game, of course it's more popular than Guilty Gear.

You would then lose the ability to use the move as a reversal or in combos.

Difficulty in execution isn’t a problem. It’s a gate. A gate that if you can’t overcome exempts you from being the best. If you have a problem with sucking at video games then play a different game. Dumbing down fighting games is the absolute worst decision for the health of competition in the long run

start it earlier dumbass

So you don't mean delay as in extra startup time, you mena just an arbitrary artificial delay between the input registering and the move coming out? Why? That would just make everything extremely awkward, like playing with built-in lag.

you're right

to compensate for the nonexistent input

which is no FIFA

I've hear people just say "Quarter-Circle. Back. Forward."

now you can't buffer

???

You're kind of a block head. GG is already very popular.

two dozen buttons. inefficient
632146 is only 6 button. very efficient
the flair-full description showcasing how much soul the input has is also efficient because it deals big damage and a knockdown letting you setup a okizeme punchline

steamcharts.com/app/520440
>1300
yikes

with the delay in-built into the move you can't buffer it as part of a combo like you would with a z-motion
motions being a balance tool is not a meme

just find different combos lol

Input buffering. As in doing the motion for a move but then not pressing the button either because the move ended up not being needed or as part of mind games. Moment 37 (the most iconic fighting game video ever) literally wouldn't have happened if Chun-Li didn't have to do two quarter circles to do her super

Here's something I actually hate, Links. Basically tight timing based combos that only work at specific intervals. Basically SF4 and onward. It's so stupid to me when compared to every other fighter.

>Steam charts for a game people mainly play on PS4
user what are you doing?

>SF4 invented links

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I'm not saying that at all. That's when I noticed them.

Bruh I've religiously played 4 series competitively
>Smash
>SF
>GG
>Melty Blood

Like that's it. I gave up MvC after 2. And never liked MK. I'm only counting 2D fighters btw.

Ken and Ryu are literally in Smash and people can do true inputs for Hadouken and Shoryuken just fine. SF inputs are easy in a vacuum, it's the insane timing and god forbid microdashes that are required for some combos that's cancer.

If SmashFags werent babies, I'd play them with a stick.

imagine being scared of going online wouldn't that be funny
at least trainingboaring is fun

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Yes. Having to follow your opponent's DI and make a decision on the fly as to what attack is best for the current situation in the creation of a "string" is SIGNIFICANTLY harder to accomplish than a confirm into a confirm into a guaranteed combo.

Smash is harder than "traditional fighting games." Get over it, sweaty.

>muh combos
fuck off you dumb faggot. combos are easily learned in an hour/while beating arcade/story mode.
the actual main barrier of difficulty for newfags is neutral play and strategy in general.

>kids are not gonna buy a difficult game they can't win any fight or defeat some bosses.
why are you lying?

it's not correct at all
>Is it because of the raw, no hand-holding competitive nature of the game play? I think not. Why? Well because the undisputed best selling genre of video games is Shooting games and the majority of those are competitive, so we cannot say its because the masses can’t stand a little competition.
Okay now how many of those are 1vs1? Fucking none of them. Casuals will play anything when they have a team that can either carry them or that they can bitch about.

Every 1vs1 genre that isn't heavily RNG based is "dead". 1vs1 Arena shooters are even more dead than fighting games are.

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Are you arguing that past (and I'll be generous) 40% is difficult to read a DI?! You are insane. It doesnt matter where you DI because your general recovery area is pretty obvious. Stop lying.

who the fuck plays arcade/storymode in a fighter? you dumb cucking ass nigger

I'm not talking about veterans you dumb fuck.
newfags can play it for the first time and use that time to find their fav character and learn their moveset&playstyle

>he doesnt care about the sweat and cool GG story
That's your lost. That game is insane.

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newfags are fucking brain dead as fuck and want everything handed to them without thinking .

They already tried it with Rising Thunder. You just get spergs like this.
youtube.com/watch?v=w0WetHkYVtw

it's a very simple argument

>we should make fighting games easier
No.
>enjoy your dead genre then
The genre isn't dying.

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>some shitty weeb wallpaper
>goes back to wow
EVERY
SINGLE
TIME

WOAH when did Giorno teach Ryu his signature move

How's the new Samurai Showdown game anyway?

It's fun
twitter.com/Plytus/status/1170327162127302657

Latest balance patch made pretty much every character viable, and I'm surprised that I still get matches so quickly. I'd like better netcode and better lobbies though. Apart that it is samsho at the core, neutral heavy game where you can play aggressively if you consistently make good reads.

ill probably get it for my Switch

reminder that a dog can do basic inputs

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>better execution than 90% of Yea Forums

Box art is a step up desu

I think the whole input argument is so pointless, really it just comes across as I didn't even want to try. When really what tends to be hard is the timing of stuff, getting down the links in a combo has always been more of a challenge than inputs. Which is why I always find the smash is easier argument silly, combos in smash are often a pain in the ass never mind all the crazy tech you need to learn for high level play.

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Fucking what

Im not the user you've been talking too but this has to be bait please tell me you arent this retarded

...

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>combos are easily learned in an hour/while beating arcade/story mode
Oh yes, that's why every single combo is known for a character a few hours after release. Thousands of pros take quite a while to discover all the various combos that are possible and then take more time seeing which ones are best.
If you think you can learn all of a characters combos down to muscle memory in a few hours you're lying or you just playing some very simplified games.

>after release
>Thousands of pros take quite a while to discover all the various combos that are possible and then take more time seeing which ones are best
for fucks sake did you even bother reading who i replied to, or what I posted afterward?
I'm talking about newfags that get into a popular fighting game, not veterans.
>you can learn all of a characters combos down to muscle memory
of course I'm not saying all of them but a few basic ones are doable and are more than enough for newfags.

Learning a few "basic combos" is nowhere near enough to actually play the game properly. To actually get the depth from a fighting game you need to at least know the combos for every popular character(so you know the timings for blocks and reversals) and have most of your own character's combos down to muscle memory.
It's impossible to really have fun with a fighting game without that. And that really turns off normies becuase it usually requires at least ~5-10 hours in practice modes and reading wikis for combo lists. Way more if you want to actually get good.

In Tekken most of the inputs are just a single direction + a button, just like Smash.

>Learning a few "basic combos" is nowhere near enough to actually play the game properly
well duh that was my entire fucking argument you goddamn moron. the point being that the main challenge for newfags is not learning combos but learning how to apply them

I want a fighting game that uses DMC-style inputs. Mostly that’s why I like Smash, it plays like an action-adventure-platformer game but it’s PvP.

But it's not. Learning all the combos still takes like 10 hours. That's before you can even start learning how to apply them and how to actually play the game.

I really hope you're kidding.

don't come back pleb

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btfo

but smash isn't a fighting game

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>7 hours later
>Yea Forums still made
HOES MAD (x24)

it's an unpopular opinion but i prefer smash cause it's an even playing field.

All the moves in smash are intuitive and easy to remember. Then the rest is strategy.

In most others it takes a long time before you can remember each characters button combinations, and inputing the combinations is a skill on it's own

>In most others it takes a long time before you can remember each characters button combination
If it's not tekken then you learn it in a couple of minutes since most of them are shit like Down, then forward + button, same shit but backwards and with a kick, two times or with two buttons for the super. Once you learned the overall logic of it (which is pretty simple) it becomes almost immediate.
People truly exaggerate and cherry pick how hard most of this combinations actually are, specially nowadays with how many fighting games have easier inputs than ever.
What's an actual challenge is learning when to use said moves. You'll be surprised at the amount of idiots I've seen both in traditional fighters and smash who look at moves like a hurricane kick or anything that's not a projectile/up specials and never know what to do with them. As stated earlier, execution is usually an excuse because the player is getting his ass kicked for other reasons.

Uh but until ultimate, melee, which is still considered tournament standard, was known for being one of the most execution heavy games in the circulation. Melee is actually a game that hurts your hands. Also, even in ultimate, there are cancels, fairly well planned fighting mechanics, deliberate frame data, etc. smash is different than traditional fighters but it’s analyzed and consumed by a community just like a fighting game. The barrier to entry is still there...

My reading comprehension is fine. You are mentally handicapped. Games are not one series of independent decisions after another. You're not picking five moves on four spaces at a time, there's a massive amount of emergent complexity from the chain of decisions that you can make. In chess there is an input constraint. Two opponents take turns making one move at a time. There are a massive amount of moves at their disposal and complex scenarios that can be forced off of even the simplest move. But there are hard constraints to how many positions are possible and it is an accepted principle in chess that in every scenario one position is stronger than another. In a fighting game two opponents can move and react to one another in realtime with many different options at any given time. This creates an exponential amount more mathematical complexity and these kinds of games are inherently much much harder to solve for the optimal string of moves in every matchup. Because of this uncertainty players must dedicate a lot more of their mental energy to reading the psychology of their opponent to select the best move. This is also a feature of chess but at it's highest level both parties are playing with a much more certain understanding of what the best move is in each position. So I think it's complete bullshit that you want to write off fighting games with your simplistic barely supported argument. You seem to understand the basic thrust of my argument but you are so mentally handicapped by either willful bullshitting or a ridiculous preconception of the factors that make a game complex. To believe what you believe you have to be unable to comprehend basic math because that's what this comes down to. The separation that you think exists between using memory to call on your muscle memory on the fly in a million situations and calling upon a strong chess move is not that meaningful. Both are someone testing their ability in tactics and strategy under pressure

I don't understand this image.

Who did you lose to in Street Fighter 2?

Based and should be the thread ender.

Absolutely

No....

Fighting The Curve: How Complicated Controls Hold Back the Fighting Genre

dualshockers.com/fighting-the-curve-how-complicated-controls-hold-back-the-fighting-genre/

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There is this important article about this thread theme

Who's mad? You are mad.

Who's mad? Hoes mad.

No, in Smash you don't have to memorize any combination. Other fighting games you need to. Smash is easier and better.