Ludo narritive dissonence general

youtube.com/watch?v=MvJPKOLDSos

red dead redemption needs more rpg elements
TRUE rpg elements

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sleeping dogs you can steal cars, shove the driver in the trunk then drive it into the ocean. But you play as an undercover cop who is against killing random civilians.

Not sure if it counts, but In the Witcher 3 you can enter a relationship with Yennefer, then when you are to meet her at krippled kates "brothel" you can instead pick up an escort 5m away from her, fuck her come back, hire her again, rinse and repeat ad nauseum and Yenn does not care. But if you say you love Tris once she has an aneurysm.

Most often ludonarrative dissonance doesn't really affect me. In games like GTA or so on where you basically know you're playing a blood hungry killer killing hundreds upon hundreds of people doesn't take me out of it, it just makes it feel like a game.

Now a game where I do feel like ludo narrative dissonance is the strongest is Watch Dogs 2. For those of you who haven't played it, it's pretty much a story about hackers on steroids who don't really feel like blood hugry killers, but rather people who are worried about big corporations and sticking it up to the man. Every single mission you get can be cleared with stealth, drones and your stun gun without killing anybody. Yet the game does feel like it's pushing you towards 3D printing ARs and mowing down waves after waves of cops and then blowing up as many cop cars as you can as you run away. The tacked on online doesn't help at all, once I was infiltrating a compound in freeroam when some other dude joined the session, ran in the compound and just started killing everybody discriminately. The guards stopped caring about me and just rushed the guy. After I left the compound I see the dude just blasting away at a dead cop. The game with its upbeatness and good vibes shouldn't have had violence like that for no reason, there is legitimately no reason why the MC would want to kill any policemen who are just doing their work.

>sleeping dogs you can steal cars, shove the driver in the trunk then drive it into the ocean. But you play as an undercover cop who is against killing random civilians.
>Not sure if it counts, but In the Witcher 3 you can enter a relationship with Yennefer, then when you are to meet her at krippled kates "brothel" you can instead pick up an escort 5m away from her, fuck her come back, hire her again, rinse and repeat ad nauseum and Yenn does not care. But if you say you love Tris once she has an aneurysm.
yes it counts

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But doesn't the option to do that make it more impactful when you choose not to?
I like the option to do things I don't want to, because it makes my playstyle feel like agency, because there are other paths I might take but I've decided mine is best.

Basically every MMO where you're "the chosen one", along with every other player in the game. This shit reeks of writers thinking players are incapable of enjoying a story where they aren't a unique special boy, instead of the random mook that they actually are in a server with thousands of players.

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this is one that actually bothers me instead of being quirky. Being just some warrior/hunter/whatever like everyone else makes the world feel more real.
not him. But I always have to do the most efficient method possible because autism. If the story reflected it, it would be better. Like the MC and NPCs actually react differently to gunning down a based v.s. stealth non lethal.

From a gameplay standpoint yes. Storywise, not so much. Nobody reacts at all to you gunning down people en masse, yet everybody keeps acting like you're good guys. I'm not saying Ubi is wrong to have put in the option to do whatever you want, in fact I think it's one of the games greatest strengths. Put it just makes no sense given the context.

Gameplay isn't meant to be a literal representation of the story.

what games let me spin around like a retard/roll around during serious cutscenes/ sad moments?

Hence "ludo narrative dissonance". Why shouldn't gameplay aim to be as close as possible? Why shouldn't the story change to react to the player's choices?

True, but the problem comes from plot-heavy games that don’t try to take the gameplay into account when making a story. It’s not a game-ruining thing but it’s like the equivalent of a plot hole in a movie

So let me ask this:

What games are there that DON'T have ludo-narrative dissonance? Where the actions that happen in uncontrollable situations reflect what can be done in controllable situations and such

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Mask of betrayer is generally not an offender, everyone with half a brain recognize that main character can wipe floor with them if he wants to.
But there is that village of inherently evil human-eating little monsters, and somehow killing their offsprings is considered extremely evil, you get alignment hit and your companions will bitch that you are evil child molester.

I think you understood Watch_Dogs 2 differently than intended. It's basically Antifa-lite the game.

Games that don't really focus on story of course. Games that keep track whether or not you kill people and others react to your doings like Deus Ex or Dishonored.

>ludo narrative dissonance
From what you describe in your post this seems like a needlessly complicated name for bad writing.

Have you played the game? I know plenty of people here keep screaming "ANTIFA MURDER SIMULATOR" but there isn't really anything like that. Marcus doesn't want to kill anyone nor does anybody else, the games themes are about freedom of speech, privacy and invidual freedom. Just because there are multiple skin colors and trannies accurate representation of SanFran doesn't mean it's antifa.

But is it possible to have a game that focuses on story but ALSO makes sure that it doesn't have ludo-narrative dissonance? I'd imagine it's possible, if very hard to accomplish

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You're missing the point. It just means the gameplay conflicts with the story. For example, the player has to kill hundreds of enemies to progress through the level, but at the end of the level there is a cut scene where you watch your character have the opportunity to kill the main villain who plans blow up the world, but your character doesn't do it and says it's because killing isn't right. The story says your character has a problem with killing people but the game demands that you kill hundreds just to progress.

New Vegas is generally pretty good with this, but you can still do stupid shit like strip naked in front of Caesar and nobody gives a shit.
Games like the side scroller Mario games are very ludo-narrative consistent because the narrative is so minimal it's hard for gameplay to affect it.

I did indeed play it. Despite me being politically against the themes in the story, it's actually one of my favourite games from that year. It's not a murder simulator per se, but it doesn't dissuade you from taking the warpath option like you seem to have gotten from it.

For reference, my playthrough was as weaponless as possible. Prefering to use the hacks as distractions and the yoyo to KO guards. My main strategy when infiltrating a place was to start a gang fight as a distraction.

I think the only part of the game I had to use firearms was in that apartment complex, but I don't see that as being out of character for Marcus as anyone would probably shoot their way out at those odds.

Of course. Just make a walking simulator or a puzzle game or a game that doesn't have combat.

Now as a real answer it's possible, but I don't think it'd make a very good game. You col only have couple enemies go up against you since after 10 people are dead or so most other enemies should run away rather than fight to death.

Goombas and Koopas being intelligent and talking, and Mario being friends with them in Mario RPGs.

ludo-narrative dissonance is subset of bad writing, it specifically calls out situations where the written dialog directly contradicts the actions or events of the story.

>Gameplay isn't meant to be a literal representation of the story.
womp womp

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Better idea: examples of Ludo narrative synergy!

I present you with Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter, where the D-meter sitting in the corner of the screen, constantly, slowly, ticking upwards toward you death helps put the player in the same tense and uncertain race against the clock that the characters face as they try to get Nina out of the bunker.

not really. has nothing to do with quality of writing. If basically just means disconnect between story and gameplay. For example if you have full control of a character during cutscenes it is not "bad writing" that you can spin around in circles and dolphin dive during a funeral or something.

Ludo-narrative dissonance is dumb bullshit made for the kind of jackass who thinks they're deep because they asked or thought about something like "Hey, why does this wolf drop 3 wolf eyes?"

What if you designed a story around gameplay first? What I mean is that you design what you can do in the game first, then design the story around what the player is capable of doing.

For example: You design the game where it's really only feasible for the player to take on 10 enemies at once without being overwhelmed and killed, so you design any uncontrollable situation (cutscenes) with that in mind, so that anything the player can do can happen in uncontrollable situations, but things the player CAN'T do cannot happen.

Like I said, this would be difficult to accomplish

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what? see
I just think it is funny a lot of the time.

>What games are there that DON'T have ludo-narrative dissonance? Where the actions that happen in uncontrollable situations reflect what can be done in controllable situations and such
morrowind
kotor
final fantasy
madden
wii sports
the sims

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Lots of game have that because it's the ultimate problem in videogames. Narrative structure vs Gaming. If you're writing a massively complex story and you also allow players a lot of freedom, you're gonna have that problem.

Let's say you overleveled for the next scene, and you're absolutely mowing down dozens upon dozens of baduys non-stop, without taking much damage....but the story calls for you to get captured, a lot of writers dont want to write scenes that could make sense, like say, the room was a poisoned trap (or if poison immunity is a thing, they pumped C02, making you passout), they often have like 4-5 guards somehow overpowering you.

You've seen this in a lot of games, where you're absolutely beating the fuck out of someone, and then the cutscene kicks in and he's kicking your ass.

I hate that.BUT I also understand it.

MGSV
>Story is about becoming a demon and going all-in, nothing is sacred just for revenge
>Pick up flowers, rescue animals and kids, give better life for thousands of soldiers around the globe, cure and eliminate pandemic and liberate the world from nukes.
STANDING

>Ludo-narrative dissonance is dumb bullshit made for the kind of jackass who thinks they're deep because they asked or thought about something like "Hey, why does this wolf drop 3 wolf eyes?"
you see this
this guy likes talking points
but not talking sense
>stop saying things i dont like, your a retard, boo

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>madden
Madden announcers routinely are the worst offenders in this.

The Wolfenstein games are full of ludo ludo narrative dissonance. They paint the Nazis as the bad guys who are to be killed just because they are bad, but as the game progresses you get the overwhelming feeling that you are nothing more than anarchic terrorists who are mad that they aren't in charge, so they will just destroy everything. You eventually straight up just start committing mass murder against civilians and the game doesn't blink an eye. Ultimately you prove yourself to be, at best, no better than the Nazis, or at worst, to be more heartless and destructive than them.

>The Wolfenstein games are full of ludo ludo narrative dissonance. They paint the Nazis as the bad guys who are to be killed just because they are bad, but as the game progresses you get the overwhelming feeling that you are nothing more than anarchic terrorists who are mad that they aren't in charge, so they will just destroy everything. You eventually straight up just start committing mass murder against civilians and the game doesn't blink an eye. Ultimately you prove yourself to be, at best, no better than the Nazis, or at worst, to be more heartless and destructive than them.
but what about the holocaust ?
you will always be better as long as you dont murder six million civilians

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KOTOR?

I guess you dont remember Calo Nord.

"History is always written by the winners."
-Dan Brown

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In game, they make it clear that the holocaust was kept secret. So only a small minority of individuals can be held responsible for it, the vast majority of people you kill are effectively innocent. You have no idea how they might have reacted if they had known, they may very well have taken up arms against the Nazi regime. But you kill them anyway. You are worse than those you kill, with the exception of the leaders.

That part FFX in you get captured by a tiny handful of soldiers after killing a giant dragon is hilarious.

Yeah, I don't really know what they were going for when they showed all the cool shit the Nazis built and achieved. At the beginning of the game it's pretty straight forward, but by the end I was seriously wondering why the protagonists were bothering, considering there was world peace, no crime, advanced medicine, food and shelter for all, and space travel. Sure, life sucked for about 1% of the population or less, but all the other billions of people were better off.

There's a game in the making titled Sacred Fire that's supposed not to have the said thing

that's a false dichotomy though. You could have all those things and no holocaust.

>You could have all those things and no holocaust.

But user, they did :^)

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If the price to pay for world peace is the holocaust, then 6 million lives are pretty insignificant when put against everyone else on the planet.

nier automata is the best example
every game mechanic can be explained storywise

In the new Deus Ex games you can kill anyone in the hub areas without any consequence as far as I know. There is also a mission in Human Revolution where you have to infiltrate the police station where Jensen used to work. You can kill everyone there too, if you want.

It's really jarring that you can kill all these people and all the while Jensen will complain about how much he hates violence.

yes, bur again, that is a false dichotomy. there is no logical reason world peace stems from the Holocaust.

I'm not saying it stems from that. I'm saying it's a price worth paying to get it.

Silent Hill 2 is one of the worst offenders.

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surprised no one has mentioned a classic one: the world is about to end, everyone is on edge and your party tells you to hurry and kill the big bad, yet you can go back, save your game, sleep at an inn and kill some shit to level up

debatable. But my point is that you wouldn't lose all that stuff just by beating the Nazis.

This has got to be some of the worst bait I have ever seen.

How do you know? According to the game, we did.

>nitros oxide comes to earth thinking he is the best racer in the universe
>a literal mutated retard achieves blue fire on every track he races on and beats oxide's ass so hard he never comes back
Kek

? the game never implies the world would go to the stone age or chaos if you beat the Nazis.

This is the most retarded discussion you can have because 90% of all games suffer from this on a deeper level.

It's ridiculous to even be invested in any sort of tension or suspense in games when every time you die, you can just respawn or restart.
All sense of urgency goes out the window and any sort of semblance of being immersed is completely gone when you realize there is no real punishment for dying.

It's so fucking cringe when games try to convey any sense of tension and make you feel like your character is in a huge dilemma, but in reality they can just die and restart and with new knowledge each time.

The only games that can get by this are permadeath, or ones that have to do with specialized death mechanics.

>you wouldn't lose all that stuff just by beating the Nazis.
Wolfenstein literally implies this though. Like they have the Nazis building bases on the moon and setting up automated mining equipment on Venus and Mars by the 1960s.

The game shows all sorts of stuff under the Nazi regime, that we don't have now. Like their 1960's technology is like 30 years ahead of our 2019 tech.

RE5
>story is of a hero fighting a zombie outbreak trying to find his gf while uncovering human experiments of a virus and a conspiracy
>gameplay is just of some racist shithead walking around Africa killing all the blacks.

Well what else is he gonna kill, they already took car of all the whites themselves

The game implies that we would have cybernetics, anti-gravity tech, and space colonies in the 60s if the nazis had won.

>final fantasy
Weak bait, user.

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as supposed to books, movies or tv shows where they can't convey any sense of tension because the story has to go on and you can't die because there are no restart so the protagonist always just makes it.

see

yes, which is weird. But in the games you are fighting the Nazis AFTER THAT. It's like I am sure the PRC have made some cool tech. But the tech wouldn't magically go away if HK got independce or something.

>nier automata is the best example

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Souls series

>This is the most retarded discussion you can have because 90% of all games suffer from this on a deeper level.
nonsense
in most games you arent allowed to kill civilians for fun

in most rpgs you are only allowed to do what the game tells you to do
i.4cdn.org/v/1567405394116.png
this problem usually arises in open world games

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He's right though. Look at Resident Evil you can get bit multiple times and not turn into a zombie which goes against lore/story scenes showing what happens to characters if they do get bit

your right

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Wrong analogy. The PRC absolutely held China back for decades. We would probably have way better tech had the Nationalist Government won. In this case we have some proof, because the Nationalists were able to outproduce and out-innovate the PRC with only the small island of Taiwan.

The world would totally have been better had the PRC lost to the Nationalists.

>in most rpgs you are only allowed to do what the game tells you to do
The fuck kind of RPGs are you playing? RPGs are literally the exact opposite.

please tell us about yourself, OP
what's your age?
what's your native language?

probably. But they DID achieve a great economic boom after the liberalization of economic policy in the 80s since then they have innovated in many fields. There is no reason to believe died innovations would die with the PRC. If you wamt another example, America is responsible for a lot of innovation. None of that was lost because the south lost the civil war.

Recently had this in Witcher 3 when Geralt is riding the horse in a cutscene all slick like but in the actual gameplay the horse comes to a screeching halt every 12 feet because there were a few pebbles in the way or tries to force you to turn onto a different road that you didn't want to go on. Breath of the Wild made the horse work far better.

>muh reddit reeeeeee
even the menus have a story explanation dumbass

Diegetic menus have existed literal decades before Automata, redditor.

X-Com

You can't say what innovations the south might have been responsible for. Who knows if they might have surged ahead or not. But we do know that the Nazi pace of technological development was extremely rapid during WW2 and it was cut short. Considering they were willing to research things that other countries weren't willing to touch due to moral/religious issues, who's to say we wouldn't have cloning technology, or advanced stemcell treatments by now? Just a couple examples.

My criticism broadly applies to all those too in similar ways sure, never said they didn't.
The difference is that the issue moreso applies to games because the conflict is between the story and the gameplay.

As if when developing game, the story and game are made independently of each other with no disregard for each other instead of being closely tied together.
I understand not all people play games for story, but if you play games for only gameplay, you have no right to shit on story.
Similarly, if you make a game which the focus is 99% about gameplay only, there's no reason you should be putting fake tension or trying to implement deep story components when the two are already exclusive from the outset. It's an insult to the player and shows bad production planning.

The concept of tension CAN apply to books, but it isn't in the same way because books are solely about stories with no gameplay or interactivity. I agree that in most books you can tell that when MC is in a "dilemma" in the middle or beginning of book that usually they're not going to die. But because it's a story only and doesn't have to concern itself with introducing new mechanics or reallocating data, the MC actually can die and the story can still go on.

Good example too

I don't think you read my post user

while the insinuation is moronic. For example look at their attempts at a hydrogen bomb. I again repeat. in the new games BJ is fighting them AFTER THE FACT. we do in fact know what innovations the souther united states was responsible for prior to the civil war and ending slavery. none of those advances dissapeared into the ether.

Dark Souls
Shadow of the Colossus
ICO
The Last Guardian
Fallout 1
Morrowind
Planescape: Torment
Thief I/II

The key element that all these games is share is that they seldom take control away from the player. Which is how all games should be.

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Saints Row is exactly that, at least they could have done this in an humourous way like everythine else but instead it falls straight into it.
I'm playing an almost godlike being that knows they are powerful, why do they keep running away when three faggot with a peashooter start shooting at them?

Elder Scrolls are pretty terrible at it though, you could be a huge fuck off magic swordsman zipping around at infinite speed and hold enough power to kill or love anybody you desire with but a thought, and then a shitty bandit with an iron axe is gonna still try to pick a fight with you.

Nice goal post moving from it doesn't have those to it wasn't the first.

I think we are arguing two different things. The game sets the objective of destroying the Nazi regime as good. It also portrays the Nazi regime has having had a mostly good impact on the world. Thus the ludo narrative dissonance. The player is not the good guy in this equation.

>playing JRPG
>wizard guys can do all sorts of elemental spells, like massive fire balls and walls of ice
>have to reach top of a mountain
>party has to go through bullshit maze like dungeon climb to the top when the wizards guy could just magic a giant ice or rock ramp and stroll to the top casually
>same for every single obstacle in the game
Looking at you, Golden Sun.

This is just because games have been casualised to the point of banality, though. Effectively, what you have always worried about is losing time. There is a massive difference between the tension if, when you fail, you spawn back 2 seconds ago on the platform you jumped from, or if you start back at the beginning of the stage or even the start of the game.

These systems have been dismantled over time as games have become longer and gamers are no longer willing to replay even 20 minutes of gameplay to get back to where they were after a game over.

>As if when developing game, the story and game are made independently of each other with no disregard for each other instead of being closely tied together.
not usually the case.
>the MC actually can die and the story can still go on.
Fallout 4, Fatal Frame IV, Danganronpa V3, Nier Automata to some extent. The false protagonist can exist in a game just as easily as a book.

Has anyone noticed that at least 95% of these games are western or attempt to mimic western game design?

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> none of those advances dissapeared into the ether.
No, but if a civilization is progressing at 500% the rate of all other civilizations, if you knock them out, you are preventing developments that they might have brought into the world. In Wolfenstein, the sheer rate of Nazi technological innovation means that the just thing is to actually help them remain in power for as long as possible to get as many innovations as we can before something interrupts it.

>Danganronpa V3
This game, and series to a larger extent has huge writing problems so I wouldn't use this one as an example

I'm not referring to false protagonist though.

What? It's literally the opposite.

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>please tell us about yourself, OP
>what's your age?
>what's your native language?
26
English

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Now, tell us your favorite game.

Can someone define Ludo for me?
I was unironically just thinking about it before I saw this thread.

Portal series, when you do something stupid or take very long it gets recognized.

>I think we are arguing two different things. The game sets the objective of destroying the Nazi regime as good.
>It also portrays the Nazi regime has having had a mostly good impact on the world.
These two are not mutually exclusive. again, if you destroy the nazis it doesn't magically undo the good. Just stops the bad.
>Thus the ludo narrative dissonance. The player is not the good guy in this equation.
that is not what ludo narrative dissonance is. It is about a disconnect between story and gameplay. Not about antiheros, ethical ambiguity or anything of that nature. It would be more if BJ said he loved nazis and would never kill one, right after you spent 20 minutes gunning down and torturing 20 of them. But BJ hares nazis and wants to kill them. Then the gameplay is BJ killing nazis
there is no logical reason why you couldn't keep using their secret recipe for insane technological growth. Much in the same way China is strongly opposed to many western cultural practises. But burrows a lot of economic models from them.

Latin for 'I play'.

Doki Doki Literature Club of course.

>tfw glados has to bail you out because you got yourself stuck
haha whoops

No he means in your list, you went 1, 2, 3, 5.

the story going on for a long time after the MC dies is quite literally false protagonist. If you mean the MC dies at the end, than I can name you 100 more games. I am not asking whether you like DR or not. I am pointing out how dumb your post was.

Cherry picking.

Recently Ancestors Humankind Odyssey
The game gives almost none to optionally absolutely no instruction or direction and the player feels like an idiot that doesn't know how to do anything and you play a dumb ape that has no idea how to do anything so the monkey figures out how to do things like make spears as the player figures out how to make spears both by trial and error a lot and just banging shit together.

>again, if you destroy the nazis it doesn't magically undo the good. Just stops the bad.
It also stops any future good.
> It would be more if BJ said he loved nazis and would never kill one, right after you spent 20 minutes gunning down and torturing 20 of them. But BJ hares nazis and wants to kill them.
You are splitting hairs, BJ talks about how the nazis are bad and then proceeds to behave exactly like they do. They literally say "the nazis are bad because they kill innocent people" then 20 minutes later, you kill thousands of innocent people in a terrorist attack on a super-bridge, or at a technological museum.
>there is no logical reason why you couldn't keep using their secret recipe for insane technological growth.
Unless the secret recipe is, for example, having the will to experiment on humans, but the new regime refuses to do that. Or maybe the new regime is religious and thinks all technology is bad and then all development stops.

Not in the slightest. The vast majority of Japanese games rely on hours upon hours of uninteractive cutscenes to convey their narrative. Games like Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy VII basically popularized movie games. Obviously, you have exceptions, like Souls and Team Ico's games, but even then the former takes most of its design inspiration from western games.

all games suffer from "ludo narrative dissonance", be it western or japanese. stop trying to pointlessly start shit needlessly.

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yes. Japanese games tend to have less open game design (not good or bad) leading to less of it.

Uncharted is one of the worst offenders with Nathan Drake supposedly being an Average Joe good guy adventurer when in reality he is a sociopath who invades foreign nations and slaughters their soldiers by the thousands. But its based off Indiana Jones and he killed a million people while still somehow being a good guy too.

>"The Nazi's weren't actually bad!"

...

That's not game-narrative disonance. That's the protagonist being hypocritical and all-around shitty writting.

Not that other user btw.

>Not in the slightest.
Yes it is. Show more examples then. This thread alone is proving you wrong with the number of examples.

.
>It also stops any future good.
reality has shown this is never the case.

>You are splitting hairs, BJ talks about how the nazis are bad and then proceeds to behave exactly like they do. They literally say "the nazis are bad because they kill innocent people" then 20 minutes later, you kill thousands of innocent people in a terrorist attack on a super-bridge, or at a technological museum.
Yes, this is entirely in character for BJ, and the story is actively trying to portray this. BJ is not portrayed as some pacifist, mary sue, or "can do no wrong," type. This is not a disconnect between gameplay and story. Simply something you don't like about BJ as a character.
>Unless the secret recipe is, for example, having the will to experiment on humans, but the new regime refuses to do that. Or maybe the new regime is religious and thinks all technology is bad and then all development stops.
Now you are just reading into it to much and rationalizing. the whole thing with Nazis being more advanced is silly. Man in the high castle is more realistic. But if you can suspend disbelief that the nazis would have all this innovation you can also believe it wouldn't die with them. especially when history has also shown human experimentation doesn't help. Nor does history imply all governments must exist in some binary between either nazis or a religious theocracy. with no other option.

>Has anyone noticed that at least 95% of these games are western or attempt to mimic western game design?
fallout new vegas

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>Show more examples then.
Every JRPG ever made.

>missing the point this hard just to make a dumb retort
Cmon

>all games suffer from "ludo narrative dissonance", be it western or japanese. stop trying to pointlessly start shit needlessly.

super mario bros had no ludodisonence

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>reality has shown this is never the case.
Uh if there's a really smart inventor, who happens to be an asshole, if you kill him for being an asshole, he will no long be able to invent things.
>Now you are just reading into it to much and rationalizing. the whole thing with Nazis being more advanced is silly. Man in the high castle is more realistic. But if you can suspend disbelief that the nazis would have all this innovation you can also believe it wouldn't die with them. especially when history has also shown human experimentation doesn't help. Nor does history imply all governments must exist in some binary between either nazis or a religious theocracy. with no other option.
At that point, you would be better off trying to peacefully reform the regime from the inside instead of destroying it outright. You are just causing untold chaos and suffering for no particular reason.

Hold on is ludonarrative dissonance just people going they don't like stories in games? Cause 99% of the examples of games that avoid it are just games without stories.

and what if one is a jews
>trying to peacefully reform it.
Lincoln couldn't even "peacefully reform" Murrica
>for no particular reason
yeah Nazis are all sunshine and rainbows.

Yawn. Here's your last (You) from me.

>is ludonarrative dissonance just people going they don't like stories in games
No.

no. read the thread. It has been explained like 5 times. It is the disconnect between story and gameplay. E.g. the disconnect between Wei Shen in cutscenes. V.S. me going on murdering sprees with people locked in my trunk as wei shen.

Well then people here are doing a bad job of providing examples of games that don't have it.

>Hold on is ludonarrative dissonance just people going they don't like stories in games?
Ludology is game. Ludonarrative is the term used for game narrative. Ludonarrative Dissonance is when the narrative told by the story doesn't match up with the story told by the gameplay.

Example:
>RPG character beats 2000 enemies without breaking a sweat just getting inside the castle
>Cutscene happens where 4 dudes and a general surround the character, and he is taken and imprisoned because it would be impossible to "fight back".

Uncharted is one of the most blatant cases of ludonarrative dissonance

so
nobody gonna mention undertale huh

Kiryu never killed a person because Yakuza ain't people, next

Cope.

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You say "have some faith" when it comes to tech development, but we can't "have some faith" when it comes to reform. Nice double-standard.

>>RPG character beats 2000 enemies without breaking a sweat just getting inside the castle
>>Cutscene happens where 4 dudes and a general surround the character, and he is taken and imprisoned because it would be impossible to "fight back".
This is your example of a game that avoids ludonarrative dissonance? That's terrible. In fact that sounds like a huge example of a game having it.

And for the west
Every shooter ever made

>This is your example of a game that avoids ludonarrative dissonance?
How on Earth did you get that from the description? I am genuinely curious where I fucked up so bad that you took it the literal exact opposite way it was intended to be.

Based.

Dota 2 is chok full of ludo dissonance
>literal cosmic god is leashed and immobilized by redneck on a bird
>manlet with a rifle is capable to shoot greek gods to death
>old senile fart with guns on a plane obliterates elder titan, one of the mpst powerful entities in-universe

well the texh advancements of nazi Germany were just silly shit for the narrative.
But their stance against opposition is real. BJ supposed to exercise his right to peaceful assembly or run for fuhrer? I mean they could make future nazis a democratic regime based on free expression. But that would be a shit game.

Quite the opposite. The story's only purpose in FPS is to contextualize the shooting and FPS pretty much never take control away from the player.

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Well I asked for examples of games that avoid ludonarrative dissonance and that was the example you replied with. I think that is a terrible example and thus told you so.

Dragon Quest and it's clones have your character literally die at 0 HP, and then they do not participate in conversations.

Hey man, you said Man in the High castle was more realistic. They go for the reform angle there.

The only real ludonarrative dissonance in that series is why a small American town, that doesn't have either a gun store or a shooting range, has ammunition literally everywhere.

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>Well I asked for examples of games that avoid ludonarrative dissonance
I didn't respond to that part of the post though. That's why I quoted just the relevant statement so I could explain it to you. I wasn't actually interested in the rest of your post.

i meant more realistic depiction of if nazis win. But point taken. Only difference is Man in the high castle would be a boring game.

>mowing down hundreds of people
>narrative still has enemies think they can take you
Yeah no. This was literally already covered in the OP. Ludonarrative dissonance right there.

And Dragon Quest was directly inspired by WRPGs, such as Wizardry and Ultima.

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user I think it's time for bed.

Maybe take your ADHD meds and learn to read the full post before replying next time dumb zoomer.

kotor 1 has no big inconsistencies (excluding fully upgraded vibroblade being better than fully upgraded lightsaber), but kotor 2 is really shitty to greysiders, despite the fact game's overall tone and characters reflect disdain to dogmatic jedi and crazy sith; being really light- or darksided is exclusivel beneficial:
more charater interactions because party members are swayed to/from your alignment
there is no neutral ending
access to flashback cave is locked to greysiders
prestige classes are locked to greysiders
meeting with the jedi council can only be resolved by surrendering/slaughtering and getting appropriate light/dark power
you can't even defend it with kotor 2 being released too early, since ending and council meeting are so important to the story

Geralt and Yennefer unironically have an on again off again open relationship and they've both fucked plenty of other people. But saying you actually love someone would get her mad because that's different from just banging some skank you never see again.

Wrong.

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While what you're saying is true, it's also a moot point because Wizardry and Ultima have a combined story that could fit into a Yea Forums post, thus not being capable of really creating it. If you want to discuss Western RPGs that do this though, you can start with D&D itself, where the game states it takes the characters 10 minutes to move 60' feet down a corridor.

I like it when games do the reverse of this and not only have lore explanations for gameplay mechanics but also have the story influence those mechanics.

I see them run from an explosion not you. Are you saying at that point in the game all enemies flee from you for the rest of the game? Cause if they don't you still have the ludonarrative dissonance. I'm starting to suspect you don't actually care about ludonarrative dissonance and just want to create some sort of east vs west cherry picking argument.

>Maybe take your ADHD meds and learn to read the full post before replying next time dumb zoomer.
What made you think I didn't read your post? I just wasn't interested in answering it, so I only quoted the relevant part. Why are you becoming so hostile and embarrassed over this?

You don't say

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>hostile
Woah I didn't realize this was your safe space and needed to be nice to you. I am super duper sorry if I was too mean and hurt your feelings.

Blood is pure ludo.

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see but I feel like if you are supposed to meet Yen in a brothel, then you pick up a hooker right in front of her, go upstairs and fuck, come back down and hire her again, rinse and repeat for like 10 hours. Yenn would react differently then just "sup geralt heres the guy were meeting" Also she has been mad about Geralt just banging Triss and this is like right after their romantic moment.

Third-party here, looking at the webm, I don't even really see them as "running away". They look like they're just running, possibly towards the player because it looks like one of those Doom clones with the retarded running.

Do you think you're making me mad or something?

Name three (3) games that do this.

Basically all Yoko Taro games.

>Player is capable of killing some of the most powerful beings in the world
>Player is incapable of climbing up a three foot pile of rubble
Threw the game in the trash at that exact moment.

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>guy with explosives and automatic weapons
>enemies charge at you with an ax
That is indeed some pure great ludo in the webm there. But it does have a clear ludo-narrative dissonance which was the point of discussion. Blood very clearly leans to favoring the ludo over the narrative, which is fine.

Star Wars: The Force Unleashed 2
Madden 14
Fable Legends.

Kiryu never killed anyo-
youtube.com/watch?v=UMKzWB3sDFc

Lobotomy Corportaion.
Pausing, restarting and loading the game is part of the lore explained with time manipulation technology. There are a few "bosses" that take away your ability to pause.

metroid other m

This.

Souls is the well-known counterexample. The gameplay reflects aspect of hollowing, loss of humanity, immortals doing the same shit over and over again losing their sanity while banging head against the boss.
(It's also an example that explains how ludonarrative refers to intended, basic gameplay. Every game can be broken or mastered to the point where you go beyond the intended vision ofc. Souls speedrunning or new game++++ palythroughs ater you memorized every attack pattern and every map obviously don't resonate that well with dark themes)

user those are dumb monsters.

>Souls is the well-known counterexample.
Actually, it's not, since NPCs don't respawn despite being hollow.

*Undead and even then not all of them. Why would the ones that are go back to the place where some psycho killed them?

What about what this fucker said?

>that are go back to the place
What the FUCK did he mean by this?

Dark souls tries but there's still some dissonance. Certain bosses not being any different after you fight them multiple times is an example.
That's more of a problem in 3 with it's multi-stage boss fights though.

Why would the ones that are(undead) go back to the place where some psycho killed them?

We know they're dead because we get souls when we kill them and we can pick up their items (you can only pick up items from corpses in Souls).

Is pathologic 2 the game with the least ludo narrative dissonance there ever was ?

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> because we get souls when we kill them
I get souls when I beat BP though. And you can pick up items from chests too.

Metafiction is kind of cheating.

>the game with the least ludo narrative dissonance there ever was

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LIMBO and INSIDE don't really suffer from "gameplay and story segregation"

Actually does sonic 3 and knuckles have any ludonarrative dissonance
what about metroid fusion

>And you can pick up items from chests too.
But we pick up the items from their corpse, meaning they're dead.

It just means they dropped an item. Kirk also drops items all 3 times you fight him.

are you disabled?
the point is not about whether enemies behave "realistic", the point is how gameplay reflects the intended tone of the story
oldschool fps have stories that boils down to "guy kills a horde of demons" and that's it, that's the intended tone, there is no real dissonance between that and the gameplay
if the enemies were to represent realistic people with realistic problems and you could sit down with them over a drink and ask them how their wife is doing, you would have a point. but they're fucking demons inacapable of anything but aggression, becasue that's really all context you need

Kirby is painted as a hero by the various games' stories when really he's done more destruction and murder than any of the "villains" he's faced. He once went on a rampage because his shortcake was stolen and beat up everyone he thought might have done it until he found out what really happened. Plus you can straight up kill or eat Bandana Dee in his first real appearance but he still becomes Kirby's friend.

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Devil May Cry
Especially 3,4,5 since you can do everything shown in cut-scenes in normal gameplay.
In fact becoming like cut-scene Dante is kind of a non-forced goal.

why make such beautiful art for such a shitty looking game?

>Win in the gameplay
>Lose in the cutscene

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>Story is about becoming a demon and going all-in, nothing is sacred just for revenge
No it's not, we got shafted.

>the game barely has any narrative at all therefore it has good ludo and narrative cohesion
big brain post right here

>uncharted nathan drake jobs to a fucking nigger sheboon because we're sony, and naughtydog and we gotta pander to our playerbase

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Undertale

>ruins your ludonarrative
fuck the thieves guild in general man, worst ES writing by far
even the main skyrim quest wasn't this shit

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>72% of PS4 players identify as LGBT

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>476396907
HURR DURR DA TOWN IS MAKING HIM STOOPID
Fuck off joseph anderson
youtube.com/watch?v=0lhy9QnBHmo

Why are you guys responding seriously to the literal meme of a person that is WRPG-kun?
boards.fireden.net/v/search/image/oWcREMAeAHPTUfj9RyQMew/

The mechanics are completely disconnected from the narrative. In other rpgs, non-violent conflict resolution is handled through dedicated mechanics like stealth and diplomacy. Undertale just has this completely abstract bullet hell mini game. How does that even make sense?
The twist is supposed to be that monsters are actually peaceful and just afraid of you. But then why do they immediately try to murder you? Why don't they approach you peacefully first and see if they can reason with you? Or at least run away?
Yet at the same time there is a village inhabited by monsters that don't attack you and interact with you peacefully. So why can't the other monsters outside of the village do that?
Why are you denied the pacifist ending for fighting back in self-defense against monsters that try to murder you (and since the game has invisible random encounters, you can't avoid these enemies and you get assaulted by them just by walking around)?

The whole thing falls apart under the slightest scrutiny.

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GTA games are egregious examples of ludo narrative dissonance, jesus.
>playing GTA4 cause everyone was calling it GOTY and another modern masterpiece
>some important cutscene plays where MC kills someone "for the first time" in America
>they really are trying to sell it as an important scene, "IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THIS!", voice actors practically screaming and crying, main writer was probably jacking himself off about how he made a point of not being able to escape your past or some shit
>meanwhile I spent the last 30 mins sniping grandmas from my high rise suite

This. Now that every triple-A studio is trying their best to rip off movies/TV shows, it really stands out. No one cares about Mario stomping on goombas.

Technically none of that is ludonarrative dissonance, at least not as it’s defined in the original essay. What you’re referring to is player/character dissonance. Ludonarrative dissonance specifically comes up when the game presents you with ludonarrative choices (ie in Bioshock, do you choose to act in Randian self interest, or do you choose to be selfless) and completely betrays those choices in the end and rails you into a specific narrative you had no choice over (a man chooses a slave obeys etc).

Player/character dissonance applies in your examples, where you as the player are empowered by the games mechanics to do things that conflict with the player character’s personality in the strict narrative of the game. So that covers shit like Nathan Drake being able to tak a million bullets and be totally fine in the actual game, yet in cutscenes takes one bullet and nearly dies. Or your character taking the reigns and making a decision you would never make. In that case you’re being disconnected from the player character, not necessarily the ludonarrative.

boards.fireden.net/v/search/image/pzGFdBGWSCJUFmJU0x_SOw/
He literally spends all day every day spamming his infographs and arguing with people.

This but unironically.

>trying their best to rip off movies/TV shows
Games have been doing this since the 90s. See: every Metal Gear Solid game.

that is why Trevor works so well as a GTA protagonist imo, his history already is basicly that of a free roaming GTA character

the same way aircraft carrier is just a needlessly complicated name for a ship

1. This point is literally just "I dun understand the story or setting".
2. This point just says that this was made by a rich white boy who never seen it coming.
3. This point doesn't understand what ludonarrative dissonance is
4. This point is retarded
5. This point ran aaaalllll the way home to his dilation station to seethe.

Based.

New Vegas is a fucking awful offender on this.
Everyone jerks off on how the strip is this shining city when it's three casino's and four shacks.
Don't you Engine Limitations @ me

boards.fireden.net/v/search/image/qGVfDOmQBtHml6-Oibd4ZA/
Don't respond to WRPG-kun. He is mentally ill and thrives on arguments.
>150 results for just one game.

You don't understand what ludonarrative dissonance means.

He has a particular embarrassing hatred of Persona 5 and Silent Hill 2
boards.fireden.net/v/search/text/the game takes control away from you and plays a lengthy cutscene/page/1/

boards.fireden.net/v/search/image/Yng01BLK-wPaXF1s45Tj0A/

boards.fireden.net/v/search/image/YkfuvxAVKOBh3mB_BviTYQ/

You are shit at the game.

I'm shit at the gam-

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Thanks for the heads up, user. I'll be sure to ignore him.

How do you feel about FF14, which makes you the chosen one and gives a narrative reason as to why you go off with your own companions "aka your party members" to fight primals and shit. Hell, it even makes up reasons for the Savage/EX versions of fights.

Eye opening isn't it?

Good one.

It's funny, because I particularly dislike Silent Hill 2 myself, but this guy's arguments are so off-kilter and bizarre that I get the urge to reply and defend the game, that's how bad they are.

Skyrim in general was pretty bad with this, like that quest in Markarth where you get sent to jail, you could mow down dozens guards and the game would keep spawning new ones because you HAD to get sent to jail for the quest to work.

Yeah, and you have Geralt do hopscotch across Novigrad with not a single soul reacting to it. At some point there are limitations, the larger the game the more unmanagable it becomes to account for literally everything humanly possible.

Play Station? more like Penis Suckers lmao

test

Based.

The funny thing is that everything you just said has an actual in-universe explanation, but of course you wouldn't know that if your knowledge about the game does not extend beyond the most surface level memes.

its literally a facist regime that's experiementing on people without consent, wolfenstein isn't fucking deep you ape they want to run the world

ah yes, the inevitable wave of progress that for some reason requires the jack heel boots stepping on others skulls

>story is build arround gameplay
>matches are just another day of work
>universe sets his own silly rules
>even halloween events are fully explained
This means Team Fortress 2 makes perfect connection between story and gameplay?

Yes, TF2 is pure ludonium.

>ah yes, the inevitable wave of progress that for some reason requires the jack heel boots stepping on others skulls
It worked for the British Empire.

Yup and then you have Overwatch which is the exact opposite because the game itself is not canon.

Amusingly, Wolfenstein's setting had the technology needed to achieve all that far before the nazi party was founded. But it was jewish super secret tech, something the goyim wasn't allowed to know of. By killing off the jews, the nazis liberated this tech and made it available to (almost) everyone.

It is a very silly setting.

>Anglo whining about other people trampling on the less fortunate to get ahead
Oh ho ho ho ho.

>someones ancestors did a bad thing
>they should be held accountable for it
Don't forget that literally eveyone on earth had descendants that trampled on others to get ahead.

Undertale.

it's pretty hard to not get those results if they only polled people in san fran

You have to go back.

Valve in general are masters of explaining every little thing.
Even silly shit like anything in portal fits in the supposedly serious half life story

So then stop complaining about the Holocaust and realize you play as a murderous terrorist punishing innocent people.

Also it's funny you think it's still not happening even today. Ever heard of the Middle East?

It's never explained how respawning works nor is it referenced in the comics

He forgot ???? and Profit!

Are you going to be one of those history revisionists that's going to pretend like we didn't have multiple undertake threads up 3 months after release?

It's a decent game. Go fuck yourself.

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Im sure this has probably already been posted, but the absolute worst example is Spec Ops: The Line.
The game wants you so fucking badly to realize that killing bad and you should feel bad.
Every cutscene is practically screaming in your face like an antifa kid that you're such a horrible person and war is terrible and you should question your actions. Then the level starts and you are given literally no alternative to progress except by mowing down everyone call of duty style. The pinnacle is the white phosphorous moment. You literally cant do anything else about it, the game makes you use it and then tells you you're a monster for using it. For fucks sake its so god damn painful revisiting this game because the writing is so hamfisted and up its own ass that it doesnt recognize the embarrasingly obvious hypocrisy inherent in the very fabric of the entire fucking game.
Now I get that their point was to make gamers question their choices in games and critique violent video games as a whole, sort of like what Funny Games did for horror movies.
But even then the hypocrisy is still stunning. If you really hate violent video games that much, then you, the developer, have literally no right to lecture anyone since the core of your game is 100% comprised of everything you want me to feel bad about doing. I didnt fucking do it, YOU did by designing it AND THEN had the fucking nerve to lecture everyone who paid for your product and used it as intended, despite not giving them any choice at all to avoid all its most dramatic moments.
Funny Games worked because Haneke wanted to teach the audience about the pointless nature of horror at the time. But rather than lecturing the audience directly and sternly wagging his finger he actually respects them enough to cleverly break the 4th wall and make the audience realize that they dont actually want what the horror movie industry thinks they want. The Line has none of that respect, and it deseves none.

Imagine being too much of a brainlet for Spec Ops.

enlighten me then.
I didnt realize reddit crossposters were also Spec Ops defenders

Spec Ops is reddit repellent.

>Why are you denied the pacifist ending for fighting back in self-defense against monsters that try to murder you
pac·i·fist noun
someone who opposes war or violence as a means of settling disputes

Medic can dump a bucket of blood and revive the team, Pauling and Heavy's sis.
Motherfucker pretty much got dark powers with his demonic pact. Plus medicine is kinda boggus in the game world, but yeah, they dont explain how they respawn. Only clue its Poker Night when Tycho ask the Heavy about it and he said its just a fuzzy, bad dream (its not like the Medic takes a chunk of your brain so you dont nag about some things)

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While Dragon's Dogma fucks up much of the plot because its just the fucking tutorial area with everthing rush to fuck, the explanation of Pawns, the Great Dragon, the Everfall and the Seneschal its fucking great.
>new game+ Senechal its your old Arisen from the previous save if you play offline or another Arisen from another player if you are playing online

>the game would keep spawning new ones
Wait, did it? I could have sworn I killed a few guards and left, paid of my bounty or used my Thane privileges and the quest just stopped, waiting for me to get sent to jail.

In Arkham knight when you go near someone with your car, it electrocutes them and sends them flying. You never actually run anyone over. Plus all the other tanks and vehicles in the game are unmanned.

HE'S GOT A FISH EYE LENS

You can absolutley manage to manuever the car in such a way that if you go fast enough and turn sharply enough you can slam into someone.

You could argue that since Medic owns the other 8 merc's souls they can literally never die

Another possible explanation is Soldier taking Merasmus' "kill me and come back stronger" pills

That's a good thing tho, they never explain in the lore why they keep respawning, they just do, and they barely aknowledge it in gameplay when they taunt each other.

Its like a lot of Jap games where the loop of their ideology do not see meaningful fruition.
Instead the world just loops as if nothing has happened.
Then again, Dogma also has better writing than most franchises. Arisens are basically God in Training, except it takes quite a while to get strong enough to get anywhere. Most fold because they are meek.

The problem with China is that a bunch of foreign sock puppets can't really unite the nation. Mao might had to kill everyone to set it up, but that also means there isn't any blood left to spill.

China is still a impressive nation because it has survived industrialization. Not a lot of nations can say that. Not even the Ottomans.
And a bunch of liberal neocons won't really be able to unite a nation with a iron grip, and then ignoring the marked forces by out investing them.

Best case for China is that they don't just eat Hong Kong. Its nice to have somewhere that your political refugees can go to, and then just autistically screech.
If they take it over, it will just lead to Diaspora going to Japan or Korea.

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Crash Bandicoot

The only thing thats weird in Undertale is how your SOUL is what you dodge with. Not your body or your flesh.
>But then why do they immediately try to murder you?
Because they don't, at the start at the least. But the game escalates as it goes along, because the giant goat wants 7 souls to break the barrier and start some magical ascension stuff to reach towards the surface.
There is also a lot of monsters that yield if you let them, and you can spare them. Or even run.

Does Cyberpunk actually being Trannypunk count as Ludo Narrative Dissonance?

I hate yt and yt fags so god damn much

>abstract bullet hell minigame
Explained as monster's emitting magic at your soul as a means of interacting. In general, monsters aren't actually attacking you, they are just being huge spergs who don't realist their autism is dangerous to you. Not all monsters are spergs, though.

DMC
95% of monsters don't even know tgat you are human and don't know that they can kill you.
Pacifist ending is a keikaku by flowey to become a god that requiers power of 7 human souls. He can get 6, but cannot defeat you (or can, if you gave up during omega flowey battle), so he decides to use souls of every monster in the underworld to compensate for 7th soul.

Jesus christ can you niggers fuck off back to your containment threads.

That's an illegal forbidden meme you're using that doesnt fit our new Reddit ruleset, ban yourself.

Literally every game "suffers" from this pseudo-intellectual term. It's an inherent "flaw" due to the interactive nature of the medium. What a garbage thread.

Dilate tranny.

FF IX

Explain the ludo narrative dissonance problem in pong or tetris then

Those games don't have a narrative, brainlet.

Caring about ludonarrative dissonance to any serious extent is absolute poison to the medium. Video games by their nature have tensions between interactivity and story telling, since the former is player driven while the latter is a very deliberately built by the creator. To avoid it almost entirely your only options are to sacrifice either the former or the latter. The idea is either to create a narrative so vague and minimal that any actions players can take will fit into its framework, OR limit player interaction to such an extent that they can't do anything that the narrative doesn't approve of. This is obviously trash, you cant make good games or good narratives this way. It's more impotant to normalize certain abstractions and dissonance in the minds of the players, which helps them suspend their disbelief and gives creators more freedom in how they want to approach things. This has already largely been accomplished outside of retards who want to reinvent the wheel, nobody ever complained about Max Payne's gameplay clashing with the narrative for instance. They existed as their own mostly separate entities and as a result both were great and complimented each other.

Best not to say literally every game then. Alright is there ludo narrative dissonance in Crash Team Racing?

Silent Hill 4 maybe?

vampyr
pathologic

Not him but the most obvious example is that you can retry races as much as you want in CTR, Oxide can never win despite the story attempting to build him up as a threat, not to mention there is obviously no urgency. The fact that you dont see these things as dissonant is just the result of you accepting these as inevitable abstractions that come with the territory and suspending your disbelief. Which is what should be done.

When Undertale came out we had CONSTANT THREADS that hit the bump limit. Same thing happened when Deltarune pt1 came out, and it'll happen again when Deltarune pt 2 comes out. They're both great games so stay seething nigger :^)

It's a sequvient reversal of subnarrative communication, it represented the ludo geography perfectly.

I don’t think that’s true. On the designer/developer side the player’s actions can just be limited to only the ones that fit the story, and creative solutions to even common LND problems like “dying multiple times ” are already being used in roguelites.

But I think on the other hand, if a game has LND, it’s not the end of the world, especially if it’s an old game. The uncanniness of the effect alone will likely lead players to avoid the action anyway, and even if they don’t, some elements of LND such as persistent HUD elements and limited movement and skills will always exist. In all but the most aggregious cases, players can still suspend their disbelief at such contrivances because the immersion power of the game is so strong.

cont.
I might add that while normalizing certain abstractions to “make the medicine go down” helps, there’s always some value in “meta-narrative” games like Undertale that give us a chance to re-evaluate the limitations of these abstractions. LND is still a useful thing to think about. For designers it can lead to making games that carry unexpected emotional depth, and for players it can help us derive richer readings from our experiences.

undertale does it's best to combat ludonarratives, but has to relinquish the karmic effect of runs where you dont quite kill enough monsters to get the genocide ending to dialogue variations.

a way to avoid dissonance is to try and separate the ludonarrative elements from metagame elements. the example of red dead redemption 2 could have been "fixed" by changing the onslaught of enemies to ones that have been given a mythical status through the game, like the US army, and ONLY use them for that sequence. they would otherwise be inaccessible. this ties into the overall narrative of reliving old glories but being unable to stand against the changing times, only playing at being revolutionaries etc. once the new and hideously strong US army becomes aware of dutch's gang, it's game over, literally.
sadly, the devs blew their load before this.

undertale, on the other hand, bravely tries to tie every narrative together, and makes a surprisingly good attempt.

btw, thats a good post, (you).

>On the designer/developer side the player’s actions can just be limited to only the ones that fit the story, and creative solutions to even common LND problems like “dying multiple times ” are already being used in roguelites.

Well that's exactly my point though, roguelites can get away with it for the most part because their narratives are very simple mostly being restricted to context and goals, similar to retro games. In that case you can marry gameplay and story fine for the most part, but when you try to create something complex like Max Payne with a deliberately planned out sequence of events and characters that are meant to convey clear themes and have development, with tension to boot, that isn't an option. Hence worrying about LND to any serious extent is limiting

It’s limiting, but limits can still drive creativity. I agree that some dissonance can’t be avoided just by the nature of games, but thinking about LND and attempts to address it usually pay off and make games and games criticism richer. Calling it “poison” is a pretty huge overstatement, lol.

Massacring everyone you possibly can in that game is so much fun.

dark souls is a fantastic example of a rougelite that accepts the ludonarrative. death, rebirth and mindless repetition are all taken into account in the narrative of the story. it even comments on a story-creation level that the player is pretty much becoming a hollow himself, due to mindless repetition of action and losing his original goal.

Is it really a roguelite if there’s no RNG and you don’t restart your file after every run

well, maybe the lightest of rougelites. the only commodity you lose are souls and irl time.

Sure, not trying to get on your case. Genre is a spook anyway.

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Dark Souls is another example of a game that sticks to giving you context (every major event has already happened before you start playing) and a goal without any particular urgency. Still though when it comes to the little NPC side stories, it has plenty of dissonance and has very limited interactions with NPC's that aren't explained in any way by the game's story, among other things

Metroid Fusion is the best example of Ludonarrative cohesion you can ask for.

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Summer can't end soon enough

genre discussion is funny too. its a trap for nitpickers and concern trolls.

>"super mario 64 scared lots of people with a conscious purpose to do so, so its really a platformer/adventure/rpg/collectathon/fighting/horror game."

as a kid I nearly pissed myself in fear hiding from SA-X in those goddamn ducts.

>it’s a role-playing game because you play the role of Link, the Hero of Hyrule

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>Breath of the Wild is a role-playing game because you play the role of Link, the Hero of Hyrule
>DOOM is a role-playing game because you play the role of DOOMguy
>The Witcher 3 is a role-playing game because you play the role of Geralt
>Minesweeper is a role-playing game because you play the role of the dude sweeping mines

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i would argue that it's just literally part of the plot for you to talk to certain NPCs and not others. theres hardly a dissonance between gameplay and narrative if the game determinedly chooses what narrative to give you.

This is always the biggest shitshow, whether or not completely linear JRPGs count as an RPG or not makes people go insane.

If final fantasy games are roleplaying games because you're "playing the role" of the preset characters and have no control over the story whatsoever, then why isn't Halo an RPG where you play the role of Master Chief?

I think the only distinction that doesn't require you to give yourself brain damage bending over backwards is making a clear distinction between games with RPG elements in their gameplay vs their story. But then that requires admitting 90% of JRPGs provide even less narrative control to players than fucking Halo does, where at least you control whether your AI allies survive or not and what order you kill enemies in and there's no possibility of winning in gameplay and losing in a cutscene

Clint Hocking designed Far Cry 2 to avoid this. Pretty successfully too, and he has some good blog posts about it. It is precisely (one of the) problem(s) with Far Cry 3 - Jason 'I'm just an ordinary dude who ain't never held a gun before' starts head-shotting entire camps from the get go.

Far Cry 2

Final Fantasy games aren't roleplaying games because "you're playing the role", they're roleplaying games because they are direct descendants of video game attempts to recreate D&D using its various game systems and mechanics, and they still use many of those same mechanics. RPG is a very stupid genre, the whole "roleplay as" aspect comes from tabletop roleplaying, but it makes no sense for video games.
>b-but [modern game] with stats
Kind of pointless to try and put most modern games into discrete oldschool genres because they are hybrids of many different genres. You determine their genre by what aspect of gameplay is the most emphasized, or come up with new labels.

I just call games JRPGs if they have JRPG combat. WRPGs are the real RPGs but fuck that noise, I think the genealogy of JRPGs is enough to merit the name.

In the new DOOM, in the very few times control gets taken away, all of the Slayer's actions and mannerisms were exactly aligned with what I'd have wanted to do or what I'd been doing in gameplay so far, like when Hayden tells you to carefully disconnect the Argent energy collectors and the marine just stomps the shit out of them - and conversely, when you have to blow up the computer mainframe, but that means destroying the AI that's been helping you the whole time and it's sad cause he was nice, just as he's about to press the big 'DESTROY' button the marine hesitates a second, pulls out a storage card and downloads the AI onto it, then destroys the mainframe. It's about five seconds of cutscene of a hand moving but it immediately reminds you that as well as being a rage-fuelled demon-murdering god of slaughter, the Slayer is actually a good guy and it's also surely what most players would have wanted to do.

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I always liked that bit at the start, where Hayden claims things got out of hand but it'll all for the betterment of mankind, he just looks at a corpse, and you can tell he's immediately past that bullshit for the rest of the game.

This one is funny.
In Silent Hill Homecoming you play as a soldier, so it actually "makes sense" that the main character knows how to use fire arms, including warfare arms.
In the end, the plot twist is that the main character was never a soldier, he was a squizophreniac living in a mental asylum.
They tried to fix this saying that his father, a veteran, taught his son how to fight and use warfare arms. The game also tells you that they never had such a father-son relationship because his father was an asshole.
Fuck you Konami

Mediocre Wizardry clones with lots of cutscenes?

What a bad post

It's completely on point though

There is absolutely no ludo in Skyrim. The thieve's Guild being shit doesn't affect that at all.

>Final Fantasy
No.

>Rescuing Yuna in 10
>Have fought many dudes with guns throughout the game, bullets obviously only shave a bit of HP off you
>All of a sudden a couple soldiers with guns at your neck stop you so Yuna has to save herself